do we ever learn??

[truckiebloke]

im sure this has been covered before, but not all may be aware...

when will we ever learn about flight safety?i speak of the hercs, but this relates to all the other aircrew out there too...

hot climate, poor food, very poor sleep cycles due to the varied waking hours, doubling up of crews in rooms and working long hours with relatively poor inflight catering...

it all seems a bit crazy when you think of the set up that the americans have, and yet, over 2 years on, we are living in tents past their sell by date, without air conditioning and now having to double up in rooms cos there isnt enough accommodation. i believe it will only be a matter of time before an accident occurs that we look back on and ask ' how was that allowed to happen?'

before anyone moans, im not talking about hotels or anything along those lines... just some money being spent to improve facilties and give an element of comfort to guys operating in unpleasant conditions.

dont even get me started on 12 internet terminals and 9 phones between hundreds...

[vecvechookattack]

Im sorry guys...I tired to refrain but the pressure was too much.

12 Internet terminals...???????

9 Phones.....??????

Last ship I served on had 1 Internet terminal and 1 phone between 240. You got yr 10 mins call a week and if your slot just happened to fall at 0300am in the UK then that was it...tuff.

As for having tents with AC....open the flaps..!!

very poor sleep cycles due to the varied waking hours, doubling up of crews in rooms and working long hours with relatively poor inflight catering. They are all management issues which should be sorted by your CO. If your CO isn't sorting it out then tell him.

[KENNYR]

And dont forget the most important member of the crew.....you know......the one who has to spoon feed the aircrew and then change their nappies!! For gods sake, please tell me that your post is a wind-up.

[truckiebloke]

yes, but this isn't a ship is it?space isnt an issue to the same extent. its a major base for operations and yet has not got the facilities that are deserved. to quote from a recent letter by my local mp '' the facilities are the envy of the united states army''... yeah, and there was me not wanting any use of their olympic size swimming pools, fully equipped(and air conditioned) gyms,permanent accommodation. point is, if you are going to be somewhere a long time, then you have to improve the facilities for the guys that are working hard.

open the flaps? obviously you have not been out in 50 degrees, but that doesn't help at all.

the point of the topic was to raise a flight safety issue...

[FORMER PIONEER]

Reading between the lines and getting straight to the heart of the matter, I think the crabs are all upset 'cos they don't have a nice new shiny corporate identity badge to put on their ovies.....:ok:

[FJ2ME]

Can you Navy jokers not see that Truckiebloke is trying to raise a serious point?! I don't give a rat's @rse how many phones/internet terminals you have on a ship- I didn't sign up to serve on a ship.

Its a disgrace that our guys still haven't got any habitable accomodation after 2 years in theatre. And that's before you think of the flight safety aspect.

This govt doesn't give a to$$ for servicemen and women and understands little about how much we have to do with bu99er all resources. Maybe it would take an accident to uncover some of the 'gross negligence' of the government. Oh no, silly me, forgot they'd only cover it up and blame it on crew incompetance.

Truckie, I reckon you'd be better off claiming political asylum. Shiny new house, salary and no work. The elected representatives of the taxpayers obviously think higher of the unemployed and asylum seekers than they do of the people who undertake their poorly thought-out plans for world domination!

[Door Slider]

Yes a serious point being raised here.
However, the conditions at Basrah are not that bad!! The tents are not too bad and the food could be alot worse. As for not having an olympic swimming pool dry your eyes.
The truckie fleet need a reality check, go tasking with SH for a few days then you may elect to keep quiet.
Yes the americans do have alot of cool kit and swimming pools but only at a few bases. Most of the ones I have spent weeks at a time at are far worse! Remember they spend a year there not a few weeks like you truckie chaps

[santiago15]

A true story sadly. I believe when it all began, a couple of years ago, TDA stood for Temporary Domestic Area; it now satnds for Tented Domestic Area. A quick change of title and it's all sorted then?

[Matt Skrossa]

Truckie Bloke, as well as wishing for life's little luxuries have you tried popping down to stores and see if they've got any spare capital letters on the shelves? Or maybe the Shift and the Caps Lock keys are broken on all of your 12 computers?

