Gulf Air 151

[Baywatcher]

Apparently GF 151 had a runway change in BKK from 21R to 21L on April 6th and "Raouffed" the take off run. Apparently it took out a tree at the end of the runway and the loud bump was reported to cabin crew by pax. However the A340 continued to BAH with vibrations coming from No 2 engine (which has ingested part of the tree, the rest being stuffed into the u/c bay on retraction.

On gear extension into BAH a hydraulic system was lost and to cap it all a precautionary evacuation was carried out.

A big hush up?

[dareya]

Sources in Bahrain confirm. Illegal importation of plant material had taken place and was located in the u/c. Cover-up.........probably. Surprising..........NO. Continuing on for eight hours.........risky. The MIRACLE of Gulf Air continues.

[Avman]

So, in the interest of fair play, after having lambasted BA for their 3 engine run across the atlantic, we should now give GF hell about this one. I'll kick off:

Bloody unprofessional show! Was this a "saving face" scenario agian?

[Safety Guy]

My information doesn't show the takeoff distances available, but there's only 200 meters difference in total length between 21R and 21L. Is that enough to put them in a position of hitting a tree with a normal four engine takeoff? Seems there's more at play here than a simple runway change, IMHO.

[chrislamb]

A couple of decades in the region have left me jaded to the extent that I would suggest that the tree was placed in such a position to discredit Gulf Air and that Capt. Sheikh Thingmy Wahtsit was in no way to blame for the incident.

[Abbeville]

During my long tenure there I was repeatedly reassured by my subordinate local crew members that it was not in their nature to make mistakes.

That settles that then...........NEXT!

[Maxrev]

Is that enough to put them in a position of hitting a tree with a normal four engine takeoff?

Sticky BKK weather, 4 engines provided by a hair dressing salon, I wouldn't take any chances in an A340....

[Khaosai]

Hi, the possible gotcha when rushed is crossing from 21R to 21L and not turning left on the taxiway to enable a full length departure. Have been offered it in the past and to enable a departure at out weight we needed to use full length 21L. It does not look like a huge difference but it critical to our operation. Fairly heavy 773 and using the laptop for take off calculations which uses maximum runway length. Rgds.

[tundra runner]

Insider sources have revealed that an investigation is under way by GulpAir in BKK to uncover who authorized the sudden placement of the trees at the end of the runway without informing Gulp Air technical /performance dept.

It is apparent that GulpAir is not adept to changes or up to date with current customs regulations concerning the import of agricultural products into the Kingdom of Bahrain.

Perhaps GulpAir should include this material in their training program and loft sessions.

[ironbutt57]

No hushup whatsoever..if u bother to read ur GF webmail

[Skinny Dog]

Here’s a tale about an imaginary airline, which for want of a better name, we’ll call Berrybigbay Airlines. In our totally imaginary tale, among its many exotic ports of call, we’ll have our imaginary airline flying to a remote island destination, Barebonesabad, which has a single runway with a parallel taxiway that is wide enough for light turboprops but nothing bigger. The only taxiway that will take a widebody (which is want we’ll have our imaginary Berrybigbay Airlines fly) joins the runway at 90 degrees about half way along its length and leads into the apron.

Departing Barebonesabad one day, unexplainably, (and heedless of the company notice not to do so), one of the Berrybigbay Airlines captains taxied his widebody up the too narrow parallel taxiway. This left his outer wheels well into the (very soft) grass. Unfortunately, the taxiway lights were at exactly the same spacing as the outer wheels of the widebody. Even more unfortunate was the fact that the taxiway lights were placed on steel posts set in concrete. The outer tyres on both bogeys on both sides were completely destroyed by a succession of steel posts before they got anywhere near the runway.

Then came the time to turn onto the runway...

Holding the nosewheel studiously on the taxiway centreline, Captain Thingamy Wahtsit suddenly found he needed a bit more power as the mains on the inside of the turn sank deeply into the soft grass. (There was an ‘up’ side to this - the inner taxi lights on the turn remained unscathed.) So much power did he need in fact, that, incredible as this may seem, he blew a hangar away, in which, unfortunately, were three light aircraft.

He then he proceeded to take off, which, a mute testament to the engineering skills of the people who built this particular widebody, he managed to do successfully, despite getting a wheel well fire warning after takeoff, which went away after a few minutes, so he set out as planned for his destination.

