BMI-Look to MAN as your main HUB

[concorde001]

I've just been thinking, and this is just a thought, wouldn't it make sense for bmi to make MAN (Manchester) their main hub. I really think MAN could be what CDG is for Air France. If you look at AF operations at CDG, some 50% if not more of AF's passengers are connecting as CDG is not their final destination. For example, from LHR, the AF2471 to CDG has passengers of which 75% if not more are only connecting in Paris, LOS is the most popular in the mornings.
Now, if bmi could expand their US operations from MAN which they could do massively because there are no restrictions in the form of Bermuda II, while at the same time expanding eastwards into Europe and Asia I really think it could work.
Also, MAN could have an advantage over LHR, by connecting the regions of the UK into MAN so they could benefit from connections, without having to drive miles to the nearest airport!
I know that MAN would need to increase terminal space and stands for aircraft, but I think it would be successful.
The way I see it, bmi could be waiting ages for LHR to open up, but even if it does, LHR is slot restricted!
Any thoughts?

[Nakata77]

i agree that bmi are waisting time not developing MAN as quickly as possible. They are too obsessed with developing LHR.

A perfect synergy between domestic, EU and long-haul routes could be developed at MAN, and they can't seem to recognise the opportunity.

[concorde001]

Exactly my point!
MAN has CO, MH, SQ, AA, DL, EK serving daily and double daily flights some of them! If you leave connecting traffic on one side, I think there is sufficient demand in the North West itself to warrant flights to the N.America and Asia!
Let me give an example of one carrier at MAN which is succesful by using it as a hub.
PK, Pakistan Int'l Airlines has alot of passengers starting their journey in MAN because of the huge Pakistani population in the North West, but they also use MAN as a stopover for flights to North Amercican, namely JFK, IAH, ORD and YYZ.

[MAN777]

Good point, but BMi already have a large amount of european and domestic flights operating out of LHR, these are code shared with Star alliance airlines, BMi would dearly love to do some of the transatlantic themselves but there is no sign of that happening.

It would be a huge gamble to transfer capacity away from LHR just to service a few long hauls out of MAN.

I do agree that there is still a huge untapped market up north.

As a side, I have just used Bmi to Chicago and was very impressed with them, a very nice product that puts others to shame.

[concorde001]

Its not just a 'few longhauls' I'm talking about, but rather a concerted effort to develop MAN into a type of CDG that AF has.
I don't think they should give up LHR, rather change their dogs dinner schedule into schedule which concentrates on mainly business routes with regular frequencies - I mean, they don't even serve FRA - thats just codeshare and BCN is hardly served. I suppose Germany is well covered by LH, but Spain needs major work - BA/IB combined have a monopoly on those routes!

[On standby]

Sir Michael seems to have this burning desire to go longhaul out of LHR.

When BMI first joined the Star Alliance, they had opportunities to fly from STN and connect with the LH routes. This was back when Ryanair had 4/5 planes there. They could have done a similar project to your idea but didn't. It seems that its lHR and forget other opportunities.

[concorde001]

I doubt though STN would have worked. LHR is London's principle Airport, nearest to central London, with the best transport links, e.g. Underground, roads, Heathrow Express and now Crossrail in 2012/13.
Manchester is far enough from London, to warrant its own services. But if you look at Manchester as a city, it is going places.
When I went to Manchester, I had a picture of a depressed industrial city. I couldn't have been more wrong - its bright, young, with some brilliant architecture, above all else, its the North West's main financial centre! Sure, outside the main city there is some major work to do, but Manchester as a city is really going places...only recently the BBC decided to make Manchester the 'new 'London in terms of media.
I think its a shame that a British airline, in this case BD is failing to recognise an opportunity at a time when it has no clear direction. BA is comfortable at LHR, but BD isn't! BD made only 2 million GBP last year - come on... with the slots they have at LHR they should be making more!