[FJ2ME]

And maybe you could join him Matt Skrossa and see if stores have got a bucketful of relevant comments you can use, to save you using up your own gems?

[Matt Skrossa]

Shouldn't that be relevant, not relevent?

[Scud-U-Like]

No one should be living in basic tented accommodation at an OOA operational base that has been established for 2 years. It is simply roughing it for the sake of roughting it. This is hardly a new problem in the Middle Eastern theatre. Look how long it took to bring Ali Al Salem Air Base up to a reasonable standard of habitation.

It is too easy to blame the politicians. This is a failure by our commanders. If it is simply a case of them not being given the right resources, then they are failing to explain this to the people on the ground.

As for the 'operational welfare package', it seems to be honoured more in the breach than the observance. If you can't get reasonable access to internet and telephone facilities, the terminals might as well stay in their boxes back in the UK.

[vecvechookattack]

So, as soon as you dislike your living conditions you raise your arm and lpead "flight safety". Please...just do your job and get airborne.

This is not a serious issue. Please, lets leave this thread and ignore its insignificance.

Now, can we get back to the much more relevant issue of the wearing of silly badges.

[Safety_Helmut]

Good post truckiebloke, you have exposed some of the attitudes that have stood in the way in the past and will continue to do so in the future. We've all heard the comments:

"we always do it that way on......."
"You should thank yourself lucky, when I was on xxxxxx, we never even had........."

and then there are the :
"if you couldn't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined up"
"that's life in the old blue suit" type of comments.

They are the attitudes borne by people who don't seem to want to see things improve, or would happily have everything reduced to the lowest common denominator, rather than striving to achieve higher standards. If conditions through absolute necessity are bad, then we should put up with them, but where it is possible to improve the situation, then surely we should do everything possible to do so, particulalry if flight safety is an issue. When I next climb aboard as a passenger, I sincerely hope that the crew (air and ground) are sufficiently rested and in the best frame of mind to do the job.

Safety_Helmut

[lineslime]

What happened to all the nice air conditioned porta kabins that were used in Thumrait? The perfect resting place for air/ground crew.
:confused:

[truckiebloke]

thanks safety helmut. i hoped it might get a few points out. best one so far is

'' just do your job and get airborne''

yeah, next time im flying after a lack of decent sleep and decent food and feeling tired, i'll just get airborne, not worrying about who ive got down the back. but its ok, because in all the flight safety bulletins and reports, things like this never occur do they?

and for door slider... the sh world have always coped under worse conditions than us, and even in basra your crew rest periods are more demanding. (i did say in my first thread it was for all crews in theatre).. but just because you have always done it, it doesn't means its right and that things shoudn't change.

[maxy101]

It would appear that the U.K rewards the people that contribute the least to society with the most. It must be frustrating to be roughing it in the desert in tents while Kosovan asylum seekers are given 800 K townhouses on private estates in Richmond. (Source Sunday Express last week)
I sympathise with the above posters.If asylum seekers were housed in tents in the UK, they would be sueing HM Govt for breaching their human rights.

[Safeware]

I take it Truckies detractors here have never heard of the Flight Safety Chain?

sw

[Talking Radalt]

I sympathise with the underlying sentiment of Truckie's initial post and can only agree whole heartedly with Safety Helmet.
I will (and have) happily live(d) in some utterly crap locations(including some of HM's larger war canoes) and I really don't mind, WHEN THERE'S NO ALTERNATIVE.
Thing is, when it comes to nice shiny badges or bright blue day-sacks bearing corporate logos (which aren't vastly different from the black day sacks we all got for Telic :hmm: ), then there seems to be cash available.
I suspect it's not the reality of living in $hit that bothers folk, but the fact that it's (another thing on a list of many) brought about mostly by poor management, who then compound the frustration further by proclaiming just how far things have improved for those in the aforementioned $hit.

Plus there's always the Grass/Greener effect. Think the Spams are sorted with McDonalds and Pizza Hut?....
1 in 3 men of the US 1st Cav have now been killed or VSI in action since March 2003.

[vecvechookattack]

I remember during GW1, getting shaken at some ungodly hour. I sat on my pit for a few seconds and I was so knackered I wondered..."Am I just getting up or just going to bed?" Sadly I was getting up.

