PDA

View Full Version : Our terrorism is worse than your terrorism Shirley


Paul Wilson
12th Apr 2005, 08:25
Of course what the USA is doing by concentrating so much on aviation is what armies and governments have done throughout history - Preparing to fight the LAST war.

WTC first attempt - car bomb

USS Cole - boat bomb

WTC second attempt - Aircraft as bomb

The US should be more concernerd with sealing their incredibly porus borders with Mexico and Canada, all this hyper security on aircraft contrasted with the laughably lax land border controls, makes me concrened.

Jorge Newberry
12th Apr 2005, 08:55
Israel is a nation with many enemies. Yet they don't seem ever to turn back passenger aircraft heading towards their airspace.
Anyone got any idea why?

Yes, I know they shot down a Libyan jet over the Sinai in 1969 I think it was but that was ages ago

FullWings
12th Apr 2005, 09:03
And of course, it's a well known fact that terrorists always travel under their real names :rolleyes:

Toulouse
12th Apr 2005, 09:11
I don't like getting involved in these political arguments, and realise it IS totally of topic here, but I just must respond to a few of the posters on the now closed thread which started this one off.

Dumbledore: Don't know you, and I'm sorry but I must say your post was complete and utter rubbish. You clearly have NO idea of whatr's going on outside the US, and probably have a rather limited idea of what's going on within the US. You know, an American citizen recently said to me that he found it very strange, but that while in Europe he realised that the average European knew a lot more about what was going on in the US than the aaverage American...

Zehutiman: In fairness to you, and while I feel we probably don't have the same political tendencies, I must admit I couldn't but agree with a lot of your post. However, your 'Anti-European' feelings came through. I do however think you hit the nail on the head when you said Europe was used to decades of terrorism. But you insinuated this was 'light' terrorism. And that's not the case. The IRA and other terrorist groups in Northern Ireland and caused many thousands to die. What about ETA. What about all the terrosits attacks France has faced in the past from Algerian terrosits and others. I think the problem is that the USA was actually quite naive when it came to terrorism, and was UNFORTUNATLY abruptly awoken from this dream by the attrocities of 9-11. And so, and I suppose quite naturally, the US (well, part of its population and Bush & Co.) overreacted.

Neil Armstrong: I really enjoyed reading your post.

Rainboe: Have you ever asked an Afghan or an Iraqi what there opinion is on the freedom brought to them by the Bush? What freedom? they would probably respond. Things have just gone from bad to worse there.

I really wish people, especially Americans, would wake up and realise the damage Bush has instrumented and caused between America and its allies of many years and the rest of the world. Hate wishing our lives away, but roll on 2008 and the end of Bush.

N380UA
12th Apr 2005, 09:38
What we got here is a mixing of topics. On one hand we got national security concerns and on the other we got the economics of nations and industries. We find a direct connection between those, however opposing they may be. Sense and sensibility between them depends on the individual who sets up the rules of conduct.

By means of any international aviation convention, any country may refuse an inbound aircraft if national security is compromised, perceived or actual – that puts us back to the individual who set up the rules of conduct. Apparently, the US is still scarred of terrorist attacks… perhaps because the US involvement in global issues has not changed at all?

But be that as it may, if the US feels that the flight may be unsafe by any means, it has all the rights to refuse it. Regardless of their national deficit, loss of revenues, bankruptcy of companies etc. if they are willing to pay the price it's all in good standing. And if the world is willing to dance to the tunes of the US then we really don’t have any grounds to complain.

But as v1r8 correctly pointed out, Europe, including "old Europe" is very much so involved in fighting international terrorism. It would be wise if we, within our industry at least, could be pulling on the same string rather than doubting each others position on the war on terror.

US governmental policy, see case of Mr. Cat Stevens et-al, may be laughable but its reality and I'm not altogether sure that these policies will change with a different US president even if he is elected based on his knowledge and academic merits.

Rainboe
12th Apr 2005, 09:59
This has become an almost totally political discussion allowing the 'anti-American, ant-Bush' fraternity to vent their spleen once again to everybodies boredom. Further discussion is superfluous! Any country has the right to refuse overflight rights to anybody, without compensation, at any time, for any reason. The fact that this is terrorist related means patience is required.

No more need be said.

SaturnV
12th Apr 2005, 10:39
Several commentors on this thread appear to have little knowledge of the problems that plague TSA and its no-fly list. A few have made a leap of faith by insisting that the two individuals were/are terrorists, when in all likelihood, they were/are anything but. As TSA itself acknowledges, several pilots authorized to carry guns in the cockpit have been put on the list. That should be evidence enough about the quality of the list.