[ATNotts]

There is but one major stumbling block to the idea - that is the shear London-centric nature of the UK. Most foreigners cannot perceive there is anything in the UK outside London, except possible Edinburgh which has benefitted tremendously from become a "recognised" world capital.

What works very well in Germany (with FRA and MUC) which is truly federal nation (apologies to the Eurosceptics for swearing) where each state is essentially equal, will be more difficult to emulate in UK.

You mention AF and CDG - but where is CDG? Answer Paris. France, like Britain is very "capital-centric" and it would be difficult to do the same thing, with for example, Lyon which is a city very comparable with Manchester.

I'd really like to be proved wrong though. Wealth and development needs to be spread more equally in England.

[concorde001]

"You mention AF and CDG - but where is CDG? Answer Paris. France, like Britain is very "capital-centric" and it would be difficult to do the same thing, with for example, Lyon which is a city very comparable with Manchester."

I think the UK is different from France in many ways - unlike LYS, TLS or other French cities, MAN already has many international destinations, but hardly any by British carriers, for example CO (doubly daily), SQ, EK (which is doubly daily)!
Unlike LHR, CDG is more of connecting airport. For example, if you look at the arrivals hall in CDG when a flight from LOS arrives, there will be perhaps 20, IF THAT, passengers waiting for luggage, because the rest will be in the transit area! This is true with AF flights to DEL, almost 60-70% of passengers are in transit from the US and Canada!
So, I think regardless of the UK being Capital City mad, MAN has potential :) .

[330-Purser]

Lets be honest here... MAN has only ever been somewhere to keep the A330's until they can be redeployed at LHR!

Mark my words, they'll start going one by one until everyone at The Hall is happy that bmi is a long haul carrier from LHR.

Sad, because MAN is so much easier for connections that LHR but they won't listen. It will fall on deaf ears as always.

[concorde001]

"Lets be honest here... MAN has only ever been somewhere to keep the A330's until they can be redeployed at LHR!"

Your 100% right! But its sad.
But, what on earth is bmi's strategy, because I really don't have a clue!
As far as I'm concerned, they have 2 options:

1) They merge/get bought buy by VS or BA meaning that bmi as a brand will be lost
2) Get their act together and produce a simple business plan with MAN as their main hub.

At the moment they are:
-a low cost airline from the regions (bmibaby)
-a regional airline (bmi regional)
-a full frills European airline from LHR with mainly leisure routes, not the $$ earning business ones
-4 flights a week to BOM and 3 to RUY from LHR, (how on earth are you going to compete to India when BA has daily, AI double daily and SV has near monopoly on LHR-Saudi flights?
-3 US destinations from MAN, with one operated by a 757, which isn't even theirs!

I mean, if that isn't a dogs dinner of a strategy, what is? ;)

[expelair]

I agree with all thats been said, i think it is a real shame that bmi is fixsated with LHR just as the public are, or so we are told.

D/Hall Attitude!
NOT THE ROUTE CAPACITY OUT OF MAN. YOU WILL NEVER PULL TRAFFIC FROM LHR UP TO MAN.

Come on give the public some credit bmi there are other airports and given the choice i'm sure most people would not to go to LHR. look at all those from regional airports who cross the channel to go to the US, why anything is better than LHR.

[concorde001]

"Come on give the public some credit bmi there are other airports and given the choice i'm sure most people would not to go to LHR. look at all those from regional airports who cross the channel to go to the US, why anything is better than LHR."

CO and EK have taken advantage of that like no other airline!

CO flies to BHX (double daily)
MAN (going double daily)
GLA (daily)
EDI (daily)
BRS (daily to start in June)

EK flies to BHX (daily)
MAN (DOUBLE daily)
GLA (daily)

[lexxity]

How nice to see some sense being spoken about bmi out of MAN, we are forever saying that if they expanded like fury the longhaul network, ie LAX/SFO, JNB/CPT and such like, advertised like it was going out of fashion(rememeber the civil aviation ads?) then MAN would be a belting hub and BD would be raking it in. There are already lots of star connections into and out of MAN so there is no problem with that. If only.

