RN Aircrew- Rejected!!

[EF2020]

I left a new topic yesterday asking about whether I would still possibly be called up to AIB even though I failed for Observer aptitude test, but passed Pilot and ATC with good scores...

Just to let people know, I found out today I wouldn't be considered as Pilot, as I failed Observer and it is a requirement in the FAA to pass both Observer and Pilot to proceed to AIB as a Pilot candidate.....

However, my heart is still set on becoming a Pilot..... does anybody know if I have any chance going for RAF Pilot selection, even though I failed Observer for the FAA?? If anybody could help, It would be hugely appreciated, as I am unsure on my next step!!

[Pub User]

The RAF used to be the same - you had to pass both pilot and navigator aptitudes to be accepted as a pilot. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I suspect it is. Have you thought about the Army Air Corps?

[6foottanker]

Fellow brummie:

Always worth trying, it's your life and career. After all, you've now got a little bit of experience of what the tests involve now, which might help.
As long as you're fit, young enough and have some idea of what you're letting yourself in for, anyway.

Trouble is, the RAF aren't exactly lapping up new pilots at the mo.

6'

[L1A2 discharged]

If at first you don't succeed ........

If you are committed enough keep trying all avenues, have your reasons in line for the interview questions.

Even whilst the driver and platform numbers are being reduced 'we' do still need fresh blood.

edited for poor dexterity

[idle-centralise]

give it a go, the worst thing they can do (assuming you haven't taken the aptitude too many times) is tell you to come back in a year

I-C

[reacher]

Im in the same prediciment, albeit on the different side of the world

Only just failed pilot selection ( failed instrument reading by 5/8s)
I was offered any other airecrew position but politly told the shrink "thanks but no thanks"

here's to another yr of waiting. But it's going to be a good yr of waiting i can tell u. ;)

Idle: if you are really after it wait the yr. Take some time off to relax, i know i need some more, i was studying my arse off for a few months before, mainly maths s/t/d.

Just have a fun few months then get back into it a few months before re-testing, u know what to expect now and where u went wrong. Two good things to be able to focus on.

[zorrotfb]

Not sure if it's still the case but myself and a mate both applied for flying scholarships, I was awarded one but he was rejected as he failed the Navigator aptitude tests.

However when we applied for Pilot selection apparently he still failed the Nav tests but they had changed the rules governing entry and was given the nod. First tour was as a Hawk QFI. Wonder what his Nav was like ;)

Should be easy to find out for sure.

[APO Dried Plum]

I'm not sure if its any help now but in 2000 I was accepted by OASC for pilot having failed nav but passing the other 5-4(?) tests.
Good luck
Rgds Plum

[vector801]

Hey EF2020,


If you’re still adamant on becoming a Pilot in the Mil why not ask to take the tests again in a year’s time, as long as your age isn't a factor you should be alright.

I'm 23, turning 24 in July and have re-applied for a Commission with the RN for aircrew. On Mon 18/4 I go to RAF Cranwell for my 3rd attempt at FATS!!!!!!

This will actually be my fourth time there as I visited in 97 for my RN Gliding Scholarship, 99 for FATS which I failed miserably, 02 where I passed for Pilot with an apparently amazing score (Go Figure???) but failed Observer.

In order for me to get another go I had to write a very detailed letter to the Admiralty covering aspects such as, why they should let me take the tests again, what I can offer the RN, Chronologically ordering events such as my attendances on RN Gliding Scholarship, Staff College Sea Day Visit and POAC at RNAS Culdrose. Eventually ending the letter detailing my desires to become an RN Officer FIRST and WHY, then why I want to fly with the FAA. It worked as they obviously see something in me of potential.

My advice is if you want something..... and you want it REAL BAD (like me) then put that Passion and Determination into a drive and a will to succeed. I think that sort of attitude will get you anything you want in this world.

All the very best with your applications and Good Luck for the Future.

John

[Blakey]

My main advice is never say "never".

