Flybe's Fleet Replacement Collapsed Again

[Flying Fiona]

Flybe are reporting that the RJ100 has been cancelled.

The corrosion is more extensive than first thought and the company has decided not to use them as a replacement to their ageing 146 fleet.

Boeing and Airbus have failed to come up with a deal for fifteen 318/319 aircraft and the company are actively looking at the Embraer 195. A decision will be made within 3 months.

[Smokie]

And another 3 months, and another 3 months, and another 3 months................ The futures gloomy, the futures Q400 shaped...........:(

[Nil further]

Flying Fiona

You say that Boeing and Airbus failed to come up with a deal ! how bizarre given that they are cutting each others throats selling to any Loco .

I suspect the truth is that you guys are all being strung along by your management to try and retain pilots , or , flybe couldnt finance the jets .

Its a different game ordering the last batch of Q400 , Bombardier really needed that deal , big time . I am sure they made it happen . Finance for 15 B737 at a list price of around $40 mill' is a whole different level . Given the Walker family Trust's often stated intent to exit the business at the earliest suitable opportunity and the fact thay are the only thing that gives the business any financial credibility ......... would you lend the money ?

The Embraer guys really need a nice order like that in Europe and there are some cushy deals available from the Brazilian governments finance bank , looks like you guys have a South American future . Nice little aeroplane though.

NF

[notac]

It begs the question why did they buy / lease these aircraft in the first place? Turkish Airlines publicly grounded these exact aircraft in May 2004 for alleged fuel tank contamination. Fly be have now wasted tens of thousands of pounds training crews & engineers not to mention the problems they must be facing on overbookings if they can't find a 112 seat aircraft to replace the 97 seater 200 series currently at Southampton. Although I would imagine there must be some spare RJ's sitting in the desert or Exeter?

[CaptAirProx]

notac,

I think that flybe hadn't actually leased the RJ's, but had a signed deal with BAe to lease them once tarted up. Having visited the hangers at flybe I was told that the a/c still belong to BAe or their leasing agent and not flybe. Flybe however, have made a nice little earner out of the engineering work contracted to them from BAe. So although a wasted expense training the pilots, they made some out of the hanger work!

[Oshkosh George]

That's REALLY strange,considering G-JEBV has been photographed painted up in Flybe's colours. Why would they paint an aircraft before it was fit? Resprays are definately not cheap,and you'd hardly do that to a car you were thinking about buying,before you kicked the tyres!

Unless of course,BAe sprayed it! I read that they had painted G-BUHC IN ANTICIPATION of Air Dolomiti's lease,so who knows?

[Avman]

Hey CaptainAirProx, it's hangars wot aeroplanes get put in, not hangers. Them hanger things are wot we 'ang our coats on!

[CaptAirProx]

Avman, oh yeah, pooh. Well my spelling is crap at the best of times and decidedly worse on a computer thingy watchama call it.

Ta!

[jabird]

Would be much more interesting if they gave the Embraers a go. That way, they could keep their niche in the 70-120 seat market, and stay away from the 737/A319/20 dogfight.

Would complement the Q400s nicely, as they'd reach parts of Europe the Q400s can't reach.

[MarkD]

Unless they are going to keep Astreaus in clover while Bombardier get the C-Series moving? Unlikely though - after the RJX fiasco I would expect Flybe to steer clear of launches!

[Snigs]

MarkD,

Waiting for the C-series would be my bet, being a launch customer may be a bind, but the price that Bombardier may sell the initial tranche of jets may just prove irresistable!!

[MOR]

I think Nil Further is closest to the truth. To order a bunch of jets, you have to prove financial fitness to the manufacturer, and that normally involves having tens of millions in the bank. I believe the figure for the RJX order was 8 million, and that was a few years ago now.

Of course if you are leasing it is a slightly different picture, but you still need cash reserves. Flybe may be in better shape than years gone by, but they don't have significant cash reserves -yet.

I hope they stick with the 146's until a decent replacement is found, and not order any more of those god-awful Q400's. As mentioned earlier, Bombardier were desperate to sell some of the Q400's and I imagine there were very deep discounts.

As far as the RJ's are concerned, any heavy maintenance will be BAe's call, not flybe's. They had similar issues with the Thai 146-300's, as the Thais had not bothered to do the proper biobore treatments that prevent this sort of corrosion. I also find it hard to believe they would paint them before ripping them to bits - makes no sense at all.

[JobsaGoodun]

I too cannot understand painting the aircraft prior to its introduction but maybe BAe paid for this as part of the lease agreement??? I guess they weren't expecting to find the level of corrosion that they have, after all these are relatively young airframes.

Interestingly, it does not seem to be Flybe's intention to replace the 146's with either 737's or A319's. It now looks like 737/319 aircraft will also be required in addition to whatever order will replace the 146's. Maybe Flybe will have a 3 type fleet??? There appears to be a very clear need for a jet with capacity in the region of 120 seats as well as the Q400 and Boeings/Airbuses.

Personally I think the C-Series is too far off, however I'm sure very attractive terms could be aquired. Embraer only have 15 firm orders from Swiss for the EMB195. With Lufthansa's aquisition of Swiss and their recent additions of further 146's to Eurowings and Air Dolomiti's fleets it would appear that Swiss's Embraer order may now be in questionable. How likely is it that Lufthansa will get Swiss to retain its RJ100's? If this is the case then I'm sure equally impressive terms could be sourced from Embraer if they were left with no place for Swiss' 15 firm orders.

It promises to be interesting times ahead over the next few months until we hear what might happen!

[MarkD]

That's what I don't get - if LH are sourcing presumably airworthy aircraft from BAe, why didn't flybe get some?

A deal could have been brokered by BAe to satisfy both sides, relieving LX of the Embraers and making LH group BAe's biggest 146 family user. All speculation though!

Oh and MOR - what's your problem with the Q's? Early tech problems aside they seem to be big money makers as far as I understood?

[JobsaGoodun]

Mark D,

I think Flybe were very specific in their needs and wanted solely RJ100's. You are correct that their are plenty 146-300's kicking around, some still from BUZZ.

