View Full Version : 1421 The year China discovered the world?

Ric Capucho
18th Apr 2005, 20:22
Hi All,

Busy as a bee reading this book. Anyone else read it? Reckon there's some truth in it, or is it just another Chariot of the Gods theory? Did Columbus know where he was going in 1491 'cos them Chinee got there 70 years earlier and slipped him a map, or did he indeed simply stumble across the West Indies? Was Columbus even Italian?

(Did you ever wonder what an amazing coincidence it was that the West Indies has a counterpart in the East called the East Indies? And they're both cricket-playing regions? Spooky or what?)

Well, anyways, who's for the lost-Italian theory? Who's for the giant Chinese trade ships? Who's for one of Henry the Navigator's lads?


tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 20:26
Thunk the accepted wisdom now was them Scandyhooligans got there first?

18th Apr 2005, 20:28
who's for the lost-Italian theory

Are we talking about the 6 Nations Rugby here?

Onan the Clumsy
18th Apr 2005, 20:36
Los Titalian ... is that some kind of Marriachi band?

Ric Capucho
18th Apr 2005, 20:37
Scandy 1 (looking around himself, newly landed in Vinland): "Where the fcuk are we?"

Scandy 2: "Dunno, but look at all these grapes".


Scandy 1:"Oooh, look! A native! YOO-HOO NATIVE! WHERE THE FCUK ARE WE?"

Native American (with the timeless wisdom of the noble savage): "How".

Scandy 1: "Erm, you speak geordie?"

Native American: "How."

Scandy 2: "Lemme try: parlez-vous geordie? GEORDIE? PARLEZ-VOUS?"

Native American: "How."

Scandy 1: "Fcuk, I think we've found a daft one... lessee if that one there's any brighter ones about".


Scandy 2 (to the lads back on the ship): "So, I think we can safely say that we twelve viking fellers in our small wooden boat have just discovered 5 million indiginous native americans, and very grateful they should be indeed. And I think if we look a bit further south, we'll find another 30 million living in one of the most advanced civilisations in the world. Perhaps we could get our arses down there and teach them how to, erm, wear furs and wave axes and stuff".

(back in the wigwam)

Native American: "You'll never guess what I found washed up on the beach this morning... a right hairy yob, who couldn't even speak french properly."


18th Apr 2005, 20:45
I'm still laughing, mate! :ok:

tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 20:46
Interestingy when those pilgrim fathers landed on Plymouth who do they bump into first? a Indian who spoke perfect English.
True that is ,not supprising really, even aliens from Proxima Centari apparently speak perfect English,but with a American accent of course.
Supprised yer havent brung up the Piri Reis(sp?) Map Mr Ric,yer know the one, based ona photy taken from 2000,miles up by aliens 20,000 years ago.
Then of course we have the Pyramids.

18th Apr 2005, 20:47
What? The Geordies have got the Pyramids? :ooh:

18th Apr 2005, 20:48
Only in their tea cups. Calms them down so I'm told.

tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 20:51
Of course haven't yer heard that song,
"See the pyramids along the Tyne,dee dee dum"?
And why do you think the natives of South Shields are called Sand Dancers?

18th Apr 2005, 20:56
See the pyramids along the Tyne,dee dee dum"?Nope. Can't say I have. :confused:

And I don't know - why are the natives of South Shields called Sand Dancers?

tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 21:06
You suprise me Mr Casablanc,tiz a old Patsy Cline number.

See the pyramids along the Tyne
Watch the sunrise on a tropic isle
Just remember darlin' all the while
You belong to me

See the market place in Old Algiers
Send me photographs and souvenirs
Just remember when a dream appears
You belong to me

I'll be so alone without you
Maybe you'll be lonesome too, and blue

Natives of South Shields were thusly called because said town had a large population of Yemeni Arabs,mostly seafaring folk, prolly would not be concidered politically correct nowadays

18th Apr 2005, 21:10
Ahhh - Patsy Cline. A tad before my time, Mr D. :}

Regarding the Sand Dancers - that I did not know. I think it sounds quite nice, actually.

Wilson, Kepple and Betty weren't from South Shields, were they? :ooh:

tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 21:20
Hmmm, not sure,quite possibly one of the Betty's was, because there apparently were a lot of Betty's over the years.

Here yer go, funny one can't find a picky of them actually doing the Sand Dance.


Another Spooky thing,whenever I tried to form a mental picture of Mr Capucho, as one does,one pictures him clad in the Wilson and Kepple costume doing the Sand Dance
Of course it could be worse,one could have had a mental picky of him clad in Betty's costume

Ric Capucho
18th Apr 2005, 21:40
Tis the Piri Reis map that the bloke with the 1421 Chinese theory uses all the time to back up his suspicions.