It was a long time ago and slightly different when I applied to the Navy for a university Bursary as a pilot. I failed pilot but was offered a place at Dartmouth prior to Observer training. By then I had started my degree and decided to see it to the end (grants and no tuition fees then).

I came to my senses and realised that on a grey ship for weeks on end I wouldn't be able to go to the pub and chase women on a regular basis so applied for the RAF. I passed both pilot and nav this time (same tests as FAA but I'd prepared) but I was offered Nav as the scores were better. Politely declined saying I would reapply to be a pilot as long as age was on my side but not shutting the nav door (Remember that they want you to be an officer first and pilot/nav second). Got in as a pilot, convinced I'd be chopped and go Nav but determined to enjoy the flying in the meantime. Imagine my surprise when, despite many hoorendous faux pas, it was other guys getting chopped and I ended up with the best job in the world.

Alot has changed in the world since then but some things remain the same.

1. Perserverance - enough said. All the above was after 2 previous attempts at RAIB so it took me about 5 attempts in the end - but worth it.
2. Check what the rules are and what is expected. Then work to those rules. So be polite in "temporarily" declining other offers to perservere for what you want but remember to stress (whatever you really think) that you want to be an officer in the RAF (or RN) first and foremost but you think you'd best reapply for pilot as you think you can do it. etc etc.
3. Don't be fooled by the "aptitude" title of the tests. You can prepare for them. It's not cheating it's using your brain - the most important tool of an aviator. You've done one set of aptitude tests so you know what to expect. I don't know how they do it now but there was plenty you could do to practice beforehand (for 2nd attempts at least). Also find out when you sit the tests if it still a case of no negative marking. If there still isn't any, with 30 seconds to go on the paper tests, just guess all the remaining answers. It is a case of getting the best score.
4. Don't fall for the "change branches once you're in" line from recruiters. There are a few examples but very few.

It was in the late 70's early 80's I did all of the above. Many things will have changed but I expect the basic principles will still apply. Finally, best of luck. I may not get even one number in the lottery every week, but I will never deny that I was, and still am, a very lucky man to do what I do for a living.

All the best .

Blakey

[EF2020]

Cheers guys- They told me, due to the fact I am 21, I wouldn't be able to take the FAT's again, and that I wouldn't improve, but it's so obvious that I would, as I know what is involved- I am trying to find out if the RAF would still possibly accept me for pilot, as I got a good FAA pilot pass, but failed observer......What about the AAC? Would I reach their matriculation requirements?

[Pontius Navigator]

EF2020 you failed observer aptitude tests. You did NOT fail navigator atitude tests. Let OASC decide whether you are fit or not.

Then remember they are recruiting officers before aircrew. You will be an officer all of the time and aircrew only some of the time.

If you apply to be pilot or bust then they will happily assess you as pilot or bust. If you then failed pilot aptitude they would not offer you nav.

Not sure what is now involved in nav apptitude as they have fially stopped recuriting for the Lancaster force and there is precious little difference betwixt back and front of a 2-seater and lots of the ME are also 2-seaters!

[rafloo]

Hi EF202. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you have just failed the first hurdle in a marathon of hurdles....

There is a reason that you failed and that is pure and simple that you are not the correct calibre of person.


The flying training system is a long and arduous route and chances are that you wouldn't have made it...thats why the selection process stopped your flying training before it began....sorry fella but thats the way it is

[EF2020]

Sorry Rafloo, but I think that is a little bit of an overstatement and your statement was extremely negative.... I know I have what it takes, and who are you to try and put me down and force me to "face facts"....... I'm sure there are plenty of pilots out there who were in the same position as me....

[vector801]

Hey EF202,


Good reply,

Just remember, if you fall from the Horse you have got to get back on it.

Tell me Rafloo, when I failed FATS in 99 with abysmal scores I was told that I would never fly, 6 months later I was in SA getting my PPL going solo after 8.5 hours of flying in a TMA of all places.