The main difference is payload out of SOU. I think this is why Flybe need the RJ's instead.

[MarkD]

thanks for the clarification Jobsa

[MOR]

MarkD

It may make money, but that doesn't make it a good aircraft.

Having positioned on the Q400 more times than I care to remember, I found it vibey, noisy, cramped and generally unpleasant. Not to mention the number of times I was delayed or had travel cancelled due to technical problems. I have also lost count of the number of times I got called off standby to rescue the pax from a dead Q400, in the trusty 146.

Often, on those positioning flights, I was engaged in conversation by pax (as I was wearing a uniform). Most of them considered it to be an old aircraft, and tolerated rather than enjoyed it. Some wouldn't believe me when I pointed out how old the aircraft actually were. Many though the 146 parked next door was the newer aircraft.

Flybe bought into the Q400 program at a time when they simply couldn't engage any other manufacturer in meaningful talks, as a result of their dire financial state at the time. Bombardier were desperate for a customer after a disasterous launch with SAS, where the aircraft was shown to be clearly not ready for the market. How many aircraft have required "remanufacturing" after a year's service?

In many ways, the two companies represented to each other the only hopes they had of continuing (flybe as an airline, and the Q400 as a program). If flybe hadn't ordered it, it would have been cancelled.

Flybe have since "talked it up" as being a wonderful aircraft - they had to. Not only to attract customers, but to justify their decision to buy it. You can tell by the way the Q400 boys and girls have all been lobotomised with the same "best thing since sliced bread" mantra.

I wouldn't travel in the thing unless it was the only option available. I suspect that if flybe were to honestly canvass the opinions of their customers, they would find that most would prefer a jet (even a 146). But of course the "customer satisfaction surveys" were only ever going to have one outcome.

It's got a nice flight deck, is no doubt nice to fly, but from a passenger perspective... no thanks.

Now watch all the Q400 drivers wade in with a staunch defense of their baby... :rolleyes:

[er82]

MOR
Having heard you slate the 400 on many occasions, it's strange that after flying it for 2years I've heard little complaints about the noise inside, vibration(??), being cramped(???) or general unpleasantness. Yes, it's had it's moments of tech problems, however most of these are rectified quite quickly with a power-down.
I've positioned on the 146 many times, and find the noxious fumes rather more unpleasant that the noise of the props on short final when they're put to max.

Whatever the reasons for FlyBE initially going for the Q400, they've certainly found their niche and are keeping the company going. Which is probably why they've ordered 20 more.
With the just-announced cancellation of the RJ's, and a decsion not to go for the 737 or A319/20, it looks like you'll be stuck on the 146 for a few years more. That is until they come to the end of a 'serviceable' life, and while FlyBE are still waiting for the C-whatever to be built, you'll find that they'll end up chaging to a one-fleet company.
Enjoy the Dash!

[5711N0205W]

As a passenger give me the Q400 any time, have not had the pleasure of FlyBe but have flown in BA(CX?) RJ and Wideroe Q400.

The RJ has to be the most cramped, smelly thing I have flown in in years (and that includes a TAAG 732!). The Q400 for the sector length is quite fine.

[spagiola]

You are correct that their are plenty 146-300's kicking around, some still from BUZZ.

Actually, after last week's deal with LH for 11 146-300s, there aren't many 146-300s available at all. All the buzz are now spoken for. What's left on the market include three ex-EI stored in the desert (still on lease to EI; they decided to withdraw them from use long before their leases expired) and the ex-Ansett ones stored in Australia. That's pretty much it.

[JobsaGoodun]

Ok Spagiola, lets not split hairs

I was talking pre the LH deal when Flybe would have been negotiating on the RJ's, at that point they could have had quite a choice of 146-300's.

You are quite right though, there are now few 146-300's left. The old dog has been finding itself new homes of late! (I mean that in the nicest possible way!)

Cheers Jobs!

[MOR]

er82

Whatever the reasons for FlyBE initially going for the Q400, they've certainly found their niche and are keeping the company going. Which is probably why they've ordered 20 more.

Still doesn't make it a good aircraft, just makes it a cheap aircraft. What else could they buy now?

That is until they come to the end of a 'serviceable' life

Unlikely, as the 146 wasn't built to a price (as the Q400 definitely is). I would expect the 146 to outlast the Q400 with some ease.

you'll find that they'll end up chaging to a one-fleet company.

Doubt it, but if it were to happen, expect the 146 crews to be heading out the doors rather than fly the Q400. I certainly will.

[er82]

The 146 crews may well head out the door, but it won't be a new situation! Having lost 1/3 of the flight deck crew they've managed to get lots of low-hour guys/gals to hop into the company, parting with cash up-front.

For the routes that it does, it is a good aircraft. I'm not entirely sure why you have to slate it so much when you don't even fly the thing. It's kept the company going - you should be grateful for that otherwise you wouldn't have a job!

[Irish Steve]

OK, time for someone who travels as SLF to respond to this.

The 400 is not unpleasant.

I've flown on SD330's, 360's, F27's. F50's. Swearingen Metros, SAAB 340's ATP's ATR42's, Dash7's as well as the various flavours of Dash 8's. I can also add to that jets from a 737-200 up to 747-400. with most of the varieties in between, including L1011 & DC10s.

I've also got enough pilot experience to know what's going on, and when I'm comfortable with the way the aircraft is doing things, and equally to know when I'm not.

The 400 is a lot quieter than some of the other Turboprops I've been on, and in the FlyBE configuration, which I have travelled on, it's comfortable enough, I've been on worse long haul flights with less space than the 400's, so let's be realistic here. It's a short sector turboprop which is being used on skinny routes, and for that, it's pretty good, and seems to have made a difference to FlyBE, which I for one am happy to see happening.

It's pressurised, which means it can go over the top of the weather, unlike some of it's predecessors, and from the block times I've seen, it's fast enough.

I've also handled it as a rampie, and it's a lot nicer to deal with than some of the other aircraft of similar size.

So, what's the problem? I've not seen it, and so far, while I'm aware that the early days of the 400 were not exactly problem free, that's true of most types. From what I'm seeing now, the initial snags have been ironed out, and it's performing as well as any other turboprop type.