[Duncan Bucket]

Without being too hard nosed about it, if you consider that you are not capable of executing your mission safely due to fatigue, then it is your duty to report it to the a/c commander/authoriser/Squadron hierarchy, not whinge on an anonymous forum about it. If the rules designed to protect you and your crew cover this (which i'll bet they do), then use them, or are you afraid of telling your superiors that they have made an error in judgement? Who knows, maybe they really believe everything is OK at the sharp end. They aren't going to do anything about a pprune thread, but they will surely sit up and take notice if you actually play the Flight safety card.

If the operational tempo is altered because missions are lost due to crew fatigue, then perhaps those that can, will do something about it.

If you are operating within the rules, and still feel this way, either they (the rules) are wrong, or you are!

[truckiebloke]

ah yes, good in theory , however on a recent chat with the hierachy(group captain and above) the answer was given to my moans

'' dont give me that flight safety crap''

scary...

[Tourist]

Well, what you are coming out with now does sound like you are using the flight safety rules to try to justify your unwillingness to suck it up and get on with the job and stop wingeing. The RAF has had it so good for so long that you don't know the standards which the more senior services have always put up and proved to be safely sustainable. Just shows how much fat their still is to be trimmed from the bulging growbag that is the RAF.

This "I cannot fly unless I have slept in a feather bed in perfect silence" is where the whole crew duty RAF b@llocks falls apart. Unless you have regularly flown fatigued during exercises, training etc, how do you know your own limits? And should the first time you get tired be on operations?

Just my humble opinion.

[Talking Radalt]

The RAF crew duty b@llocks pales in to miniscule insignificance alongside some of the b@llocks dreamt up by RN.
What the **** is Red Sea Rig all about and more importantly....why? (Especially when on Ops):rolleyes:

I think Truckie's message is the "Man the f*** up" response is used with increasing ease and frequency when addressing welfare/crew rest/domestic bliss issues.

[Tourist]

It's comfortable, girls love it, and when at the bar you don't smell like crabs in sweaty day-old ovies. What's the problem?:p

Its about time the RAF does, as you so effectively put it, "Man the F@ck up"
I have seen what they think qualifies as field conditions. I landed at some all singing all dancing ex at St Mawgan to go into "field conditions" and was apologised to because "we only have one large screen Sky or DVD tent I'm afraid, sorry. Oh, and some of the tents won't get electricity till tomorrow"

[Talking Radalt]

So when it comes to a good night's kip, a phone call home or receiving a saucy bluey from the girlfriend it's "RAF b@llocks" but when it comes to looking smart in the bar, appealing to the opposite sex and smelling nice it's vital no doubt?
Geez, you guys.... :rolleyes:

[Tourist]

Well, priorities gentlemen..........

[vecvechookattack]

welfare/crew rest/domestic bliss issues Oh For Fcuk's sake...your in the Armed Forces man.....who cares about domestic bliss and crew rest.... Just man up and do your duty.

[WorkingHard]

Whilst I have a great sympathy (and perhaps some empathy) for the truckies and the conditions described I have to take issue on one very important point. This was highlighted earlier when it was asked why you did not sort it with your chain of command. Why dont you? Why blame the politicians when in fact it is your own pathetically weak and absolutely crap senior officers that are to blame for your poor and dangerous(?) living conditions. Go to them or is everyone too frightened of messing up their next assessment? Sorry guys but you really have to put your own house in order first. What is the response from your command please?

[ACW418]

This thread appalls me. If the Senior Service do not understand Flight Safety they should not be allowed to fly. Clearly those in the RN can go to their bosses and say things that in the RAF are considered LMF (or whatever they call it these days).

Grow up - there is a problem here and typically RAF senior officers do not give a stuff.

ACW

[MightyGem]

ah yes, good in theory , however on a recent chat with the hierachy(group captain and above) the answer was given to my moans,

'' dont give me that flight safety crap''

From a recent issue of Aviate(Defence Aviation FS Mag):

During WW2 RAF and Luftwaffe lost 40-45% of aircraft due to accidents. Soviets 57%. In GW1 33 accidents to 42 combat losses. GW2, 9 accidents, 7shot down

You still need Flight Safety in wartime. Ooops sorry, the war's finished.