It was the case that I 'Faced Facts' and new exactly what I wanted to be and nothing was going to get in my way.

You explain to me why I got one of the best Pilot Scores the RN has ever had at OASC when 3 years previous my score was so low that the RN didn't even consider me for a re-try.

I'll tell u why, because I pulled me Finger From My Ar*e!! and new what I had to do, and how to go about doing it. Pity I was so young and naive that I failed AIB, but that’s a different matter all together.

It is people like you that inspire a major lack of faith in people, especially when it comes to them lacking a realization in Potential.


I rest my Case......

[Tourist]

Just one point,
some people will try to tell you that you are an officer first an a pilot second in the Military.
B@llocks!
I know some damn fine pilots who are so un-officerlike they make me look professional!
It only matters if you are interested in promotion, which the vast majority are not, except that we'd all like the extra pay.
This officer first rubbish is always put around by the weaker pilots, GL types to excuse their poor performance in the air by saying it is the lesser part of their job. I know who I'd rather go to war with out of the choice between the excellent staff work, smartly turned out broadening jobbed snivelor or the gash shag scruffy aviator who is competent at his job, ie flying

[EF2020]

Thanks Vector, I can't stand people who try and put others down....If I didn't have potential to be a pilot, I don't think I would have got a good pilot pass for FAA otherwise.....Maybe I'm not good enough for the Navy, but I think I have a good chance elsewhere..... :)

[Tourist]

Have another go EF2020, they can only say no, and if you just join the crabs instead you will always know you went for second best.
I failed observer aptitude, and I wear it as a badge of honour, freaks that they are.;)
The rules have changed at the moment which I think is mad since we are so short of pilots, and you passed for pilot. Try again, and ignore rafloo. for some reason he is being a d1ck

[EF2020]

Cheers Tourist- They say they won't give me a second shot due to the fact I am 21 though....I do sort of understand their needs for the next gen. of Pilots to be not only Pilots, but Observers, but I only failed by 10 percent ish on Observer.........

My Careers Liaison Officer told me I won't get a second shot, as there is an exponential learning curve from the age of 15-20, and over 21 apparently, learning curve decreases, which I find hard to believe, as apparently some of the aptitude is said to be innate, but you can train yourself to improve....

[Pontius Navigator]

Tourist, I am sorry you think what you do but I have it from very well connected sources. You were quite right that 'pilots' were waved through the system as they would not need to be that much of an officer.

That has all changed.

We no longer need that many pilots. Those that enter in to training and then fail may, if they are very good officer material, be offered a new branch. CAS, only the other day, gave the good news which was that civvy street was a high probablity for failed aircrew. Could be 'cause they were not good officer material?

Sad, but true.

[Si Clik]

Pontius,

The RN is now exactly the same.

The reason we have insisted on applicants passing for both is that this group of people have a much better chance of making it to Fast Jet training. Additionally they have much more capacity to deal with ever more complex aircraft.

Just because you have a shortage does NOT mean standards will be lowered as this inevitably leads to higher training wastage.

For Tourist if you can't prove you can be good officer material both at AIB and BRNC you won't get in.

:hmm:

[Pontius Navigator]

SI Clik, thank you. My source confirms that the RAF P & N tests are unrelated. True a pass in both shows a flow rate training risk and a P/F shows a higher risk.

Provided there are insufficient P/P candidates then I think the system would accept a P pass and an N fail into training but, as I said earlier, the probablity of a further career after failing P trg would be remote and aircrew remote to vanishing point.

Bottom line though is nothing ventured nothing gained and the RN Observer aptitude tests are quite different from the RAF.

[L J R]

come-on guys, take the good with the bad and YOU decide the course of action. Careful of 'biting' at a reply that you consider negative on the thread, If you bite as easily to criticism when you are a Mil Pilot (or aircrew), you will not last long. Whether you like the comments or not, take note of them and self-filter the BS. Deep down, there is often a point to all replies to topics like these, and emotions will get you nowhere.

