Uk Bac111 Incident

[hadagutful]

Cockpit Windscreen Blowout.

When Channel 7 finally got back on air last night, did anyone else see Air Accident Investigation?

Quite an amazing story from some years ago with the captain's side windscreen blowing out at 17,000 on climb to FL 230 London to Spain.
During the explosive decompression, the captain was sucked out the hole and with feet caught on the control yoke, was left lying against the fuselage in the slipstream.

With a remarkable flying effort from the F/O the aircraft eventually landed safely with no casualties except the captain injured but he survived the ordeal.

What I am wondering is the situation with his seat harness, it was mentioned briefly that he loosened his shoulder harness but not the lap strap.

Wouldn't all cockpit crew normally leave their full seatbelt harness fastened, particularly while still on climb?
What is the policy or accepted practice for flight crew on RPT aircraft?
I couldn't see how he was sucked through the window with any part of his belt fastened, yet this was never given any further mention in the subsequent investigation.

Appreciate any comment on this.

[Apophis]

who cares about his seat belt some dips#@t did not read the m.m and put the wrong bolts in i have seen the same types of things happen here people just do what they want do not read the m.m and some one signs for it.
this type of thing is becoming common practice which is bad for everyone.

[6fingeredman]

Normally you losen (release) your shoulder harness on climb out unless the seat belt signs are on, in which case you stay all locked up nice and tight.

[forget]

Apophis, Both aviation engineering and human factors expert are we? You reckon some dips#@t did not read the m.m and put the wrong bolts in.

Instead of shooting off at the keyboard why don’t you read the AAIB Report. This will tell you all about the string of events which preceded the wrong bolts being stored and issued, and a very experienced and qualified guy installing them.

[MOR]

The report fairly comprehensively fails to mention that the only way the captain could have got out of the cockpit the way he did was a) he wasn't wearing a lap belt, or it was so loose it may as well not have been there; or b) if it had been fastened and even vaguely tight, you would have to break both his knees and probably his pelvis to get him out via the window. Just try it next time you are strapped into an aircraft - your body simply doesn't bend the ways it needs to for this to happen.

Of course, the captain, F/O and purser were lauded as heroes, and some engineers got the sack, which was a little less than fair in my opinion.

I was actually in Southampton, waiting to line up, as it landed there. The captains blood was all down the side of the aircraft, there seemed to be an awful lot of it. Thankfully nobody was permanently hurt...

[SkySista]

Is it just me, or do they seem to be focusing more on the emotional side of these cases (less in this one) In the one about the midair over Uberlingen, there seemed to be much more with the families etc.

Perhaps because of the murder of the ATCO? Or have the producers been told to "spice it up" with more 'dramatic' stuff to lure the layman into watching as well?

Think the guy in the BAC-111 did have broken bones, not sure if it was pelvis though, might have been ribs...

Sky

[BlueEagle]

In the programme I saw here some of the bolts the engineer removed were also the wrong size, Murphy's law he chose one of these to do a bolt-for-bolt comparison which may have contributed to him fitting the wrong size bolts. If he was sacked that seems very harsh to me.

[John Citizen]

There was also no investigation of the fact that the windscreen had the wrong bolts in the first place, before it was replaced !!!

[hadagutful]

Thanks for replies from those who fly RPT.

I know the program glosses over a lot of relevent information and leaves a quite a deal out which prompted my query in the first place.

Apophis, I know the incorrect bolts were the primary cause and that was due to human factors and systemic errors within the organisation but despite it happening, I was surprised the captain still got sucked out.
Why didn't he still have his seat harness correctly fastened?

Thanks Mor for your suggested reasons because the program didn't deal with this issue at all.

Surely most or all RPT pilots would leave their seatbelts fully fastened even if perhaps loosened at stages, for the entire flight?

[Apophis]

prehaps a case for the mythbusters.

[SkySista]

Good idea, Apophis.

Considering they lost the left windscreen window while trying out the Explosive Decompression myth, it would be easy for them to do (except they stuffed the whole plane with an explosive charge!) :ooh:

Recall though that the Capt's seat did get sucked out, went a hundred feet or so... but "Buster", the dummy (err.. the Mythbusters' dummy.... :E) didn't move at all, even with his window blown out....

[Apophis]

Ah yes but you must remember that Buster was put in his seat after having one to many !

[privateer]

Heard that initially the F/O was for pushing the Captain out as his feet on the yoke were interfering with the control of the aircraft.

It was a flight attendant who came to the rescuse and held onto the Captains legs, while he was dangling out the aircraft, which allowed the F/O to take control and land safely.

Wrong size of screws used in the windscreen - metric instead of imperial or vice-versa. A classic case of "it seems to fit" isn't good enough!

[Continental-520]

A pity that the F/O chose not to contribute to the making of the program. Would've been interesting to hear his perspective, and how it was.

Anyone know why he stayed out of it?

520.

[farqueue]

Privateer, it was not a metric vs imperial at all. All sizes where imperial, just that two of them where wrong! 0.7" vs 0.8" length in one case, and 8-32 vs 10-32 in the other.

[maxgrad]

This happened around FL170, In our company SOPS after decompression, the first thing we do is don masks. OK it's only 17grand but to those of you who have read the report, did the FO put a mask on?

Not overly sure on this point but once the window blew and S&it happened, wouldn't the visible vapour that formed be either dissipating or mixed with the incoming atmosphere through the window?

[hadagutful]

Another good point, Maxgrad, following the windscreen blowout, the F/O was not shown once with his O2 mask on.
I think the whole program was badly reconstructed and selective in it's storyline.

However, I am still mystified by the captain's seat harness situation and yes, why didn't the F/O appear on the program or have input to the program as a key witness and participant.
After all, he was considered a "hero".

[tinpis]

1: I wouldnt get in a BAC 1-11

2: I wouldnt fit through the windscreen

[Uncommon Sense]

Why not read the report

ATC Transcript (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502703.pdf)
Investigation Report (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502702.pdf)

Then comment.

[frangatang]

I was on the 111 at birmingham that day going to a different destination,and the capt in question was a good mate. He was not exactly tall and if my memory serves me you changed the
air systems over at 1500 ft and as the capt was P2 he had to undo his shoulder harness in order to reach up and operate the switches.Most of us undo the shoulder harness in the climb anyway.
When the windscreen went,and he was on the way out,the flight deck door blew in with a cabin crew member following it,hence they were there to hold him down,albeit with a bare arse in the stewards face. The FO did a fantastic job and the decompression was the loudest bang he had ever heard.Southampton didnt really want the problem on their doorstep and were initially unhelpful.Naturally BA went after the FO for going to an unapproved airport.
They didnt want to let the capt go as there was a danger he would disappear into the engine.No doubt the engineer was completely knackered on the night shift so that would not have helped.
I understand the engineering manager left the birmingham base fairly quickly and was promoted somewhere else.
I left that fleet shortly after and came across the capt some years later in lax. He had a nasty wound on his forehead and
l asked why it was taking so long to heal.It appeared he fell over the previous night coming back from the pub!
Happily the capts jacket turned up in a farmers field in oxfordshire.
Dont know if the wallet was still in it though.
I certainly hope nobody believed much of what was in the programme,as it contains the usual crap to enthral the viewer.
The FO would have been banned by BA from appearing in the programme and would no doubt declined if he could anyway,
after a BA classic crew were stitched up when the dear old BBC made a documentary on the day in a life of an flight deck crew.
Enjoyed the 111 , a thinking mans jet,variable speed constant noise engines!