The current head of TSA has been told to leave by June. The paragraphs that follow are excerpted from a Washington Post asrticle of April 8, 2005
The Transportation Security Administration, once the flagship agency in the nation's $20 billion effort to protect air travelers, is now targeted for sharp cuts in its high-profile mission.
The latest sign came yesterday when the Bush administration asked David M. Stone, the TSA's director, to step down in June, according to aviation and government sources. Stone is the third top administrator to leave the three-year-old agency, which was created in the chaos and patriotism following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

The TSA has been plagued by operational missteps, public relations blunders and criticism of its performance from the public and legislators. Its "No Fly" list has mistakenly snared senators. Its security screeners have been arrested for stealing from luggage, and its passenger pat-downs have set off an outcry from women.......

Stone, the TSA's current leader, is new to Washington and has been known for his cautious -- some say near paranoid -- approach to security. He presides over a much slimmer TSA, with 52,000 employees, and said he supports the president's proposed changes and is happy to give up programs -- even large ones. "I'm a big optimist," Stone said in a recent interview in his office, which looks out on the side of the Pentagon hit by an American Airlines jet in the 2001 attacks. "I'm not really concerned about turf if that's what is best for the American people. I want to look back 10 years from now and say we did it right at TSA.".....

Every morning, Stone begins a daily two- to four-hour intelligence meeting, in which he and 40 of his top managers review incident reports from the country's 429 major airports and from train, bus and trucking systems. They comb reports of evacuated terminals, unruly passengers and unattended bags, looking for the next big threat.

Travelers, airport workers and flight crew members involved in incidents are nominated to the government's "watch lists," meaning they will be singled out for extra screening the next time they arrive at an airport. So-called "selectees" wind up on the agency's secret list because they disrupted a flight -- not necessarily because they are viewed as terrorists. For at least six months, the selectees will be pulled aside for extra scrutiny every time they fly. Several thousand names are believed to be on the list.

Stone, 52, said the exercise shows that the TSA still serves a critical role in the nation's intelligence network. He has told Chertoff [the Secretary of the Homeland Security Department] that he hopes the agency will keep this role.

Airlines have complained that hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent passengers, and even pilots, have been added to the TSA's selectee list or that some names are confused with those on the "No Fly" list, subjecting travelers to hassles.

At a February meeting between the TSA and 18 major carriers, airline representatives were asked who had crew members on the list and "they all raised their hands," said one airline source who was present. Airline officials said crew members on the list must be stripped of their badges and cannot perform their duties, according to TSA rules.

Stone said "one or two" pilots who are approved to carry guns in the cockpit have been put on the selectee list in the past year. He said he recalls a "handful" of other pilots who have been added to the selectee list because they were involved in "outrageous" incidents. He cited an incident last year in which an intoxicated pilot punched a patron at a restaurant and threatened him.
"We take all of these incidents seriously, and we work to resolve them quickly because we know that people's livelihoods are at stake," said Mark Hatfield, a TSA spokesman.

One should find it remarkable that the 41 senior managers of an agency spend between ten and twenty hours every week reviewing incident reports, most of which surely must be trifling. That is evidence enough that they know little about management of large organizations, that the number of incidents continue unabated and their causes are not effectively addressed, and this is a bunch of people trying to play super intelligence analyst.

The quality of TSA's products, its competence, and its operating style (described above) mirror some of the problems that permeate the US intelligence community, as detailed in the recent scathing report on the performance of the US intelligence agencies withn regard to the Iraq invasion .

zehutiman
12th Apr 2005, 14:33
To Toulouse and others: I agree with much of what you said.

For V1:Are you guys just ignorant or just stupid?
Is that a trick question?

Actually, I should apologize for painting most of Europe with such a broad brush. Many non-Americans are criticized for doing that to America, and yet, I just did the same thing. I know there are lots of governments who are on board against terrorism.

On a side not, V1, I am prior military, and I'm unaware of the Dutch role on Sept 12; I can only speculate you might be talking about them providing AWACS because it'd be extremely difficult for any F-16's to get here in less than a day, unless they were already in country. Please explain more.

Mo

av8boy
12th Apr 2005, 16:17
ORAC

It would have been nice if you could have been a little more obvious... Perhaps you could have prefaced your CNN report by saying something like, "See. av8boy was right when he said the info came from Mexico!":ok:

As I've said before, there's so little joy in my life... I'll take it where I can get it.
:(

Dave

PaperTiger
12th Apr 2005, 16:30
The US should be more concernerd with sealing their incredibly porus(sic) borders with Mexico and Canada...So far, all terrorist acts on or above US soil have been committed by people who had entered the country legally and directly. The FBI said last month that it has no evidence of any potential terrorists having entered via either land border, although that may just reflect the incompetence of the FBI :uhoh: .