[Wotta Dump]

This (C)RAP


Out here in the desert, thousands of miles from home
Spend most my time a day-dreaming, give the man a bone(r)!

Sent here to kill the terrorists by Tony B. Liar
But unlike some previous conflicts, my belly ain’t got D fire.

Will it all soon be done now that it’s rolled into another year
Will I finally get the chance to spend time with those that I hold dear

When we departed ???, we spent many hours on a bus
But despite financial Cut after Cut after Cut, we’re supposed not to fuss


Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet


Lots of other nations provide in-theatre personnel with a Tax Break
But as usual with the UK Government, it’s just Take Take Take

We’re all living in tents either sweating or a-freezing our balls
But you can’t do no proper work if you ain’t got proper tools

If the Military wanted tent material that rustled when it’s windy
Then I can tell you for sure they found one of the top three!

Same old, same old, same old meals
Provided by Contractors on ‘Fantastic Deals’


Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet


When I was younger, Flight Safety was paramount
These days it seems to get overlooked a fair amount

Tests of the tannoy systems happen every day at 4pm
How’s that compatible with sleeping for night flying then?

Need a good nights sleep from Tamazepam to make this headache go away
But we’re either flying or on Standby, Day after Day after Day

They spray round outside the tents with insecticide many times a week
Is it inhaling this stuff that’s making me feel meek?


Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet


The welfare package should leave me without a care
All I can say to that, is shove it where there’s no air

Get a twenty-minute phone allowance to last me a whole week
Allegedly I’d be better treated if I’d been sentenced by a Beak

Apparently I’m man enough to Die for my Country if need be
But when I’m not on Standby, they decree 2 beers is enough for me

I know it might sound like all I’ve done is bleat
But I’m really looking forward to a toilet with a seat

:zzz:

[Tourist]

ACW418
Train as you fight.
yes there is a higher risk during training.
balanced in my view by the lower risk in ops.
Anyone who has flown a ripple has learned their limits, and is trusted by the FAA to put their hand up when it is reached.
incidentally, the Air Conditioning failing in your tent does not meet the criteria

[Talking Radalt]

Tourist,
Truckie's point is these conditions are brought about largley by penny pinching when funds are clearly squandered elsewhere, and anyone who thinks it professional or manly to take it all on the chin is kidding only one person.

[ACW418]

Tourist

Thanks for your measured response - which is rare on most threads in my experience. What you say has merit except that naval air operations have never lasted for two years in the same theatre without change. Nor have they in the RAF except for Bomber and Coastal Command in WW2.

I think this is actually the issue that was made. In an Air Force that does not allow people to raise legitimate concerns without the threat of being treated as an outcast the fact that quite junior suits can allow the situation to continue is unacceptable. Once again the thing is personality led - given a decent senior officer the whole thing could be sorted fairly quickly. Even Gp Capts have quite large powers when they want to use them.

Too much not wanting to spoil their promotion chances and not enough caring about the troops in their control.

ACW

[lynx pilot]

Jeez, try being on the green side of things. Believe me you are well sorted. Your point is entirely valid and I agree, please remember there are others out here that are in incredibly worse situations regardin logistical support.

[Mad_Mark]

Is it just me, or is anyone else appalled at the amount of infighting and bitching going on between the services in this thread?

For fux-sake guys, this is about flight safety matters that have had plenty of time to be put right. If money can be found for all the niff-naff and triv (new coats, new rucksacks, new history books, etc!) why is it not available for making peoples lives a little better when away from home in a hostile environment?

I DO enjoy a little inter-service banter when it suites, but please guys, pick the appropriate threads on which to do it. Yes, I do feel for the green types for the conditions they often have to endure and the dark-blues for being stuck in a tin can surrounded by H2O, but I have the sense to say that if they have a problem that could be rectified and hasn't then I would support their efforts to get it put right, not accuse them of being whinging to$$ers!

Would you live in a shed when you could easily have a house? Would you drive a French car when you could easily have a real one? Why should we STILL be living in the conditions in which we do in Iraq when we have been there long enough now to have had it sorted?

