does a degree mean higher pay?

[RoyBoy20]

im a 17 year old a-level student. i have decided to go to an fto to get my license. However i also have the opputunity to got uni, but the main thing that concerns me is that, does getting a degree influence your pay? If i was not to get a degree and go straight to training, will i be paid less than someone who has gone to uni?

[Re-Heat]

Not at all in relation to becoming a pilot.

What it gives you is the ability to work somewhere better than McDonalds if you are not working in a flying job, the greater ability to learn, and the opportunity to learn about something in which you are interested prior to embarking upon your career.

If it is something that you want to do (don't just pick an aviation subject - think whether you would mind be an aero eng if you do aero eng for example), then go to uni. The higher earning power if gives to while awaiting a flying job may make it worth it, if it helps to pay off the debt. If it doesn't interest you, then don't bother, but be careful that you don't end up regretting missing out.

Do a search - there are loads of topics on it.

There is nothing to stop you doing both (except debt to some extent) - getting into a flying job as soon as possible no longer has the benefits it once did without final salary pensions. Once the seniority system breaks down it won't matter at all.

[Piltdown Man]

If getting a degree means you will join a company later than you would otherwise have done, it will cost you, every year. However, getting a degree may may you more attractive to a prospective employer and therefore more likely to get a job, but there again... What is universally true is that graduates are paid no more than their illiterate colleagues.

[Heffer]

Going to university is not just about getting that piece of paper, but more about LIFE experiences at that stage in your life which you wont get to repeat in the same way later on.

Whilst doing my A levels, I asked the various flying colleges in the UK at that time and the advise was that uni experience would be favoured by the airlines. You would still only be 22 if you completed your course of training after uni. If you want to do both and can afford to do both, then do both!

A degree may also help your career progression within your airline away from your flying duties.

Finally, I always remember a story i was told about a chap who went into flying for the military at a very young age without A levels or uni. He lost his medical at the age of 25 and found himself back at college with 16 year olds to build his fall back career :eek:

Doesnt really answer your question directly, but just some thoughts that might help the decision process!

[er82]

Life experiences.........load of rubbish!

If you don't want to go to Uni, then don't. Won't in anyway affect how much an airline pays you. They have standard salaries paid to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

[WX Man]

No, a degree means putting off getting a job for 3 years and getting into debt.

Which is exactly what happens at a flying school.

(on a more serious note, the value of a degree nowadays isn't what it used to be. It's only useful if the job that you want to do only has graduate level entry- like most arms of the legal and medical professions, plus technical stuff like engineering, architecture, geology...)

[scroggs]

A copy of something I posted in another thread:

As for A-levels and degrees, this subject has been covered hundreds of times. For pilot employment in UK you do not need a degree at all. A-levels are only rarely required, and then only for one or two sponsorships (when they exist). Specific subjects at A-level (Maths and/or Physics) are not required for employment with the sole exception of Britannia's part-sponsorship in (I think) 2003/4.

Those who are not aiming at sponsorships are not required to have any spcific academic qualifications at all. That is not to say, however, that academic qualifications are not important, or that they will not make a difference to your chances of employment. Just don't take any subject (such as aeronautical engineering) because you think it'll make you more employable as a pilot; it won't. Do it because you want to, and for no other reason.

A degree will make no difference to your remuneration as a pilot.

Scroggs

[Dozza2k]

I was in the same boat as you, but I realised i'd only get into debt from uni before I even started flight training anyway.

Life experience? possibly, but you get a lot of that from 18 months flight training too.

A lot of my mates are doing random degrees as they haven't got a clue what they want to do with their lives.

So I chose to go straight into flight training and do not regret a thing, so you may be a bit younger than some of your peers, but I have found that to not be an issue at all.

choose wisely, its a huge decision.

Dozza2k
:ok:

[Mister Geezer]

That would open a can of worms for BALPA if it did!!!! :D

[Re-Heat]

If getting a degree means you will join a company later than you would otherwise have done, it will cost you, every year.
Piltdown Man: Not if retirement ages are eliminated, as they will be soon; nor if graduates are paid more. Graduates are in many other professions and industries paid more where they bring extra skills to the market - these may be undervalued by you, but you are not making the decisions and seeing the results of such. I expect that once aviation as a career loses it shine to becoming just another job - as it will be sooner or later - and if BALPA were not there, airlines might pay more to obtain those who are most likely to be able to perform the CAA-required management functions of chief pilot, tech managers, and training managers.

Life experiences.........load of rubbish!
er82: I assume that you haven't been to uni to assess this? Correct me if I am wrong. Reading for a degree requires a huge level of independence and initiative, which are either strongly gained or which students fail upon completely.