Some time after departure, Barebonesabad ATC informed Captain Thingamy Wahtsit that ‘there was a bit of rubber on the runway’. (At this early stage, they were yet to discover their marked reduction in taxiway lighting or the absence of one of their very few hangars.) We can’t be sure of the thought process in the imaginary cockpit, but believe it might have gone something along these lines: ‘Ahh, we had a wheel well fire warning after takeoff. Maybe we blew a tyre on takeoff.’

So Captain Thingmy Wahtsit decides to divert straight to Berrybigbay Airlines’ main maintenance base – but he doesn’t tell anybody on board. The first thing the passengers and cabin crew know that anything is unusual is when he does a 100’ flyby past the tower at Mainaintenancebase – at night – and the pax see that the building going past the windows very close doesn’t look like their destination at all.

After a quick, if perhaps not too reassuring PA to tell his hapless pax that is said to have included the phrase that ‘if you have a God, this might be a good time to pray to Him’, Captain Thingamy Wahtsit lands (successfully) and signs the aircraft off with nothing entered in the tech log and departs for the hotel.

I never did hear what happened to the hangar in Barebonesabad that is no more, but I’m sure there are a few people out there like chrislamb[/b and [b]Abbeville who could come up with a few informed opinions as to what happened to the (totally imaginary) Captain Thingamy Wahtsit and his FO.

[ironbutt57]

Old story, old news...we could jam Dannys website with stories abouts lotsa airlines and their misadventures...what to do?:(

[Nattracks]

Skinny dog,

The tale continous. The airline pays the airport for the lost hangar and the captain continous flying as if nothing had happend. He still tells the passengers "welcome to my country" whereever he lands.

:cool:
Nattracks

[Skylion]

Some similarities with an incident over 40 years ago,- circa 1961 when a SAA B 707 collected an olive tree on departure from Athens. Despite knowing they had hit something ,the flight was continued to Nairobi where said tree was conspicuously embedded in the lower rear fuselage just behind the pressure bulkhead. As far as I can remember that was the end of some of the flight decks career with the company.

[UNCTUOUS]

As Safety Guy said Seems there's more at play here than a simple runway change, IMHO.

There may be 200m difference between runway 21R (at 12,139 ft) and 21L (at 11,461 ft) but surely either would be more than long enough in the hottest temperatures to get off....even with 10 kts of tail.

There are three types of Spatial Disorientation

Type I (Unrecognized): The pilot is oblivious to his or her disorientation, and controls the aircraft completely in accord with and in response to a false orientational percept.

Type II (Recognized): The pilots may experience a conflict between what they feel the aircraft is doing and what the flight instruments show that it is doing.

Type III (Incapacitating): The pilot experiences an overwhelming -- i.e., incapacitating – physiologic response to physical or emotional stimuli associated with the disorientation event.


Sounds more like the ultimate and most lethal somatogravic illusion - the pitch-up illusion

You go up - then you come down. Surviving to then get your comeuppance is a rare exception to the norm.

[sikeano]

guys you seem to miss the big picture the captain took off from a taxiway cleaned the obstruction to the runway ferried it to next port of call landed sucessfully disposed the garbage whey he what more do you need blood thank god he avoided jfk just imagine flying to jfk with all that load with a name like gulf strewth he might just be fried
:ok:

[Left Coaster]

Notwithstanding the above "explanation", try to name an airline out there that hasn't had some sort of T/O incident where a heavy jet almost or did contact an obstruction but kept flying. (Returns to dep airport count) Seriously...There aren't that many who haven't. So let's see what the numbers look like. My point? You guys are smart, figure it out...
Fire away!
:rolleyes:

[GotTheTshirt]

57,
I appreciate that English may not be your primary language but this is a RUMOURS and NEWS website.

Something that appears on the GF site does not reach many people which in case you missed was the point of the Email. Not only the incident but the cover up ;)

Anyway most people seemed to find it of interest ( except yourself of course:confused: )

[vfenext]

Positively no cover up. Initial investigation complete and report will be issued soon. The reason the crew elected to continue was no abnormal indications on the ecam. They believed it was a burst tyre on T/O. There was no eng vib and no evac in bahrain as some of the armchair experts (lol) here have said. The crew waiting on their fate, so cut them some slack til we have all the facts. Damage was to one brake unit and two blades in one eng. The aircraft landed safely after a precautionary landing with all engines running and in tact fuel reserves. Now quit the kangaroo court.