A total of 3 'suspected' terrorists have been apprehended while attempting to cross the US-Canada border in the last 5 years.

Gouabafla
12th Apr 2005, 17:47
Light terrorism? Omagh, Warren Point, Warrington, the Birmingham pub bombings, Harrods, Hyde Park the list goes on...

Perhaps these names mean nothing to you if you are not British and of a certain age, but terrorism has been something that the UK has had to deal with for almost all of my life.

No one denies that 9/11 was dreadful. It was far worse than anything we have seen this side of the Atlantic. But to try and suggest that we've only seen 'light terrorism' is as insulting as it is innacurate.

v1r8
12th Apr 2005, 18:16
Zehut,

No hard feelings. I just hate it when others compare The Netherlands, UK and a few others to French or Germany. Which obviously is BS.

N380UA,

Great post sir.

Friendly regards,
V1

uffington sb
12th Apr 2005, 20:28
Gouabafla.

Spot on mate. It's amazing what short memories some people have. We in Europe have been fighting a "Whor on Terrror" for decades. IRA, PIRA, RIRA, RAF, Black September, ETA etc etc etc with thousands killed while the US actuallysupported some of theses organisations. And what was the worst terrorist outrage in the US prior to 9/11? Oklahoma. 163 dead and many maimed but that was by a good 'ol American boy.

West Coast
12th Apr 2005, 22:40
I do enjoy seeing Brits on their high horse over IRA funding. It was wrong, dead wrong alright. Just as wrong as the cash cow that the UK was/is for hamas. As recently as the 90's Israel complained to the UK about it being a major fund raising source for hamas.

Grandpa
12th Apr 2005, 22:57
(Rainboe said....)

And Grandpa was not there!

So sorry! Apologise....

The you know my ethics forbid firing at an ambulance!

zehutiman
13th Apr 2005, 01:46
Just so we're clear, I am not the one who used the term, "light" terrorism. Toulouse said:
But you insinuated this was 'light' terrorism. And that's not the case. The IRA and other terrorist groups in Northern Ireland and caused many thousands to die.
I used the term, "low-intensity," which is completely different from "light." The IRA, for instance, may have killed many, as has the UVF, UDA, LVF, and UFF (why do I never hear anyone mention these terrorist organizations when mentioning terrorist organizations?), but each episode rarely kills more than one or two at a time -- that is considered "low-intensity." And, don't forget, I acknowledged that Europe has been dealing with terrorism longer than the U.S..

Mo

We in Europe have been fighting a "Whor on Terrror" for decades. IRA, PIRA, RIRA, RAF, Black September, ETA etc etc etc with thousands killed while the US actuallysupported some of theses organisations. And what was the worst terrorist outrage in the US prior to 9/11? Oklahoma. 163 dead and many maimed but that was by a good \'ol American boy.
When you say, US, who exactly are you talking about? American citizens? American politicians? I\'ve already called one person to task for alleging that US politicians "threw money," at the IRA, with as yet, no response (no surprise there). So who are you talking about? And while you\'re at it, why don\'t you specify which organizations (IRA, PIRA, etc.) were the grateful recipients? And do you suppose that nary a soul from anywhere in the UK or elsewhere in Europe, contributed to UDA, UVF, etc., organizations? Or, are you going to try and convince me that they\'re the "good guys?"

As far as the worst terrorist attack, pre 9/11? What\'s your point? How about a list, just since, let\'s say, 1970?

7-31-70 In Montevideo, Uruguay, the Tupamaros terrorist group kidnapped USAID adviser Dan Mitrione; his body was found on August 10.

5-11-72 US Army headquarters in Frankfurt, Germany, attacked by Red Army Faction car bomb killing one American officer and injuring thirteen people. Three more US servicemen injured in another Red Army Faction car bomb attack on the US Army headquarters at Heidleburg, Germany, later in the month.

3-2-73 U.S. Ambassador to Sudan Cleo A. Noel and other diplomats were assassinated at the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum by members of the Black September organization.

5-4-73 U.S. Consul General in Guadalajara, Terrence Leonhardy, was kidnapped by members of the People\'s Revolutionary Armed Forces.

11-4-79 Iranian radicals seize the US Embassy in Tehran, taking sixty-six American diplomats hostage.