The overriding strength of British universities is often the onus it places on students to research and learn themselves, something that it might be argued is hard (though not impossible) to otherwise obtain in any structured job or role. Though some people may already have these skills, this and the plethora of opporuntities to meet other people of different opinions from yourself, and chance to try out acitivities that would otherwise be impossible makes it fundamental and highly undervalued by some.


Consistent piping up of the fact that degrees are devalued these days is quite frankly a bit offensive to those of us who have worked long and hard for degrees. It neglects the fact that many more take degrees than ever before, and that for the majority of degrees at the majority of unis it remains crucial to put in a fairly heavy amout of work. Quite frankly it often sounds like jealousy as well.

As it may be apparent above, I am fairly unreceptive to people who write if off as unnecessary to go to university without knowing what university can offer.

[Tallbloke]

Re-Heat,

Personally I think that a degree these days is much easier to acquire since the commercial market was applied to education. University places used to be seen as a reward for hard work in acquiring A levels, and in those olden days, 3 A-levels was as much as anyone could do due to workload, and 3 B's was an excellent result. Nowadays it appears you can almost get an A-level for turning up. No-one is seriously going to tell me that academic standards have risen so far in the last 20 years that 5 A grades at A-level now is better than 3 B grades 20 years ago. (No I didn't, all I got was 2 E grades.)
Universities now rely on bums on seats, students have become consumers. Departments (especially untrendy ones) have to attract x number of students, by any means. The practical result is that entry standards are much lower at universities now. IMHO degrees are not worth what they used to be.

Have I been to university?

Yes.

4 years, full-time, graduated last year BEng (Hons).

Was it / is it worth it? Not sure, it certainly does not appear to be making any difference to my life at present. I am hoping it will when it comes to job hunting but I am not holding my breath about that either, every time I have spoken to airline recruiters they have told me it makes no difference.
It neglects the fact that many more take degrees than ever before This is irrelevant because a) entry standards are lower and b) what degrees are people doing? The fastest growing departments at my university were journalism and psychology, and these were growing at the expense of departments like mathematics and engineering. David Beckham studies, I ask you.

[Re-Heat]

This is irrelevant because a) entry standards are lower and b) what degrees are people doing?
No it is not, since even at the top unis, student numbers have hugely increased.

I agree, and I hope I made that clear in my first post, that some degrees at some universities are irrelevant - journalism has been long held to be of lower use since the speciailism on which people can write is simply not there. A mathematician as a journalist can however understand the topic, and then will write about it if they have the talent. I would never however writeoff any such student of journalism simply because of their degree - the learning involved or what they individually may have put into it may be far different from how it is viewed as a course.

At risk of diverting into the political arena of higher education, the market is supposed to be the death of poor departments, and help reward the good ones, since students will be able to see and focus their efforts upon degrees that reward them with better careers and are seen as being of some use post-graduation. The QAA then corrects for the fact that students cannot have a perfect idea of the best degree for their future by shutting down and grading departments.

The fact that poor degrees exist you could blame on students themselves - the QAA is the real problem. I digress however as the best universities and departments remain as good as they have ever done, relying on lower resources and in spite of everything our governments have done to them.

University places are still rewarded based upon what your A-Levels are - I defy you to find someone who did A-Levels 30 years ago to retake them and categorically state that they found it easier - not only becase it is patently untrue but I know two who have for differering reasons done so and found it not to be the case (one being an A-grade Cambridge alumni). Do not repeat political ammunition either way for fact.


I did not just 'turn up' to achieve 3 As and a B (all academic and no General Studies).

I did not piss away three years to achieve my 2:1

I would not be able to do my job without my degree nor the 'life experience' I learned.

I am fully aware that this has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to gain the flightdeck job on paper, but once I get to interview - who knows what the person on the day will be impressed by how your time is spent.


Entry standards are no lower now on the top universities on the top courses. Universities degrees are neither desgined to be nor should ever be taken as signals in the job market. They are academic and not vocational. Don't confuse the two.

[Tallbloke]

since even at the top unis, student numbers have hugely increased. Bums on seats.
journalism has been long held to be of lower use since the speciailism on which people can write is simply not there. I was not writing off journalism, but question whether or not young people should be guided into such a degree when there are more academic but less fashionable offerings. Should they not be trying to stretch themselves, rather than taking an (arguably) easier option.the market is supposed to be the death of poor departments, and help reward the good ones, since students will be able to see and focus their efforts upon degrees that reward them with better careers and are seen as being of some use post-graduation. What then is the explanation for closing electrical and chemical engineering departments all over the country, when industry is crying out for such candidates, and prepared to reward them?

