Cancelled VS LHR-JNB ...

[FarTooManyUsers]

Anybody know why Saturday's flight (which stopped in Tunis to offload a sick passenger, and returned to LHR) didn't pick up a fresh crew and fly to JNB ??

The passengers stranded in JNB who were due to fly on Sunday are on the verge of mutiny, with Police escorting Virgin staff around the terminal ...

[A300Man-2005]

Really? Mutiny? Seems a bit excessive, surely. This type of operational thing happens all the time, I would have thought.

[Rainboe]

Well without knowing anyhting about this, there aren't normally 'standby' crews lying around in such profusion- disruptions happen. The passengers in JNB had better learn that disruptions happen or aeroplanes are just machines that can break down. In this case the disruption appears to be because of humanitarian reasons.

[Human Factor]

I would imagine that crew hours would have prevented them continuing to Joburg. The sensible thing would be to return to the UK rather than have a crew, a jet and a few hundred passengers stuck in a random country. Like everyone else, I would be surprised if VS had full standby crews available at the drop of a hat.

[Leezyjet]

"The passengers stranded in JNB who were due to fly on Sunday are on the verge of mutiny, with Police escorting Virgin staff around the terminal ..."

What utter rubbish.

I was trying to get home from JNB on VS on both Sat and Sun night and saw no such thing. Sure the pax on Sunday were a little annoyed, but there were no more Police in the Terminal than normal.

Most pax were accomodated on other airlines via here there and everywhere, making staff travel back to the UK extremely hard, :ugh: :uhoh: and the rest were put up in hotels and re booked the next night onto the A340-600 that was sent down.

:)

[FarTooManyUsers]

The near mutiny was reported as ocurring on Monday evening when the cancelled flight passengers had been there 24 hours and that evening's VS flight, and most other airlines were fully booked so virtually the whole plane load was facing a 48 hour delay.

I was told that no extra plane was sent down ...

My eye-witness has just been put on a Frankfurt flight - don't know how many are still stranded ...

[mini]

Mutiny is probably a bit strong...

Majority of pax don't understand the fine print & details of crew hours etc, they buy a ticket & expect to be shifted, flights are booked, follow on schedules are set etc etc, not suprised if the odd punter gets upset when this kind of thing happens.

Give me cargo anyday...

[Rainboe]

On a Barbados, Antigua LHR duty, we found engine damage when we landed at Antigua (bent fan blades)- I knew not to go on on 3! Most pax went to boarding lounge to wait. Delay whilst conference with London took place about engine. I knew it was bust. Went in to explain to pax. I was surrounded by a jabbering lot. There was the usual Lawyer ("I will start an action against BA- I am a friend of Sir Colin!"), the hysterical Mum must get back to her children ("you are not telling us everything!"- "WHAT! I know nothing myself!"). The woman who was obviously smoking something "when can the standby aeroplane get here?"- "WELL Madam, it's circling over Cuba now with a full crew onboard and will be here in a jiffy!" As the delay dragged awaiting confirmation is was broke, it was an awful experience being at the mercy of this braying crowd all jabbing their fingers at me, all desperate to get home. I was struck by how fine people plan their lives- the woman with all the kids being looked after at home HAD to get back because there was a 20 minute window to take over babysitting from her mother before Mum went on her own holiday.
People don't realise aeroplanes are just machines that can and do go wrong, people fall sick inflight and aeroplanes need to divert, and if you get to your destination with 24 hours you are indeed lucky!

Nice night in the Jolly Beach!

[Big Tudor]

With most unscheduled long-haul departures you can forget about standby crew to operate. It is unlikely they would have the hours to go that far. Bear in mind that the a/c had operated LHR-TUNIS and back, probably arriving early hours of the morning. Any standby crew for the JNB would have been planned to cover the scheduled departure, not to provide cover for unplanned med emergencies. And departures from the UK in the early hours of the morning do not give the crew a lot of hours to play with.

[sinala1]

Bear in mind that the a/c had operated LHR-TUNIS and back, probably arriving early hours of the morning.
Around 0945 or so to be exact - and our pax were not terribly impressed! I was (cabin) crewing said flight, suffice to say it was an interesting experience... :sad:

[PAXboy]

'Mutiny' is completely the wrong word. mutiny· n. (pl. mutinies) an open rebellion against the proper authorities, especially by soldiers or sailors against their officers.

An airline is not a 'proper authority', merely a company that offer transportation services. Regrettably, the marketing people have done a fine job on convincing people of the regular service that they offer and the manufacturers and engineers have done a too fine a job of making sure that a/c are reliable and that continues all the way through the many staff involved in getting each machine safely to it's destination.