[Left Coaster]

Why? Does it matter where the crew was from????:mad:

[Left Coaster]

Are you saying that the investigating authorities make "allowances" for race? Or for non expat v expat? Or for who you know not what? Bring it here if they do... cause I'm sure that DGCAM or whoever your regulator might be they will not be happy to hear that there are seems to be two standards at work during an investigation...;)

[lomapaseo]

Are you saying that the investigating authorities make "allowances" for race? Or for non expat v expat? Or for who you know not what? Bring it here if they do... cause I'm sure that DGCAM or whoever your regulator might be they will not be happy to hear that there are seems to be two standards at work during an investigation...

I interpreteds And Then's comment to refer to what happens after the investigation and not necessarily a negative comment to the investigation itself.

[ia1166]

You don't have to look too far back for an example. The 330 single engine ferry? Don't think a contract capt would have got off that lightly.

[Left Coaster]

Not sure why nationality plays any role in any level investigation, but I would only like to suggest that before we hang the guilty party we at least give him a fair trial.;) The ink isn't dry on the paper yet!
LC

[ironbutt57]

well there "got the t shirt" why don't you get the life to go with it....do you think every incident should be splattered all over the headlines and this website before the basic facts are out? if not does that constitute a cover up?..methinks not there has been no effort to hide or suppress details of this incident to folks whose business it is...namely GF employees...so continue to be a conspiracy theorist as u wish, but no coverups here..and btw i was speaking english when the better part of you was running down your mom's thigh!!!:}

[brfc]

Go to www.gulf-daily-news.com letters page on 19th April for a denial of anything untoward happening on this flight!!
Viz. A Gulf Air spokesman said: "The Bangkok to Bahrain Gulf Air flight on April 5 was as normal as it ever could be"...................!!

[RoyHudd]

Might as well read about the "incident" in VIZ magazine, no chance of getting the truth in the afore-mentioned Gulf News rag. Sorry, but true.

[Belgique]

ia1166

The 330 single engine ferry? Don't think a contract capt would have got off that lightly.

This included a single-engine take-off? Surely you jest?

That Gulf News letter quote from the Gulf Air spokesperson looks as though he's exploiting the wrong date being cited. People sometimes forget that they're gaining or losing a day in air travel.

A Gulf Air spokesman said: "This letter was followed up and the Bangkok to Bahrain Gulf Air flight on April 5 was as normal as it ever could be."

Letter verbatim:
COMING from Bangkok on April 5 on GA115 there was a tremendous bang on take off, sounded like a tyre burst.
I was actually sitting close to a GF First Officer who was flying on to another destination and he tried to find out what the problem was but he could not get into the flight deck.
No one mentioned anything to the passengers but we carried on to Bahrain and on arrival we all got off at an unusual place because apparently the aircraft was unable to taxi after landing.
I heard some rumours that the aircraft had struck a tree on take off and the remains of the tree were stuck in the engine and undercarriage but no-one seemed to know what was going on.
I haven't seen anything in the newspaper yet - but it was very worrying at the time.
Concerned
A Gulf Air spokesman said: "This letter was followed up and the Bangkok to Bahrain Gulf Air flight on April 5 was as normal as it ever could be."

[ironbutt57]

The person submitting this letter to the GDN has the correct date????? and before they wrote thier "letter of concern" to the press, they should have looked at thier ticket (if they ever had one) because even the submitted flight number is incorrect....sounds like someone on a fishing expedition to me, and yes, I read the letter...:confused: :bored:

[ia1166]

Belgique. I'm refering to the 330 in flight shut down over KHI. If you don't know about it then you're not in GF. suffice to say it was refered to DGCAM who wanted a more positive response from GF but the end result was certainly different to how a western airline would have handled it. Nuff said.

[Desertia]

Whoever decided the flight number being wrong was an issue should realise that the GDN is prone to the odd typo!

The fact that the plane didn't taxi and the passengers were offloaded in situ tells you something was not quite right.

I've done 3 Bkk-Bah's in the last 3 months and every one has parked at the terminal so we can walk straight in.