Unfortunately 330 purser is so right, we have already seen it with the removal of one 330 to LHR to service ridiculous routes.

[alterego]

Sir Michael wants LHR. Lufty bought into BMI for LHR slots.

MAN would be a very good idea but then Airline Management is like Military Intelligence..... neither exist properly.

[concorde001]

Does anyone know, if BMI bought all its shares back from LH and SK, how many slots would they have at LHR. Because from the rubbish schedule they have at LHR at the moment, how can they claim they have 14% of slots - half of Europe is not even covered!

[Re-Heat]

Unfortunately 330 purser is so right, we have already seen it with the removal of one 330 to LHR to service ridiculous routes.
Routes that are operated with regulatory constraints (India), therefore driving the price higher since the demand exceeds the capacity that is allowed (as with all of LHR with slot constraints).

The demand may exist at MAN, but if you can make more money from operating out of LHR, at an airport with slot constraints and a business community that far exceeds that of MAN, then where would you place your money? Plus they won't even need to advertise the new routes to India to make money on them - look at the price difference between flying from Heathrow and Manchester to India - the demand is higher down South.

I wonder what restrictions too are placed on their expansion by SAS/Lufthansa to avoid them competing against each other?

[concorde001]

"The demand may exist at MAN, but if you can make more money from operating out of LHR, at an airport with slot constraints and a business community that far exceeds that of MAN, then where would you place your money?"

But can they? BA and VS are the big players at LHR in terms of long-haul. How will bmi be able to construct an international network in comparison even to virgin when:
a) massive slot restrictions
b) route constraints - North America, India etc

[concorde001]

'Continental Airlines Cargo are pleased to announce that our widebody capacity will be retained from Manchester during 2005 and we are set to increase our direct online flights to 14 times weekly from Manchester to Newark to the following schedule:
Taken from 'Manchester Happenings' thread.

CO retaining the 763/764 flights plus adding an additional daily 752 to EWR! CO, being in the position that it is in...financial problems etc, wouldn't be flying to MAN if it wasn't profitable.
This increase goes further to prove that their is money to be made from MAN by a British carrier if it was made into a HUB where N.American passengers could connected onward to Europe and Asia/Africa and vice versa!

[pwalhx]

I am old enough to remember when BA didn't just pay lip service to longhaul from Manchester.

Then it wasn't just New York, it was Toronto, Montreal and the Carribean. Let's not forget they also ran Hong Kong and Los Angeles. So no doubt at one time there was thinking within BA there was a market before it became London obsessed.

However there was one intelligent idea floated when BA and SABENA considered merging or join operations. They suggested a plan for a joint hub in Manchester and Brussels. For example Westbound flights would originate in Bruseels through Manchester to the likes of Toronto and Florida and Eastbound they could originate flights in Manchester through Brussels and onto Singapre et al.

Is this not another viable scenario, I would suggest a prime candidate for this kind of opeartion could beCzech who seem to be fairly forward thinking at the moment. Hubbing through Manchester and Prague seems a good idea to a simpleton like me.

[concorde001]

"Is this not another viable scenario, I would suggest a prime candidate for this kind of opeartion could beCzech who seem to be fairly forward thinking at the moment. Hubbing through Manchester and Prague seems a good idea to a simpleton like me."

The only problem is the CSA Czeck Airines (OK) or indeed any non-UK airline would not be allowed to operate a US bound flight from a British airport and pick up passengers ( I think that is the case).

As for BA, I think the reasons why they don't open or rather re-open long-haul from MAN are probably because of the following:
a) they are just about to move in to T5 when it opens and so they want to concentrate on that
b) Remember the long-haul ops from LGW? Many commentators have said that was a bad move by BA and they lost shedloads because of it - maybe BA are weary of having two hubs?
c) BA have got major debts to repay..and with the low costs and impressive profits they have hard won, BA sees LHR as its point for expansion. Opening upa hub at MAN for BA would mean extra costs, which they can ill afford to take on...they have to raise cash for some new planes as well!