8-13-80 Air Florida flight from Key West to Miami, United States, hijacked by seven Cubans and flown to Cuba, where they released their hostages and taken into custody. Six further US airliners were hijacked to Cuba over the next month.

8-31-81 Large bomb explodes in the car park of the USAF base at Ramstein, Germany, injuring twenty people. The Red Army Faction claims responsibility.

12-4-81 Three American nuns and one lay missionary were found murdered outside San Salvador, El Salvador.

4-18-83 Sixty three people, including the CIA\'s Middle East Director, are killed and 120 injured in a 400 lb. suicide truck bomb attack on the US Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. The driver is killed. Responsibility is claimed by Islamic Jihad.

10-23-83 Simultaneous suicide truck bombs on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. A 12,000 lb bomb destroys a US Marine Corps base killing two hundred and forty one Americans; another fifty eight Frenchmen are killed when a 400 lb device destroys one of their bases. Islamic Jihad claims responsibility.

12-12-83 US Embassy in Kuwait targeted by Iraqi Shia terrorists who attempted to destroy the building with a truck bomb. The attack was foiled by guards and the device exploded in the Embassy fore-court killing five people.

4-12-84 Eighteen US servicemen killed and eighty three people injured in bomb attack on restaurant near USAF base in Torrejon, Spain.

9-20-84 Suicide bomb attack on US Embassy in East Beirut kills twenty three people and injures twenty one others. The US and British ambassadors were slightly injured in the explosion which was attributed to the Iranian backed Hezbollah group.

1985
February 7
Under the orders of narcotrafficker Rafael Cero Quintero, Drug Enforcement Administration agent Enrique Camarena Salazar and his pilot were kidnapped, tortured, and executed.
March 16
US journalist Terry Anderson is kidnapped in Beirut, Lebanon, by Iranian backed Islamic radicals. He is released in December 1991.
June 9
US academic, Thomas Sutherland, at the American University, Beirut, Lebanon kidnapped by Islamic terrorists and held until November 18, 1991.
June 14
A Trans World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for 17 days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft was returned to Beirut after Israel released 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.
August 8
Three US servicemen and seventeen injured in Red Army Faction bomb and gun attack on Rhein-Main airbase, Germany.
September 12
US academic at the American University in Beirut, Joseph Cicippio, seized in Beirut by Iranian backed Islamic terrorists. He is released on December 1, 1991.
October 7
Four Palestinian Liberation Front terrorists seized an Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages. One U.S. passenger was murdered before the Egyptian Government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages\' freedom.
October 21
American businessman Edward Tracy kidnapped in Lebanon by Islamic terrorists and held for almost five years until August 11, 1991.

1986
March 30
A Palestinian splinter group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens Airport, killing four U.S. citizens.
April 5
Two U.S. soldiers were killed, and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany.

1987
January 24
American citizens Jesse Turner and Alann Steen were seized in Beirut by Islamic terrorists. Turner was held until October 22, 1991 and Steen is released on 3 December 3, 1991.
April 14
US Navy club in Naples, Italy, bombed by Japanese Red Army killing five.
April 24
Sixteen U.S. servicemen riding in a Greek Air Force bus near Athens were injured in an apparent bombing attack, carried out by the revolutionary organization known as 17 November.

1988
February 17
US Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgens, kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian backed Hezbollah while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation in southern Lebanon.
April 14
The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor.
June 28
US Naval Attache killed in Athens, Greece, by Nov 17th terrorist group.
August 8
Pakistan president Zia Al Haq and US ambassador are killed, along with thirty seven other people, when a bomb explodes on a C-130 Hercules aircraft just after take off from Bahawalpu, Pakistan. December 21
Pan Am Boeing 747 blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb believed to have been placed on the aircraft at Frankfurt Airport, Germany. All 259 people on the aircraft were killed by the blast.

1989
April 21
The New People\'s Army (NPA) assassinate Col. James Rowe in Manila. The NPA also assassinate two U.S. government defense contractors in September.

1990
January 15
The Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement bombed the U.S. Embassy in Lima, Peru.
May 13
The New People\'s Army (NPA) killed two U.S. Air Force personnel near Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines.

1992
January 17-21
A senior official of the corporation Philippine Geothermal was kidnapped in Manila by the Red Scorpion Group, and two U.S. businessmen were seized independently by the National Liberation Army and by Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC).

1993
January 31
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) terrorists kidnapped three U.S. missionaries.
February 26
World Trade Center in New York, USA, attacked by a massive bomb planted by Islamic terrorists.
April 14
Iraqi intelligence service attempt to assassinate former US President, George Bush, during a visit to Kuwait.

