Cold War V-Force

[deeceethree]

Did anyone else see and enjoy the TV prog last night about the Vulcan, Valiant and Victor in their V-Force heyday?

I was surprised but pleased to see one of my former Victor flying instructors telling us about his days on Cold War QRA - Dick Russell, an absolute gent of a bloke.

[LXGB]

Came across it by chance while surfing the channels last night. Pretty good documentary. Missed half of it, bits I did see where interesting. Had a look on digiguide to see if there's a repeat, no joy.

LXGB

[BEagle]

Thought it was pretty good - but I nearly missed it as it was on at such an odd time! 1730-1930 on a Sunday evening? Why not 1930-2130, for example?

Fascinating seeing all the information on Blue Streak!

Surely they must have more Victor and Vulcan films tucked away rather than having to use library shots of hemp coloured Victors and present day shots of 655?

Or have all those priceless old training films now been destroyed...:uhoh:

[rivetjoint]

Anyone know if said programme is for sale on DVD?

[Anton Meyer]

Yes, I saw it and it was quality.

As for the airmen and the guys who kept them in the air, I have to salute them for what they were expected to do. It was, however, rather odd to see them scramble to their ac in the back of a Morris Minor....

Wittering hasn't changed much since then!

[Evanelpus]

Don't worry about the timings of this programme.

If it's the one I'm thinking it is, Discovery Wings will repeat it again and again at times various. You can always log onto their website and look at the tv schedules.

Best wishes

[BEagle]

No - that's 'Victors, Vulcans and Cuba' or somesuch and has been on several times as you say.

According to Channel Four, Britain's Cold War Super Weapons is not currently scheduled for repeat. But if, as I just did, you ring them on 020 7306 8333 (9am-9pm weekdays, 10am-9pm Saturdays, 10am-6pm (closed 1pm-2pm) Sundays and public holidays), they might change their minds if sufficent people ask....

[Razor61]

Jaw dropped at the state of the Canberra that made it back to the airfield after flying through the mushroom cloud of the H-bomb. Great footage from inside the cockpit etc.

Got a bit warm in there....

[Krystal n chips]

Fascinating prog---and like others here agree with the rather ludicrous slot time.

Loved the bit though, when they were towing the prototype Valiant out of the shed--lots of guys waving people away including the one in the flat cap--and the big cloud of smoke from his mouth !--magic !.

Just one query though. I saw one shot of a Vulcan getting airborne with airbrakes extended---normal practice from a roller or not ?.

[BikerMark]

Yes, I wondered about that too. It looks like it was coated with something, perhaps as a sacrificial layer which could be washed off afterwards in a decontamination process. The interview with the Canberra's pilot was interesting, he's now 68 and perfectly well, with healthy children and grandchildren.

By contrast, the consequences of nuclear mismanagment:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1469597,00.html

"There was a moment when there was the danger of a nuclear explosion, and they had to get the water out from under the reactor, so that a mixture of uranium and graphite wouldn't get into it - with the water, they would have formed a critical mass. The explosion would have been between three and five megatons. This would have meant that not only Kiev and Minsk, but a large part of Europe would have been uninhabitable. Can you imagine it? A European catastrophe. "

Scary.

Mark.

[BEagle]

Razor61- the Canberras were coated in a special sticky paint designed for the purpose of collecting detonation products....

That wasn't just the normal paint burnt to a frazzle!

[Razor61]

Beagle,
Thanks for that.

BikerMark,
Yes the pilot seemed to be in perfectly good health, a much sadder story of another Canberra pilot that did the same job is here though:-
Link (http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=112&id=1735342001)

[Gainesy]

Alas, missed it despite a heads-up on here last week. Will call the number BEags supplied & request a re-run at a more sensible time.

EdAd: Done, no plans for repeat at present, but they'll pass any requests on up the line.

[BikerMark]

Razor61 - Yes, indeed a sad story.

This kind of thing "Since coming to power the present government, which backed the veterans while it was in opposition, has been reluctant to admit a connection between the tests and the levels of illness. " makes me cross.

Mark.

[Compass Call]

According to my atlas there are two Christmas Islands. One in the Pacific Ocean and one in the Indian Ocean. Which island was the site of the nuclear bomb tests?:confused:


CC

[Razor61]

The Christmas Island in the Pacific is the one where the UK conducted the tests, and afterwards the USA did a few tests there also as an agreement between the UK and USA, along the lines of --if the UK has access to the Nevada Test Site for underground detonations, then they (the USA) can use Christmas Island....-- sort of thing.

