Flight Deck Retirement Ages

[lah11]

I married to a pilot due to retire (at 60) in two year's time. I am currently doing an MA in Personnel and Development.

In my dissertation I am considering the EU Equal Treatment Framework Directive (2000/78/EC) which requires all EU countries to implement national legislation preventing age discrimination. This has to be implemented in the UK by 1st December 2006.

My particular area of research is the current requirement for pilots to retire at 60 (BA -55?). What approaches are your companies making to this proposed legislation? Have there been any meetings concerning this legislation? Are BALPA/IPA involved in any discussions? Have you been involved as an operating pilot in any discussions concerning retirement ages?

Thanks so much for your replies. I look forward to hearing from you.

[JW411]

Where does it say that pilots have to retire at 60?

I am well past that date and my Company are more than happy for me to carry on until 65.

I simply stay out of France and Italy.

[Fokkerwokker]

Is he still making you work L? Shame on him.

I am aware that a number of companies are allowing pilots to fly until they are 65. They are of course limited by the intransigence of the French. I am led to believe that scenario may well be modified by domestic French action as they have pension problems of their own there. It will be interesting to see, nevertheless, if they will comply with the EU directive next year.

If I get any useful and reliable/verifiable info I will PM you.

I hope you will get plenty of useful stuff from BB colleagues here.

FW

PS Tell T I will give him a 50 yard start in a zimmer frame race in 2007 and still beat him :ok:

[HZ123]

BA has indeed addessed this issue and our flight crews have been told that of as Feb 06 they will be able to remain until 60. The present 55 is contractual to their Pensions, therefore they may still retire at 55. This age change also applies to CC.

Of other concern is the present method of using 'seniority' to appoint / bid for flights / bid lines etc. Under the EU rules that system will be illegal as it is discriminatery.

[maxy101]

HZ123 I understand that no one is sure whether "seniority" dependent on time served in a company is unlawful yet.....for instance how would a company decide who is to lose their jobs in the case of forced redundancies?

[Wingswinger]

I'm not sure that seniority could be viewed as discriminatory under the new law because it is based on time served within the company. Many pilots in BA have others senior to them who are, in fact, younger. Any correlation with age applies only between pilots who join on the same day when date of birth is taken as the seniority determinant.

[maxy101]

All true....but I know that BA are awaiting the first challenge at a tribunal , probably by a 38 yr old DEP at the bottom of Bidline. (Or a 25 yr old ex cadet that wants to go P/T)

[Flyrr100]

I'm anxious to hear the outcome as we in the US also want to extend our useful life to 65.

[4468]

Flyrr100

There will be no precedent set for the US by EU legislation! But I thought you already had something similar, judging by the age of American cabin crew arriving at LHR!

HZ123

I am sure you are already aware that "our flight crews" have been told no such thing!

[Flyrr100]

4468

Thats only because the long haul trips go super senior. And, with all the furloughs and layoffs there are only old guys left at the majors!

I'm with a regional. The longest trip I fly is maybe 2 1/2 hours. But I'm home most nights. :)

[lah11]

Thank you for all your information. My dissertation is nearly in and hope that it will make interesting reading!!

My research has shown that it is going to happen that pilots will be able to retire at 65. ICAO has modified its rule to conform with that of the JAA, i.e. one pilot in a multi-crew can be over 60 but the other pilot must be under
60. These changes will become effective on 23 November 2006.

You might like also to look at the CAA LASORS 2006, Section A9, which states the same thing.

Obviously there will be objections that over 60 pilots can not overfly France, Italy and Portugal. My opinion is that they will have to abide by the EU Directive, which has to be implemented in all EU countries by 1st December 2006.

Any comments on this? I look forward to your replies.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Lah11

In my Company we have Commanders who can contractually fly to 65 as long as they avoid France and Italy. I thought Portugal was only limited to those Commanders with Portuguese licences. If they are EU now I need to check JarOps!:\

[dusk2dawn]

lah11, I've downloaded CAA LASORS 2006 and tried to find where in Section A9 the future changes, as you describe them, should be written. I'm not familiar with said document and may easily have missed something but I would appreciate a pointer ?

[Pilot Pete]

With my UK charter airline the retirement age is currently 60, but captains can stay on for another two years if they go back to being an F/O.

I haven't heard of any changes in the pipeline regarding late 2006 changes...

PP

[Jagbag]

In India the retirement age for corporate was 65+. Now it is 65 for the expanding airline industry too!

As mentioned already the condition is that two above 60s cannot fly together....

Private airlines severely short of pilots have welcomed the change. The government union driven airlines refuse to budge as the majority of the work force in these are waiting for career progression.

[teghjeet]

India just raised to 65 in dec due to acute shortage of Commanders

[teghjeet]

Just to fly with another Pilot who is not over 60.

[behind_the_second_midland]

When does a Flight Deck retire? When the aircraft is scrapped?

Flight Crew, on the other hand, generally do have retirement dates.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The new directive that says this year you need not retire if you do not wish to do so, I thought was an EU directive enforcable this year. How are France and Italy opting out?

[chimbu warrior]

A friend working for the regulator here in the Southern hemisphere recently explained the ICAO changes that become effective in November.

Pilots may continue to fly in command until age 65, provided that another pilot in the crew is under 60.

An ICAO member state may choose to apply more restrictive regulations (i.e. PIC must be less than 60) however it cannot prevent pilots of another ICAO member state (i.e. one which allows pilots to fly until 65) from flying into their airspace and airports. Thus if an Australian PIC who is 64 years old wants to fly into France in an Australian-registered aircraft, and using an Australian licence, then there is nothing the French can do about it.

Sorry I cannot refer you to an ICAO website to confirm this.