The information that should have be relayed to waiting pax was: Virgin Atlantic have caused you all of this disruption to help save the life of one of their customers. If, on the next flight you become ill, please be assured that the airline will put your wellbeing in front of all those who are safely on the ground (be that London or Johannesburg) as well as their own financial well being. Now, go back to your hotels and enjoy your lives. They should be told this, on the hour, every hour. In fact, wake them during the night to tell them again. :hmm:

[ou Trek dronkie]

Right on man,

I get the distinct feeling you know what you are talking about.

Andrew: "Mutiny " ? puuuulleezzze.

The oTd sommer shakes his old head, wondering aloud : "Are I also on the verge of mutiny" ???

So why did Virgin not brief the pax ? Maybe they didn't know anyway.

Bet the guy who woke up in the Tunis General didn't conmplain !!"


So you really think Virgin has a standby crew waiting for a call-out in Tunis ?

Amazing, amazing.

Tired ou Donker

[Irish Steve]

Regrettably, the marketing people have done a fine job on convincing people of the regular service that they offer and the manufacturers and engineers have done a too fine a job of making sure that a/c are reliable and that continues all the way through the many staff involved in getting each machine safely to it's destination.

And, to make it worse, having done so well, no one is prepared to state anywhere in print that occasionally, it WILL go pear shaped, THROUGH NO FAULT OF THE AIRLINE, and when it does, it cannot be fixed instantly.

I do not work for Virgin, and I have no professional or other links to Virgin

Here is the curse.

INSTANTLY, because unfortunately, for whatever reason, Joe Public has been spoon fed for way too long on INSTANT gratification of just about anything Joe Public wants, and when he can't have INSTANT gratification, he's then been only too well fed by the ambulance chasing legal morons into demanding that SOMEONE put right instantly what's gone wrong, OR ELSE!

B:mad:ks, total B:mad:ks, and the sooner that some real education takes place, along the lines of "remember when you might have to wait a week at Shannon, and make 4 or 5 12 hour round trips in lousy weather, half way across the Atlantic before getting to New York?

Well, we've improved on that by orders of magnitude. but even now, there are times when despite the best efforts of a whole team of people, it will not happen exactly the way you expected, and to make it worse, it's NOT our fault, so we can't be blamed, or held responsible for it.

That is a harsh, real fact of this every day real time experience called life that some people want to try and sanitise so much that it's not life any more. It can't be done. Live with it!

Now, there are times when it's so crazy, if the aircraft is 10 minutes later than the time that was on the screen before it even took off, people complain that it's late, and then DEMAND compensation!!!

Some of it is down to the crazy marketing people, some of it is down to the crazy world that's now expecting the impossible all of the time, some of it it down to the world not being prepared to plan with alternatives so that if plan A fails, there IS a plan B.

As someone has just said, the real answer was for a very clear announcement to be made, along the lines of "We're very sorry, but the life of a passenger took precendence over arriving within 90 seconds of the expected time, and while miracles do occasionally happen, it's now going to take time for us to get everyone where they should have been. It's no one's fault, (unless the sick passenger should never even have boarded, and that's a thought/ thread for someone else to take up), now, we're doing the best we can, as quickly as possible, and within the myriad of sometimes restrictive rules that are there to protect your safety, to solve the problems that have been caused.

If people are not happy with that, then maybe there needs to be changes in the rules that cover this so that they can be told, VERY firmly, if you don't like our rules, there's the door, goodbye!

Hard? Maybe. Honest, probably yes, Fair, yes, unaaceptable to some of the modern morons, Tough, but so's life, there are some things that you can't insure or plan for, and saving a life had better damn well remain one of them for a long time to come.

I dread the day when a passenger dies because there were too many people on board that might sue because they have just missed the latest episode of Coronation Street or East Enders, or they can't get home in time to go to the pub for a couple of pints before they close tonight. If that's how shallow and mean our society is becoming, and in some areas, it is, we're in DEEP trouble, and yes, if that's the sort of level we're sinking to, it's absolutely and totally scary.

[PAXboy]

Dankie ou Trek! I've spent 40 years a-paxing. My grandfather was RFC + civil aviation in the 20s + 30s (he was a close friend of Kingsford-Smith). My father was RAF and my nephew is a commercial pilot in ZA. I follow the industry as an interested party and fairly regular paxer, although less so these days as I am now in a different line of work.

If VS got the pax information wrong, then they only have themselves to blame for people shouting their head off in the terminal building.

