View Full Version : A new pay deal from Flybe
Flying Fiona
23rd Apr 2005, 08:39
New pay deal in the offering.
£30 payment for extension of duty.
£100 payment for unscheduled night stop.
5% increase in pay on basic and increments.
I URGE YOU ALL TO VOTE AGAINST THIS OFFER.
The company yesterday had 757's flying for them. This is your pay rise. DO NOT let the management get away with it.
Maybe if the resignation of the Ops director was added to the deal the outcome of the vote would be yes.
It is up to you now. You only have yourselves to blame if you vote yes to this latest p--s take.
Dash-7 lover
23rd Apr 2005, 08:44
Surely something is better than nothing and with regard's to the 757's - you may find that it was because of technical/operational disruption which was already budgeted for ..... . How much do you want??
JobsaGoodun
23rd Apr 2005, 09:04
I agree Dash 7.
Is not an extension of duty legal by CAP371??? Why the need for additional payment. Please don't get me wrong, I know that disruption can make it very difficult to plan a life outside of work but this is the career path you've chosen.....if it doesn't work then surely you should select another.
Why should your rise be any higher than any other staff member employed by Flybe? Surely you knew the wage in advance and were happy with what was offered. Suggest if you want more pay then you go elsewhere!...for a company on it's knees just 3 years ago I would have been more than happy with a 9% payrise in 2 years.
(Just speaking my mind! - ducks below the parapet!)
terrier21
23rd Apr 2005, 10:32
I Don't Believe it Complaining about a £100 payment for an Unscheduled night stop. I don't work in the air and have no aspirations to but what about the passengers who up untill recently have been given a couple of quid to get themselves half a cup of coffee in the airport lounges and 1 blanket between 4. Not to mention the staff on the ground who actually deal with them!!! Most of the time it's due to the crew who are 5 mins out of hours. Ground staff don't get any extra.
Oh sorry I forgot who cares about those on the ground!
Because, terrier21, we often have it happen to us several times a month. If you want compensation for a delay, fly with an airline that offers one. And as for the delay usually being because the crew is 5 mins out of hours... bollocks!
But perhaps you can enlighten me... just why does somebody, with no aspirations to fly commercially, hang around a professional pilots forum?
I know that disruption can make it very difficult to plan a life outside of work but this is the career path you've chosen.....if it doesn't work then surely you should select another.
No... we chose to become airline pilots. In some (well, many) airlines, you can plan your life. Even in Ryanair, you know when you will be home, and nightstops are virtually unheard of.
In flybe, disruption is standard procedure. It occurs constantly, is not mitigated by caring people in Crewing or Ops, and is now expected of everyone.
A while back, under the then Jet fleet manager, I was hauled down to EXT to "explain myself" after an individual in crewing complained that I had taken too long to drive myself to Newcastle, even though the reason I was late was that crewing had failed to book the rental car. The crewing guy complained to cover his arse, and the clown of a FM went along with it.
Nothing came of it, but the fact remains that the Crewing and Ops philosophies in the company are adversarial, and take no account of anyone's personal circumstances.
In all companies with a hint of modernity about them, it has long been realised that your staff are your greatest asset. The extension of this, is that whilst it may be legal to work crews to the letter of CAP371, and disrupt them at the whim of Crewing, it is not the smart way to treat your workforce. It may not be an issue for you young chaps with no families, but for the rest of us, it is extremely hard on our relationships, and the well-being of our families.
You can say what you like about Ryanair and O'Leary, but he is one smart cookie. He realised that crews would be perfectly willing to work hard, if they weren't constantly dicked around and weren't night-stopped (and if you paid them properly).
Personally, I would be quite happy to swap a pay rise for a guarantee of no night stops (except due to a tech aircraft that I was flying when it went tech). Failing that, a guarantee of a decent hotel, not stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Many of my colleagues who have left from the 146, all very experienced people, left because of the awful lifestyle produced by the continuing ineptness of Crewing. There are more horror stories out there than I believed possible.
Although I don't quite share the militant attitude of Fiona, I think the pay offer sucks big-time. I wouldn't vote for it - the company can do better, and damn well should after all the crap of the last few years.
terrier21
23rd Apr 2005, 12:13
But perhaps you can enlighten me... just why does somebody, with no aspirations to fly commercially, hang around a professional pilots forum?
Sorry MOR I thought I was in the Airlines,Airports & Routes page I think you'll find just as many on here work on the ground as Fly. If you have a problem with me being on here report me to a moderator. (have you been enlightened?!!!)
