Oxford Aviation (APP)

[pherbert]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and wondered if any of you had any experience or suggestions for the most viable route to becoming a commercial pilot operating out of the UK. Oxford aviation school operate an airline preparation programme (APP), just wondered if any of you knew how credible the programme was in gaining newly qualified students First Officer positions within the airlines. The school seem very proud of their proven teaching methods and articulate very strong relationships with all the major airlines.

Anyone who knows anymore about the course or has any tips for progression of a career for a self-funded student I would much appreciate it.

Thanks in advance

Paul.

[Zulu Yankee]

I also have a question, for a integrated CPL, which would you attend if both were feasible? Cabair or oxford?

[Yorkshire-Pud]

.....Firstly I don't work for Oxford, but I did do an integrated course there in 1999 (although not the APP)

The key to Oxford is to work very hard and do well in both Groundschool and Flying so as to make it very easy for them to 'place' you with a 'customer' airline - It's all about risk for them if you have a consistently good record in both disciplines then their risk recommending you lessens. They may tell you that it's about the individual and it should be but I would suggest they are results driven firstly because if you fail with an airline they placed you with it's costly for them

Now having said that, joining their APP programme (which I understand is v.expensive) is not the only way to get an airline job. Friends of mine who have airline jobs went to both Cabair and to Jerez and as for me, well I now fly 737-800's after a short stint on turbo-props. So it worked out for us all.

[adwjenk]

Hi


Out of Cabair or Oxford

Oxford anyday. Why? There so proffesional and out going. Always willing to help anyone.
I got an excellent impression from OAT.
But Cabair didant seem to care when i was down there.
Trying to make sure the FlyBE guys got there grades!!!!!!

[pherbert]

Could you please differentiate between the offerings mentioned through cabair etc. I have an openday booked for Oxford later this month and would be looking to make a decision as to the most viable, time and cost efficient route to gaining the necessary credentials.

[scroggs]

Cost-efficient? Then why are you looking at APP?! You can do your ATPL far more cheaply, as a casual look through this forum would show.

As for the likelihood of employment, the most important factor is the health of the airline industry at the time of your graduation. This is not something that's very easy to predict with any accuracy; there are several occasions over the last 10 years when considerably better-qualified observers than I have got it wrong!

When you go to Oxford (or any other school offering a similar course), have some fairly searching questions ready for their employment liaison people. Oxford claim a very high number of their students are employed by airlines within a short period of graduation. See if you can get specifics, and ask whether the rate has been consistent over, say, the last 10 years. It's easy to claim credit in the good years, but it's when times are more difficult that the true quality of the school's employment-seeking prcedures and personnel will become apparent.

Ask, also, what proportion of graduates found jobs through their own efforts, as opposed to those who were employed as a direct result of the school's efforts. Posts here over the last year or so suggest that some schools may not have been totally honest in their claims to have 'found employment' for their students - if, in fact, you are going to have to do all the leg work, what are you paying the school for?

Do not be too easily swayed by any school's marketing hype. They want to sell you their course so that they can make a profit out of you; they are not in this to get a warm and fuzzy feeling by being nice to people. They'll often tell you what they think you want to hear - so ask questions that make them reveal the downsides. For instance, how many fATPL graduates of their school do not get an airline job within a year of graduation? They won't want to tell you, because the number will be larger than they are comfortable with, but it's an essential point of comparison for you, and a reality check about what you are getting into.

There is no single guaranteed way of getting an airline job from scratch. The big schools would like you to believe that they have a monopoly on getting people into first jobs; they don't. For every APP graduate that gets hired, there are several modular students doing so. Don't get blinkered in your approach, look at all the options, and ask lots of searching questions especially when someone appears to start offering more than they can reasonably deliver!

Scroggs

[Blinkz]

I totally agree with Scroggs. Nothing is guaranteed in this industry.

I'm currently trying to decide between modular and integrated. I have to admit that I think if two totally identical people, one with modular training and one with integrated training, the integrated would probably be choosen. Integrated generally seems to have a more professional reputation. However I find it hard to justify the extra £20,000 for perhaps a slightly improved job chance then modular.

[sk8erboi]

A friend was recently at EMA for a Sim ride with Ryan. Two blokes there from integrated course at Oxford, qualified two years ago and still no job. They said that Oxford had more or less forgotten them now.
Incidentally he got the job, and was a modular chap.

[pherbert]

I think it is clear that not much in life is guaranteed (Only taxes and death as my Nan used to say) especially in a volatile industry subject to so many factors. All I am trying to identify is a route that gives you the best possible grounding/training and from there be in a position to leverage airline relationships. Clearly an organisation like Oxford must have the required credibility.

Are there any published league tables/Success Lists for such schools, if so can anyone help

[GRANTS]

Integrate course is a risk.
why?...
If you are very good (90% and above ATPL exams, great flying, first time flight exams and good personality), you will have a fair chance to get an interview.
you have to be a fast learner and work hard, as life is intense in Integrated.
if you think you are the man, by all means go for it.
If you are not that type, you better go Modular, other wise you are shooting yourself in the leg.
some people here could have done a lot better if they just had more time.
more time doesn´t exist in Integrated...