The GDN are never going to slag off GF simply because they make too much money out of them.

No-one ever expects to hear the truth from GF.

Hogan has turned it into a mass transit airline with overworked cabin crew, and the main reason most people fly them is because they are filthy cheap.

If and when Thai Airways return to Bahrain, I'd happily leap on them every time rather than fly GF.

No fault on the flight deck, cabin crew or mtce. staff, they're just being run into the ground by poor management looking to turn a fast back at the expense of the airline's long term future (which I doubt is rosy anyway).

Mind you, with Emirates, Al Etihad and Qatar to compete with, they're up against it anyway.

Cheers,
Desertia

[ia1166]

desertia. Whats your point? there are numerous remote stands at Bahrain. Just coz you're not parked at an airbridge you think there's a major cover up in force? You may be a bit paranoid there fella. next thing you may be asking for a breathaliser test.
Walk on freight specialists we can do without in the industry thanks very much. 3 flights in 3 months? my cat flies more than that.
And although i don't agree with gf management, if it wasn't for hoges, bahrain wouldn't have an airline by now. You'd be getting the ferry to dubai for your international travel requirements.

[Desertia]

(1) I'm merely establishing that in my experience it seems to be unusual for a fully laden Bkk-Bah to park on the tarmac and bus people to the terminal.

(2) Gulf Air would never cover anything up. Oh no. Please get real :)

(3) Totally agree with you that Hoges has turned the airline around. I believe his conditions were that he bring his own team in and that started with the bean counters. My point is that turning it into a budget airline is a terrible shame.
As someone else stated, it used to be a prestigious airline. Now it's just a cheap one. Maybe that's the market, I don't know.

Cheers,
Desertia

[ironbutt57]

If anybody thinks the GDN wont print "disconcerting" facts about GF, then you haven't been in Bahrain very long:cool:

[Baywatcher]

CEO James Hogan has, depending on the
outcome of the board of Inquiry into the recent incident of flight GF 151 ex
BKK on the 5th April, demanded the resignation of the OPS accountable
manager the VPO Mr Hameed Ali. It transpires the Capt involved in the
incident is Hameed Ali's nephew and that a mega cover up has been attempted
on his behalf by the accountable manager. Apparently Hogan is demanding his
resignation whatever the outcome anyway'

Even the nose cone had to be replaced!

VPO was also guy who checked out the Capt on GF072 who should never have been near an airport, let alone an aircraft!

[BahrainLad]

If that's true, and it happens, then it's very good news for the airline.

Agree with you on the overworked crew though.....on a GF008 ex LHR recently it took so long to serve the meal and so long to serve breakfast, there was a grand total of 2h30m for sleeping. On a 10pm departure, not good!

[ia1166]

Hoges vs Hameed Ali? If it's tue then it will be very interesting to see who wins that one. It doesn't suprise me in the slightest that it's a family cover up issue.
By the way, what ever happened to the Hill/Taha smoking and 'friends in the cockpit' battle? And i suppose the Skylion is back in the rhs?

[Plastique]

Baywatcher:
Thats an excellent rumour about Hogan vs. Ali!

Explosive stuff!
Can anyone substantiate it?

[Fokkerwokker]

Knowing Baywatcher's sources he is more than likely spot on.

[Desertia]

So if, as Gulf Air put it, "The Bangkok to Bahrain Gulf Air flight on April 5 was as normal as it ever could be", then why are they having an investigation (which has been confirmed by two separate and very reliable sources now - I know two of the investigation team!).

If they are covering this up because of company politics, they need bloody shooting. That's what happened the last time they messed things up with the cowboy up the front.

Cheers,
Desertia

[mogley]

FokkerWokker, sorry to say that your faith in Baywatcher's sources is totally unfounded. As I am sure that if both of you had any serious time in GF you would not come up with a statement that the Capt invovled is H.A. nephew.
Great sources:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Pandy]

What seems to be overlooked is that GFs insurers in London read about these sort of events on these & other boards. And guess what if (after investigation) it 'holds water' up go the premiums, which are quite high enough after 3 losses since the A320 at AUH.

Remember the Malaysian 747's landing @ LHR with 1 or 2 tons of fuel left a few years back. Well, (i'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't happen any more, who sorted that?

PPrune has its uses.