People reckon it's an amazing map, which 'accurately' protrays the atlantic shoreline 100 years or so before anyone was actually supposed to have navigated it.

Not sure, meself, 'cos that map looks a bit out of scale on both latitude and longitude. Not sure that any true sailor would have scribbled that one, 'cos sailors were hot on latitude (easy peasy by star or sun), even if longitude was always a bugger to work out. Sooooo, the Piri Reis map should be to scale on at least one direction, methinks.


18th Apr 2005, 22:00
The Irish discovered the new world did ye not know that?

see here


or for more bonkers stuff, such as was columbus jewish, etc see here


tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 22:11
Many strange paperbacks have hit the shelves based on the Piri Reis Map,everything from us being created by aliens to where Atlantis was, frinstance some claim it shows Antartica clear of ice.
Personelly one thinks we got around a lot more in the days before folks started writing history down than the Archeoligists allow.
How else can one explain that tribe way up the Amazon that knows the secret of how to make stotty cake,? this was sacred knowledge known only to the elders of the Geordie tribe.


19th Apr 2005, 02:32
Drapes, every kid in the world knows how to make snotty cake.. :yuk:

19th Apr 2005, 11:28
Good book, that 1421. Knowing the Chinese I wonder what took them so long.

The Irish discovered the new world did ye not know that?

We had the good taste to keep it a secret, but.:O

Given that they were Irish monks, the conversation back at the teepee must have gone like this,
"How Tonto, you meet white men in leather boat on beach?"
"Yes, Two Dogs-your bum still sore?"

19th Apr 2005, 13:00
Tis the Piri Reis map that the bloke with the 1421 Chinese theory uses all the time to back up his suspicions. The Piri Reis America map was drawn according the information Reis got from a former Columbus pilot. All Piri did was compiling information and other maps available at that time and some go back to 400 BC. He has never seen the land himself.

Menzies' "1421" falls into the category "The Da Vince Code" [email protected] The infamous chinese anchors still have to be found.

19th Apr 2005, 13:11
I just love it how Lexxy has to say things twice.:ok:

Chinese can't have discovered America otherwise they'd all be talking in numbers.

" You wan ow many number 16's?? wiv or no flyed lice"

19th Apr 2005, 13:22
Read it, and must say it was interesting, until the author tried to link in current DNA mapping with the possible Chinese fleet movements :confused:

Come on - Korean DNA in the Outer Hebrides :suspect:

Then insisting that it would have been possible to sail a wooden ship fleet, from the Atlantic, north of Russia to the Pacific - :ooh:
Not even Drapes could have done that :ok:

Well, he was an ex-RN sub driver so you might be able to forgive him some eccentricity :yuk:

tony draper
19th Apr 2005, 13:55
And none of this explains the quick frozen Mamoths.

19th Apr 2005, 14:04
Or the special fried rice......

Ric Capucho
19th Apr 2005, 14:13
Well, Mr Borg, it *is* possible to sail from the North Atlantic to the Bering Strait by taking the 'short-cut' across the top of Russia... it's just bloody hard to do.

The first documented successful attempt was done by some Russki in the 19th Century, and it turned out he got very lucky as he managed to break his way from one lucky-sod gap in the ice-field to the next, and somehow got through in the short summer season before the whole kit and caboodle froze solid. Subsequent attempts all ended up with the ship frozen into the ice-cap for the duration of the winter: and when the ice melted, the crushed ship then hits the seabed with a thunk.

Not a recommended route.

Sooooooo, methinks the Chinee, even if they did get that far, (soddin' unlikely) wouldn't have had enough time to do the full trip between 1421-23... especially if they had to rebuild their ship during the spring thaw.

("Thor? THOR! I'm tho thor I can hardly pith!")


19th Apr 2005, 15:10
The first documented successful attempt was done by some Russki in the 19th Century

Sorry Mr.Capucho, the Dutchies were there before (as so many times in the Golden Centuries) as they made three attempts to find a North-East passage to Asia by Willem Barentz already in the mid 1590's...


tony draper
19th Apr 2005, 15:19
One has sailed waters around Baffin Island, tiz not a place forra young lad unless he is sitting on something that is fashioned from good honest steel and weighs at least 3000 tons.
Wooden ships indeed, they want their noggins looked at.
Slightly off topic, the Tall ships are returning to the Tyne this year,they will be unable to tie up at Newcastle Quay this time because of that daft feckwit millenium bridge the fluffys caused to be built.

19th Apr 2005, 15:45
Wot? You couldn't find a picture of Wilson, Kepple and Betty in full flow, Mr D??? :ooh:

Be my guest....... (http://www.peopleplayuk.org.uk/images/objects/cropped2/300/sch200302101130-010.jpg) :ok:

Ric Capucho
19th Apr 2005, 16:57
Barents was the first to get himself into the Barents Sea, Captain Chaos, But twasn't anywhere close to navigating the full length of the North East Passage, and certainly not in one season.

