Another "N" reg question

[heliheaven]

May I ask your opinions please...

Company (or Individual) "A" owns an "N" reg helicopter

Company (or Individual) "B" wants to use it to go to the races, so arranges to "lease hire" the machine from the owner.

I have an FAA Commercial licence and my own Limited Company - ie I am freelance. Can I legally accept payment from Company "B" to fly these people to the races?

My first inkling would be yes its okay in theory, and probably if it was a flight from / to a private site, I wouldn't be too concerned. However putting my head above the parapet when the moat is full of Flight Ops guys doesn't have the same appeal....

Any thoughts?

[212man]

Do these statements help?

Restriction with respect to carriage for valuable consideration in aircraft registered outside the United Kingdom

113 (1) An aircraft registered in a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom, or in a foreign country, shall not take on board or discharge any passengers or cargo in the
United Kingdom where valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of the carriage of such persons or cargo, except with the permission of the Secretary of State granted under this article to the operator or the charterer of the aircraft or to the
Government of the country in which the aircraft is registered, and in accordance with any conditions to which such permission may be subject unless that aircraft is exercising traffic rights permitted by virtue of Council Regulation 2408/92(a) on access
for Community air carriers to intracommunity air routes (as that Regulation has effect in accordance with the EEA Agreement (b) as amended by the Decision of the EEA
Joint Committee No. 7/94 of 21st March 1994(c).

(2) Without prejudice to article 82 of this Order or of paragraph (1), any breach by a person to whom a permission has been granted under this article of any condition to which
that permission was subject shall constitute a contravention of this article.

Restriction with respect to aerial photography, aerial survey and aerial work in aircraft registered outside the United Kingdom

115 (1) An aircraft registered in a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom, or in a foreign country, shall not fly over the United Kingdom for the purpose of aerial photography or aerial survey (whether or not valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight) or for the purpose of any
other form of aerial work except with the permission of the Secretary of State granted under this article to the operator or the charterer of the aircraft and in accordance with any conditions to which such permission may be subject.

(2) Without prejudice to article 82 of this Order or of paragraph (1), any breach by a person to whom a permission has been granted under this article of any condition to which
that permission was subject shall constitute a contravention of this article.

[heliheaven]

Thanks for that 212man.

I think 113 (1) might be passable if you accept the assumption that I would be getting paid for flying the helicopter, not "providing carriage"

Not too sure about 115(1) though - if it isn't PT - but I'm getting paid - does that make it de facto Aerial Work, and as such requiring a permission from Sec of State?

Anybody else out there actually tried applying for such a permission under similar circs to this?

[212man]

I would have thought that if the pax are paying company B and company B is paying you, it was pretty open and shut.

[JimL]

The pilot receiving payment for flying does not constitue 'public transport'. A large number of aircraft on foreign registers are operated for corporate aviation in the UK - the pilots have to be correctly licenced in accordance with the regulations in the State of Registration and most are remunerated - it is still 'private'.

However, what applies in the UK may not be so in other States of Europe where there exsists a hotch potch of rules which are not harmonised - but that's another story.

Jim

[heliheaven]

212man - Ah sorry - probably didnt explain it properly. Company "B" aren't getting any money from anybody, its basically for their ( Directors and their wives) own use.

[tall and tasty]

heliheaven

If the same rules apply for helis as they do for fixed wing you need to speak to the CAA licensing department. They can tell you and give you the appropriate department in the offices in London or as you say you hold a FAA licence you need to speak to the appropriate department in the FAA Traffic rights/licensing

If you are taking payment it may you need to find out the ins and outs of private hire as you are freelance

I will PM you the bible reference for any operating rights

TnT

[Barotrauma]

Why don't you just take your JAA exams rather than find ways to get around the system?

[212man]

Who says he doesn't? He is talking about an N reg aircraft after all (yes I know you can fly N reg in the UK on a UK licence, but not for aerial work other than instruction)

[pilotwolf]

Why don't you just take your JAA exams rather than find ways to get around the system?

Why should he have to spend 13 x (?)£200 just to keep the UK protection racket going? :mad:

...especially if this is a one of thing?

PW

[heliheaven]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why don't you just take your JAA exams rather than find ways to get around the system?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well two points here :

How will having a JAR licence (already have a CAA ATPL(H) thanks very much) help in this particular case?

If "The System" would accept this type of aircraft (like every other country in the world - including our fellow (and well-beloved) JAR states -without a requirement for a minimum of $200,000 worth of CAA-required "modifications" perhaps the owner would have put it on the"G".

Tnt - thanks for that, any info would be appreciated.

[md 600 driver]

heliheaven
i understand your frustration i own a n reg md600 last year i went to ascot and nearly fell fowl of the regualtions

i asked my mate who is caa atpl,h instructor/examiner to fly me plus the wife and two friends 5 in total on board

when we arrived at ascot we were met by a caa investigator who asked some questions about the flight

the caa chap told me it was illegal to pay the pilot and also my friend that had offered to pay the fuel and landing charges was also in the wrong as cost sharing was illegal for more that 4 occupants even though he paid for the tickets to get in

I told the pilot that i could not pay him [he said he didnt want paying as he would get grief from the caa ] and i paid the money back to my friend who had paid the fuel plus landings

i was not trying to do public transport it was a private flight between myself and a friend i have known for many years

steve

[Heliport]

Like most UK aviation regulations, the relevant rules are a hotch-potch of complicated and badly written regulations. To find the anwwer needs a lot of research through different regulations - and, even then, the position isn't entirely clear.

My understanding, without looking up the regs so it may be completely wrong, is:

Although the flight is Private, if the pilot is remunerated (in any form) for flying, then it is "Aerial Work".
You can't do aerial work in an N-reg aircraft without Department for Transport permission.
The permit is usually a formality but, if you don't have it, you run the risk of being prosecuted by the CAA. (People have been.)

I'm not sure the company which owns the N-reg aircraft is permitted to lease it for payment. Even if it is, then the aircraft must be PT category unless both companies belong to the same group or one owns the other.

[Barotrauma]

Apologies heliheaven - I had a conversation/argument a couple of months ago with someone that thought he had found a way around the system with exactly the same scenario that you gave. Thought you and he were one of the same
In the simple world that I come from I thought that all commercial work in N-registered helis contravened one or more CAA regulations