This leaves in my view bmi, who have actually in my view, something to gain from expansion at MAN...alot to gain infact! If the open-skies agreement doesn't happen soon, and slots don't open up at LHR, bmi will either be swallowed by BA or bought by VS. Maybe thats a good thing as European airline consolidation is inevitable. BA could have the same share of slots at LHR with buying BD as AF and LH have at their respective bases. VS could also expand with BD.
But that would still mean MAN being overlooked.

[Mr A Tis]

I was hoping to go to Vegas with BMI fron Manchester in October. Even trying to book 6 months in advance all three classes are fully booked on my requested days.:{

[Re-Heat]

CO retaining the 763/764 flights plus adding an additional daily 752 to EWR! CO, being in the position that it is in...financial problems etc, wouldn't be flying to MAN if it wasn't profitable
I really don't think that is a viable comparison however, since airlines in the US have a history of introducing capacity to try to get a critical mass to make a profit (i.e. trying to get larger than their competitors to ensure they go bust). With the accrued losses in the US industry, I cannot view anything that Continetal do as something that should be followed by anyone!

Hubs are also hardly in favour any more - Heathrow is one simply as there is so little capacity to cater for business in the Southern area - people prefer to fly directly to their European destination from the US. To some extent lower costs result from dehubbing as lo-cos have.

Further they don't need to build a massive network if they are able to cherry-pick hugely profitable routes, which the Indian routes are. A next step would be Nigeria from LHR, again another highly regulated and restricted route with high fares and industry demand for travel.


PS - if there is no availablity to Vegas 6 months in advance, then someone is selling tickets too cheaply, or they have yet to release seats.

[concorde001]

"With the accrued losses in the US industry, I cannot view anything that Continetal do as something that should be followed by anyone!"

But surely CO must now have realised now that the strategy of 'BIG is better'' no-longer works - look at the state they are in. So I don't think they serve MAN just for the sake of it - they do so because thay can attract 2 million people in the North West to fly to New York and beyond by the use of their hub at EWR.
I've heard that CO does very well from MAN and BHX.

And with regards to Hubs - I don't think we'll see them end anytime soon. Look at AF - have you seen how much they rely on connecting passengers for some of their routes, rather most of their routes? Read my earlier post about LOS and DEL.

[concorde001]

Talking of MAN... does anyone know what percentage of the slots are still available at MAN?

[lexxity]

Re-heat I'm sorry to say this but, by any chance do you live down south and do you know anything about bmi?
As I have siad before how does it make sense to downgrade an aircraft on a route on which the cargo pays for the flight and any revenue is over and above that? How does that make any sense?
And as for selling seats too cheaply, do wake up, people DO NOT want to go through LHR to the west coast of the US, or anywhere to be honest, that is what is actually being discussed here and that is what BD should do.


Routes that are operated with regulatory constraints (India), therefore driving the price higher since the demand exceeds the capacity that is allowed (as with all of LHR with slot constraints).

35 pax on the inagural flight so far, yep good move that. What rubbish

[concorde001]

"people DO NOT want to go through LHR to the west coast of the US, or anywhere to be honest, that is what is actually being discussed here and that is what BD should do."

Here here lexxity!
I don't even live in Manchester...I live in London! Seriously though, bmi need to really consider MAN, and that doesn't mean they need to leave LHR - keep the slots at LHR and produce a schedule which includes Europe's main financial centres with high frequencies. ;)

"35 pax on the inagural flight so far, yep good move that. What rubbish"

