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Alpha Leader
18th Apr 2005, 02:31
Wouldn't the Chinese be better advised to get their own school text books in order, rather than get hot under the collar about the Japanese?

They would then learn that more Chinese people perished under the rule of the mad Mao Tse Tung (or was that "Dung"?) than under any foreign occupation.

:yuk:

BahrainLad
18th Apr 2005, 03:41
Very good piece in the NYTimes about this today....essentially the Chinese have such limited opportunity for demonstration that these protests are more anti-Government than anti-Japan. The government is allowing the population to let off steam, steam which is in no way a product of anti-Japanese sentiment amongst the population. It could as easily be a anti-<insert UN member here> protest.

Capt.KAOS
18th Apr 2005, 08:18
Don't think so at all BL, anti-Japanese feelings are still widespread in China and Korea. It has more to do with China positioning themselves as the main power broker in the region and challenging Japan. Also they are quite displeased by Japan's bid to be a member of the UN Security Council. Must say the Chinese strategy is rather clumsy and raise questions about the Chinese government's political maturity.

Grandpa
18th Apr 2005, 20:41
...are not an excuse for Japan to continue ignoring their responsibility and war crimes in WWII.

The fact is Japan was never de-HiroHito-ised (sorry! I didn't find another word) after defeat, as Germany was denazified.

In France where German occupants did a lot of mischiefs (even if it's less than they did in other Europe countries), it would be unthinkable for us to rise against German people, because we have seen Willi Brand kneeing in Warsaw, we perfectly know that young German are tought at schools about their country's responsibility and it's obvious that German governments in the last decades have done their job to eradicate Nazism.

In Japan, where war criminals enjoyed high situations after the war (remember the commander of Unit 731 was appointed managing Director of Blood transfusion company to quote only this one), where Hiro-Hito who knew what his troops were doing all over Asia never tried to stop the massacres nor was questionned or punished for that, the chances are racist Japanese supremacist could take power and the citizens of all east Asia countries are not ready to shud up and say:

"OK! Japan has done nothing wrong, Nankin 300 000 people massacred raped, tortured was only an incident, a play where soldiers were competing how many prisoners heads the could cut with their sabre."

tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 20:59
Quite right Grandpa yet we still get the fluffys moaning about the use of nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there are plenty people in that area would have liked to have seen Japan nuked every day for the next twenty years, and with good reason.

Maxflyer
18th Apr 2005, 21:03
there are plenty people in that area would have liked to have seen Japan nuked every day for the next twenty years, and with good reason.

So easy to say Mr. Draper.

Does that mean that the generations since who have suffered genetic abnormalities are guilty of the war crimes committed by their predecessors?

I must be turning into a fluffy based on your measurement of feeling towards other people.

tony draper
18th Apr 2005, 21:15
I visited Japan in the early sixties, quite prepard to hate em all, I had a uncle who had been a guest of theirs, but of course it was impossible to hate them.
I still think the use of the Atomic bomb was fully justifed,but that is a different subject and has been covered on Jet blast and if you wish to speak of generation,what about the generations who were never born, in China of Korea or anywhere else the Japanese held sway because the generation who would have bore them were butched by them.

Maxflyer
18th Apr 2005, 21:48
I still think the use of the Atomic bomb was fully justifed,but that is a different subject and has been covered on Jet blast and if you wish to speak of generation,what about the generations who were never born, in China of Korea or anywhere else the Japanese held sway because the generation who would have bore them were butched by them.


Please! Whilst not always agreeing with your viewpoint on subjects covered on Jet Blast you have always struck me as someone capable of debating a point with factual and substantive arguments. To argue a point by referring to unborn generations I think you are struggling. I have never felt the use of the A-Bomb to be unjustified. It stopped Japanese aggression in its tracks and brought about the end of the war in the pacific, so in my opinion - yes it was justified. I just feel that making a nuke 'em all statement is somewhat insensitive. In no way do I make any form of excuse for the Japanese treatment of POW's and civillians during that period or do I agree that the Generals should have been allowed to revert back to being heads of industry, but that is what happened, surely the debate should be based on facts, not on what could have been.