You keep going on about "the best" universities. You are moving the goalposts. There are all the other universities, then Oxford, Cambridge, LSE and Imperial, and perhaps Kings. Cranfield if you are studying an aviation related topic. What about all the other universities, the ones which cannot attract the top achievers because there are none?
The fact that poor degrees exist you could blame on students themselves Students do not set syllabi, nor are they responsible for setting and maintaining academic standards. Universities offer what they think they can sell.
I defy you to find someone who did A-Levels 30 years ago to retake them and categorically state that they found it easier OK quick example. When I sat Applied Maths all those years ago we would have a question such as;
A 70kg man is painting a wall. He has a 6 metre ladder, which he places 2 metres from the base of the wall. The floor has coefficient of friction 0.7. How much paint can he carry to the top of the ladder. (25 marks)
I saw a similar A-level question on my foundation year course in 2000 (what a year to start an aeronautical degree).
It basically broke the same question up into 8 chunks, each worth a few marks each, apart from "complete the drawing" which was worth 6 marks. It led candidates through the problem, rather than requiring candidates to think their way through a problem. It was laughable. My tutor was disgusted at the simplicity of it.
Do not repeat political ammunition either way for fact. I have been through the education system twice, once 20 years ago and once finishing last year. Actual experience, actual fact.
I would not be able to do my job without my degree Is your degree not therefore vocational?
Entry standards are no lower now on the top universities on the top courses. And what about all the other courses and all the other universities, where faculties find it difficult to fill a course and so lower the entry requirements. (I have sat on Board of Studies meetings where this has been suggested as a solution, by the Dean of the School, and it was the students who pointed out to him what he was saying)I am fully aware that this has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to gain the flightdeck job on paper, but once I get to interview - who knows what the person on the day will be impressed by how your time is spent. Indeed, it can do no harm, but in the context of the original posting, you would be paid the same, and at least in my experience of talking to airline recruiters face to face (but not in an interview situation) having a degree does not especially sway them and it is them you have to impress.Entry standards are no lower now on the top universities on the top courses. but not everywhere else.Universities degrees are neither desgined to be nor should ever be taken as signals in the job market. They are academic and not vocational. Yes they are, now that the student has become the client. Students are less interested in the whys and wherefores, they want to know how to pass the exams rather than being interested in the aquisition of knowledge for it's own sake. They are demanding skills appropriate to related employment, such as CAD tuition rather than pencil and paper technical drawing. They are not interested in finite element analysis because they know that in the real world a computer does FEA, they just need to put numbers in the right places.

In answer to the original post, I would say it depends on how mature you are. If you are still a bit immature then university is the way to go, and get into the training when you have grown up a bit. Otherwise, if you are mature enough to integrate into the regime of flight training, perhaps you should get in now while the going appears to be improving, who knows what will be going on in 4 years time?

[OBK!]

Going to university is not just about getting that piece of paper, but more about LIFE experiences at that stage in your life which you wont get to repeat in the same way later on.

I don't have a degree but I've just turned 20, with 3 years aviation experience, just got promotion and have 18 months experience living on my own in a large city...pay my own rent (which is through the roof) and my own car/insurance (which...is through the roof), have learnt to cook and clean (and I don't mean just the microwave)...have a frozen ATPL, and a big head .

My friend however is 21, studies geography at uni, lives in a cage, works for minimum wage and I don't think he's ever paid a bill in his life, except at a bar, and also wants to be a pilot. Is that what life experience is meant to be?

He'll make it for sure, I'm just worried about me...I mean, I don't have a degree!

Yes I was lucky, my ol' man helped me out with my licence but I earnt my own experience.

[RoyBoy20]

Getting a degree does influence your pay, it means you pay more back, your loans AND your flying debt. Maybe it's just my upbringing but uni is not what it used to be in my opinion and had I gone to uni, I'm pretty sure I'd be slashing my wrists.

Don't just go and get a licence though, do something to go with it, which will make you stand out in the great ocean of post-grads...

[Re-Heat]

What then is the explanation for closing electrical and chemical engineering departments all over the country, when industry is crying out for such candidates, and prepared to reward them?
Because they are not - the pay is rubbish.

A 70kg man is painting a wall. He has a 6 metre ladder, which he places 2 metres from the base of the wall. The floor has coefficient of friction 0.7. How much paint can he carry to the top of the ladder.
Yes - I sat questions such as that in Applied Maths just a few years ago as well. Things have not changed. You are perhaps looking at Level 1 modular papers?

I am not moving the goalposts - perhaps I should clarify that if you get x grades, and go to y university to gain z degree, the level in which they are held have not changed. What has perhaps changed is the offering of new degrees for lower entry requirements from newer universities. Some are great and some are not so, but in the main they give opportunity where in the past people were written off as incapable of doing a degree.

The value of both those and the more traditional degrees is down to what you choose and the work you put into it. They all increase the educational level of the 50% or so who go to university - opening up new opportunities on new courses is not the same as lowering standards at the more established courses at the older universities.