Just airing a view an opinion which I believe I am entitled to no matter who I am or who I work for.
T21
:ok:
JobsaGoodun
23rd Apr 2005, 12:42
MOR,
Surely if you see Flybe in that way....why haven't you already left?
I will simply revert back to my original phrase. If you feel so hard done by then leave and go and work for Ryanair or is it that your not too keen to pay for everything upfront.
the fact remains that the Crewing and Ops philosophies in the company are adversarial, and take no account of anyone's personal circumstances.
Exactly what does this refer too?. Crewing and Ops are employed by an airline, the airline pays their wages. They are doing their job!
Many of my colleagues who have left from the 146, all very experienced people, left because of the awful lifestyle produced by the continuing ineptness of Crewing
Your obvious attitude towards your Crewing colleagues clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge as to the job they do, and on a somewhat massivley reduced salary than your own. With that attitude, why should anyone respect you. Respect is earned and should not be expected. Maybe if you were more sympathetic to the job Crewing do then you may endear yourself a little more!
Oh dear I see I must spell out every word for the children amongst us...
Exactly what does this refer too?. Crewing and Ops are employed by an airline, the airline pays their wages. They are doing their job!
There are many, many ways that you can do your job. You can do it cheerfully and efficently. You can do it grumpily and wastefully. Sometimes, when you are under-resourced and under-staffed, you can simply take the route that removes the problem from you in the quickest possible time, with no thought at all for the consequences of those affected by your decision. When stuck between angry crews and insistent management, you may decide to take your revenge on a crew member who is making your life difficult.
The last two happen with boring regularity.
If you cannot understand how an employee can do their job in an adversarial way, you really shouldn't be flying airliners.
Your obvious attitude towards your Crewing colleagues clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge as to the job they do
In actual fact, I have spent a lot of time observing crewing, partly as a result of being a part of Open Channel for a bit, when it investigated some issues a year or two back. I have also been involved in Ops delay meetings, and other formal and informal discussions on these matters.
on a somewhat massivley reduced salary than your own.
Oh do please grow up. They also have considerably less responsibility than I do, have not had to pass exams or flight tests to get their jobs, and have spent no money to get where they are. They also never get unscheduled nightstops, have their duties extended, or are required to spend weeks at a time in some scummy hotel.
Maybe if you were more sympathetic to the job Crewing do then you may endear yourself a little more!
If you had bothered to read my post properly, you would have seen that I attribute the problems in Crewing to two external factors; a management pushing for results, and a lack of resources. A visit to Crewing will reveal the archaic nature of the tools they use, and if you hang around long enough, you will probably see one of them being berated about something. The individuals on the phones (when you can get hold of them) are not always the problem - Crewing as a department is not just those people.
I have sat there for many hours and seen what goes on. It is not an easy job. However, that does not excuse some of the decisions that get made.
You may, if you have been around the company long enough (and you sound like a fresh new recruit to me), remember the months leading up to the departure of the terminally useless Jet FM. There were a few people being hauled to EXT for disciplinaries because they had become so frustrated with the situation, they simply refused to take any more. Some were very senior pilots who had never complained before, about anything, over many years service. When such people say "enough!", you have a serious structural problem.
It was no surprise to me that the Jet FM stepped down shortly thereafter.
Anyway, you are obviously happy as a clam, so I suggest you refuse your pay rise as a contribution to the company. Maybe one day your eyes will be opened.
JobsaGoodun
23rd Apr 2005, 15:31
MOR,
I shant bother to respond further as this appears to be a futile conversation.
Suffice to say that Crewing appears to be a thankless job. The better you crew flights the less crew are required and so the more difficult the job becomes. Many people invest in their careers by going to university and also have a great deal of debt once finished. It is not only pilots, and at least flightdeck crew can expect the earn a higher salary than average in order to pay off their debt.
The best we can hope for is that those new to flying read the rule book before they start, at least this way they may appreciate the life and career path chosen before embarking upon it.
Oh goody, I'll have the last word then! :}
The better you crew flights the less crew are required and so the more difficult the job becomes.
Wrong. There is a minimum number of crews you need, once you have taken into account sickness, leave, disruption, and so on. A typical figure would be 3.6 crews per aircraft. However, as flybe has such a disjointed base structure and route network (because they change the master plan with such regularity), they usually require a slightly higher figure.