AntiCrash
19th Apr 2005, 02:59
According to NPR 9National Public Radio) this morning here in the States. The chinese are really miffed over Japan's cozy relationship with Taiwan. The rest is just for show. Who Knows for sure?

West Coast
19th Apr 2005, 06:09
"Chinese government's political maturity"

I think it speaks of established political methods. I do agree however they are not ready for the débutante ball. I also think they want things on their terms and not on expectations of how a western guv would approach the subject.


"It stopped Japanese aggression in its tracks and brought about the end of the war in the pacific"

Don't discount the entry of the USSR in to the Pacific war as also speeding the war to its conclusion.

Grandpa
19th Apr 2005, 08:42
It's another debate Tony!

Caslance
19th Apr 2005, 15:53
A reasonable point, West Coast, dented only by the actual date on which the USSR declared war on the Japanese Empire......:ok:

Capt.KAOS
19th Apr 2005, 16:16
FJR and Truman's rigid demand for "unconditional" surrender caused 100'000's of additional deaths in WW2....

(2 days after Hiroshima, Cas?)

Caslance
19th Apr 2005, 17:16
More or less, Captain.

Depending on where you are in relation to the Date Line. :)

Why would a Soviet invasion of relatively remote Manchuria bring Japan to her knees when the US invasion of the Home Islands (Okinawa, etc) did not?

No. It was the mind-numblingly shocking realisation that the USA could project overwhelming and devastating force right into the heart of Japan and that they had no effective counter or remedy - the ultimate loss of face, to the military mindset - that brought about the Japanese surrender.

Onewordanswer
20th Apr 2005, 05:29
I dunno what do ya reckon if THIS (http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/73028.htm) happened in your backyard? Expecting a sorry or compensation would you? :yuk:

Alpha Leader
20th Apr 2005, 05:58
My point was to highlight the hypocrisy involved in the Chinese government's sensitivities, which appear to be overly selective.

Expert estimates put the number of Chinese who died as a direct result of Mao's megalomaniac policies (notably the famine triggered off by his "Great Leap Backwards" ) at around 20 million. With such a human cost, Mao ranks right up there with Hitler and Stalin. So, why are the Chinese not getting hot under the collar about the cruelty suffered under their own regime (remember, the communist party is still in charge, despite its horrific mismanagement of the country).

The Chinese government has, by the way, only allowed a select few victims of Japanese war atrocities to files law suits against the Japanese government, preferring to use the thus unresolved issue as a constant policitical tool.

Onewordanswer
20th Apr 2005, 06:13
So you think they should be having anti-Mao protests instead?:hmm:
China's GDP (gross domestic product)grew by 9.5 percent to 3.1355 trillion yuan (379 billion US dollars) in the first quarter of this year, and the growth rate was 0.3 percent lower than a year earlier, the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) said.
remember, the communist party is still in charge, despite its horrific mismanagement of the country

Alpha Leader
20th Apr 2005, 07:34
Onewordoneanswer: it is only since Deng Xiao Ping (who threw Mao's stone age economics overboard) that China has prospered (albeit it certainly not managed to eradicate widespread poverty).

I am saying that if the Chinese people should feel bad about their suffering in the past, they should be objective and aim their anger at those who caused the worst suffering. This is in no way meant to excuse the acts of the Japanese, but the fact remains that Chinese rulers have obviously been far crueller to their own people than any foreigners.

It is similar to the situation in Russia, where they (rightly) harbour ill feelings towards the Germans for what happened in WWII, but again the fact remains that Stalin was a far worse and deadlier enemy than the Germans were.:uhoh:

Grandpa
20th Apr 2005, 20:02
.............the difference is the Germans made apologies and took measures to make sure young ones are taught about their parents crimes and know where racist ideology can lead peoples...........while Japan never went through this hard but necessary process, and young Japanese have still respect for Hiro-Hito and ignore their nation's crimes in the past!

2R
20th Apr 2005, 22:51
They live in interesting times.
Perhaps the Asians will find an Asian solution to an Asian problem.


:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

NZLeardriver
21st Apr 2005, 00:07
Grandpa you are wrong.
Japan has apologised repeatedly and given over 3 trillion yen in aid to China alone, (as well as plenty to other countries). Most of this is not reported to the Chinese public.
Young Japanese do not have respect for Hirohito like you say. The current emperor is treated as a very definite figure-head with limited respect.
Young and old Japanese alike have shame and embarrassment for what happened.