OK, so some people don't like the power changes on final. That's relatively easy to deal with by telling people on the PA that there will be a change in the engine noise shortly which is to assist with the aircraft performance. Not a lie, and if people know it's going to happen, there's no issue. It's not unique to the 400, so why are some making such an issue of it?

OK, so there's a problem now for FlyBE with the replacement of the 146, and I've handled a good few of them in my time too. There's not an easy off the shelf replacement for the 146, there are aspects of it's performance that are not easy to find in the newer aircraft, so what's an operator supposed to do? Get something else that won't replace the 146 in all locations, and then change the route structure to suit the new type, having spent time and money developing a route structure? That doesn't sound too clever to me, if something is working, it makes a lot of sense to leave it that way. OK, the 146 is old. So? Given the way it's built, it's probably still going to last longer at less maintenance cost than some of the competitive aircraft. A long time ago, an engineer friend of mine commented that where corrosion was concerned, the British aircraft were streets ahead of some of the equivalent American aircraft. ( And before someone jumps on me from a great height, he was specifically talking about the BAC 1-11 and the Boeing 737-200)

So, where are we going? I suppose I'm looking at some awfully sour grapes that seem to be rooted in some very bitter feelings about the fleet replacement policy of FLyBE, and I'm sitting here thinking to myself that it's time some of the people that are involved in keeping the FLyBE fleet in the air said something. If we all stop using them, then some of the people whinging in this thread will really have something to whinge about. If however, FlyBE have at last managed to get a few things going right for them, then this SLF at least is very happy to see that continue.

And, just to make sure that no on accuses me of being FlyBE management, or biased, (a) I don't work for Flybe, and (b) in recent days, I've sent 2 somwhat less complimentary E-mails to customer service about other aspects of the organisation that do need some attention, so I'm not wearing rose tinted specs.

[CaptAirProx]

What a well rounded last post!

I'm afraid some peolpe look at their aircraft they fly as some form of extension to their body! The Q400 has its faults and some very good things about it. I guess it ain't as much a pilots aeroplane as the 146. BUT it is doing what the bean counters wanted so its ok in my book. Yes I fly it so I'm biased. But I fly aeroplanes cos I enjoy it. I could'nt care a flying fa**y what it is I fly as long as it fun......the Q400 is very much that. I see it as the 757 of the turboprop world, long and thin with long legs and two big pairs......!

If people were that fed up with it, then why do we still fill the seats? Yes a lot of people get on and think, blimey whats this thing? They generally get off and say, that was a really nice flight. And they love the cabin as its small enough to feel like a familiar sociable environment.

Granted, some pilots just don't have a feel for an aircraft and fly it like a robot. If you are sympathetic with it, you can get smooth results in the cabin for the pax. Just takes a little thought from up front.

Above all, it makes money which keeps me employed, for which I am truly grateful. Shame others could'nt admit it.

Oh and MOR if and when you do fly the thing, just remember, you will be on a jet salary flying a turboprop...............oh no! How lucky you are sir!

[Fried_Chicken]

Drifting slightly off topic, tonights BEE784 EGHI-EGPH made an emergency (precautionary?) landing at Birmingham due to excessive vibrations in the No2 engine (I believe it was a 146). Not sure if the pax were switched to other flights at Birmingham.

Fried Chicken

[flybe.com]

One shouldn't rise to MOR's opinions of the 400. His tired old comment of "....I've had conversations with pax who think it's an old aircraft and the 146 parked next door is newer... blah blah blah ...tech problems... blah blah blah" have appeared many times before, and it tends to be followed by posts from passengers who have flown on the 400 and found it a pleasant experience. His mind is made up, so let him carry on.

CaptAirProx - ...some pilots just don't have a feel for an aircraft and fly it like a robot. If you are sympathetic with it, you can get smooth results in the cabin for the pax. Just takes a little thought from up front.
A wise and accurate comment indeed sir. A little thought from those up the front is exactly what it takes, be a little less 'agricultural' is what I say.

I think one thing that should be sorted out is the 'apparent' power change on final. For the benefit of the pax who commented above, this unnecessary (in my opinion) increase in noise (caused by the props increasing to their 'take off' rpm setting) is indeed for peformance reasons, it's nothing to do with the landing, but it's just in case the aircraft has to go around. SAS have a software modification to the Go Around button on the power levers which brings the props up to max when pressed, and this means much quieter landings at an 850 rpm setting.

On the subject of RJ availability, I believe BA want to get rid of their entire fleet. You can bet they're in top notch condition, but I guess they must be too expensive for us.

[MOR]

See what I mean about all the Q400 crews with the "best thing since sliced bread" lobotomy... :p

If people were that fed up with it, then why do we still fill the seats?

Probably because they don't have a choice, or because they prefer a low price to comfort.

And they love the cabin as its small enough to feel like a familiar sociable environment.

What a load of twaddle! They are more likely to find it claustrophobic. You're right about one thing, though, it certainly is small...

If you are sympathetic with it, you can get smooth results in the cabin for the pax. Just takes a little thought from up front.

Perhaps you guys need to think a little harder then, because none of you seem to be able to land it gently...

One shouldn't rise to MOR's opinions of the 400.

I really don't care whether you do or don't, I'm just expressing an opinion, which is at least as valid as yours - although I realise that you think your opinions are the last word, being as you are the self-appointed company spokesman on all matters flybe. Bring back Raw Data, at least he had a backbone...

[er82]

Oooooooohhhhh BITCHY!

And I thought it was just the girls!

Flybe.com - as far as I know, we'll be getting the mod to land with props at 850rpm. Who knows when, but I heard it's on its way.