[dusk2dawn]

That would be an important development - but it does require documentation to be credible.

[Baron rouge]

Obviously there will be objections that over 60 pilots can not overfly France, Italy and Portugal. My opinion is that they will have to abide by the EU Directive, which has to be implemented in all EU countries by 1st December 2006.

Any comments on this? I look forward to your replies.

Because the ICAO STANDARD will be 65, France, even if it chooses to keep 60 for its own pilots, will have no rights to impose that deviation from the standard to any other country.
Be happy +60 boys and girls, by autumn this year you will be allowed back in the sky of France, and very welcomed too.:ok:

And this out of any EU directive.

[dusk2dawn]

Well, all they have to do is to notify ICAO of whatever differences they like to Annex I.

[Baron rouge]

Well, all they have to do is to notify ICAO of whatever differences they like to Annex I.

Wrong !

Even if the French notify a difference for their nationals they will have no rights under article 33 of the Chicago convention,to refuse other pilots whose license is internationally recognised by ICAO.

At the moment they can forbid foreigners over 60 to overfly their territory or operate from their territory because the NORM for captain is 60 max, and if most of the countries have adopted a 65 age limit, it is nonetheless at present a difference from the norm and you have no right to impose your differences to other state.

With the new norm beeing voted very soon, the norm will be 65 , hence no possibility for France to forbid its territory to pilots within the norm.

C.Q.F.D.

[dusk2dawn]

Article 33
Recognition of certificates and licenses
Certificates of airworthiness and certificates of competency and licenses issued or rendered valid by the contracting State in which the aircraft is registered, shall be recognized as valid by the other contracting States, provided that the requirements under which such certificates or licenses were issued or rendered valid are equal to or above the minimum standards which may be established from time to time pursuant to this Convention.

And there was light ! :D

[Baron rouge]

And there was light ! :D

Exactly the official confirmation of what I said, thanks.

[old fart]

Hello chaps,
I will turn 60 this summer. I have been told that pilots of foreign registered aircraft may operate into, or out of, the USA provided that their foreign licence is valid. Ie at ages over 60. I have tried to find this in FAR 61 but it is not clearly specified. Pilots of USA registered aircraft are clearly banned but the rest seems open to interpretation.
Can anyone help?
Many thanks
:confused:

[cap10lobo]

The unions in SAS are in great agony about this right now. EU says you can stay and some countries have made this a law about discrimination against elder!?:uhoh:

The union want´s to kick them out, but that they will probably win in court. When the union kicks out the most senior guys, what happens then?

They have to fly shorthaul due to restrictions in the US we have been told, but then again nobody seems to know about france..

They get full pension and keep their salary:oh: But the company doesnt have to pay taxes and retirement funds whitch actually makes them cheaper than a 50 year old!

This is a tough one.. espessially when there is a pilot surplus.

[GW1]

Why should a pilot 'surplus' have any bearing on laws that allow or restrict airline pilots from flying over 60? You imply that if their is a pilot 'shortage' the rule should be changed. Do we change it back if there is a recession and there's a surplus again? That's nuts!

If someone is healthy and competent, why retrict their career? In any other industry (in most countries) that would be illegal and the unions would pitch a fit!!!

60 as an age was yanked out of some Amrican bureaucrat's butt almost 50 years ago. Now the Americans are among the last to amend the rule.

Time they got their act together and moved into the real world with the rest of us!!!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Hi Guys can someone clarify that Pilots over 60 cannot fly into Italy and Portugal plse. I've been lead to believe that the JAA are now stating that this actually says Pilots with Italian or Portuguse licences cannot fly over 60. I was under the impression it was anyone ?:\

[dusk2dawn]

The general JAA rule is:

JAR–FCL 1.060 Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more
(See Appendix 1 to JARFCL 1.060)
(a) Age 60–64. The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 60 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations except:
(1) as a member of a multi-pilot crew and provided that,
(2) such holder is the only pilot in the flight crew who has attained age 60.
(b) Age 65. The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 65 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations.
(c) Any national variant to the requirements in (a) and (b) above are given in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.060
-
In Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.060 it says:

Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.060
National Variants on Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more (See JAR-FCL 1.060)
National Variants
The following national variant on JAR-FCL 1.060 has been filed to the JAA:
-
- France – (F)JAR-FCL 1.060
- Italy – (I)JAR-FCL 1.060
- Portugal – (P)JAR-FCL 1.060
- Hungary – (H)JAR-FCL 1.060
-
(I)JAR–FCL 1.060 Curtailment of privileges of licence holders
aged 60 years or more (Italy)
The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 60 shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport.

(F)JAR–FCL 1.060 Curtailment of privileges of licence holders
aged 60 years or more (France)
(a) According to ICAO Annex 1 standards, the holder of a pilot licence
who has attained the age of 60 shall not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations in the airspace of France.
(b) The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 60 shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft in commercial air transport operations under the jurisdiction of the French National Aviation.

(P)JAR–FCL 1.060 Curtailment of privileges of licence holders
aged 60 years or more (Portugal)
The holder of a pilot licence who has attained the age of 60 shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport.

(H)JAR–FCL 1.060 Curtailment of privileges of licence holders
aged 60 years or more (Hungary)
The holder of a pilot licence who was age of 60 shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations except:
(a) As a member of a multi-pilot crew and provided that,
(b) Such holder is the only pilot in the flight crew who has attained age 60. The person who was age of 62 years shall not act as a pilot of an aircraft engaged in commercial air transport operations.

Regarding the actual enforcement of these rules I know from firsthand experience that France and Italy do regular inspections of foreign aircrews. I have never seen a Portugese inspector and I have never been to Hungary.