Now grow up and have a sensible discussion :rolleyes:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[A good headin]

If you place a frog in a pan of warm water he will sit happy and content.

If you turn the heat up too high he will eventually jump out.

I did:hmm:

[Duncan Bucket]

Mad Mark

Hear what you are saying, but is an anonymous forum for rumour and "a little inter service banter", the place where you need the support, or where Flight Safety matters are resolved?

Wether you consider it whinging or not, airing your views on this forum is hardly going to get your long suffering hardships changed is it?

What is requierd it seems is less "its the superiors/politicians fault" and more "no I'm not doing that sortie because of insufficient rest IAW the rules". If your lords and masters are truly so hung up on promotion, they will surely react pretty darn quick to that! The rules are there for your protection.

So why not stick to the rumour, conjecture and banter here, and if something needs changing cos its wrong, use the rules and official channels.

[lynx pilot]

MM, if you took the time to read my post you would have seen that I entirely agree with the original thread. I was merely pointing out that green uns have it even worse...........not to score points, merely to let people know that things aint all rosy elsewhere. I dont care whose Flt Safety is worse, I just would like for us all to be more FS aware, surely you agree with that??

[lineslime]

The reason the porta kabins haven't gone up yet is because we aren't pulling out. If they ever do go up give it 6 months and we will be out of there and off to some other hot spot. So the cycle continues..............
:* :* :*

[PT6ER]

Obviously you guys need to get Tony Blair to buy some shares in Halliburton

Get him to have a chat with Mr. Chaney, he could give some pointers on getting government money flowing into shareholders pockets whilst providing the sharp end guys with some home comforts.

[BTDTGTTShirt]

All
Tuuckiebloke has a very fair point to make.
In my time I have flown or worked with all three services. The trouble with all of them is they have that can do attitude and we all get stuck in and get on with the job. The moans and gripes are still the same as they were 25 years ago when I first started flying. However, now we have this modern medium of pooters and prune on which to air our moans. And it’s not just the flyers who have justified moan. Menders, benders, stackers, scribbles, medics, uncle tom cobley and all, and dare I say it scuffers are all in the same pooh and I don’t think it will ever change because of the way we are.
We had exactly the same in the Falklands war and its immediate aftermath. I remember going ashore and living in a sheep shed. Half a bloody squadron there and nobody had even thought to include us on the ration strength! Then we got kicked out into tents so the sheep could come in for sheering. It took nearly 14 months before we moved into porta cabins at Kelly’s.
The big problem then as it is now is that we aircrew types are doing only a short time there but a very fast and regular rotation. We actually see the conditions getting worse. All the lads and lasses on four or six month stints in Basrah do there stint and then they are safe for at least 24 months. They don’t know any different. To them it is just one crap tour and once done forget about it for a while. The same is true of the execs there. They do there bit agree to change something but are tour ex before it is implemented. Next bloke in has his/her own agenda. Big wheel and groundhogs spring to mind.
The conditions we are living and trying to work in are a flight safety hazard; and I do mean all of us. The trouble is who is going to do something about it. PJHQ say 2 Gp problem; 2 Gp say PJHQ. Both call truckies whingers. We have now lost two aircraft post war and god forbid we lose another. We are all our own worst enemies because we will all press to get a job done even if we are knackered. It takes big balls to stand up to the boss and say no I can’t work on this aircraft or no I’m too F****D to fly. The sooner dome desk jockeys come out of their ivory towers and have a look see what the real world is like the sooner all our detachments will be a safer place.
Rant Over.

[Spotting Bad Guys]

I remember a brief at Marham, sometime in late '02 (I think) where the plans for providing accomodation for extended periods deployed were discussed. I forget exactly who the briefing team were (it may have been STC or perhaps AFBLT) but it was made very clear that the management had decided that 'austere' was the way ahead - despite many vocal, informal and formal protestations from those of us who had conducted & supported ops over Afghanistan from Seeb, Thumrait etc under the deliberately austere Ex Saif Sarreea conditions.