MOR -as far as landing the thing nicely - just remember that it's due to the undercarriage. We don't have a nice trailing-link like the 146 which means we actually have to put it down nicely to get a nice landing, unlike you lot who can slam it in, let the undercarriage do all the work, and then accept the compliments of a nice landing when it wasn't really down to your skill!!!;)

Unfortunately you seem to be one of the typical "my jet is better than your turboprop" lot. If the Q400 wasn't such a 'threat' to the future of the 146 in the company, maybe you wouldn't be so bitter about it! It's a great aircraft for the routes it operates; it's spacious in the cabin, nice and airy with a decent pitch ; it's performance is outstanding for a turboprop; it has a MUCH better set-up in the flight deck than the 146 -ok so we don't have as much room but our nice EFIS screens are way better than your old dials and our FMS will hold the aircraft while we sit and drink tea instead of constantly turning a heading bug.

I'm not really sure why you have to get so heated about an aircraft that is keeping the company afloat. If you're not flying it, why complain so much????? And as far as >>See what I mean about all the Q400 crews with the "best thing since sliced bread" lobotomy... << - well we only ever defend ourselves and our aircraft when pedantic old jet jockeys like yourself constantly put it down....

[Sharky12t]

Thought i'd add to this,

I'm a Dispatcher for Swissport at NCL and we have both types operating (146 to EXT and the Q400 to BHD and SOU).

The 146 is a bi*ch to turnaround in comparison to the dash -

No Airstairs means it's a pain in the ass getting ours on the aircraft quickly and correctly without the c/crew complaining that there's a 2cm gap and that they want them repositioned. These then have to be removed if there are WCHR pax to board from the cabin lift.

As for the cabin, I find the q400 light and airy and far less cramped than the 146, lets not forget the 146 is 6 abreast seating the only a/c in its category with more than 5. The cabin is dark and dingy and god forbid if you're sat under the wing with the laughable overhead baggage bins there, usefull for maybe an A4 folder to fit into. These are also the emergency exits so forget about the seat infront for your bag.

The Q400 does take getting used to but after a couple of turnarounds it's easy as p*ss.

The pax figures on the EXT service don't at the moment exceed the Q400 capacity so maybe FlyBE will redeploy the a/c to a more suitable sector and save us the headache.

Rant over,

Sharky

[Nakata77]

I can see bothe sides of the story, but lets not get distracted from the main reason this thread is here - the cancelation of the RJ100's and the consideration of the ERJ 170/195's.

Great opportunity for Flybe to leave the mainstream low-costs and fight thier corner and niche in the regional / low cost market.

Lets just hope they follow it through.

[MOR]

Unfortunately you seem to be one of the typical "my jet is better than your turboprop" lot.

Oh please try not to be so silly.

The best fun I had in aviation was flying the F27 ( a much better built aircraft than the Q400, as it happens).

I never, in any of my posts, use the term "better than". The 146 isn't "better than" the Q400, as it is a different class of aircraft. What it is, though, is more solidly built, quieter, and more reliable.

The Q400 isn't a "threat" to the 146, the next jet is. The company has a clear objective to operate an aircraft in the 150-seat class.

I don't know where you get the idea it is "spacious", it simply isn't, even "for a turboprop".

but our nice EFIS screens are way better than your old dials and our FMS will hold the aircraft while we sit and drink tea instead of constantly turning a heading bug.

LOL and you accuse me of playing the "my plane is better than your plane" card...

Of course you have no idea what you are on about, I just tell the GNS-X where I want to go, sit back and watch the map scroll down the EFIS. No heading bug manipulation required. I do all this in the relative quiet and spaciousness of the 146 flight deck. At least we have a bit of space for our coffee and crew meals.

I'm not really sure why you have to get so heated about an aircraft that is keeping the company afloat.

Ha ha, I'm not the heated one, I just give my opinion on the thing and you lot leap desperately to it's defence. I don't have to fly it so I don't care. I just think it's a dog.

The Bombardier order book tells the real story. Really popular aircraft, the Q400. Airlines are fighting each other to buy some... NOT.

Of course all the Q400 pilots desperate to defend their toy are all applying to fly jets... guess they must really love it to bits!

This is great fun... who's next... :}

[atyourcervix73]

I prefer my 757...rather than the "turboprop" Q400 version:8

[CaptAirProx]

MOR, people do have a choice . If they don't like it then go with another carrier from say Gatwick if we were to use SOU as an example. Or indeed BOH. Do you really think an airline should put two a/c on a rotation so that people can choose their mount! Hardly.

As to the cabin size, my point being that often on the longer trips to say Salzburg, Geneva, Bergamo, Berne, Verona etc. The cabin crew would always comment on how the pax thought there was a much more family spirit in the cabin as everything was closer to the aisle and they could talk to the cabin crew. When full on these trips it does bring people together and be more sociable as if its their own private chartered a/c.

I like the 146, think it was a great invention. Shame it never got the modernisation as promised.

As our late fleet manager once said " This is not a flying club but an airline"

So if you don't like the aircraft that you work along side or indeed fly in as pax or as crew, then take a walk elsewhere where they have a mount that you can be seen in. As much as you hate it, I feel the Dash has been an important factor in our turnaround. We may need to grow into something bigger but until then it keeps us going. That said I am sure the 146 makes money on many routes but we all can't operate down to Malaga etc.

Its interesting to note that the Chief Test Pilot of the CAA is coming on line shortly as a Captain on the Q400. He is very excited to see what its all about. And guess what, he has flown fast jets to L1011's/757/767 etc etc. He has no problem with flying a turboprop.

As to your appraisal of the landings. Yes they can be firm. And yes they are a bitch to master. Sometimes you have it in the bag to be rewarded with a shudder! I wasn't specifically refering to the landings. More the use of props, flaps, taxiing with disc, I could go on. You have to remember that although our Tech officer is trying his hardest, he doesn't have the experience of the Dash that some earlier pilots have on the fleet. So some of the advice we get now is duff as are the supposed new SOP's. Written with no understanding of the problems we've had from the beginning and experience of operating on the line.

I agree the Dash probably isn't built aswell as the 146. But then what new aircarft is? Do we care? We lease them. Just lease a load more. But by then we may be a totally different company not requiring them anyway.

I do find it odd that you publicly slate your employers equipment when clearly this could have an adverse affect on your livelyhood. Shame on you sir. At least try and be a little evenhanded with your comments.

Oh and MOR the reason why we come on here and defend our aircraft is because your opinions do little justice to our business. This is a public forum.