1994
September 23
FARC rebels kidnapped U.S. citizen Thomas Hargrove in Colombia.

1995
March 8
Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.
July 4
In India, six foreigners, including two U.S. citizens, were taken hostage by Al-Faran, a Kashmiri separatist group. One non-U.S. hostage was later found beheaded.
August 21
Hamas claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb in Jerusalem that killed six and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.
September 13
A rocket-propelled grenade was fired through the window of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, as an apparent retaliation for U.S. strikes on Serb positions in Bosnia.
November 13
Seven foreigners, including a number of US servicemen, are killed in bomb attack on National Guard training centre at Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

1996
January 19
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen and demanded a $1 million ransom. The hostage was released on May 22.
February 15
Unidentified assailants fired a rocket at the U.S. embassy compound in Athens, causing minor damage to three diplomatic vehicles and some surrounding buildings. It is believed to have been carried out by the 17 November group.
February 16
Six alleged National Liberation Army (ELN) guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen in Colombia. After 9 months, the hostage was released.
June 25
Islamic radical terrorists opposed to the western military presence in the Gulf region, explode a truck bomb next to a USAF housing area at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American servicemen and 385 injuring more.
November 1
In Sudan, a breakaway group from the Sudanese People\'s Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) workers, including a U.S. citizen, an Australian, and a Kenyan. On December 9, the rebels released the hostages in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey for their camp.
December 11
Five armed men claiming to be members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) kidnapped and later killed a U.S. geologist at a methane gas exploration site in La Guajira Department
December 17
Twenty-three members of the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA) took several hundred people hostage at a party given at the Japanese Ambassador\'s residence in Lima, Peru. Among the hostages were several U.S. officials, foreign ambassadors and other diplomats, Peruvian Government officials, and Japanese businessmen. The group demanded the release of all MRTA members in prison and safe passage for them and the hostage takers. The terrorists released most of the hostages in December but held 81 Peruvians and Japanese citizens for several months.

1997

February 14
Six armed Colombian guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. oil engineer and his Venezuelan pilot in Apure, Venezuela. The kidnappers released the Venezuelan pilot on February 22. According to authorities, the FARC is responsible for the kidnapping.
February 23
A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."
February 24
National Liberation Army (ELN) guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. citizen employed by a Las Vegas gold corporation who was scouting a gold mining operation in Colombia. The ELN demanded a ransom of $2.5 million.
March 7
FARC guerrillas kidnapped a U.S. mining employee and his Colombian colleague who were searching for gold in Colombia. On November 16, the rebels released the two hostages after receiving a $50,000 ransom.
October 30
Al-Sha\'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. They released the hostage on November 27.
November 12
Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility.

Sorry, gotta stop here, cause message length too long.

flugenluft
13th Apr 2005, 03:29
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

How many paramilitary groups has the US propped up over the years. Your goverment's policies over the past 50 years brought 9/11 on yourselves but sadly will never see it that way.

Sure it was a shocking event that killed 2500, but how many innocent people have been killed by the US's desire for bloodthirsty revenge.

And where are the WMD's?

Toulouse
13th Apr 2005, 08:29
Zehutiman,

Your apologies accepted for "painting most of Europe with such a broad brush. Many non-Americans are criticized for doing that to America, and yet, I just did the same thing. I know there are lots of governments who are on board against terrorism".

May I make one point though. Despite finding your recent posts to be mianly rational and I can agree with most of what you say, here you appear to apologise to the Europeans of the nations which supported Bush. Here I believe you are making the same major mistake many Americans tend to make today. As far as I know, ALL European governments are on board against terrorism. Just because most didn't support Bush, doesn't mean these countries support terrorism. I live in France, and I respect the stance taken by the French government re. Bush's war on terrorism, especially Irak. The French government simply didn't agree with Bush's approach nor did they see the need for attacking Irak and anhialating hundres/thousands of innocent Iraqis. And dare I say, I fully support the French for this stance. The American army ripped into Iraq causing massive and unjustified destruction. Yes, they did catch Hussein, and well done. But unfortunately things are possibly even worse now in Iraq after the US intervention.

And one more point. I firmly believe, that while most Europeans, like most people around the world are Anti-Bush, we are not anti-American.

That's all Zehutiman. :ok:

V1R8... Wake up! The ignorance of your comments are beyond belief. What's your problem with France and Germany? No, please don't even bother answering that. I don't think most of us could stand hearing more futile rubbish.