You now have a problem, because Crewing know how many crews are required, based on experience and projections, but the Ops Director usually comes up with a different figure - because he has to satisfy a budget constraint imposed by his boss. The usual result is that the Ops Director is forced to make the programme work with less money than it really needs. Thus we have an under-staffed and under-resourced Crewing department, having to make it all happen with less crews than the job requires. If this goes on for any length of time, you see blowouts in the HOTAC budget, and you see the company desperately buying leave and days off from crews because they have no standbys.
So you can see (well, maybe you can't) that the real problem lies with the financial constraints on the department, not with how clever Crewing are. The reality is that they have not been able to be significantly cleverer for a few years now.
Sadly, the result of Crewing coping heroically and making the programme happen, is that the directors assume that all is well, and completely fail to see the unrest and dissent in the ranks.
Mind you, I am sure that in your rose-tinted world, there is no dissent, no unrest, and there are regular group hugs in the BHX crewroom...
Many people invest in their careers by going to university and also have a great deal of debt once finished.
Who, in Crewing, has a degree? I don't know of anybody, with a degree, that has worked in Crewing in the last seven years. Well, maybe Sally did, but she was really good at her job. She actually helped the crews, remember favours done for Crewing (that no longer happens), and went out of her way to be considerate. Those were the days...
flightdeck crew can expect the earn a higher salary than average in order to pay off their debt.
... which is just as well, as their level of debt is correspondingly higher... :rolleyes:
The best we can hope for is that those new to flying read the rule book before they start, at least this way they may appreciate the life and career path chosen before embarking upon it.
Well, if they read the BA rulebook, or the FR rulebook, or the Easyjet rulebook, they will be pretty shocked when they turn up at flybe...
BTW flybe is a good company, they just have some blind spots, which have needed fixing for years. I still rate them very highly, but I'm not unable to see the bad bits, as you clearly are.
Wow. Great posts! Have to say I'm one of those leaving because I'm fed up of the pissy salary and being messed around so often. An example of how well we are looked after : when night-stopping in another base, I turned up for work to find I was out of check on the a/c at that base. It shouldn't have been rostered, and the fantastic AIMS systems that everyone (apart from those who actually use it everyday) raves about hadn't flagged it as illegal.
Luckily there was someone else to do the first two sectors of the afternoon shift. The way around getting someone else in to do the last 4 was to get me to position to another destination, hop on a different aircraft that I could legally operate, and the guy on that one would swap with me.
One problem - all my stuff for 4 days worth of night-stopping was spread across my hotel room. When I mentioned this to crewing, the response was "that's not a concern of ours. If we have time we'll look into getting it back to your base for you".
How considerate. All my personal belongings (luckily I'd not taken all my 'toys' with me;) had to be packed up by some hotel person, and another cabin crew member had to check it in as their own on a flight back to my home base....
...and if you did your toes in, and insist on doing the right thing and rescuing your gear, you end up in EXT having a disciplinary...
The attitude you describe is rife, and yours is not an isolated case. Any other stories out there?
Dash-7 lover
24th Apr 2005, 07:36
To all.......... Aren't the 'Flybe 757's' actually 737-300's????? or have I missed something. Before anybody decides to jump ship because they think the grass is greener... take it from a 32 year old that has worked for Brymon Airways/Jersey European/European Air Charter/Servisair/Sainsbury's!!/Brittany Ferries etc etc that the grass ISN'T always that deeper shade of green you've always longed for.......... At least it looks like the company recognises the disruption crew get and are willing to compensate, which is more than most!!
Personally, I'm impressed at what FLYBE have acheived since shaking off the stranglehold of Jack Walker and changing their image and fleet!! Mind you I miss the F27's!!
My current employer hasn't enough crew or aircraft to fly the schedules we have - we rely on crew goodwill and paying them for duty changes/disruption/working days off etc etc which is needed but in the long term still works out cheaper for the airline than to train more people than they have to, only for them to leave at a faster rate!! It the nature of the beast I'm afraid!!
To those crew that complain of being messed around. IF PLANES DIDN'T BREAK AND YOUR COLLEAGUES DIDN'T GO SICK AT THE DROP OF HAT AND THE WEATHER WAS PERFECT EVERYWHERE - THERE WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM so don't blame ops or crew control as they can only work with the tools they have!!
To those crew that complain of being messed around. IF PLANES DIDN'T BREAK AND YOUR COLLEAGUES DIDN'T GO SICK AT THE DROP OF HAT AND THE WEATHER WAS PERFECT EVERYWHERE - THERE WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM
Nonsense. You know why? Because:-
My current employer hasn't enough crew or aircraft to fly the schedules we have - we rely on crew goodwill and paying them for duty changes/disruption/working days off etc etc which is needed but in the long term still works out cheaper for the airline than to train more people than they have to, only for them to leave at a faster rate!! It the nature of the beast I'm afraid!!