By the Way. Good Luck. I initially became a Nav(25 yrs ago I might add) -having failed Pilot selection. I too told them to 'stick it!', but was convinced to change my mind, and was lucky enough afterwards to somehow re-apply once 'in' and became a FJ pilot 6 years later.

My point is:

Never Give UP!!!

[Tourist]

The average age on my flight upon entry at BRNC was 25...........go figure.
Well at least the standard of people we get under these new recruiting proceedures is better, oh no it isnt is it. Why are we insisting that you have to be fast jet capable from apptitudes, when we are now so desperate that even the observers now get a go at pilot grading. Do you have to pass pilot to be a observer? if not, that seems to be the route to go for. Pass observer aptitude only, join up, do pilot grading, pass become pilot!:yuk:

[vecvechookattack]

My point was that IF you were to slip through the net then you would be joining a Flying training system which would last about 3 years. During which...every day, you would be assessed, tested, questioned...looked at with a fine tooth comb...every day....

You failed on day one. What chance you make it to day 850 ?

[reacher]

Im interested in why the brits activly seek such young ppl to fly. From what i have heard the ADF tried that a few yrs ago and found that the maturity levels of the final line pilots to be very low and standards dropped a little.
Maybe it's just a yoof/demographic thing?!

It is not uncommen over here for there to be applicants on pilot course in their mid 30's and they still get thru.

EF2020: keep at it mate, pretty soon that brick wall will start to crumble :ok:

[airborne_artist]

You failed on day one. What chance you make it to day 850 ?

2020 - Don't listen to him - do your research, push, pester, and find a way round the problem. Then come back and tell vecve where to put it.

One of the oldest guys on the course after me (way back in 78) was already a qualified barrister, and I think 25 - and he was streamed SHAR direct from EFT.

[vecvechookattack]

Im not concerned about age....one of my bestest buddies was well over 30 when he started BOC....and he came top....

But the difference with him was that he passed grading, he passed everything....

This bloke failed initial selection....what chance that he'll pass BRNC, BOC etc etc.... there is a reason why he failed and that is he is not good enough....the Flying Training selection process is tried and tested and works....

[reacher]

So only those that pass first time are "real" pilots then?

What about the applicants that fail, but work their butts of on the areas that need improvement then pass, that show drive and dedication to be in that seat? Dont they have just as much right, if not more to be on that course, in that flight seat, on that sortie?

[vecvechookattack]

No, No....im all for drive and determination...BUT this bloke failed the First sortie...in so much as the powers that be said he wasnt even good enough to START flying training...never mind finish it..

[EmergingCyclogenesis]

I agree with VEC. It is very easy to pass the buck onto a later stage of training. You need to recruit people who have a very good chance of achieving the aims within a tight timescale.

Now, no disrepect to this guy, most people, if you give them enough time will reach the required standard. But, the problem is that they take so long to get there that they clog the training system up and take valuable hours away from other trainees only to get chopped at a very late stage. This is a waste of limited resources.

You have to have a suitable filter system, it has been in use for many years and is a trusted and tried method, however unfair it might seem to some individuals who fall foul.

EF 2020, I wish you the best of luck, I echoe the setiments of others, that you must keep pushing for what you want, don't just roll over and die.

:ok:

[airborne_artist]

vecve

While it's true - 2020 has failed the current test standard, it's also true that there are plenty of guys out there who only passed pilot testing (at BH in my day) and went on to complete. The only guys to get chopped from my grading had passed P and O, yet several made wings with only a P pass.

[vecvechookattack]

That may have been the case many years ago but times change and aircraft change, become more complex and more techno....

The fact is that today you need to pass both P and O and if you don't achieve the required standard then yr out....

[reacher]

So the person who fails the first round of spec/apitude testing doesn't deserve to be there?

So only the people who pass everything first time are going to be pilots? Im sure there are loads of people out there to prove this wrong.