[vfenext]

Bet the insurers had a field day with Emirates after the Joburg incident. Not to mention nearly stalling a 310 in DXB, let he who is without sin cast the first stone!

[Belgique]

But why did this aircraft hit trees well off the end of a 12,000ft plus runway?

Was it at night? Was it a pitch-up illusion?

OR WHAT?

[Pontious]

I would say take-off performance calculations worked out for a full length departure from the longer and/or 'obstacle free' runway whereas actual departure was from an intersection on a shorter and/or 'obstacle penalised' runway. Blended with copious ammounts of face saving.



:ok:

[vfenext]

Are you not going to mention the copious amounts of speculation by people who have no facts? Guilty til proven innocent it seems, hope you never find yourself in that situation.

[lifeb4767]

Speculation, it had to be very close to the approach lights for 03R,
maybe then there would be no speculation.

[ironbutt57]

I agree with you vfe next, but it IS a rumour network so let them ramble on....the facts will surface in due time...

[fox niner]

No. This is indeed just another Middle Eastern cover-up and save face exersize.

Jee man. How low can you go (literally) with an airplane?

[Pontious]

Or if they departed off their intended runway, maybe they based their calculations upon the ZFW instead of the TOW. They would give a low Flex & low Vspeeds but realistically the aircraft would gobble up MUCH more runway. Either way, a 'ground strike' followed by an immediate return is a hazard & unfortunately the nature of the job. NOT landing immediately is tantermount to wreckless endangerment especially if it is to save face!

Comments Ironbutt? Vfenext?

:ok:

[ironbutt57]

heard so many variations on the theme, that it would be irresponsible for me to comment, and none of these from official, or sources "in the know", just a bunch of pilots in the ops room, speculating like the folks here...so gonna wait and see what the outcome of the investigation is.....:ok:

[ironbutt57]

What to do??? wait and see...glad I wasn't onboard either..or the J'burg one either...

[Pontious]

Ironbutt

The EK Jo'burg crew made the correct decision and landed ASAP therefore not jeopardising the crew, pax and aircraft by continuing for a 7+ hour pressurised flight. The 'Captain' of the Gulf Air 151 flight did not.

The pax contributing information, producing visible evidence and bringing it to the attention of the crew only for it to be ignored beggars belief.

We've been here before, at a place called Kegworth.


Feel free to post the outcome of the 'investigation' here. I haven't had a good laugh in ages.

:ok:

[ironbutt57]

not comparing the two...not criticizing either crew...ek rushed things and fired the crew...no? then hired them back... GF take it's time and sort it out properly the first time (I hope)...

[Farrell]

Funny how in some cases, with some pilots.....that just the sound of something unusual is enough to justify a return to the airport for safety reasons.... no screaming or irate pax required.....

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=837692&WxsIERv=Nveohf%20N340-313&WdsYXMg=Nve%20Pnanqn&QtODMg=Ybaqba%20-%20Urnguebj%20%28YUE%20%2F%20RTYY%29&ERDLTkt=HX%20-%20Ratynaq&ktODMp=Znl%202%2C%202005&BP=1&WNEb25u=Xriva%20Pnqq&xsIERvdWdsY=P-SGAD&MgTUQtODMgKE=Nsgre%20gnxrbss%20sebz%20YUE%2C%20gur%20pncgnva %20urneq%20n%20onat%20naq%20qrpvqrq%20gb%20erghea.%20Ynaqvat %20trne%20ahzore%20%233%20ba%20gur%20evtug%20unaq%20znva%20t rne%20unq%20fuerqqrq%2C%20urer%20vf%20gur%20ebyy%20bhg%20nsg re%20gbhpuqbja%20jvgu%20sver%20freivpvrf%20va%20nggraqnapr%2 1&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=25041&NEb25uZWxs=2005-05-13%2018%3A58%3A25&ODJ9dvCE=981&O89Dcjdg=088&static=yes&width=1024&height=780&sok=JURER%20%20%28%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27837692%27%20BE%20cu bgb_vq%20%3D%20%27837323%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%2783723 5%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27837122%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20 %3D%20%27837111%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27836858%27%20BE %20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27836552%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27 836230%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27835922%27%20BE%20cubgb_ vq%20%3D%20%27835728%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27835555%27 %20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27835479%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D% 20%27835065%27%20BE%20cubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27834760%27%20BE%20c ubgb_vq%20%3D%20%27834505%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%2 0QRFP&photo_nr=16&prev_id=&next_id=837323&size=L

I'm telling you, I've had it flying with Gulf and the other 'save face at all costs' airlines!