A few personal comments as this whole thing really winds me up.
Europe is unfortunately well used to living with terrorism. Zehutiman, if you lived here, I'm not sure you'd call it "low-intensity". Your list is interesting in the fact that while America was the target, most events took place on foreign soil, and so it was the locals who had to put up with and get over the vast majority of the destruction caused by these acts. Don't be fooled by my nick. I'm not French, yet while I did once have the typical sterortypical view of the French, I have been living in their country for a few years now and I love France and the French. I doubt there is a more welcoming nation around. I've lived in other countries and had wonderful experiences, but I have never been able to integrate so easily as I have here, and that's thanks to the French.

I'm Irish. I was brought up during the worst years of Northern Ireland terrorism. It was a nightmare. While as a youngster I didn't understand much about the "struggle", it terrified me. I never differentiated between Irish and British, and felt just as much in danger as I'm sure many English did in those times, who unfortunately suffered the blunt of these acts. As I became a teenager, I began to feel ashamed of been Irish. When I travelled abroad, and met English people I used to be ashamed of saying I was Irish and admitting I was Catholic. Then I grew up and realised that I needn't feel this shame or embarrassement, as the terrorists only represent a very small but radical minority. I also lived in Spain for many years, mainly in the capital, Madrid, and so often feared entering a large department store or walking down a certain street due to the frequent terrorist attacks there while back.

I remember spending some time in Geneva some years back,a nd having to travel to France. I was terrified as some group had got into the habit of attacking the TGV (French high-speed trains).

So, in Europe, we've grown up with terrorism, previous generations grew up with the horrors of the two WW's. We've learned/been forced to learn not to be paranoid. We've learned to protect ourselves and get on with our lives without saying farewell to the freedom offered by democracy. Our governements have said to us we need to be more vigilant, maybe enhance security at airports/train stations, close up public rubbish bins (so bombs can't be placed in them... Parisians will well know what I'm talking about, and an endless list of measures instead. Our governments put our armies and specially prepared troops on the street to protect us and make us feel more at ease, instead of sending them off to invade other nations left right and centre. All this I suppose is from experience. The US didn't have this experience, and Bush has gone mad. Americans feel in danger, paranoide, afraid. Unfortunately 9/11 did away with the innocence of 'many' Americans to a certain extent, and now it is clear that America is just as vulnerable as the rest of us. Like little children, and this isn't an insult, simply lack of experience, many Americans have, in my opinion mistakingly, followed their leader, Bush' and bow to his every order.

Here I'm not going to even get into my opinion on the IQ of Bush, but I will say that he has one hell of a marketing team in the White House, as it's just amaing how well he has been able to pull the wool over the eyes of over 50% of Americans.

And my last question to our US friends which I can just never get out of my head. You have surely by now realised that the vast majority of the planet is against your leader, Mr. Bush. Seeing this, how come you don't start to think that something must be wrong with your leader. I mean, how can you be proud of a leader who everyone hates and who has only achieved to turn nearly the entire world against him, and sadly to turn many (even more) against the nation he represents?

Even all our Boeing-bashing and Airbus-bashing has got worse since Bush came into power!
:\

CargoMatatu
13th Apr 2005, 10:00
Here, here, Toulouse! Couldn't have put it better!:ok:

May the Matatu be with you.

Matatu Man:cool:

Pilgrim101
13th Apr 2005, 11:14
Grandpa

On behalf of Pprune and Laura Bush, I commend your restraint !!

:p :ok:

one_ball
13th Apr 2005, 11:50
How do you say it, by the way... is it "Tool oose"??? You can't help yourself, can you?Your post was actually bordering on interesting and intelligent, then you ****ed it up.Try harder.

XXTSGR
13th Apr 2005, 12:00
Scrubbed, I have asked Iraqis what they think of the US invasion and occupation of their country and imposition of what GWB sees as "democracy".

They hate it. They tell me that the country is worse than it ever was. Lawlessness everywhere, very little effort going in to sorting out the infrastructure (except oil), car hijackings, kidnappings and murder everyday occurrences.

And, as has been pointed out, when you resort to stupid insults in response to a well-argued post, you have already lost the argument.

BootFlap
13th Apr 2005, 12:15
XXTSGR,

so Murder and Kipnappings are now a daily event in Iraq? That must be a huge change from the previous regime then! No murder, torture or genocide committed by Saddam was there?

zehutiman
13th Apr 2005, 13:18
How many paramilitary groups has the US propped up over the years.
Flugenluft...paramilitary groups? Nice try. But would you like to discuss how many billions and billions of dollars were spent by the tyranical United States of America in helping rebuild Germany (and many other countries) after it attempted to singlehandedly destroy the world?