I have been researching this for an on-going debate in the Far East forum on the Japanarama thread.

BenThere
21st Apr 2005, 01:06
I tend to side with the Japanese. If they can be hammered on by the hoi-poloi like Americans, they must be doing the right thing.

Onewordanswer
21st Apr 2005, 03:47
Geez NZlear pull your head out of your a*se I don't remember any ANZACs getting a penny, and the Korean comfort women who protest every wednesday in Seoul for the last 10 years don't seem satisfied. Where does your crap info come from sounds like you may be a product of the new text books in Nippon:yuk:

NZLeardriver
21st Apr 2005, 10:10
What of my info is crap Oneword? All of it is researched fact.

Ontariotech
21st Apr 2005, 11:24
Seems to be alot of :yuk: going on with very little :8 so maybe we should all get some :zzz: before we start to have a riot :} :ouch: on our hands that in turn leads to alot of :{ and more :confused: being asked than answered. :ok:

Grandpa
21st Apr 2005, 11:35
Are you joking?

Japanese government only did reluctant moves toward victims of Hiro-Hito's crimes, and that only when under pressure.

Every year Japan Prime Minister is paying respect to Yakuzuni shrine and cemetary where a lot of war criminals are buried.

I don't see where is the interest at all to disregard these facts: Japan authorities don't do anything to put their far right Nationalist in anger.

Paterbrat
21st Apr 2005, 17:40
What would seem to be increasingly self evident is the fact that the new world superpower looks like becoming China. In light of all the flack the US has had to put up with over their reign it will be interesting to see if and should the Chinese take over that position, whether or not they will act in a like manner or perhaps a little more robustly as they have demonstrated they are quite capable of doing.

Kiting for Boys
21st Apr 2005, 17:53
Mao was responsible for 40 million civilian deaths but most were killed by mistake.

He deliberately killed 10 million.

Good references here http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

Caslance
21st Apr 2005, 17:54
An interesting question indeed, Paterbrat.

On the positive side the world may become a more stable place with two superpowers, both with a strong interest in maintaining equilibrium and the status quo.

On the other hand, we could see the emergence of a Second Cold War with the Pacific cast as the buffer zone rather than Europe.

Interesting times ahead, for sure.

Jerricho
21st Apr 2005, 18:05
the Pacific cast as the buffer zone rather than Europe.

And with Little Johnny Howard at the helm in Australia as Dubya's "Sheriff of the Pacific"........ :rolleyes:

Al E. Vator
22nd Apr 2005, 04:41
The Japs are a disgrace.

The begrudgingly admit regret, yet they won't properly compensate the thousands of women abducted and repeatedly raped (where did this whitewashing PC term 'comfort women' come from)?

The right wing fascists rewrite history to absolve themselves befirore they die. Their PM (with the silly hair) annually visits the ware cemetary to honour the pigs who defiled so much of Asia.

Go to Nanjing, see what they did. See the glee with which they tortured the Chinese and there can be no doubt the Japanese as a nation need to do so much more to heal wounds they opened. For the Japs to actually ask for compensation for damage to their embassies is the height of hypocrisy.

I fly regularly to Japan and love the people, their cleanliness and their ATC! However none of that makes up for their shameful actions in the not-too-distant past.

ORAC
22nd Apr 2005, 06:51
Japanese PM apologises for war (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/22/china.japan.koizumi/index.html)

Onewordanswer
22nd Apr 2005, 07:18
Thats excellent news!...........Now how about reflecting historical fact accurately as a nation in the school system and compensating victims still occuring less than 2 years ago? If its genuine:E

ORAC
22nd Apr 2005, 08:28
The row over Japans past & future - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4449005.stm)

OneWorld22
22nd Apr 2005, 09:30
I'm heading off to China in the next few days, will be interesting to gauge the reaction this time.

Though one is advised never bring up politics n China. You'd never believe how the Chinese see history and their place in the world!

Caslance
22nd Apr 2005, 15:51
You'd never believe how the Chinese see history and their place in the world! I would - it's a pity more people don't, though.