If VS allowed an unwell person on board, they have only themselves to blame. I do hope that they follow up the case of the person and learn what was wrong with them, DID they recover, WERE they seriously ill and COULD they have spotted it before boarding.

Now it's time to take another dop and lekker slaap.
:zzz:

[Spitfire78]

Uhm.... stupid question from a semi-regular jnb-lhr pax...

Given that Tunis is at the northern tip of Africa, what would have stopped the plane/crew from being able to (refuel and) take off, but proceed to jnb instead of turn around? I'm not criticising anyone's decision/practice/policy, just curious...

(incidentally, I left in JNB on sunday night on BA - must say the VS counters looked busy!!)

SF78

[flyingbee]

http://www.v-flyer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5175

This thread on V-Flyer started by somebody working in VAA flight ops explains that the LHR-JNB diversion was just one flight that didn't operate as expected that night. :sad:

flyingbee

[Right Way Up]

I have no info on this particular flight, but can give you a few ideas about what might have held them up.
1) Arrival at Tunis must have been roughly at 0000-0100 UTC. Probably very little ground handling to deal with them.
2) Trying to get flight plans through to Tunis might have been difficult.
3) As soon as they landed at Tunis they were now on a 2 sector day so potentially less hours available. With any delay due to the above crew would have been out of hours.
The only question I would have about the situation is was there a standby crew the next morning. The fact that the aircraft has a long layover in JNB a new crew could have departed at say 1200 from LHR and would only have delayed the return flight by say 4 hours. I very much doubt that there could have been a standby crew even the next morning, as I am sure Ops would have preferred to keep the operation going, much less hassle involved!

[krobar]

Heard an interresting story of pax dying on a flight of an nolongeroperating airline, where a pax died on board en-route to jhb from abijan.
After 5 hours in flight, turned around returned to abj, found engine prob on aircraft engine, deboarded pax, and allowed them to board again after spending 30 hours waiting inside abijan international departures. I'd say a sleepover in Jhb is really not the worst thing that could happen to a pax.

[frangatang]

Everyone forgets it WAS virgin, so what do you expect from a banana republic airline. Back up?? You have to be joking.

[Rainboe]

I don't work for Virgin, but I have to say some of the comments here are unbelievable from so-called intelligent people! I have to say they are quite moronic! Virgin is a respectable British company operating an effective airline service- what is your problem? A humanitarian diversion, cancellation because of lack of crew and inability to mount an effective (and useful) short notice operation. Airlines run to something like 98%+ reliability, disruptions happen with any transport system. Can you imagine the costs of having complete crews lying around ALL day, EVERY day, for EVERY type, doing nothing, just waiting for the rare disruption here? Do YOU want to finance that in EACH ticket, EVERY ticket?

Somehow an innocuous news item brings out these bitter or jealous individuals with lifelong axes to grind! Save us all your grief!

(Edited to remove reference to Paxboy)

[A300Man-2005]

Why is Virgin Atlantic a "banana republic airline"? I am lost on that one.

There was an inflight emergency, and the aircraft and crew proceeded to do everything within the limits of safety and practicality. This is normal, airline every day stuff. Not even newsworthy.

Why is everyone having a go????????

[groundbum]

if economics were ignored, would the best solution for the passengers have been to try and find a charter plane from JNB to Tunis, taking the passengers with it, then picking up the Tunis people and returning to JNB? The crew stuck in JNB would have been rested and returned to LHR later that day with the JNB passengers? The charter may not take 100% of the passengers, but it could be assumed some people could travel on other carriers..

But I would imagine this would cost the airline real external money to a charter company, whereas what happened in this case doesn't cost any real money, just vouchers, goodwill, staff time and things.

[Rainboe]

One of the problems with these incidents is the profusion of daft ideas that surface. What would the passengers do for 24+ hours in Tunis waiting for a charter aeroplane the right size to be found and negotiated for? They are not exactly lying around waiting for charter like taxys! If they are, they are going to cost big time- someone has to pay for those aeroplanes and crews lying around vacantly waiting for incidents like this! Then add flight time, and your idea is kicked into touch. Then the drama of unloading and loading charter aeroplane and Virgin aeroplane at a place that for all we know doesn't have the right equipment, and possibly a nosy customs!

But carry on thinking it is all a money saving operation out to inconvenience the human race- it is a shame to spoil your beliefs!

[FarTooManyUsers]

Whilst most people realise that operations do go awry from time to time, what really irked the pax was that no solution was forthcoming from VS - whilst an instant replacement aircraft was unrealisteic, there was no hope of ever getting a replacement flight ... Alan's post on v-flyer confirms that VS have no spare/slack ... some passengers were told it might be a week before they got back to LHR (considering all the other post-holiday flights were already full) - surely that is unreasonable ?