Didn't think so.

Mo

Pilgrim101
13th Apr 2005, 14:11
XX

Tosh ! As a security consultant in Baghdad and several outstations throughout Iraq, your assertion is at best speculative and at worst the usual "anti war" drivel.

Which Iraqis have you asked ? Presumably none of the eight million who voted recently for the first time or members of the countless hundreds of thousands of families who lost relatives and loved ones to Saddam's Mukhabarat butchers.

I understand that even the anti war press in UK acknowledge the significant downturn in violence. It is encouraging that the Iraqis want us out now since they do feel more secure, Zarqawi is on the run (from the Iraqis due to his murderous actions against young Iraqi Guardsmen and Police) and the insurgency at last is seen for what it truly was by a decent population who now want to run their own affairs. The insurgents have lost thousands of rabid nutters in Fallujah as one example and they have now lost the hearts and minds of a previously cowed population. The terrorists need safe havens and there are fewer and fewer boltholes here for them.

Capt.KAOS
13th Apr 2005, 14:20
after it attempted to singlehandedly destroy the world Never knew the Germans were fighting on Guadalcanal?

Curious Pax
13th Apr 2005, 14:31
Pilgrim101 - you may well be right (and you are certainly in a better position to know). However does that not reinforce the argument that a bit more attention to the post war plan before invading Iraq would have meant a lot less than 2 years to get to this point? The post war plan as it was seemed to be:

1) depose Saddam and his associates
2) receive the garlands of flowers from deliriously chuffed locals
3) fix some of the infrastructure using our mates companies as far as we can
4) err ... that's it.

Now although I don't agree with the way that the war came about or was justfied beforehand, the successful execution of item 1 is a good thing. But the remainder of the plan was cloud cuckoo land. But it didn't have to be done like that. The reason that the insurgents did get so much support (and they did early on even if they don't now) was that for a large number of Iraqis things got worse immediately after Saddam was ousted. That made for very fertile ground for anti US factions to gather support, and it is only now that the anarchy in the country is reducing (helped by the holding of the elections) that things are being turned round.

As such, a bit more planning/expense up front would have saved many of the lives, and rebuilding costs expended in the last couple of years.

If a group of people feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are in a hopeless position, then violence will inevitably follow. You can go 2 ways - the hard military response to suppress the violence, or do something about the hopelessness.

I hesitate to use it as an example knowing the usual reaction on here, but does the last few months in the Israeli-Palestinian situation not demonstrate this? Palestinian feelings of the hopelessness of their situation were one of the main factors in the intifada, but with the change of leadership, and the generally positive response to it by the Israelis and Americans, there is more hope in the eyes of your average Palestinian, and the general level of violence seems to have diminished greatlyas a result. I'm not saying things there are perfect, or that violence has disappeared, but at a distance of 1000+ miles it certainly seems a lot better than this time last year.

Pilgrim101
13th Apr 2005, 18:02
Curious

What an excellent riposte ! :ok: If I was so clever I might be somewhere else of course ? Thanks for the warm fuzzy feeling but War is a fairly inexact science and sh!t does happen. My experience(s) out here would certainly confirm your assessment of the post war chaos and, quite frankly, the sh!t magnet that Iraq became to the psychotics out in the region didn't help the transition.

Like your cogent reasoning though, but as I said if you walk across a firing range in UK it could get fairly dangerous. Everyone out here has or had access to lethal weaponry for a while, and Saddam's cynical release of sociopathic killers from his many prisons just before the fall was a masterstroke on his part.

To demonstrate the theory, open all the doors at Broadmoor, disband the police force and watch the effect on the local Berkshire community for a wee while until normal service is resumed. Proves both our points I think. ;)

zehutiman
13th Apr 2005, 22:45
Never knew the Germans were fighting on Guadalcanal?

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...?"

John Belushi
Animal House :cool:

Blacksheep
14th Apr 2005, 02:40
You kill me, I kill you; it goes on and on and on and on... ad infinitum

When will it ever stop?

My Grandmother in Law still fondly remebers the cardboard box she received in 1946. It had the American flag on the side - good 'ol Glory - and it contained the ingredients for the first decent meal the family had eaten since 1942. That cardboard box, multiplied many times over for each family that received one, had a far greater beneficial effect - for the USA as well as the recipients - than all the napalm and agent orange dropped on a near neighbour a few years later.