Yes it's good to have natural ability but isn't it just as good to work really your arse off the achieve what u want. It doesn't make u any less of a pilot/applicant/person, probably makes u more so.

[vector801]

Hey all,


Can see where everyone is coming from on the thread, and I know the Mil must have a standard which they must adhere to.......

But why when you are briefed about FATS at RAF Cranwell are you told that you are allowed two attempts at them??

Then to find out 1 year later like I did that u wouldn't be able to re-take them!!!!

You Lying Misleading Bas**rds comes to mind!!!!

When I asked why I wasn't to re-take them I was told my scores were abysmal....... and they probably were and I'll tell u why.


Because I was Sh*t Scared of sitting them. To think that this batch of tests to which, ability wise u can do little to prepare for is a major hurdle to overcome. Fitness Tests and Interviews u can really prepare for and have got just a good a chance to pass as anyone, but not FATS. It was only through asking and pestering and proving that I could overcome my nerves did the real me pass FATS Second time around.

My point is, Yes there has to be a standard that we must achieve and rightly so for Training Purposes/Costs. But if you're going to tell me that if I fail, I get another go..... I WANT ANOTHER GO!!!!!!

[EF2020]

I'm sorry mate- but I did not "Fail"- I passed pilot with a good scores and ATC but marginally failed Observer- and also, in regards to having to take crtitcism, I can take criticism, but when the criticism is not constructive and purely negative, I think I have the right to respond............Think about it, I'm sure you have the ability to reason......

[idle-centralise]

Think you are all missing the original point of the post. This guy has "not" failed pilot aptitude, he failed observer. As the RAF doesn't have observers I don't see why this matters. Go to OASC and give it a go with the scores you already have mate.

And don't give up til you have a piece of paper in front of you from a very important person saying "sorry bloke but we're never going to let you in"

And then try again. If its what you want dont give up.

I-C

[baronmanfred]

If anything, with future Pilots being more 'systems operators' than stick monkeys, it is only right that Observer aptitude is more important. This is why the RN insist on having passed both WELL!.

Typhoon/JSF Pilots don't need the awesome hand-eye co-ordination that Harrier pilots did - the a/c will fly itself. Instead, they will need to operate millions of systems at once which really maxes you out. I presume this is how pilot and obs aptitudes differ. Pilot being purely the hand-eye/reaction stuff, with Obs being all the horrible-all-at-once-things that make you sweat like MJ/calculations stuff.

To be blunt, if you can't do it in front of a PC in a small room, how can you expect to do it a 500 kts whilst trying to bomb someone with missiles coming at you?

[vecvechookattack]

Exactly....well said that man.

Now bugger off and let us (who did pass both aptitudes well and subsequently sailed through flying training) defend those who are not clever enough to answer a few tricky maths questions.

[Tourist]

There are more than one well known RN pilots who have never passed pilot aptitude at all, and many who got great aptitude scores that get chopped. That shows the quality of the system to me.

[baronmanfred]

There will always be a few specimens that either flunk the aptitudes than go on to be sky gods or ace the aptitudes but can't wipe their own @rse. However, this is not the norm and I'm sure that if you examine the trend over the years it implies that generally the ones who achieve a better aptitude score are less likely to fail flying trg at some point. With the lack of funds today, you need the best possible indication that someone who starts training will finish to the required standrad.

As has been discussed many times before, essentially you can teach anyone to fly; given enough time. BUT Less funds = less time = more risk of getting chopped, thus entry standrads MUST be raised.

It can't possibly make sense to do it any other way.

[Pontius Navigator]

One of you alluded to the fact that anyone can pass given enough time. Well the short answer is we don't give them eough time. We place increasingly high hurdles along the way.

At Nav school the process was quite simple. For the first 5 flights each was practiced in the sim twice. If they reached exercise 6 there was a surprise - only one sim. Then the flight itself involved a no notice diversion to a strange airfield. If they passed 6 they usually passed 7 and 8 as well. 9 was really a no-fail sortie at the end of basics.