The accom plan as it was laid out to us at the time was that for the first 6-8 months of a UK-only deployment's lifespan, we could expect to be kept in the standard 18' x 18' tents, camp beds, sleeping bags (all of course designed for European ops), washing in a plastic basin, water from stand-pipes etc. After this period, the loggies would be in a position to locally hire/ship in portacabin-type accomodation and the US-style 'cadillac' ablution blocks. From 8 months to 2 years the focus would switch to finding/building permanant accomodation blocks.

Anyone who has deployed with or alongside the US forces knows how easy it is to build a Harvest Falcon tent city, with decent sleeping, eating and ablution facilities, allowing aircrew and ground personnel to get a decent night's sleep and not feel that you are part of some third-world refugee camp.

Clearly, this plan has either been thrown out of the window, or some bright spark decided that to keep people in tents would be cheaper in the long run.:mad:

I'm not saying that there aren't personnel for worse off than us, it's more that just because we can live and operate in sh***y conditions, doesn't mean that we should.

And before the response comes that the accom has not been improved due to the high risk and local threat, personnel from my unit regularly deploy to a predominantly US-operated base in a severely high-risk area much further north, and they live in 2-4 person cabins!

We can do much better than we are doing, and with the amount of time we are all spending deployed, investment in decent accomodation is a must.

Rant off//

SBG

[StopStart]

To be fair the tented set up we have in BSR is actually pretty decent. I'm sorry, I'll amend that, WAS pretty decent. Good showers and ablutions, hard plastic floors and aircon. None of yer old 12 by 12 cobblers. Unfortunately, when I first arrived in BSR late April/May 03 the newly assembled tentage was known as TDA - Temporary Domestic Accomodation. It has subsequently been renamed Tented Domestic Accomodation just so we don't think it's temporary :D Also, chatting with the contractors who were putting it up, the TDA had an expected life of one year before it would need to be taken down and refurbed/swapped for a new one. 2 years and counting.......... The place is just starting to fall apart now.

I have no problem with sleeping in the tents in BSR, in fact I'm such a sad giffer I volunteer for dets there. What does grip my sh*t is what BTDTGTTShirt alluded to - the attitude of the "permanent" staff there. As far as I can tell all the aircrew and aircraft at BSR are a hinderance to the efficient running of the APOD :rolleyes: They seem to have no concept of what we (any of us) us do on a daily basis, despite our best efforts to educate them. Important things at BSR are wearing hats, ironing trousers, Health and Safety at Work and not running in the corridors with scissors. I'm all for military discipline and the wearing of correct uniform etc, what not for is some self obsessed remf telling me or my crew to put our hats on whilst in the wagon after a 14 hour, 5 sector day in upwards of 50degC, operating into some of the most dangerous airfields in the world (not trying to be clever, just stating fact) or some jobsworth telling me I can't have any dinner because I've forgotten my meal card :mad:

The internet access and phones, are, to be honest great. I've never had any problems getting on them and am grateful for the facility. The gyms are pretty decent, food is good and the flying operational and at times rewarding :D ;). What the place needs is to understand that we're not taking the p*ss quoting crew duty regs when we have to. We have very few if any jobsworths and all the crews I know will bend over backwards to get the job done even if it means "stretching" the regs in places. None of us want to be the one that prevents someone getting home on time from their det by delaying a sortie. All the crews work hard under dangerous and, at times, trying conditions. All we ask in return is some understanding from those that "run" the place.

[Charlie Luncher]

If you have access to the Internet does this mean you have access to a CONDOR report, if they still exist. That will by pass all the politics at the career officer level and should get looked at. Watch out for the witch hunt post report but it will be conducted by the snowcaps so you should be ok:ok:
If it is that you are upset your samsonite wheeled case got dusty well I have no sympathy, we don't have a pool either it was health and safety or the PTI was too busy :rolleyes: .
Charlie sends

[StopStart]

I guess the bus ride to the Crowne Plaza pool must be hellish then

:rolleyes:

[mad eng]

Gents,

We must be very careful when throwing in the flight safety card, it is our ace and if used routinely will lead to the retorts already mentioned in this thread and the erosion of it's value. If you have genuine concerns about flight safety then this is not where they need to be aired. There are valid points about the conditions we suffer, in varying degrees, being raised and it is good to share and learn from what others have to say but please, one day you will really need to use the flight safety card, lets hope you haven't worn it out.