See this is the problem.
Why would frequent flyers, especially business passengers want to fly an airline with only 4 weekly flights to BOM?
BMI doesn\'t have the frequencies whereas BA, AI do!
BA have daily flights and and in peak periods are allowed to operate Double daily.
AI, lets not even go there with the amount of flights to BOM they have.
VS already serves DEL daily, BOM 3 times a week (which is expected to increase)
Even though bmi is a member of Star, even that doesn\'t help.
UA directs its India bound passengers in FRA with LH who fly to BLR, DEL, BOM and other destinations.
Now had bmi had there main ops at MAN, things could be different. With the UK and India having another set of talks on increasing flights this year, its widely believed that flights will increase further. At LHR, bmi will only be able to serve these destinations if they sacrifice other routes to get the slots, whereas at MAN, there simply isn\'t this problem. I think the CAA would probably be more favourable to BMI when allocating flights if they were based at MAN!;)

[lexxity]

Thank you concorde001, the feeling at man is that the longhauls are being shafted at the expense of low frequency LHR routes. Please write to what the heck is going on at bd, donington hall,................
It's a damn shame as our frequent flyers tell us often enough, please BD expand at MAN, you've got the pax from all over the North and Midlands of Engalnd, we take a lot of inbounds from BHD/BFS and also a lot from Scotland if that isn't enough to fill those a/c then I don't know what is.
:ugh:

[concorde001]

Couldn't agree more ;)!

[pwalhx]

Concorde

Thanks for your comments on my post.

I would just like to point out I wasn't suggesting BA as an option for a hub now, merely pointing out they had operated more long haul in the past.

Secondly on the point of OK, I think you will find PIA operating with traffic rights to the US from Manchester, so I would venture to suggest that non British airlines can operate these routes.

[no, no, no]

I think one of the things people have to remember is, although there are big markets to be served out of MAN, MAN just doesn't attract the sort of local traffic that London or Paris does, and people travelling just A-B always pay more in ratio per flight. Connecting passengers split their fare over two flights. London not only has this local element, but also the huge business market - take New York for example, huge demand for business and first from London, but then it has the finance, stock markets, IT and major corporate type links to keep them occupied. Compare the business loads (and yields) on BA's MAN-JFK versus LHR-JFK (7 or 8 versus 1 flight) and here lies the answer.

Also, carriers can make something work of MAN like CO, EK etc, but these are already adopting a hubbing strategy, but out of their own hubs. How much traffic on MAN-DXB actually goes to DXB? I would imagine a large amount goes beyond to other places in the Middle East, Asis and Australia. If a British Airline flew then they would only be able to offer DXB.

But yes there are opportunties, and I think MAN is doing really well for itself, but I think people have to remember that Manchester is not London and that true comparisons between them can not really be made.

[Re-Heat]

Concorde - I agree - slot availability information would be interesting.

Lexxity; I would agree with no,no,no on what is said, but not because I am from the South, but because of the structure of Manchester vs London. Believe me I would - if I could - avoid such a bombsite as London airports if I could as a passenger!

If bmi were to go for the high-frequency flights to financial centres, then I could see that working well for them - however they are not allowed to fly to Frankfurt under their Lufthansa agreement, and both Paris and Frankfurt are severely slot-constrained.

Can they get any more flights to Madrid, Zurich, Geneva and Milan, or would that cost too much margin on the other routes they fly to transfer to those routes? I assume whoever makes the decisions knows.

[concorde001]

But if EK and CO are using MAN to draw passengers into their respective hubs for connections, why can't BMI do the same at MAN?
Let me explain...
MAN could have a distinct advantage over LHR if BMI bought slots to serve the regions of the UK and Europe.
For example, if you lived near Cardiff and wanted to fly to NYC or Hong Kong, at the moment you have to drive to LHR to get a flight. If BMI flew to Cardiff from MAN offering connections onward to destinations accross the world, then BMI could benefit greatly! BMI could fly to Exeter, Southampton, Bournemouth, Newquay and other destinations not served from Heathrow to allow passengers to connect!
So, it doesn't have to be only A to B traffic!
Air France flights from LHR and the US have a huge amount of passengers which are only connecting in CDG. I agree MAN could not have as a big a operation as CDG because Paris is a more of an important city, but I see no reason why the basic format couldn't work at MAN.