The other big problem was the Sunday's pax were told that they were confirmed on the following evening's flight (despite it already being full) - presumably delayed pax are not normally given priority and they should not have been told they would ??

[Rainboe]

People are convinced there is instantly a full back up plan available immediately. They assume the staff handling a situation there and then know what is going on and what is going to happen. It takes main base many hours to go through options and try any recovery plans people come up with. The staff just don't know! People want information now! Aeroplanes can't be magiced up out of nowhere. Extra services can't always be laid on just like that- I don't know what the situation at LHR was- that flight had already left that night. The next nights would leave 24 hours later. Can an 'extra' flight suddenly be put on again next day to operate that flight again? Daytime slots aren't 2 a penny at LHR.

[MarkD]

This is the upshot of the LCC revolution - spare aircraft/crew are deemed "slack" and cut by the beancounters to save $$$. People thought cheap air travel was a free lunch but it's not, not at VS or anywhere else.

[Human Factor]

If VS allowed an unwell person on board, they have only themselves to blame.

Has it occurred to you that sometimes people are fit when they board and fall ill during the flight? :rolleyes:

I don't work for VS, actually for their main competition. ;) Suffice to say that describing VS as a "Banana Republic Airline" is a bit much. A friend of mine was flight crew on one of our aircraft a few months ago which had a similar incident, although I think they went into BCN. Anyway, by the time you get the paperwork sorted out, slots, refiling, refuelling, etc. out of the way, time passes. A two sector trip in the middle of the night is somewhat restrictive in terms of hours. The fastest turnround I have seen on an unscheduled diversion (me, to an ETOPS alternate with a medical emergency, in fact) was two and a half hours for a 777. Two and a half hours makes a big difference in the middle of a night.

Just explain to me exactly which airlines have standby aircraft crewed and ready to go at a moment's notice to anywhere in the world? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please. ;)

Speaking for BA, because we have a large fleet, we have the capability to get a spare aircraft out if need be, although we have exactly the same crewing issues as everyone else.

[sammypilot]

Hang about Humon Factor. It is not so many months back that BA were cancelling flights left, right and centre through crewing problems, particulary cabin crew. I don't remember Virgin ever suffering such a problem, probably because they have an enlightened attitude to staff relations.

Given a choice, I would take the Banana Republic Airline, Virgin, against most other airlines in the world.

[Human Factor]

...although we have exactly the same crewing issues as everyone else.

ie. We can't get hold of them just like that. RTFQ. :hmm:

[Sultan Ismail]

Joburg was not the place to be on Monday

And I didn't even know about the Virgin flight. I checked in at midday on Monday for the 1.40pm flight to Kuala Lumpur (KL) to find the departure had been rescheduled for 8.30pm which eventually became 10.20pm.

Malaysian offered the use of the 'Inn across the road until 6.00pm but I preferred the Baobab lounge. I became aware that another lounge lizard was sitting through the departures of other pax. He had come up from George to connect with SA 234 to LHR, but the connection went pear shaped and he was rebooked on SA 236 at 9.00pm.

To cut to the chase, 9.00pm became 10.00pm and just as I left it became 8.00am and would he like a night in the hotel.

The best part for me was a daylight flight over the Indian Ocean, over Sumatra and then into a fine KL at 34C, eat your heart out Blighty.

The cause of my flight delay is well documented in the Far East Forum.

[PAXboy]

My word, I seem to have struck a record of three people criticising me incorrectly in one day!

frangatang I think that you will find they have been going for over 20 years and in 2004 won awards that included Business Travel Awards: Best Long Haul Business Airline. No, I do not work for them and never have. I have simply been a satisfied customer for 18 years.

Rainboe "Paxboy, the previous post- what is your problem?" Eer, since I was supporting the airline, I'm not sure what your problem is?

Human Factor "Has it occurred to you that sometimes people are fit when they board and fall ill during the flight?" Curiously it did occur to me!! That is why I wrote "If VS allowed an unwell person on board, they have only themselves to blame." But then, if you did not read my post closely enough, you would not have seen that.

[Rainboe]

You are quite correct- I read it the other way. My apology, and I have edited.

[PAXboy]

Thanks Rainboe, at some stage we all do that. I am sometimes half way through composing a thundering reply when I realise that I've misread!! Cheers.

