Extortionate ATNS Charges

[birdlady]

Good evening ladies and gentlemen

Just a quickie here. Have any of you heard of the new ATNS fees that they have brought out here in SA??? Absolutely ridiculous to say the least. This is really going to kill the GA industry here. Please bear with me here as my computer is acting the maggot again so cant provide the direct link but more info can be found at www.avcom.co.za under the general forum.
Hardly anyone knows about this unless you read this forum so thought you guys might be interested.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[birdlady]

got some more info for you here that might explain it a bit better - computer is finally working a bit better now :\ :\ :\
The new fees will basically include the following:
1. take off or landing fee from every ACSA airfield you use
2. TMA charge
3. Charge for distance you fly according to the distance on the flight plan
The fee will be according to a/c weight and anything below 1200kg will be exempt unless flying for Jhb int, Ct int or Dbn int.

An example of the new fees: a flight from Port Elizabeth to Lansaria is nearly R250 :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[krobar]

Wealth tax, those who fly can afford to cough up some more, right? LOL
Sounds like we'll be looking at Mozambiquecan type fees soon...:mad:

[REAL ORCA]

Now that might just keep the PC's out of the the circuit at peak times at Cape Town. If you still want to fly at peak times, be prepared to pay the same as the big boys. Make sense to me!

[birdlady]

Orca - Please tell me your just winding me up :* :* :* So you mean to tell me that all the training a/c out there must pay the same as the big boys eventhough we dont have the luxury of passing on the charges to the Pax. How do you think its going to affect safety????? People will not be broadcasting on a transponder or radio or filing flight plans to avoid these ridiculous charges. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[126,7]

You actually think that people are going to compromise themselves and others to save on nav and approach fees by not talking or squawking.. I sincerely hope that the folks out there are professional enough not to do that, even if they're just ppls.

[VivB]

126,7
Yes there are people out there like that, believe it or not!! Anything to save some money.... :uhoh:

[kahuna]

Similar systems has been introduced into many other countrys... Unfortunitly governments are adopting a USER PAYS approach to all levels of aviation.

[REAL ORCA]

Birdlady

You dont find light aircraft doing training at Jo'burg at peak times. The same should be the case at other big centres like Cape Town and Durban. Fisantekraal is around the corner and a better bet. Obviously nobody can force you to use an alternate airfield for training/departures, but they can make you pay for the privilege of using a particular airfield.

[ASD]

REAL ORCA, hi there - i agree completely with what you saying, u wanna train at FACT pay the premium....

However, the problem around Cape Town area is that there is no where else to train - yes ok FAFK, but that really is not a well maintained airfield and it might have its own frequency but certainly doesnt have any controlled airspace around it.

What we need in Cape Town is the equivalent of a mini FAGC or FAGM airport. Get some controlled airspace over a decent airfield and all the light a/c would be more than happy to move on... but where do they go...

If only FAYP would allow light a/c to train there, would be added benefit to both them and the light a/c but we all know that will never happen.

I wonder who owns FADX, right in the D200, wow would be a great little spot if that airfield was improved and given a little control tower?

Alas, the time will come when no more light a/c will be allowed to fly into FACT and then what happens???

Somehow somewhere someone should be planning for another or upgraded airfield in the Cape Town area. We really do need it.

[Tiger Bob]

Well we can see who sits in his airliner and has forgotten how much it costs to fly.

And I suppose the PE PC's (as you call them) should go to Uitenhage, and the George guys to Plett and the East London light aircraft to Bisho. And where do the Kimberly guys go during the peak hours (the 10 minutes when there is one airline in the CTR)

Get some information on the tariff structure and then make some informed comments on its equity.

If they pay the same fees then I assume you are prepared to hold somewhere for the PC. Airlines get preference because they pay the big bucks. Light aircraft orbit, divert, wait and hold. For this they only want to pay small bucks. Even if they are PPLs, CPLs or ATPS.

[REAL ORCA]

The guys in Kimberly stay where the are!!!:} :}

[Pavlov]

Real Orca,

If you are REALLY interested in the survival of General Aviation and the abilty of fellow pilots to practice the activity of their choice then go to http://www.atns.co.za/4_7_atns_calculator_20050418/calculator.html
and run a few examples flying ROUTES in an aircraft weighing more than 1201kg. You will notice in many cases an increase of more than a 1000% (not a typing error - one thousand) in fees. It does not require a economical genius to realise the impact on General Aviation and Aviation as a whole.
It seems that a few on this forum have already forgotten their roots.

Best..

[Commander 690]

You actually think that people are going to compromise themselves and others to save on nav and approach fees by not talking or squawking.. I sincerely hope that the folks out there are professional enough not to do that, even if they're just ppls.

YES, Fly low level and talk to no one:yuk: :yuk:

If the jet and turbine jocks want ppls to pay the same fees then we want the same level of service


I want to join the "BIG" boys at FAJS and do my crash and dash there vs FALA, FAGM,FAGC.......

Why not Kill GA and make us dependant of AL flying:mad: :E

ATNS and some of the attitudes here make me :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:


690:mad: :mad:

[krobar]

Training pilots need to get used to controlled airspace, and chasing them all to little deserted airfields is not gonna be good for the industry in the long run.
But hey, who cares about tommorrow, when we can make money today???
Africa, gotta luv it...