And you now admit that the 146 and Dash have different missions...............At last!

And no the company have now stated they are looking at 120 seat aircraft, have you not read the notice. OR are you too busy in the mirror!

[Avman]

If I may put in my pax point of view re flying in the 400 or 146: I have no problem flying in the 400 (or any turboprop) for an hour or so, same as the CRJ or ERJ commuter jets. Anything over that sort of sector length and I prefer something a little larger. I will (and do) modify travel plans so as to avoid flying long sectors on "commuter" type aircraft.

[MarkD]

MOR

did you dislike the -8-200/300 in flybe service or is it features of the Q400 that you find particularly annoying?

[er82]

>>Of course all the Q400 pilots desperate to defend their toy are all applying to fly jets... guess they must really love it to bits!<<

Now that really is a silly comment. It's called career progression. It's what you did to get onto the 146.

[haughtney1]

I really am getting a giggle out of this thread:p

MOR really has struck a rich vein of form here.......
Come on all you Q400 drivers..lighten up a bit would you? surely there are better things in life to be upset about?...have you seen the price of a pint lately?...mayby you havent tried to call BT customer service recently:rolleyes:
My point is this Q400, 146, 737..whatever..it sure as hell beats working for a living...just confirms how childish and churlish people can be over petty things...dear dear

[Whispermode]

The bottom line with all this is that the 146 costs 4 times more in maintenance than modern a/c such as the later 737s and 319/318s. For that reason alone it must be replaced sooner rather than later. What with? - no idea but the Co has often said that it needs a 110/120 seat a/c as it can't run the network efficiently with just a 78 seat one and a 150 seat one.

[MOR]

Not so much "nibble nibble" as CHOMP CHOMP"... :p

MOR, people do have a choice . If they don't like it then go with another carrier from say Gatwick if we were to use SOU as an example. Or indeed BOH. Do you really think an airline should put two a/c on a rotation so that people can choose their mount! Hardly.

You really don't get it, do you? Of COURSE nobody is going to do that. However, try putting a Q400 on the same routes as one served by, say, Easyjet, and see how long you last. Nobody will fly on the turboprop if they have the choice of a jet on the same route, for similar money. Why do you think it is that Mike and Ray don't really care what we do with the Q400?



When full on these trips it does bring people together and be more sociable as if its their own private chartered a/c.

Oh great, let's get some Jetstreams then, now there is an intimate cabin... you really are living in your own private little world, aren't you?

Quite frankly I think the company should hand out medals to the pax that have survived a Bergamo in the Q...

take a walk elsewhere where they have a mount that you can be seen in.

Oh, I don't mind being seen in it, I just hate having to fly in the thing... silly boy, this isn't about pride, it's about comfort.

I feel the Dash has been an important factor in our turnaround.

Yes, it has. Did I ever say it hadn't? Still an awful aircraft, though.

Chief Test Pilot of the CAA is coming on line shortly as a Captain on the Q400. He is very excited to see what its all about.

Well whoopie do... :rolleyes:

He has no problem with flying a turboprop.

Nor do I... as long as it isn't that god-awful Q400. Give me an F27, now there is an aircraft that isn't built out of tissue paper.

As to your appraisal of the landings. Yes they can be firm.

CAN be... lol

I agree the Dash probably isn't built aswell as the 146. But then what new aircarft is? Do we care?

Well, I do. So should you if you are heading down thunderstorm alley in an aircraft so lightly built it had to be "remanufactured" to stop the flight deck dropping off. Give me a nice strong 146 (or F27, or Shed, etc).

Not caring how strong your aircraft is gives a good indication of your inexperience... ;)

this could have an adverse affect on your livelyhood.

Ya think? Nah, the rampies love it so it must be OK... even the one with "pilot" experience, whatever that is.

At least try and be a little evenhanded with your comments.

IT'S - A - DOG! (how was that?)Oh and MOR the reason why we come on here and defend our aircraft is because your opinions do little justice to our business.

Have a little think about that, you may wish to re-word it, seeing as how I have made no adverse comment at all on the business, the company, or how much money the Dash makes...

And you now admit that the 146 and Dash have different missions...............At last!

Always have. Now please explain why we send the "pencil" off on epic voyages to places like Bergamo...

OR are you too busy in the mirror!

Oooh, nasty! Where's my handbag... :p

MarkD

did you dislike the -8-200/300 in flybe service or is it features of the Q400 that you find particularly annoying?

No, the original Dashes are fine aircraft. Strong, good performers, and so on. By contrast, the Q400 is under-engineered , released well before it was ready, and technically deficient. The noise cancellation system is a joke, the props vibrate if they are even slightly out of balance, the electrics are somewhat less than robust, etc. It was a good idea, but poorly executed, which is unusual for DHC. It is, in many ways, like the BAe ATP was.

er82

Now that really is a silly comment. It's called career progression. It's what you did to get onto the 146.

But you are being paid a "jet" salary to fly the 400... so what is your incentive?

NEXT... :}

[haughtney1]

I dont think an A/C presently exists in the same mould of the 146.

Has Embraer gained approval for steep approaches for the 170/190 family yet?
Me thinks the fleet planning bods at FlyBe will continue to have their work cut-out in finding a versatile enough replacement. After all, the Genesis of the 146 can be traced back almost 40 years....most modern designs are put together in a quarter of that time, on the basis of pure economics..and then shoehorned into a role..rather than say the 146 that was based on the concept of STOL/Quiet jet transport.

Just saw MOR's latest comments as I was typing this.....VERY funny:p The handbag comment..Im gonna save that one for later!

[MarkD]

haughtney

I hear there is such an a/c - the An-148 :D

[haughtney1]

If its anything like the last russian beasty I had a try with....eeeeeeeeeekkk.

But seriously....what are its specs?...and could you honestly consider it as a viable option...(snoobery and bragging rights are still high on the list for procurement people in any industry!) for a UK Airline?

I can already see the advertisement announcing the new a/c type

"free bottle of vodka with every ticket sold!"

Ok that was naughty..but you know what I mean:}

[er82]

MOR
How do you figure we're being paid a 'jet' salary?!?!?!