It is part of the Gilbert/Ellice islands of which Cook discovered in 1777 and thereafter annexed as part of Britain.

The name is now changed to 'Kiritimati', part of the Kiribati atoll, the largest in the pacific.

The Christmas island in the Indian Ocean belongs to Australia, and is where they like to send all their illegal immigrants.....atleast the ones that were onboard the freighter a few years ago anyway.

[Pontius Navigator]

A Christmas Island worker during the tests is raising money for the "Kiribati Island School Appeal". He was looked after well by the locals and feels they have been abandoned to their fate. He is now trying to put something back in to their community.

[reynoldsno1]

The name is now changed to 'Kiritimati' Actually it hasn't changed at all - Kiritimati is pronounced "Christmas". There are only 13 letters in the Gilbertese alphabet, and 'ti' has an 's' sound.....
Kiribati is pronounced "Kiribass" (the ..,bass bit spoken like the fish....)

[Milt]

First British H Bomb

First Penetration of Nuclear Cloud by a Canberra Aircraft Near the Pacific Christmas Island

Extract from Memoirs by Wg Cdr George Bates.

My crews and I had our final briefings at Joint Operations Centre and then moved down to our aircraft dispersal and squadron office. A dramatic moment occurred when the Valiant, piloted by the 49 Squadron C.O. Ken Hubbard, rolled along the runway gathering speed with its lethal load on board. We all watched with relief as it climbed away in the morning sunlight, gleaming white in its anti-glare livery.

In contrast 76 Squadron sampling aircraft stood in dispersal covered in a greenish water based barrier paint. This coat of paint had been put on a couple of days earlier, and was designed to be easily washed off, allowing the inevitable heavy radiation contamination to be minimised after exposure in the nuclear cloud. It was approaching midmorning and we were close to being ordered to take off for Malden Island, 400 miles to the South and across the Equator. So close to the Equator was Christmas Isle that we crossed it nearly every time we flew. Because of the need to get to 50,000’ plus, and could only do so by carrying minimum fuel we were not due to take-off until the H-Bomb had been successfully dropped. We listened out on the Operational Frequency and heard the Valiant flying its pattern and reporting at various points. It carried out a practice run and then declared the next run to be a live drop. Clearance was given to Ken Hubbard from the Task Force Commander in the Operations Room on H.M.S. Warrior to go ahead. The dramatic countdown came over the air and then the vital call - "Bomb Gone". The Valiant then carried out a tight turn in an escape manoeuvre to clear the aircraft from suffering heat or blast damage as the weapon detonated.

By this time, after a period of a "dry mouth" wait I was airborne, followed by Barry Newton, en route to the Ground Zero Area, where the drop would occur. We heard it all as we climbed up. Our call signs had been changed from the normal, somewhat humorously, the Controller was "Sniff Boss", I was "Sniff One" and Barry Newton "Sniff Two", apt names for Samplers. I reported into Air Commodore Wilson as Sniff Boss and continued my climb. Fortunately, the Tropopause was at 54,000 feet and I did not anticipate any problem reaching that altitude. On reaching the area I flew into our predetermined racetrack, viewing the awesome spectacle of the huge anvil nuclear cloud levelled out at the Tropopause. I received the go-ahead to do the first penetration. It was a tense moment, not much time to reflect on all the dangers mentioned earlier. Into the cloud we flew and fortunately, little turbulence was experienced and no danger to the canopy from heat change. Immediate relief was felt as our worst fears diminished. My crew started to report Radiation Readings on the special instruments, also opening up the Sampling equipment on entry.

It was eerie in the cloud and the main difference from ordinary cloud was that inside it was multicoloured. pale purples, yellows mixed with whites. I steered for the stronger coloured parts where I figured the best samples would be obtained, of matter and gas. We reported radiation readings as Romeo, the dose rate registered and Charlie giving the Cumulative Dose. The rates permitted me to do a further two runs and then the Controller instructed me to finish sampling and return to base. It was with relief and happiness that we immediately set-off to return to Christmas Island as fast as possible. From such a height we were able to make a swift and gradual descent and land. We were cleared to land and taxi to a special Decontamination Area, where a specially trained team in heavy protective clothing marshalled us in. A short wait whilst they monitored the aircraft with their Geiger Counters to establish Radiation Levels, and then we were cleared to leave the aircraft. I opened the clear vision window and the Navigator opened the escape door. To avoid us picking up further radiation from the outside of the aircraft as we climbed out, they covered the exit and steps with PVC sheets. We moved away and watched the Scientific Team removing the Filters and Gas Tank, to be despatched post haste to UK for analysis by Canberras positioned en route in relay.