[Pavlov]

What is of great concern about this matter is the fact that most are uniformed about the quantum of the increased tariffs. What is of greater concern is the fact that Government and ATNS are uninformed about the long term impact of trying to "force" the policy of "User Pays" in a unique (South African) situation.

Compromising SAFETY is ALREADY an issue. There are already instances of "scud running" and airspace busting by those who now view the system as illegitimate. This is clearly not acceptable. Since the effectiveness of TCAS is ultimately depedant on the premise that transponders are switched on, and they are now intentionally switched off to avoid being billed on route, the airlines are now facing a new threat to their safety.
The cost issue of flying in the circuit at Cape Town is only one of MANY problem areas.

It is clear that the implementation of the new tariffs was a over hasty reaction on the part of ATNS to accomodate policy that was not properly researched.
What some of the posts on this thread do not acknowledge is that transponders are not switched off purely to save the paying the excessive fees, it is also a form of RESISTING, albeit the wrong avenue.

Therefore we are faced with an unacceptable and dangerous situation for fare paying passengers amonst others, which can be directly attributed to the failure of the system which is supposedly there to provide a safe enviroment. (one of many objectives)

If you are interested to be informed then go to http://www.awsa.co.za

Best..

[maxrated]

Comander 690, I agree totally, I will endevour to encourage every GA aircraft with any inflight problem , no matter how trivial, to declare and emergency and divert to FAJS and block the active runway for as long as they can causing as much headache to ATNS as posible, might as well gets ones money's worth.....and it would be my sincere desire that at that moment REAL ORCA will be the one sitting in his ivory towered airliner being inconvenienced as he sits in the holding pattern waiting for his seriously revised approach time to arrive.

REAL ORCA, I am incredulous that someone of your standing in SA aviation can be so insensitve to the needs and pressures exerted on GA aviation in South Africa.
Did you never come through the GA aviation scene on your way up your aviation career ????? or are you one of those people who just metamorphisised out of a silk cocoon and found yourself magically in the left hand seat of a 747 with 4 gold stripes attached to your wrists ???? Self rightious tw@t !!!

Moving right along....
Acording to SA law , monopoly's are illigal, could ATNS constitute a monopoly and can they be sued for this ???

I see that according to their latest advert in the Airnews magazine they refer to themselves as the "prefered supplier of ATNS servies in South Africa", ja right , as if you had a choice in using another atns service on a flight from CT to JHB.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Luxury]

Having a watch from up here, it is a disgrace, some of the posts here.
I was under the impression, that Pilots (AP, CP, PPL) and what other baloon licences exist, they stick together.
I do not post a lot, I rather read, and to see what is going on down there, makes me angry.
I have flown to a couple of countries so far, as well SA, but this kind of posts, would be not possible here.

Now investigating further, I found that funny little web forum, mostly VFR oaks, which do fly for fun, and do not harm anybody. I remember I couple of decades ago, I was as well like that, but in clubs, no net at that time.

My VIP's pay good money, but can a normal eco, affort to pay on a flight between JHB-CT € 0,02 ? (600NM) per trip more, to leave the system as it is?
Now what it appears, they are changing the system so drastically, would it even be worthwhile to do that for this amount.

The amounts are mindblowing high or low, depending in which Aircraft you sit, from their "ATNS":

http://avcom.co.za/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1995&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

http://avcom.co.za/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

And now we start to fight with our roots! Flying to SAA again will cost us less than €3,00 on our next charter, a great saving for our company, but I can not even buy a coffee for that.

Well done, the authorities are on the way, to the same problems, as in the hole of Africa., reminding me that we had to pay last time about €80,00 per passenger tax in JHB, put that into the relationship with the 2 cents, a great way to upset even the thickest elephant skin.

I remember from my visit there, they have a program there, "You be the Judge"

[TMAguide]

Comander 690, I agree totally, I will endevour to encourage every GA aircraft with any inflight problem , no matter how trivial, to declare and emergency and divert to FAJS and block the active runway for as long as they can causing as much headache to ATNS as posible, might as well gets ones money's worth....

Max...as I have said before...take it up with ATNS, don't make it the ATC's problem, 99% don't even know what the fees are about. From what I have read ATNS has gone :mad: with the new fees, however it has nothing to do with the ATC.

I hear your problems, and I hope you sort them out....:ok:

[Tiger Bob]

TMAguide
Unfortunately you work for ATNS. The pilots have nothing agains you but the only form of protest that will make your bosses wake up is to make you life unworkable. I would say you are unfortunately places in the crossfire. The pilots need you to report delays and other incidents to your bosses so that they realise the system is now equitable or workable.

In a soficsticate country we would be around a table tlaking but so far there is no invite from ATNS to talk so we will have to go the afircan way and protest, toy toyi and blockade. That is what gets attention and the resolution to problems in this country

[Pavlov]

TMAguide, I agree.

The problem lies with ATNS management. The controllers are great! (And have always been so!)
For now we have to preserve the safety and integrity of the system. Any form of action should not compromise safety further or cause the responsibility of dealing with the consequences of the action to shift to the controllers. They had nothing to do with it.

Best...

TigerBob,
I think we agree.
There are other forms of protest. Let\'s hope ATNS takes note of the feelings out there anyway. They might then consider the threat to safety real.

Best..

[Luxury]

Just seen, you buddies have a lot of snags, CAA, ATNS, Army, SAA, and now GA. Got my support and will watch this space for further development.

All the best from up here