[ironbutt57]

Good Farrell...stay away...hippity hop 'round your own country...find an airline that hasn't had a misadventure...what about the lying and covering up during the concorde investigation....metal strip??? what about the wheel spacer missing, and other evidence "sequestered" by the French investigators, and denied inspection by the other involved parties....

[gccpro]

You might find your imaginary dog not in some miaginary bay but closer to you in Abu Dhabi where he is this time and after much trying somwhere else to run his own airline. Still with no log entries but with the captain's stripes!

We are pleased to announce though that the airline industry is showing positive growth after all these positive climbs as Abu Dhabi Airport now have a dedicated service for clearing up the runways from the unsuspected bits of rubber of unknown origin found on a daily basis!

As a matter of fact GAMCO have announced the opening of their new retreading facility in the hangar and trap shutting ward in their clinic.

:E :E :E :E :E :E :E

[Farrell]

ironbutt57........whoa! dude, relax there........just a joke man! Jesus!......

If your around the Wisconsin area in June, PM me and we'll go for a Blue Moon or a steak!

Sorry to have p*ssed you off!

:p

oh and ..... I'm not French....I'm Irish......we don't cover up anything! :E

[Pontious]

I'm not impressed with GF's safety standards. Flew recently DXB-BAH on an A320.Some pax never switched their mobile phones off until the aircraft was well into the air, despite the PA by the crew saying they weren't to be used during the flight. I tried to tell some of the cabin crew but all I got was a shrug, some pax smoked openly... the list was endless. Suffice it to say for the return I flew back to DXB with my own carrier. I will NEVER travel with GF again!

[Pontious]

If I'd known about some of the horror stories that the ex-GF F/O's now in EK tell about sim'details they've witnessed while at GF then I wouldn't have travelled GF in the first place!

:ok:

[vfenext]

I think from your previous posts its because you are a nieve little precious soul. Stay on the ground you will feel safer, hate to think you would be exposed to all those mobile phones and smoking pax. You must have had a sheltered childhood. The People in your employ must feel very lucky, oh the power!!!!

[vfenext]

Ironbutt..Strange you should make that observation about the grooming manager. Just recently i.e. in the last few weeks, speaking to the CC I have heard similar allegations and ridiculous stories about her so called standards. In order to justify her new position there are letters flying around calling people to the office for the most trivial of things.
BIRDSEED not trying to hide anything but when someone exaggerates pax smoking and mobile phones on a 40 min flight it needs to be treated for what it is, sensationalist!! If mobile phones bother you then don't fly in the gulf cause you can tell them to switch them off til you are blue in the face. As for smoking, are you seriously telling me this does not happen EVERYDAY on EVERY airline. Next topic please.:zzz:

[sirwa69]

Pontious

I will take issue with your claims.

I have flown 106 intra gulf flights with Gulf Air in the last 12 months. While I have frequently witnessed mobile phones being used or ringing (I have even forgot to switch mine off on more than one occasion) I have never, I will repeat that so you get it, NEVER seen any pax smoking.
While the cabin crew have difficulty with mobile phones I doubt if there would be any truck with smoking.

Incidently, Emirates have decided that they are to allow the use of mobile phones on their aircraft. So where's the safety problem.

Now many members of this forum will know that I am not an employee or appologist for Gulf Air, what I am is a regular flyer with them and I personally do not have any issue with their safety.

On On

[Ugly Buzzard]

I wouldn't say it is all rosy here at GF, but I would say we are holding our own. We are not subsidized, nor do we have airport duty free on our books. Despite this we made a profit! I've met a gaggle of new-hire pilots that have joined the airline. I foresee the manpower issue will soon be a non-issue. We're getting a bonus! and a pay raise! I am confident that any incident investigations will be conducted and presented in an unbiased and transparent manner.
Coming up 2 decades and still having a ball!!

[ia1166]

On the subject of incident reports, has the full report on GF072 ever been published? Its only been 5 years though. Maybe we could keep this thread going till 2010 and find out the truth.