This is all quite amusing. I couldn't really give two hoots seeing as I'm going.

[MarkD]

http://www.aviationnews.com.au/News_Stories/Archived_Stories/0409784-AntonovAN148.htm

A 146 with two donks and a wing somewhat further forward :D

[Irish Steve]

MOR

even the one with "pilot" experience, whatever that is.

OK, I'll bite,:}. I detected more than a little cynicism in that comment, which I didn't appreciate too much. The only reason I'm not flying professionally is because the Gulf wars happened at times that messed up plans and cash flow big time, and a subsequent encounter with Big C has also made things a little more complicated.

We may have met, I used to work for SA at DUB, as a lead agent, until the management decided they didn't like the way I dealt with an air ambulance Seneca flight:(

Flight experience.

SE/ME CPL/IR, and ATPL exams completed when they were done the hard way, as writtens, not multi choice.

500 Logged hours, mostly ME Single Crew IFR around Europe. A lot more time that I can't log in a generic MD83 simulator, and about 250 Hrs in a "generic" A320 style simulator that I helped build and programme that is used by British Aerospace as a research tool for flight deck research, the most recent being secondary systems work. I've also built other sim systems that have been used for things like MCC training back when it was a new and different thing that had to be done in a hurry as a result of the Kegworth 737 crash.

"Real" Simulators, if that's not a contradiction in terms, Citations, Lears, BAC1-11, 737-200, 737-300, 747-200, 747-400, 757, 767, 777, L1011, DC10-30, A320, Concorde, all legally logged as training with instructors.

I'm slightly confused now, this thread is degenerating into a pretty nasty slanging match between various parties within FlyBE, which is slightly worrying.

I could make comments like the 400 is quieter, it's a lot quieter than some of the other TP's mentioned. It's no less "fragile" than things like the SAAB 2000, or the ATR 72, both of which have their moments.

I've handled F27's as a ramper, and while it might well be a nice aircraft to fly, it's a pig on the ground, especially on a dark cold wet slippery ramp trying to pass the nose wheel clamp back in to the flight deck!!!

I could say a lot more, but I won't, other than to agree with several others that the replacement for the 146 is not going to be easy to find, the newer types don't have the versatility and flexibility that the 146/RJ has, and for sure they won't have the build quality.

Anyway, in closing, whatever FlyBE does, I hope it works, I for one want to see them continue to grow in the way they have over the last 18 months.

Cheers

Steve

[AlphaCharlie]

Maybe I missed it, but where are we at now then? Are we now to wait another year for the next announcement regarding the jet replacement? Or are Flybe still considering all the other possibilities with an announcement to follow shortly?

It wasn't that long ago that Jim French said that he wanted a 3 fleet airline in order to meet expansion plans and demand - 40 Q400s, 10-15 110 seaters (i.e. RJ100s for the time being), and 3-4 150 seaters. So how exactly does looking at the Embraer 195s fit these needs? Its only a 110 seater isn't it? So does this mean ERJ195s instead of RJ100s and keep on leasing 737s from Astr. for the next few years?

It would be nice to see a definite answer sometime soon.

[flybe.com]

Personally, I think that although the Company continues to perform well, the next move will not be the final selection of a replacement for the 146, but the Walker board cashing in their asset via a sale/flotation.

[MOR]

Irish Steve me old china

Very impressive CV.

No I wasn't being cynical, it is just that you either are an airline pilot, or you aren't. Many who use the term that you did are, in fact, just wannabes who think that because they have delivered a loadsheet to a flight deck a few times, they know how things work. They don't, of course.

BTW I wouldn't use the Gulf War as an excuse for not becoming a professional pilot, many of us have had to push through in some pretty dire circumstances to get where we are. I was caught by the Gulf War too, but frankly I made my own good fortune by exploiting every possible (honourable) opportunity to advance my career. It's up to you to make it happen, don't blame the Gulf War.

Health is another issue of course.

As for the rest, flybe have very limited options regarding their next aircraft. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. My bet is that nothing will happen until they have some serious tens of millions in the bank to placate the nerves of the various manufacturers. Not holding my breath though.

[Irish Steve]

MOR,

Many who use the term that you did are, in fact, just wannabes who think that because they have delivered a loadsheet to a flight deck a few times, they know how things work. They don't, of course.

OK, understood, and I'm not about to argue there, very true and very valid, and it extends right through the handling side of the industry, as I found out the hard way:(

In fact, any knowledge of aviation would be an improvement for the vast majority of ramp handlers and their managers:E , I've seen rampers blow up Dash 8's electronics because they didn't even know why they were supposed to use a dedicated GPU for the aircraft, and the management at DUB were as bad, they didn't understand it either, so to them, while it wasn't funny, it was no big deal. I just hope that FLyBE managed to educate them and extract the appropriate financial penalties!!

It wasn't just Gulf that screwed the plans, I was self employed at the time, and as well as Gulf war screwing airline recruitment, ( and unfortunately, Ireland is a very small aviation community, and I'd already not long prior moved the family once, (from UK to Ireland) and to do so again so soon would have screwed up their education big time), there were other work related hassles that made it impossible at the time to do what I really wanted.

Life gets like that sometimes, hard descisions have to be made, and it was the problems of not being able to get into "real" flying that got me into the simulation world instead, and it's been "interesting", for all sorts of reasons.

Age was a factor as well, I'm sure you've read the threads here recently, and by the time things got back to sanity airline and cash flow wise, I was the wrong side of 40, which is an obstacle that is not easily overcome, regardless of any legislation.

Back to the thread.

Agree with you about the choices, they're not going to be easy, and probably now not quick. whichever route they take, it's going to require large sums of money, and they don't happen in a hurry any more, though I am encouraged by the results that are happening now, it's a far cry from a lonely SD360 operating from DUB to EXT, while I personally actually liked the 360, I did a lot of jump seat hours on them when EI operated them from BRS, I can well understand the lack of passenger appeal.