Next was a switch to (F)J on the JP. No matter whether they were to be streamed FJ or ME they all had to pass this hurdle. Then on to advanced nav training. Even at the final nav check they could be chopped.

We had one wg cdr who bent the rules and let the guys have more than 2 stabs at each hurdle.

Once out of nav school the OCU, esp the F3, demanded a more or less straight line improvement on the grounds that guys who were slow learners would be cannon fodder when the S hit the F.

The aim of the game was to ensure the wasteage ooccurred at the cheapest part of the training pot.

[wannabewingman]

EF2020,

Check your PMS.



Wannabe Wingman

[AllTrimDoubt]

Tourist - If you don't like the system (and the general tone of your posts is quite disparaging) then either bu**er off out of it, or get some time in, find out what you are talking about and then change it from a position of responsibility and experience.

[Tourist]

Get some time in, hmm?
My isssue is that at the same time as we can't get enough people in through the door, we are raising the goal posts for no good reason. We are perfectly happy with the standard or people we currently have, so why change the system which brought us in. And don't tell me that todays modern a/c require it because its b@llocks. The playstation generation naturally have a head start with anything geeky already.
Another problem is that aviation experience and authority can often be mutually exclusive due to the nature of RN promotion.
Anyway, stick it up your @rse!:E

[Si Clik]

Tourist,

Please maintain decorum and not get personal.

FYI the reason a dual pass is required is not raising the standard! This has been the case for a substantial length of time and was driven by high training failure wastage rates. When you have any sort of shortage you DO NOT lower standards, it is counter intuitive and DOES NOT get the square pegs in square holes.

Just because a single pass in pilot was right in the past it DOES NOT make it right now.

I think EF2020 should consider his options and make the right choice for him. Other Services have different criteria for selection which suit their requirements and the RN is not about to change.

:hmm:

[baronmanfred]

Aircrew of the forces should be well bred chaps of superior intelligence to the norm; we shouldn't be discussing a chap who has FAILED the preliminay tests.

Do the infantrymen go around moaning how they were refused entry to the Hussars, Dragoons or Lancers? No, if one has failed basic tests then one shuts one's mouth forthwith.

Aren't Burger King recruiting at present?

[Tourist]

Si,

I say again, on my course and the ones around mine there was a very low failure rate indeed, and after consulting with some mates last night, an amazingly large percentage (100%) of us all failed Observer aptitude but we seem to get on alright. You say that it has been this way for a while, strangely enough we seem to have been short of new pilots for a while also. Coincidence?

[wannabewingman]

Some of the posters in this thread are being total t***ers!!!

Give this guy a break and give him some constructive advice, or shut up and get back in your box!
This guy has passed pilot aptitude and should be encouraged to try again. Not the immature negative sh*t i've seen posted.

Any one who says otherwise in the words of Tourist can "Stick it up your arse"!! :E


WW

[kippermate]

Surely, if there was a requirement to pass 1st time (any of the aptitude tests) then the facility to repeat the tests would be removed. On that count I'd say that EF2020 should be given every encouragement to reassess his/her options and, if still determined to become a Service pilot, should reapply - regardless of his knockback. One caveat that I would add is that only EF2020 (and the AIB) know if his/her failure at Observer aptitude is the only reason that they have been discouraged from reapplying. I am aware of a number of individuals that have passed all aptitude tests, to a good standard, but do not have what it takes to be competitive for a job as a Service pilot.

EF2020. If you don't reapply then you will never know.