Being nice to people earns friendship and friendship leads to peace.

Peace Brothers.:ok:

XXTSGR
14th Apr 2005, 02:41
Pilgrim:-As a security consultant in Baghdad and several outstations throughout Iraq, your assertion is at best speculative and at worst the usual "anti war" drivel.Sorry, not drivel, not an assertion, but almost a direct quote from several Iraqis trying to live, work and support their families in Iraq today. You may not like it, but given your record of posts, that wouldn't surprise me. One quote I don't have exactly to hand but I can remember the gist of it was "At least in the days of Saddam we knew all we had to do was avoid upsetting the Ba'ath party. Now we never know. Anyone can get upset and anyone can kill our families."

Pilgrim101
14th Apr 2005, 05:18
XX

Well you'll acknowledge I don't contribute too much (:8 ) or too often due to the logistics problems posed by my current job.

However I believe the thousands of highly talented Iraqis in exile flooding back to the Country since Saddam's demise will continue to make an exponential difference to the economy and stability required now.

They were in exile to save their lives. The Iraqis who stayed under the regime either complied, surrendered to their fate or collaborated with Saddam so it's not surprising that the uncertain transition period generates fear of the unknown for the Iraqis you refer to .

Surely you don't believe that their "preference" for the status quo under Saddam and his psychopathic sons is based on anything other than their need for self preservation ? Incidentally, many Iraqis are getting on with their lives whilst those who relied on the favours of the previous regime have a total dependency mindset, waiting for us to deliver food, water, utilities and complaining when they have to work for it.

The expectation that the Iraqi population would stick flowers down our gun barrels was never real on the ground, only in the imagination and Western perceptions of those who watched the sanitised video game that GW1 and Bosnia became for example.

PTT
14th Apr 2005, 09:19
their need for self preservation
You mean that single most basic of human (and animal) instincts? Yeah, screw that...

Toulouse
14th Apr 2005, 09:41
Scrubbed. What a pity... I won't even lower myself to your level to garce your post with a proper answer.
BTW, might bea good idea to get some spelling lessons, or better glasses. It's T O U L O U S E!

CargoMatatu. Thanks.:ok:

XXTSGR and One_ball. Thanks also.

Curious Pax: Very good post.

Blacksheep. Unfortunately many may accuse your sentiments of being naïve. Pity more people can't think the same as you appear to. Way to go...

One more point, this thread appears to have been split from its original thread and retitled "Our terrorism is worse than your terrorism". Anyway, good point in this title. One death by terrorism is ATROCIOUS and is one death TOO MANY.

Us Europeans and Americans recently seem to fallen into the trap of competing... who has the biggest, best, richest... Sad...

Grandpa
14th Apr 2005, 11:04
Discussion here goes often about this question:

"Is Iraq now a better place than under Saddam regime?"
(...........for Iraqis!)

Trying to answer, you could find other places and situations to enlighten your reflexion:

"Is Russia now a better place than under Communist regime?"
Now many Russian are thinking that the corrupted Putin regime is worse than what they had before.
No that they ignore the past, but Stalin atrocities are far away, and day to day reality is unbearable for most of them: misery, health system in decay, life expectancy shortened...........and in front of them they can see mafia apparatchik stealing every part of nation wealth, investing in football teams, Riviera villas while young Russian girls work as prostitutes in western Europe cities.

So they come to think: we hadn't to endure this in the past!

Same with Iraq: criminality, terrorism, kidnapping, US blunders make day life so hard the same psycholigical move is spreading.

XXTSGR
15th Apr 2005, 02:52
The expectation that the Iraqi population would stick flowers down our gun barrels was never real on the ground, only in the imagination and Western perceptions of those who watched the sanitised video game that GW1 and Bosnia became for example.Like Donald Rumsfeld and GWB, for example?

Incidentally, I have nowhere stated that the Iraqis with whom I am in contact are upset that Saddam Hussein has been removed. Mostly they are upset at the apparent assumption by the occupying Americans that they should be greeted everywhere by cheering, waving crowds despite their determination to secure oil at the expense of everything else and their apparent disregard for the basic security needs of the populace.

Jodiekeyz
18th Apr 2005, 11:03
The US are a bunch of bottom feeding cave people..don't listen to their crap......

Toulouse
18th Apr 2005, 12:34
ok scrubbed. I have to laugh at that myself...

Virgil32
18th Apr 2005, 14:50
Well, we, in the U.S. put a c- student into the white house (bush) and let a c- student run the "so-called" war (franks). Criticism of the TSA is easy when you consider who's in charge.