As we entered the Decontamination Centre we were constantly monitored. All our clothing was removed as it was radioactive and we showered until declared clear. It was in the hair that the worst occurred, but, it was not dangerous radiation only Beta ray contamination which could be washed off. I had to shower six times before declared clear to leave. Well, at last, after all the waiting it was over and we felt great at such success. After debriefing, a feeling of anticlimax and a wait for the other crews to return safely. The whole operation had been a triumph of planning and execution. Everyone involved was on cloud nine, as we all wound down and savoured success. We wondered what would be the reaction at home when the news broke, and our thoughts turned to our families and loved ones, 12,000 miles away.

[HectorusRex]

My recollections of what occurred at Christmas Island are based upon the personal stories as recounted by Wg Cdr George Bates with whom I had a fairly close personal relationship, both socially and professionally.

As a result of his account of his part and the book written by the Grapple Commander, I had no worries in visiting Christmas Island on a couple of occasions whilst delivering two of Sir Freddie Laker’s ATL-98 aircraft from New Zealand to Honolulu for the new owners.

Much has been written about what supposedly happened, but in the words of the late George Bates “I don’t glow in the dark, and nobody has been closer to the clouds of a nuclear explosion than I have”.

The following from: http://www.janeresture.com/christmas_bombs/index.htm
is of some interest concerning whether or not the Island was/is contaminated by radio-active waste.
There is ample evidence of rubbish left behind by the departing military forces, but no evidence of nuclear damage even in the area to the SE near Aeon Point where a couple of balloon dropped explosions were carried out.

“At the beginning of 1963 there was talk of the establishment of a permanent American satellite tracking station on Christmas Island, but interest waned and by the end of September the last of the American servicemen had departed. In Britain, too, strategic imperatives were changing and the Christmas Island base was an early casualty of the withdrawal of British Forces from the Pacific theatre. In June the last inventories were made, obsolete and dangerous materials were dumped at sea, the offices were locked and at sunset on Monday 19th June, 1964 the White Ensign was lowered at the Royal Navy shore station, H.M.S. Resolution.
American service personnel reappeared very briefly in April, 1970 to stand by on Christmas Island for the "splash-down", two hundred miles to the south, of the Apollo 13 crew returning from the moon.
After the departure of the Forces, Operation "Hard Look" had carried out a full investigation into the possibilities of radio-active contamination, but had found none. In 1975 a further examination of Christmas Island was undertaken by American experts as part of the preparation for the establishment of a Japanese tracking station. They reported that radioactivity levels were lower than those found in most American cities and that there was nothing on the island which could lead an investigator to deduce that there had ever been an atomic detonation in the vicinity.”

George Bates returned to his native Britain after the death of his wife and then died himself some time later as the result of a heart attack.

[Tocsin]

Turning back to those who missed the broadcast, I've just got back home, and can confirm the programme is safely recorded.

Send me your details, including mail address, and a DVD (-R) will be in the post, subject to two conditions:

1. If the programme ever comes out commercially, you buy it then, and

2. You consider making a contribution of a beer token or two to PPRuNe.

However, I'm off on exercise to Denmark next week, so any mails received after Monday 2/5 will not be dealt with for about a month!

Catch me with a PM or at [email protected]

[TC27]

My grandfather was involved in operation Grapple (groundcrew), he died of cancer some years before I was born.
I believe there was some kind of settlement between his widow (my grandmother) and the MOD a few years ago, I will have to ask questions.

(the poor bastard also spent most of the war in a Japanese POW camp after being flown into Singpore a few days before some idiot surrendered it).

[bluetail]

This is an excellent site about Operation Grapple,


http://www.janeresture.com/christmas_bombs/


As an aside Valiant "XD818" which dropped the first Hydrogen Weapon as part of Grapple, is currently getting moved from Hendon to Cosford as part of the Cold War exhibition being planned.

BT

[Snakecharmer]

Thought the first third of the programme (ie. the bit that dealt with aeroplanes & crews, not rockets!) was pretty good. Rang my father to discuss later (he's ex Victor 1s)... he mentioned the Cuban missile crisis bit and, more to the point, how the RAF was placed on its highest state of alert only after the boats had turned round and SAC had been stood down! Entirely believable!