In that respect, and going back to the original theme, from a SLF aspect, when comparing like with like, which is always an issue, the 400 IS a good aircraft, it's reasonably comfortable, quiet, and better than some, and it carries enough people to make it worth while, and seems to be economic to operate, which is unfortunately a very important factor these days. I'd certainly choose a 400 over an EM145 any day, the cabin and locker space on the 145 is so cramped, it's not funny. OK, the 145 is a jet, but that's not the be all and end all of air travel on short routes.

If FlyBE can operate enough of the 400's on the "skinny" routes that people like Ryanair, Easyjet etc can't or won't operate, and can do it profitably, then that's as valid a business plan as any. I did a lot of work a few years ago on a new start up that was going to operate GWY-LTN with ATR's, and if they'd got their AOC when they needed it, life would have been very different. It wasn't going to be making the money that some of the LoCo operators are making, but as a niche operation, it would have worked, as Aer Arran have subsequently proved. Such is life.

[prob30]

Listen to yourselves! Small willies at dawn it sounds like (sorry er82, good luck on the other side - it's Grrrrreat!! You even get TRAINING!). We know flybe can't run a tap, but they keep on making money and keep you lot in work so whats the problem? Go and work for a proper airline with a proper fleet and a proper training regime and I reckon you will all be too knackered to bang on relentlessly contradicting yoursleves about who has the 'biggest' plane.

If only the fleet was 40 F27's and and a sopwith Camel - then we could make some money! Loco my R's - even the fares are not cheap!

[Irish Steve]

Loco my R's - even the fares are not cheap!

I needed to get my daughter from DUB to EXT last week at short notice due to a family illness. By short notice, I mean we heard about the problem at 1800, and needed to get her there by 1200 the following day.

Looked at Ryanair and Aer Lingus to Bristol, Ryanair to Bournemouth, and several other option, like Plymouth with Air Wales, and there were several other options further out from EXT.

OK, eventual destination was Exeter, but the nice surprise was that FlyBE was the cheapest we could get unless we wanted her to have to do some serious driving, which made it even better.


By cheaper, I mean that it would have cost about an additional €100 to use Ryanair to BRS, and then we'd have been into a round trip of 180 miles to get to EXT.

FlyBE are competitive. That's good enough for me!

They were competitive for other dates that we've used them for as well, relatively recently, so at the end of the day, they got the business, for the very simple reason that they were competitive.

No, they don't offer 99c flights, but the overall package works. Thats all that I as a reasonably aware SLF can ask for.

And before someone jumps down my neck and says that it was cheap to get the seats filled, both flights my daughter was on were good load factors, they were certainly not struggling numbers wise, so it wasn't a case of desperation for backsides on seats. Even in the depths of February, mid week, when we travelled over, the load factors were reasonable, and that's with the EXT flight now only serving EXT and not going on to Jersey and Guernsey like it used to, and there's now 3 rotations a day to SOU, so something must be right, that's more SOU than any other operator managed to do.

OK, I also know from following threads here over the years that FlyBE has had more than it's share of problems. Be thankful that youy don't have some of the issues that the FR people are on about here, I've seen some of them close hand having worked in DUB. I've also friends who were with FlyBE flying, and they seemed happy enough with the way things were, or, to be more specific, they were in no hurry to move to other things, and at the time, other things were most definitely available. QED

[haughtney1]

God...you watch a bit of breakfast telly...(sky news)..and you come back to find 8 more posts!

Irish Steve..Glad to know your a knowledgable guy..as MOR said you get so many armchair experts on here...who quite frankly dont know their arse from grass.

MOR....er 82..flybe..or anyone else actually think the powers that be in Exeter will actually make a decision this side of Halleys Comet returning?

[CaptAirProx]

MOR, we do operate the Dash head to head with Easyjet/Baby etc from time to time. It works. Big deal.

As to the thing being made out of paper or whatever you called it. Yeah it is. Big deal. All new aircraft are like this now. The Airbus has always been said to have less build to it than a Boeing. And I know engineers that convert Boeings to freighters say that the newer Boeings say the 757 onwards aren't built like they used to be! The Embraer has a reputation too I believe. So as much as I agree with you that its not a nice thing to put up with, its a fact of life now. There are few aircraft I fly in now that I can honestly say I feel truly safe in. The 146 is one that I can as its from that era when they were made to last. I see your concerns but the Dash is like any other new commercial aircraft. Built on the cheap, with the aid of computer predictions on what can be got away with.

Hey ho. Life moves on............and the saga continues, now where's that handbag??!!

[er82]

Prob30 - you must be one of two people if you've already gone to the other side........

haughtney1 - chances of FlyBE getting a replacement this side of the world ending - zilch. They keep on trying to keep crews sweet with the 'we'll be getting Airbus or Boeing and will announce within three months'. It's been promised as long as I've been in the company and still no sign of a jet that doesn't gas it's passengers!

[Cattle Class]

The "Big Cheese" is inbound to FlyBe as GM Turboprops from BACX - glad to see him go - best of luck (you'll need it!).
:yuk:

[flybe.com]

Cattle Class - is that for real? Why exactly will we need the luck?

[Smokie]

J.H.C! That's all we need.
We've just gotten rid of one Misfit, we don't need another.:(

I'm sure he'll be welcomed with open arms by his future like minded colleagues and Onanists!:yuk:

[er82]

Smokie - who was the misfit??? I can think of one that we definitely need to get rid of!!

[Lite]

flybe have really made their money from being a regional airline, and being a regional airline that has taken on the best attributes of being a no-frills airline. I would like to point out that most pax when booking their flight will not look to the type of aircraft, but instead the fare.

With the excellent operating costs of the Q400, these savings are passed on to passengers & help to keep flybe's costs down. The 146 on the other hand, is neither a comfortable aircraft to fly in (3x3 is a pretty tight squeeze & I'm fairly slim!) nor is it as economical as it was in its heyday. I don't understand flybe's lease of the ex-THY Avro RJ100s after all of the problems that they had with that type, but not go for modern jets.