That is a flybe modus operandi from way back.
so don't blame ops or crew control as they can only work with the tools they have!!
Partly true, but, as noted above, Crewing often show scant regard for the well-being of their crews. They could take the needs of crew members into acount, but they choose not to, for one reason or another. Some try hard to be reasonable, others just couldn't give a toss.
The problem will not go away until the department is properly resourced and managed.
CaptAirProx
24th Apr 2005, 21:31
I never have a problem with Crewing or Ops that makes it negative. I am polite and understanding 100%. I willingly do jobs required of me and only protest if I really really need to get out of it. I get the same back on the whole. Ok some new crewing people won't know me well, but I find the odd cheeky help from crewing makes me smile for days on end. Can't see this happening in a big outfit.
It takes two to Tango and it does seem that quite often it is not what crew say to crewing, but how they say it that will work wonders on kindness.
circlesquare
25th Apr 2005, 14:57
Capt Airprox,
Well said... now, if only a few more thought the same.
MOR,
And your solution to this problem is what? Sack all of ops/crewing and start again? No... didn't think so.
Having a whinge is your perogative, but with your undoubted years of experience, please feel free to entertain me with a how best to handle the problems of which you speak so passionately about....
0[]
Well, OK but only because you asked so politely... :rolleyes:
Sack all of ops/crewing and start again? No... didn't think so.
Nope. If you read what I wrote, you will see that I don't believe the people on the end of the phones are the problem. It is a resourcing problem.
So...
1) Actively implement the oft-stated company line that "our staff are our greatest asset".
2) Whilst doing the above, recognise that crews are not a commodity to be shipped from one base to the next, with no regard for their personal circumstances.
3) recognise also that crews are not owned by the company, and a have a legitimate right to a life once their obligations to the company are satisfied (ie get them home).
4) Equip Crewing with sufficient personnel and equipment to do the job with as little stress as possible. In other words, the staff in Crewing should benefit from 1) above.
5) Employ sufficient pilots to allow a proper standby capability.
6) Outlaw forever, the following:
-long positioning trips prior to a duty (six hours in a rental car, prior to a 4 sector duty, is my personal record).
-requiring crews to position from the airport to the hotel via public transport (as was the case in Paris)
-the use of poor quality or unsuitable hotels (the one in NCL being a prime example)
-forcing cabin crew to drive rental cars (happened frequently when they used to position from EDI to NCL) - not supposed to happen, but it did.
-keeping crew members away from home base for six days at a time (happened to me on more than one occasion - not rostered either)
-closing bases with no consideration given to the crew members at that base
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the picture.
I might add that over the years, I have had few problems with Crewing, but I have had to go in to bat for quite a few people who have been very badly treated by them (mostly cabin crew).
On the subject of respect, yes it is earned - however, flybe captains are on salaries equivalent to senior managers, and the company considers them to hold that status. They are therefore due a certain amount of respect by right. How they are viewed by Crewing is in the hands of each crew member, and only a fool antagonises a crewing controller without having a very good reason.
Sadly, there have been a lot of good reasons over the last few years...
CaptAirProx
25th Apr 2005, 19:58
circlesquare, why thankyou.
I must be honest and although I was able to read between the lines of MOR's comments earlier in this thread, I found them perhaps a little brusk. Despite this, I do actually feel MOR has hit the nail on the head with the last post as it was balanced and factual.
MOR you are right with your appraisal of the 'system'.
I feel though that a lot of crews and this is not restricted to flybe forget that your own treatment of others will be shown back in the way they treat you. I often "F" and "blind" when I have had a roster bugger about, but as soon as the phone is to my ear with crewing, I respect their predicament, discuss in a calm objective manner with no personal malice implied. I then generally gain the respect I deserve by giving it out in bucket loads first. Is this not part of being a manager in our own right?
BIGGLES02
25th Apr 2005, 23:30
MOR, you wasting your time trying to educate those who simply do not believe. I worked for JEA/BE/Flybe for 8 1/2yrs and know first hand how frustrating it is to work for a company that loathes it's employees.
I left after the fleet gen mgr jets threatened to demote me to first officer unless I returned to work from sick leave. The same gentleman even accused my Doctor of lying. Tosser. Unfortunately for him I recorded all telephone recordings and all face to face meetings. You can only claim selective memory for so long.