Is your degree not therefore vocational?
No. You misunderstand. My degree was essential in instilling the skills I needed to survive in my job. It was not essential for teaching me the knowledge required to do my job. Those are two different things entirely.

My friend however is 21, studies geography at uni, lives in a cage, works for minimum wage and I don't think he's ever paid a bill in his life, except at a bar, and also wants to be a pilot. Is that what life experience is meant to be?
Not at all.

[Tallbloke]

Re-heat I do not know where you get your information from, I get mine from engineering journals. There is a shortage of all forms of engineering graduates at present.
The papers I saw were shown to me by my maths tutor who had been teaching the subject for 20 or so years.
You are moving the goalposts. Oxbridge, LSE and Imperial are seen as a class apart from all other universities. By who? University academic staff for a start.
I would not be able to do my job without my degree If yours is not a vocational degree, what specifically has a degree given you that you could not have acquired elsewhere?
Some are great and some are not so, but in the main they give opportunity where in the past people were written off as incapable of doing a degree. Why were they written off? because they were not bright enough? So lower the academic standards, and let’s include everyone. Except now an employer does not know the difference between your degree and mine because there are so many different standards now, and therefore the value of a degree has been degraded.
opening up new opportunities on new courses is not the same as lowering standards at the more established courses at the older universities. yes it is where these older universities feel they must compete and offer similar products.
My degree was essential in instilling the skills I needed to survive in my job I am presuming then your degree was not in accountancy? University is a good place for some people to mature and thrive, but I would hardly say it teaches survival skills. Most of the people on my course and similar engineering courses had no idea of what work was, how to talk to superiors / subordinates, how to present a reasoned argument or make a presentation, when to shut up, how to hold a spanner or use tools (fairly important for those hoping to work supervising those who use tools). I was also shocked at the low level of knowledge A-level student had; in the 1st year of my degree course (as opposed to the foundation year) there were some subjects which simply recapped A-level material. And as for spelling, grammar and mental arithmetic....

[effortless]

Go to uni and join the University Air Squadron. Do a dgree that you enjoy and do it well. Remember that a first or a 2:1 is still a pretty good thing to get.

[scroggs]

:rolleyes: Let's try and get the thread back on track; if you want a general thread about the value of university, start a fresh one.

RoyBoy20 wanted to know if he needed a degree to be a commercial pilot, and whether possession of a degree would affect his pay as a pilot. The answer to both questions is 'no'.

Scroggs

[Paul McKeksdown]

I think university degrees are a fantastic thing. I can't wait to sit next to the guy who fills our transit time with his 'life broadening uni experiences' whilst explaining the cross windscreen temperature gradient profile of laminated glass heating elements with mathematical precision and then still F&^ks up the ILS!

Have been to uni, but have also been many other places and uni gave me next to nowt (t'was a Northern Uni!) when it comes to 'lifes experience' except having to get up myself and learn, which I did before going anyway.

There is no reason why a person, gaining a degree of ANY sort, should be paid more whilst in the cockpit purely for having one.

RoyBoy20 the only possible advantage I can see for you having a degree would be a move into management where a management degree would, indeed, be useful.

Re-Heat, sorry old lad, anyone can do and get a degree now. The idea of degrees being the playground of the young went out of the window years ago. If you have received significant vocational training and progressed through 'on job training' to a significant degree enabling the holding of a senior management post then you are 'effectively' credited with a degree level education when it comes to the job market. A company would generally prefer someone a little older with a proven track and results record than a fresh baked stude. No offence, I've been there.

[Re-Heat]

No offence taken. There are many older and wiser than I and I would be a fool not to take onboard their opinion. I just think it is rather too easy to write off what some of my generation have achieved.

You don't need a degree, I would not expect to be paid more in the flightdeck. If not interested then don't do it, but don't miss out if you are and it is useful.

[Aerospace101]

I'm still at uni, but my view is;

1) A Degree is gona set you apart from all your competitors (who dont have one; school leavers etc..) when you go for an interview. Thus improves my chances for a job.

2) As Sir Alan Sugar said on The Apprentice; a degree only shows that a person has some kind of intellectual ability, capacity to learn etc... So does that mean a higher pay in a flight deck context = NO.

3) A degree gives ME a back up plan, if another 9/11 happens, i fail a medical, have an accident etc.

4) My degree will help me later on in my career when i slowly take on management roles. (I do Engineering)

5) And refering to point (1); at age 18 I felt very immature, and not right to invest £70K or sign away to the forces etc.... Uni has given ME (and maybe others) a chance to MATURE; and experience other non-flying related things. those 'life' or people skills etc, which you learn from experience, will help me in showing i'm a developed young adult, with Captaincy capacity. = A JOB!