The Embraer EMB-170/190 family is currently not allowed to fly into LCY, although one of the points made when swiss ordered the jets was that they must be allowed to fly into LCY. No doubt Embraer would work on this with any operator who ordered these jets & wanted to use them into LCY. I believe it was the ERJ-170 (70-seat) & ERJ-195 (110-seat) aircraft that were to be LCY-approved. Having flown on United's 170s they are very modern & comfortable aircraft, and management, pax & crews alike seem to like the aircraft.

I'm sure flybe know what they're doing, but being a major player in the regional airline industry is different from flying the 733s. I know flybe seem determined to operate the mainstream flights, but perhaps keeping to its current bread & butter, but with different a/c than the 146 would be a good start!

[TCAS FAN]

Shame about the RJ100's, just the aeroplane for SOU. After a bad 2003 with high summer temperatures causing a number of the146's to route via BOH when going south to Murcia/Alicante, due to the restricted runway at SOU, Flybe may be praying for a cool summer this year!

Looking at the take-off performance of the ERJ 195, this might be a problem at SOU, unless Embraer can work their magic and come up with an intermediate flap setting, as they did to make the ERJ 145 work out of SOU.

The other problem at SOU, if the 146's go, is where are the ERJ 195/737/AB318/9s going to park? Due to a mega cock up by a previous management regime a new multi-story car park was built next to the apron, against qualified advice. Car parking revenue obviously of more concern to the management. Nett result is that only aircraft with tail fin heights around 9 metres can park on most stands (ie 6-12). With Air Berlin a frequent visitor and Air Europa/Iberworld B737s & A320 taking up the parking stands that can take them during the summer, where is Flybe going to park their 146 replacements?

[puddle-jumper2]

Shame about the RJ's but to be honest I'm glad as I was getting worried about having to stay on the 146/RJ for another 5 years and now they have to look at replacing it.

I have enjoyed the many years spent on the 146 but I have to admit it is getting a bit long in the tooth. It's a lovely A/C to fly though and I am sure I'll look back in a few years time and think 'I really miss the old girl' !

As for the Dash 400 - well I haven't flown it but I'm sure it does the job it was designed for well. I'm not sure there's any truth in this stuff about it 'saving the company' though, my humble opinion is that it was born at the right moment - just before the change to low cost and the boom.
An A/C is just an A/C.
It's no good blaming an A/C for this and that and praising it for saving the day etc. - it all depends on how that A/C is used. The CRJ was not a 'BAD A/C' it was just asked to do a job it wasn't designed to do - and when it all went wrong it got the blame - what a load of crap. (I wasn't on the CRJ either by the way)

This 146 V's Dash 400 is unfortunate as we are all batting for the same team but I can't help thinking that it has all come about because of the difference in salary increases over the last couple of years between the Dash and 146 pilots (146 pilots 5% and Dash around 30%). If we had all stuck together and looked after each other the hand bags would have stayed put but unfortunately one group decided they deserved a huge increase and stuck two fingers up to the other group by voting yes to the unfair wage proposal, - the result -- More people on the 146 voting with their feet (as well as the usual amount from the Dash) and I'll feeling between the fleets.
Hopefully this is now water under the bridge.

As for the 146 replacement - well the Embraer 195 seems to fit our needs well. I don't think the Management of FlyBe are interested in getting 737's/Airbus's for the simple reason that it puts them in direct competition with the larger Low-Cost in both routes and pilot wage etc, so a 110 seater that know one else fly's is perfect.

[MarkD]

EMBs (or Bombardiers) are probably attractive to flybe from the export support Brazil and Canada give respectively.

[brabazon]

p-j2

I don't think the Management of FlyBe are interested in getting 737's/Airbus's for the simple reason that it puts them in direct competition with the larger Low-Cost

So what are they doing messing around with damp leasing aircraft to compete with 3 other LCCs at BHX!!!

[Flying Fiona]

We will all know in 6 weeks time what the company has decided to do.

As for the 737 lease, I don't think we should look into that to much as to what the outcome will be.

Personally I think the 319 will edge it. My spy's are telling me it is the bus and believe me, I'm in the know.

One thing is for certain. The ops director wants another vote on the pay rise. It was voted out by 51% to 49%. That man has lost the plot!

If you don't like the proposed increase just do what everyone else does. IT IS THAT SIMPLE!!!

Come on guys and gals, your supposed to have brains flying aircraft. GET YOUR HEADS OUT THE SAND!!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!

YOU ARE YOUR OWN WORST ENEMY

[puddle-jumper2]

brabazon,

You answered that one yourself ---- Messing Around !

Trust me, I'd love to see the 146 replaced with 319's or 737's - but I'll believe it when I see it.

Fiona,

Coming from our ops director that doesn't surprise me, the only thing is I can't believe he hasn't thought this one through. That's a large percentage that would be unhappy with 5% - we can't afford to loose any more pilots.

As for the 49% who voted Yes - well you can't blame them. The Balpa CC personally recommended this offer and put an argument forward for doing so ???:ugh:

[Flying Fiona]

I wasn't insinuating that you leave the company, I was simply saying do what everyone else does.

EVERY TIME THE COMPANY TAKES YOUR LEAVE AWAY FROM YOU AND STAFF TRAVEL DON'T GIVE YOU YOUR ANNUAL FREE TICKETS AND WHEN THEY DON'T GIVE YOU A PROPER WAGE INCREASE AND WHEN THEY DON'T FEED YOU PROPERLY AND WHEN THEY IGNORE THE SENIORITY LIST.............SHOULD I GO ON??


TAKE A WEEK OFF SICK!! IT IS THAT SIMPLE

[CaptAirProx]

With regard to the pay offer a few years ago and the rather biased percentage rise between Turboprop and Jet. Well I think most Dash drivers accepted the offer as at the time we were being asked to fly an aircraft with 28 seats more than the "other" jet that we had (CRJ) and were also starting to fly into Europe. It seemed a little old hat to say a turbo guy got less cos they flew slower, smaller, lighter blah blah blah. So I don't think it was two fingers up at the 146 guys but a case of hang on guys, why are you (CRJ) being paid more than us for generally, a very similar responsibility. It is unfortunate that the CRJ was put in the same category as the 146. Maybe we should have done it all on amount of seats, that would have been fairer.