A Captain Wiggins (a Brit) came close in the 1860s, as did a Swedish chap called Nordenskiold, who was actually the guest of a Russian expedition composing of a whaler and a steamer called the Lena. Twas the Lena that ended up over-wintering trapped in ice, and in effect drifted (West to East) through the North East Passage trapped in the ice-floes. About 1890 some Russian whaler blokey did it in one season (again West to East) and freely admitted himself he'd been a lucky git.

Twas in the Russian Hydrographic expeditions (steamers ice-breakers) between 1910-1915 that the passage really was navigated in one season, and that turned out to be uphill, i.e. East to West. Summat to do with the fact that as the season ends, the passage freezes from East to West, so uphill's the way after all.

Reference: a book I read yonks ago about them Hydrographic expeditions, Comrade.

Highly unlikely the Chinese could have done it in a junk, and certainly not in a junk that can't effectively tack.


19th Apr 2005, 17:19
Ah, but some of those junks were blimmin' big!

Also, a look at a map of the Pacific Ocean currents is quite revealing.

It's at least feasible if nothing more, IMHO.

20th Apr 2005, 13:17
There may be an Irish legend but the Welsh ACTUALLY did discover America (http://www.rense.com/general28/weks.htm) in 562...fact

HG :ok:

tony draper
20th Apr 2005, 13:51
Actualy, twas the Mongolians about 15,000 years earlier.

Ric Capucho
20th Apr 2005, 14:45
Mr Caslance,

Yes, it's very feasible that the Chinese sailed about much of the Pacific nearest to them, and the Indian Ocean, and in fact it would have taken a lot of restraint for them not to bother, considering those waters lap against their shores.

But that daft book goes and mixes up a lot of fact and likelihood, with silly fiction, and probably undermines the credibility of the Chinese issue entirely: Chinese junks really did explore most or all of the Indonesian archipelago in search of nasty squidgy things to eat as 'luxuries', such as sea slugs and stuff. Their getting to India and even East Africa is fully documented, so nowt to create a revolution there. But what about the rest?

They most probably did bump into Australia at the far extremity of their Indonesian beaten track, although New Zealand's too far off to be believable. The Aleutian Isles? Probably, as they're a hop, skip and jump from Hokkaido island. Alaska? Maybe, if they put their wooly mitts on, but why would they bother? Western Canada? Maybe, but it'd be a buggah to get back. Western USA, Mexico, South America? Nah, not in junks incapable of tacking.

Why not investigate that lot, and keep to the evidence? Why write a book claiming what's likely of the above (which is fair enough) and then buggah it up by claiming all sorts of ridiculous things in addition? Might as well write one saying (shock, horror)the Portuguese were the first Europeans to reach South America (very likely, as it happens) and then also claim they landed on the Moon a week later, only they took the long way, and visited Mars first.

Daft daft daft.


20th Apr 2005, 16:48
Jings! I only said it was feasible!!! :ooh:

tony draper
20th Apr 2005, 17:36
That is the way of such books Mr Ric ,they drag you in with a few feasable but astonding snippets then the authors imagination soars.

Darth Nigel
20th Apr 2005, 19:04
There may be an Irish legend but the Welsh ACTUALLY did discover America in 562...fact

The Welsh discovered America... now that explains a lot of things.

And remember:
"It's not that they're wicked or evil or bad,
it's not being English that makes them so mad"

20th Apr 2005, 22:59
...not wanting to rant on, Darth, but if not for the Welsh America would never have Jack Daniel's, Yale University or for that matter...Independence!

20 per cent of the Pilgrim Fathers of America were Welsh and that almost 50 per cent of the signatories to the American Declaration of Independence were also Welsh, as was President Thomas Jefferson himself

... now that explains a lot of things[

21st Apr 2005, 04:02
I do not believe the chinese made it to New Zealand because there is no evidence that they did. Also, I can't imagine anyone just visiting New Zealand and not wanting to stay.

australia on the other hand...

Ric Capucho
21st Apr 2005, 15:19
I knew the Welsh could swim (they swum the Irish Sea, didn't they?) but I can't imagine they could swim the Atlantic.

As regards the Declaration of Independence, I think yer'll find it was the same bolshy Welshman that had to write his name down umpteen times until he spelt it correctly.

No pop at yer, Mr Caslance, I was agreeing with you before waxing lyrical (well ranting, to be fair) about the possibilities of the Chinese getting further afield than Oz.

Gavin Menzies is an ex-RN sub commander, according to the dust-cover on said tome. Methinks men shouldn't be cooped up like that, not if you don't expect them to go a bit strange.

That's the thing with these nautical types; too much time on their hands, and too little sex. Tain't natural for a man.