[mutt]

ia1166,

This report was on the Bahrain airport website a couple of years ago.

ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION REPORT
Gulf Air Flight GF-072
Airbus A320-212, REG. A40-EK
on 23 August 2000 at Bahrain

Shaikh Ali bin Khalifa Al Khalifa
Minister of Transportation
Chairman, Accident Investigation Board Manama Kingdom of Bahrain 10 July 2002



Is that the one you were waiting for?

Mutt

[ia1166]

Is it accurate and transparent to quote the above? I don't think anybody has accepted liability.

[Baywatcher]

Hopefully it will say that the Captain should not have been near an airport, let alone an airplane.

[barit1]

Accident report (http://www.bahrainairport.com/arabic/caa/civil_gf072.htm) essentially ascribes this CFIT to GF management in terms of lack of training and supervision, & poor/nonexistent CRM.

Yes, it may be true this captain shouldn't have been in this job, but whose fault is that? Just because he got away with that level of incompetence for so long shows that management didn't (or couldn't) do their job.

[ia1166]

Exactly. Nothing changed then.

[vfenext]

ia166 are you so bored you need to bring up something which happened 5 years ago? You know better than anyone how much has changed and how the training/crm is now. You were responsible for some of it for god's sake! Don't turn into a bitter ex employee it does not suit you. Sure it's not perfect but it's as good as any in the area. I don't hear you talking about EK's Jo'burg incident 18months ago, still no report on that and the guys are going back online soon. That was as close to a hull loss as you can get. You will be bringing up the Hindenberg incident next:p

[ia1166]

Yes you are right. everything in the training department has changed and in my humble and irrelevent opinion GF's training department is among the best. But has the culture changed? This could be a good litmus test.

[scanscanscan]

Why should any culture change?
Look around the world...the Arabs seem to be in far better shape than many.....and they seem quite well off.

[Left Coaster]

Uh...that probably should read "Corporate Culture" Not Arabic Culture. Nothing here ever intended a slur on any ethnicities...Only internal policies as they USED to be.

[ironbutt57]

"Seem" being the keyword.........and why, and by whom?

[ExSimGuy]

Glad to have seen that post - I had missed the "results" previously and had wondered if our "guesses" at the time (spatial disorientation) were correct.

We all make mistakes, but the Skipper and FO on that one didn't get the chance to learn from them - they paid with their lives:(

Sympathy as always to all the lost and to their loved ones. Hopefully their losses will make the industry safer and do some good.

[scanscanscan]

Sim guy....The two previous fatal accidents on straight in approaches to landing into rw12 Bahrain at night by Air France DC4's were attributed to the Black Hole effect you mention on the pilots on a long overwater straight in night approach.
As a result of these crashes Gulf Aviation introduced a standing order that its crews would always use an ILS with glideslope indication if within aircraft and weather limits and available, on all future company approaches.
If not within aircraft limits but within weather limits the full overhead instrument procedure was to be flown and not a long night over water final into a black hole effect.
After Gulf Aviation became Gulf Air and expanded and new trainers took over this standing order over time was nolonger enforced as they told me... "It wastes time and it is uneconomic"
I agreed, and ignored them for 23years and luckily nobody complained.
The three qualified national A320 pilots on GF073 were all reported to have been affected by Somatogravic effect on their inner ears by the aircraft acceleration and then all overwhelmed by the various aircraft attitudes,gyrations, and accelerations.
Please correct me if I am wrong but I think the black hole effect is a different animal to Somatogravic effect.
Importantly I do not think Somatogravic effect can be induced in the A320 simulator and trained for but the Black hole effect can.
Sometimes we all have to get on the gauges and scanscanscan to survive.

[ExSimGuy]

SSS - not sure what the Black Hole Effect means, but in the sims, we are limited to some 10 feet of movement in any direction (unless training centres have got a lot bigger!!)

So we "simulate" acelleration by actually putting the nose of the sim up (after initially moving the cabin forwards "surge" to give the right idea) but don't "nose up" the visual or the instruments. (you've probably been in sims so you know what I mean). Pilot feels some of his weight on his back and asumes (especially with the instruments and visuals to back up the idea) that he is accellerating.

In the "real world", the opposite can happen - you feel the weight on your back and assume you are climbing, when in fact you may be diving and accellerating - as I always suspected happened in this tragedy.