[9mm]

Grants, You make a very good point.

The only guys I know that regret choosing the integrated route were those that didn’t make the most of it. Not making the most of it meant that they were bottom of the pile when it came to being put forward for interviews. Six weeks later there was a new crop of guys finishing their MCC ready for the school to cream off the best and recommend them for interviews, pushing earlier guys even further down any list the school may or may not have! I reckon they do have a list even if it is only scribbled on the back of an envelope stuffed in the liaison man's back pocket!

If they had gone down the modular route not only would they have saved (a lot of) cash they would have far better results both in flying and ground school. They would also not have a bitter taste in their mouths. If you choose integrated you have to be able to give it your all. There can be many reasons for not being able to do so which have nothing to do with raw ability or determination. As I have written in another post on this forum you have to look at the best option that suits your own specific personal circumstances.

Also as Scroggs has said above, and to repeat, do not get blinkered when considering the viability of either different FTOs or different routes to that very chilled ATPL and certainly do not get taken in with the marketing hype of a school. The most powerful selling tool of any FTO is the publicising of previous students who are now in F/O positions. Never forget that for those that have succeeded in landing a job there will always be those that have not and may not for a good while yet. That said there are over 90% of Oxford APP grads that now have jobs although some took longer than others to land their first break. Although there seems to be more new-hires than a year or so ago, I personally think it is unrealistic that Oxford’s 90% employment rate can be maintained.

Pherbert, My advice to you regarding the integrated route (I know you ask about the APP but I think the same applies to all integrated courses) is that you should go for it if, and only if, you can tick all of the following boxes:

Raw ability

Unshakable determination

Absolutely no doubt that you will be able to give it your all for the duration

Willing to make (possibly big) sacrifices along the way

Integrated suits your circumstances

You accept that even if you meet all of the above criteria you will still be rolling a dice


If you do have all of the above and do decide to go for it you will have sixty or seventy thousand reasons to make it work!!

Good Luck!!

9mm

[no sponsor]

I am a current modular student (doing my IR right now) and I would say that if you can afford it, go to the APP at Oxford. I have spoken to many people, some ex-Oxford students, and those students are getting jobs through Oxford contacts. Almost all APP students have gotten jobs. Even some students pre-APP have recently been put forward by Oxford and have interviews.

The modular route is difficult, many of the ex-students at my school have only got jobs through type rating onto the ATRs. Many have just returned to their previous jobs. (You could then argue that the extra £20K makes sense for an APP course).

The modular schools have few contacts, don't lobby the industry, and hence it remains a long hard slog.

[Elixir]

I'm currently on the APP at OAT - a year ago I was deliberating over whether to go modular or full integrated, considered lots of advice and decided integrated was going to be the best for me. It doesn't suit everybody - there are lots of people who have to stay back a course or two in order to get the results they want, and at times it can feel quite competitive. But I have absolutely no regrets and am looking forward to finishing in the next few months and looking for work.

I have friends finishing every few weeks at the moment and am amazed at how many are getting jobs.....and quickly too! OAT is recognised as a very good school and I don't think you'd regret embarking on the APP course as long as you can be sure that you will give it your best shot (and have a nice bank manager!!!). At the end of the day it is an expensive way to do it but whichever route you choose wont make a difference in the grand scheme of things!

[Dave Martin]

Elixir,

Got a question for you re: integrated, not necessarily appling to just Oxford, but related more to the "competitiveness" you mention.

I get the impression, on a course for this length of time, where everyone is relying on being a step ahead of the other candidates in order to get the job reccomendation that in some people the "competitive" streak could get a bit much.

Not a big fan of ass-lickers I have to say, but in your experience, might integrated courses like this be a bit more prone to this kind of thing?

Cheers!

[pherbert]

Elixir,

Nice to see such a positive outlook with regard to OAT. I was beginning to wonder how these guys actually recruit new students with some of the comments prior. I understand all will have different view points but think it is a case of really assessing your personal circumstances as you did.

Anymore thoughts please

Regards

Paul.

[Elixir]

Dave,

There were a number of occasions during groundschool and flying phase where I witnessed students with real competitive streaks! But then again competition is only natural if you consider the industry we are in...and I also think you will encounter competition whatever you decide to do.

I have a feeling that the course will have been much more competitive a year or two ago, but now the schools are placing many more students into jobs than they ever could before so theres much less reason for students to compete against each other. It's difficult for me to say whether integrated is more competitive than modular, as I have never experienced a modular course, but I wouldnt say it's a huge issue that should determine your decision as to which route to take. The biggest differences to consider are the intensity of the course and the dent to your bank account!!

[Aviation kid]

Elixir,

Please check your PM's:ok:

AK