Reactionary management and little or no forward planning. It is a real shame, because it is a cracker airline, fantastic people at the bottom and the very top, all pushing in the same direction and wanting the same successful outcome but the channels of communication strangled by inept management. Could never understand their reluctance to address the problems head on. I was told on many occassions 'If I did'nt like it , then leave'. In the end that is just what I did. It would appear some 54 have also voted with their feet this year alone. What a waste of ones investment.
Flybe, you would never listen to me when I was there but here goes, one last time...... Get off your arses and give the employees some PROACTIVE management. You have tried it your way, think how unbeatable you would be by supporting your frontline troops. Listen to them, they know what is giong on. Give them the tools, they WILL deliver....I would have.
Smokie
26th Apr 2005, 00:09
You Bad Lad !;)
CaptAirProx
Thanks for that.
Is this not part of being a manager in our own right?
Of course it is, and I would never, ever advocate shouting at Crewing - it is usually counterproductive. Besides, if the change is legal, all you will get is "are you refusing this duty?", followed by a call from your Fleet Manager, which will leave you in no doubt whatsoever regarding your "obligations", and your future career progression should you refuse to comply.
BIGGLES02
I left after the fleet gen mgr jets threatened to demote me to first officer unless I returned to work from sick leave. The same gentleman even accused my Doctor of lying.
Now that sounds awfully familiar! Yes, that particular gentleman was the most inept excuse for a manager that I have ever seen. Totally confrontational, no tact or discretion, always willing to believe the worst about his crews. Rarely, if ever, supported any of his troops. Presided over some of the most ridiculous f*ck-ups I have ever seen (for example the Innsbruck fiasco). BALPA could tell you a number of horror stories about him. Not surprised he jumped (or was pushed).
think how unbeatable you would be by supporting your frontline troops. Listen to them, they know what is giong on. Give them the tools, they WILL deliver....I would have.
Me too.
I realise that at the moment it is just words on a piece of paper, but it seems that Jim French has finally heard the story of woe down at troop level, and seems to have been surprised! (Maybe he should read these threads a little more). However, he has approved an increase in personel in crewing..... will it be enough?
Will it bollox! They've introduced lots of managerial posts to help solve the problem. Big waste of the 'large amounts of money' they've put into it as far as I'm concerned. What they should really do is get rid of the one big problem, and get someone else in to clear up the devastation he's caused..........
Sorry to burst your bubble there Snigs, but JF has been told several times, at Open Channel meetings, how the troops feel. It isn't news to him. However, he has been in the invidious position of wanting to fix the problem, but being unable to justify doing so whilst there were a thousand other fires that needed putting out.
Also, they do keep a pretty close eye on what is said on these forums. Surprised I haven't been fired... ;)
It is often said that JF hates pilots. I don't think that is so, his focus has to be on making the company healthy, and then he can focus on other issues - but then those issues should be being looked after at fleet manager and Ops Director level for the most part. I know the Ops Director tries, but he is hamstrung by having to work to a budget. I personally think he gets a bad press, but I am sure few will share that view...
er82
I'm intrigued, who do you mean?
flybe.com
3rd May 2005, 13:29
MOR - ...remember the months leading up to the departure of the terminally useless Jet FM. There were a few people being hauled to EXT for disciplinaries because they had become so frustrated with the situation, they simply refused to take any more.
Yep, count me in on that one.
Additionally, I agree with everything you have said. Is it not obvious whom er82 is talking about.
Not to me, but then I'm pretty thick!!! :p
I'm assuming MW, but there are so many... where does one start... :}
carlos vandango
3rd May 2005, 19:06
ah yes the infamous ex Jet Fleet Manager.. tried the bully boy tactics on me before I left too. I felt it necessary to point out to him that the time for such tactics was BEFORE I had resigned, not after. A true unprofessional..but at least he was consisitent (at being unprofessional). Biggles speaks the truth..lets see if anyone's listening:hmm:
So how is the new jet fleet manager performing?
What perfect timing to start as the fleet manager
Have the recent problems at Flybe calmed down or are aircraft still being wet leased to cover shortages
Hmm, in response to those comments regarding my post, it seems (from your responses) that nothing is different to the management of other (non airline) companies that I've worked in!
It is such a shame, because there are so many simple and fundamental changes that they should heed that would make life so much better for everyone. Yes I'm relatively new to the company, and was hoping for a different scratched record, but alas, it seems that nothing changes!