The "sim" effect can be demonstrated by having a couple of healthy guys "chair" a blindfolded guy. They lift him up quite quickly, the very slowly lower him to close to the ground, do this again, then he is told to "jump down". He jumps as if he is a couple of feet from the ground but finds he hits the ground almost immediately.

Sorry if I'm teaching some Grandmothers to suck eggs, but I felt it's a worthwhile explanation to post.

As you say - "scan, scan" (and scan again, to be sure!)

Stu

[ironbutt57]

There was no ILS installed on RWY 12 at OBBI at the time....the crew simply operated outside SOP's regarding go-around procedures, and became disoriented in the process...any amount of experience wouldn't have prevented the disorientation, but it would have maybe helped the crew recognize the potential for this to occur, and helped them recover from it....

[Dan Winterland]

Somatogravic illusion is a very powerful sensation. With visual clues it is hard to supress, with no clues almost impossible. This is why the 'black hole effect' is relevant.

[MrBernoulli]

Somatogravic illusion is really hammered into you during avmed training in the RAF, because of its ability to kill. You are put into a small sim-type box that enables you to experience it during your initial training and during your refresher training.

As Dan W says, a very powerful illusion that must be known about ...... and experienced in training, if at all possible.

[Plastique]

At the risk of sounding sarcastic, this is turning to a weblog...

Does anyone have any useful to add about the GF151 incident in BKK, or have the men in the black suits come around and erased the memories of everyone involved???

There has not been one jot of useful information concerning the disturbing incident in BKK. Nobody can offer a sensible explanation as to why that aircraft was so low so far off the normal departure track.

If you want to discuss ad nauseum A320's ending up in the drink, start another thread.

[ExSimGuy]

"Mea Culpa", Plastique - sorry:\

[scanscanscan]

Sorry Plastique.....
Ironbutt...Because 12 does not have an ILS.. that is why... as 30 ILS was within limits on the A320 crash night Gulf Aviation pilots would have been required by Sops to request it and use it.

[ia1166]

I have to disagree. Since when is an initial take off an instrument procedure? If the guys were staring at the PFD during rotation and initial pitch setting then it may well be a contributary factor to why they hit the trees. If they were looking out the front they may well have spotted the problem earlier, rammed on TOGA and pulled back a little bit smarter. Same for the joburg incident IMHO. The procedure is to smoothly rotate visually at 3 deg per second to 15 deg nose up. Not follow the beam bar and at rotate set pitch via the pfd and the maltese cross.

[MachD]

Hey SSS,

"In 1967 I had a DC3 medical evac landing/takeoff on a night as "Black as a whitches tit". "

Don't mix your metaphors please.

"Dry as a whitches tit" is correct. Be careful with the "Black as.........."

Good info in your post though... experience passed down is invaluable but becoming rare these days..........thanks.

[ExSimGuy]

and I always thought it was "cold as a witch's (note sp ;) ) tit!

[jack red]

It's actually "Cold as a mother-in-law's kiss!"

[bullshot]

and.. as black as a badger's @rse on a dark night...

[alfa767]

If and when Thai Airways return to Bahrain, I'd happily leap on them every time rather than fly GF.


Hi Desertia

You don't need to have Thai to operat from Bah . As a Qatari I invite you to fly Qr from DOH with an easy and fast transit in Doh with option of two daily flights to BKK and then see the difference .

I personally have flown with GF to BKK seven times before .I suffered alot .I remember once flew fromBKK to DOh on a hired 747 in 1987 . we had to stop in Dhaka, then in Musct and we changed aircraft in Bah , flew to Doh next day we spent almost one day to get to Doha .

But there was a superp flight I flew with GF to BKK on 14 th Jan 1988. the flight GF150 I most enjoyed the Tristar aircraft , wich I consider the best in the world .( I don't know why they stopped manufacturing this legendary aircraft )

But I still see the 767 aircaft of gulf air doing very well at the Gulf Traveller Division wtih less techincal problems.

I think Gulf Air now in it's final stages , in a short time we will be hearing Abu Dhabi announces it's withdrwal from the company .

Bahrianese have to depend on them selves to rebuild a strong national flag carrier.

[ironbutt57]

Good thing you have it all figured out there mr alpha 767:yuk: