Pairs Takeoffs in Taildraggers

[Arm out the window]

I've done numerous form takeoffs in tricycle undercarriage machines, but am a newby to the world of taildraggers, and was thinking that there could be some problems with swing in a formation takeoff.
Any words of wisdom from them's thats done it? Is it just as workable as for nosewheel types?

[Tarnished]

Stating the obvious, but unless you have the experience to give you the "honest" confidence that you can control your direction during a singleton take off in whatever crosswind you deem to be appropriate then I wouldn't be doing it. Also stating the obvious but start on a wide runway, and don't try keeping it tight until after you are airborne and cleaned up.

If you are at the stage in your tail dragger experience where every take off is a voyage of discovery then I'd wait a while. In my experience it would be the formation landing that would be the greater challenge

T

[soddim]

If you are the wingman in a taildragger with lots of torque just be very very careful with the left hand if and when you drop back a bit on a pairs take-off. Too much catchup can ruin your day!

Other than that, it's a piece of cake.

As for pairs landings - trust your leader. If he's like Tony Blair, land on your own.

[Axel-Flo]

Have to agree with the other posters above but in essence...apart from concentrating more on your leader (unless thats you-in which case do the same as every other take off only more smoothly) keeping straight is exactly the same in that you look ahead (glance ahead) and put the picture back to where you want it, the swing only varies with how fast you apply the power (or reduce it, or lift the tail up oh and amount of crosswind so a few things really) and you should be used to that before you try pairs take offs. At the end of the day it's far from insurmountable, our beefers always used to say "be there and cope!" As a stude of EFTS when it was the Swinderby Chipmouse Academy- Centreparks Attack Squadron) they let us have a bash after very few hours.....and it was a huge confidence boost and a bit of a hoot. (On checking my RAF Form 414...it was after a total flying time of 47 hours):cool:

[Arm out the window]

Thanks very much; replies appreciated.
I arrived a bit too late to experience the wonderful world of taildraggers in training, but will be doing a bit more in future.

[Dan Winterland]

Have done it myself a few times, but if someone groundloops, you're looking at a lot of scrap. You're much safer streaming. At te aforementioned centreof taildragger excellence, it was only the instructors who took off or landed in formation - I never felt comfortable doing either. We had one hairy moment once!

[John Farley]

Tarnished is right re building your singlton capabilities first.

If you must teach yourself then stream. Next time reduce the interval. Repeat until in the end you barely have nose to tail clearance. By then you should be comfortable with your abilities or have come to appreciate your limitations in safety.

[JagMate]

Come on Dan Winterland - any competant RAF (future) single-seat pilot took the formation phase of Swinderby in their stride. I remember the 'good ol days' well at the taildraggers tactical weapons unit. Anyone else there around September '92? My advice is to grit your teeth and get on with it.

[Wombat35]

Hi Mate,

Over here it's mainly 10 second streams, however I think that it's mainly due to the tendency of the Harvards to ground loop and the length of the runway in case of an RTO.

I would have a look at your risk management practice....

Low value aircraft vs High experience on type - Low risk (Okay)

High value aircraft vs Low experience - Medium risk (Hmmm do a stream over xx kts of X-wind or whatever)

As for swing issues, hard to say, I have never had a problem taking off (brake and then rudder) however have seen many ground loops on landing.... however, it's like getting bogged in the Bou' those who have and those who will :O so minimise your risk and it wont end in tears.

Have fun... at least you are in an aircraft and not one of those angry palm trees.

[sycamore]

A O T W,perhaps you could tell us what type(s) you are flying ?

[SSSETOWTF]

Two test pilots from the US Navy Test Pilot School died in a stream take-off in taildraggers (Extra 300s I think) a couple of years ago. Lead aborted (I believe it was something to do with too much torque too quickly and directional control difficulties, but don't quote me) and stopped on no 2's side of the runway. No radio call was made though, so no 2 rolled on time, raised the tail and got a face-full of lead's aircraft. No 2 tried to take-off early and fly over lead, but didn't quite have the speed. No 2's prop made a bit of a mess of lead's cockpit. RIP.

I don't recount the story to suggest that you shouldn't do it, but just make sure you think about what you're doing carefully and learn from others' mistakes.

[Arm out the window]

Thanks one and all, good words of wisdom.
Wombat 35, cheers ears, I hear you!

Sycamore, there's a local group here with a couple of mighty Winjeels, a Chippy and a Harvard as far as tail draggers go (maybe a Dak in the fullness of time...), and as I have a decent bit of form experience behind me I have been putting in a few bob's worth of input, but with hardly any tailwheel time I don't want to be shooting off my mouth too much about that side of it.

[rvusa]

Reference John Farley's post:-
My understanding was that, if you held the correct echelon position, relative movement was obvious and corrections could be applied as required. Dropping back was stressed as very bad due to increased risks from the lead aircraft turbulence/ wingtip vortex, especially with even a slight crosswind. The difficulty of seeing relative movement was also obvious from a distance, (danger of excessive overtake). I appreciate that what he was saying was the reverse of this but the end result is the same.
It was therefore, 'start from the correct echelon position and stay there, or, stream (5, 10 secs) and join up in the air.
Landing was achieved by keeping the echelon position, power on, until after the flare when lead would delay power off after the 'cut' call to give nose/tail separation.

Of course, it could be just my memory-----!