Whatever happens, give it your best shot. If you don't, then you will never succeed in this environment.


kipper

:ok:

[Tourist]

Si Clik,
Your problem understanding the flying training difficulties of others may be caused by (if I guess your identity correctly) the fact that according to an old instructor of yours you were a flying god. Us mere mortals however do face dificulties at certain points in the pipeline. These may only be at the apptitude stage due to that fallibility of the testing proceedure.
I do not suggest we lower training standards in any way, but to limit the entry to training unnecessarily shoots ourselves in the foot. Perhaps it would be worth accepting a higher wastage % in order to get more people out the end of the sausage machine.
Especially at a time when when we are so strapped that baby observers are all being given pilot grading on the offchance that they pass it, and chopped observers get another go!:yuk:

[Matrix Marauder]

Tourist,
You are not correct in your information, the RN is not short of pilots, it has an abundance (currently in holdover, like the Air Force) of very average pilots; it needs above average pilots for fast jet training and observers. Observers are not all getting pilot grading, and ‘chopped’ observers are not routinely getting second chances. Higher wastage rates are expensive and can not be justified the aim should be to reduce wastage rates to make the system more efficient.

[bandit]

MM,

RN is not short at the moment but I can guarantee that quite a few people above my (and I'll bet, your pay-scale) are currently beset by the problem of improving RN aircrew recruitment figures...

[Si Clik]

MM et al,

Sympathise and agree with your thrust on holds but be careful not to jump to conclusions.

The reasoning behind a P/O pass are born from a series of studies into performance of recruits and trainees through flying training. We must remember that this sort of thing never sits still and more work is required to tie FAT results to what we want as an input and output of training.

Needless to say I am hiding behind no false walls as most know where I work.

Additionally I am unable to quote further on EF2020 position due to my location. He can PM me if he likes.

:hmm:

[Tourist]

What have I said that gives you the impression that I have anything against observers? Big fan of the actually. Wouldnt want to do it mind you.

[airborne_artist]

Of course the simple solution is to call all the tests for pilot "the Pilot tests" and the tests for obs "the Observer tests".

[teeteringhead]

we are raising the goal posts for no good reason ... errr ... wouldn't that make things easier;)

[R3Hard]

Sr Tourist 'when we are now so desperate that even the observers now get a go at pilot grading'! If i have misunderstood your sentiments then please accept my apologies but your posts do give the impression that because you are a pilot you are some kind of superior naval aviator.

I have to admit that as a baby pilot on 845 i was guilty of similar attitudes until i struck up a conversation with the IRI during my renewal. He was a former sea vixen observer and was not the least bit impressed by my slagging off and recommended that i go and fly the Lynx - which i duly did via the wasp. I can assure you that i flew with some great crewmen in both the Wx5 and the wasp but when it came to pure naval aviation warfighting a good obs is a real (standby for staff phrase) 'force multiplier'.
Go and fly the Lynx - it will do you the world of good - and you wont have to do the maps and charts!!

I don't know the intimate workings of the squadrons these days as i left some years ago at the end of my MCC, apparantly they even have girls at sea! However what is clear to me is that we are not attracting the numbers that we once did and therefore the sifting process is not as easy. Furthermore the equipment, procedures and roles of the aircraft are more complex - even the Mk4 has got gizzmos (but still not as fun as firing rockets in a Wx 5!!) and with more complex kit inevitable maybe the whole aptitude thing should just be pass or fail. This discussion would then not be relevant, there have always been those that failed the navy tests only to become a red arrow in the crabs. On 829 we had crewman who had started life as a stoker and next time i saw him was working for an airline, having been a sea harrier pilot in the interim!

Anyway i am a boring old sod so better go and change my colostomy bag, drink some CSB and ask the MEO if there's enough steam to set sail.

:8

[EF2020]

"By all means EF should reapply but if his interest in naval aviation is only as a pilot he will more than likely become one of those types that just bad mouths obs in the bar and wonders how much fuel they cost. If he really wants to be a naval aviator he should be determined to pass both and just get on with it."....

I can assure you that I am not a pretentious wannabe pilot who would do as you stated....I love civilian fying, and will hopefully love military too, but I am determined to pass for Observer, as in a lot of respects, I know how challenging an Observer's work can be, and if I was to be offered Observer- but not Pilot- of course I would take it up........ :ok:

ef2020