Scratch the "communist" veneer and it's still The Middle Kingdom underneath.

WhatsaLizad?
22nd Apr 2005, 17:16
Another little theory for discussion.

Personally, I believe the senior goverment leaders of both China and Japan don't consider past atrocities, and could really care less about who did what to who 60+ years ago. Brutality in war has been going on for eons. What I believe has happened is a simple exploitation of the past for Diplomatic negotiating leverage.

The timing of the issue fits perfectly with Japan's announcement of drilling for gas on the disputed water border. I've read also that China has shadowed and "bumped" Japanese seismic ships as the hunted for gas fields in the area. Both sides have been positioning themselves in this resource fight and it's hard to believe the China protests are an innocent grassroots movement given the immediate shutdown of any other type of protest in the country.

con-pilot
22nd Apr 2005, 19:12
Well I guess that I left China just in time!

When we left Hangzhou, after 2 weeks in china, there was no anti-Japan mood.

But this is not the first time I have left a country that things started happening!:E

One world, I can't believe that you will be in China right after I left, we could have had those beers! Where you going to be?

Grandpa
22nd Apr 2005, 19:35
...in front of all Asian leaders, including Chinese, for all atrocities against China and Korea (If what I heard is true, he forgot Indonesia, Burmah, Viet-Nam).

These excuses, coming allways under pressure, and only adressed to the people who are protesting in the loudest way don't seem sincere to me.

airship
22nd Apr 2005, 20:23
But this is not the first time I have left a country that things started happening! :E Just who are you flying around these days con-pilot? ;)

I do believe that the Dalai Lama may be able to intermediate in the current crisis... :8 If he can persuade Japan to say "We're very very very sorry" and give up all claims in the extended economic zones, China may return Tibet to the Tibetans... :ok:

...and everyone can live happily ever after! :}

con-pilot
23rd Apr 2005, 09:35
Naw, that was me old job airship.

Current job above-board and all that.

2R
23rd Apr 2005, 22:28
Why stop at WW2 and those attrocities ,How far back do you want to take the apology game.When will the Chinese apologize for the Boxer rebellion and the slaughters commited against foreigners and their own people.
Those bloody vikings should bring back some of the lovlies that they stole ?:} :}

OneWorld22
24th Apr 2005, 01:39
Jeez con that's a pity. I'll be in a few places, Beijing, Shanghai and Chengdu first then Shenzhen and Hong Kong. I hope to get to the beautiful Hainan island as well.

It's all very strange, I've been here a few times and never picked up any anti-Japanese sentiment here from the locals.....

As a matter of interest, the BBC News website is the only website you cannot access fron China. Everything else, no problem, all newspapers, NBC, CBS etc. Wonder why? The Beeb must ask awkward questions the Chinese don't like or else it must hav been over the coverage of Tianamen or something.

Grandpa
24th Apr 2005, 08:25
..........He was a renown History professor at Tokyo University, researched about Unit 731 which experienced biologic WMDs on war prisoners in Harbin, China since 1937.

He said:"Unit 731 ghosts are haunting our conscience.They are alive, but we prefer to ignore them."
hadded, just before he died, revisionism was systemetic since the 50s, because it was "accepted en encouraged by Japanese State."

Zenji Abe survived WWII (he was a pilot in Pearl Harbour attack). In 2001 he said: After defeat our country turned the page to forget. But how was it possible to forget? In 1941, inside JAF we were nicknamed "Hitler's Boys". Hitler was respected in Japan too."..................." If I offer my testimony, it's to allow my country to learn from the past. But nobody listens to me. Japanese media avoid me. My country ignores his shamefull and painfull past."

It's true that many Japanese are struggling for the truth about their country's History, and they have to face the gang of far right nationalist eager to prize colonial and war past of Japan:

Japan film "Pride" produced in1998 by Toei Studio and released in 145 cinemas depicted General Hideki Tojo (.........war criminal) as a hero who "freed Asia from western domination."

In 1995, a Commission for History in Liberal Democrat Party( who has the power in Japan now ) concluded :" War in Great Eastern Asia was not an invasion war but a self defence one to free Asia."

Since then a campaign was launched to spread this distorted vision of History.