[SQawk77]

Just arrived at this thread and got the flavour of the situation.
Accepting the information currently available, I can't quite understand why they weren't able to continue to JNB. The original duty time would have been in the region of 13hrs or so and with the max. duty time plus discretion the available duty time would have been in the region of 17 - 18 hrs. I would have thought that Grinning Pullover Airways would have expected them to do at least that.
Going back to the comments of 'Sammypilot', the reason why BA have occasional crewing problems and VS don't is that in VS, they are expected to operate (cabin crew wise) three down and often do! And to think we all thought slavery had been abolished...!
That's Sir Richard's ' enlightened attitude to staff relations'...

[Hotel Mode]

Allowable Cabin Crew FDP for a 2 sector operation with a post 1800 check in is 12hrs15, I think VS check in 90 mins before so duty starts at 1930 uk time, giving a latest arrival time in JNB of 0845 local which is actually 30 mins before the STA, (the 2nd sector knocks 45 mins off duty) Under normal circs the duty could be extended because crew will have 3hrs in bunks (the min for extension) But this wouldn't be possible with the shorther TUN-JNB flight time. You can add 3 hrs discretion to that, but that still only permits an absolute limit of 2 1/2 delay to arrival in JNB before the flight is totally illegal.

So with say an hour back from the tunrround point and the hour out of tunis to get back where you started it was a complete non starter. Flight crew would probably be less limiting than cabin crew due longer breaks.

I work for another UK based airline and i'm off to JNB tonight, some LH operations are very tight on duty time, had it been a return flight we would probably have got as far as we could and had a crew pax down to meet us but that cant be done out of JNB due lack of crew or suitable diversions

[Captain Airclues]

Hotel Mode

Flight Crew would probably be less limiting than cabin crew due longer breaks

I'm not sure that this is correct. The flight Crew initial limit for a 2 sector night is one hour less (11hrs15). I believe that VS operate this sector with three pilots therefore on the direct flight they would only get three hours rest each. Probably less than that after a diversion.
I agree with your other points. Even with the maximum extension, continuing to JNB would have been Virgin on legality.

Airclues

[Leezyjet]

SQawk77,

Even if VS did operate 3 cabin crew down, they would still have 1 more than KLM on the 744.

They also get compensated for the fact that they have to do more "work" when crew down, unlike the ground staff who can be 10-20 staff down on check-in and have to actually do more work with no compensation for it.


Andrew.Smith,

Sorry didn't realise you meant Monday night.

:)

[3Greens]

Yeah but they all got hotlines tickets as a nice reward for not taking another sickie over the bank holiday. You're not telling me that 10-20 people down isn't due largely to social sickness.

[skydriller]

How long does a diversion actually take? If the diversion is en-route, aircraft decends & lands, offload the sick pax and then takes off & Climbs back on route again... 2 1/2 Hrs was mentioned by Human Factor, is that the actual time on the ground or the total extra time of the trip. Surely if a Medical emergency, time is of great importance.

Dont want to bash Virgin, genuinely interested in the hassle involved in general as well as for this case if the same crew were to continue on the route.

Regards, SD..

[Rainboe]

You say you're an 'engineer'! I can't believe you made such a naive, unthinking posting. It would have had to refuel to continue. It may have had to fly back to Tunis- the fuel uplift may have been substantial....at an unsocial time with maybe no fueller present, and someone having to pay a lot of money for it. No staff available to meet the aeroplane and handle the sick passenger- Immigration having to get involved and allow the person in, Security taking an interest, Customs wondering over to see what's going on. Are you going to dump the unwell person in the terminal (if you can get in)? How about getting a taxi/ambulance- who is going to pay- who is going to sort out medical costs? The hospital is going to want paying, and know who and how. Maybe problems handling a Flight Plan in the middle of the night- all with little or absolutely no handling staff available- then engineering staff, someone to take the Tech Log sheet, someone to handle the new loadsheet, new fuel plan please.................

If the diversion is en-route, aircraft decends & lands, offload the sick pax and then takes off & Climbs back on route again.......Ha Ha Ha!

[slim_slag]

I've been on a 744 which they decided wasn't well enough to go to LAX when doing some checks on the taxy out at LHR. Went back to terminal, everybody off, £10 vouchers for economy PAX, rest to the lounge. Cannot have been more than 4 hours later we were on another 744 with new crew and on the way to LAX.

Remember it well as we came into LAX over the ocean for noise abatement, pilots seemed very chuffed about that landing, said on the intercom it was very rare, wouldn't shut up about it in fact :)

So getting a new 744 and crew at LHR can be done, was a long time ago, at least five years.

[skydriller]

Rainboe, Just wind your neck in abit mate.....

Im an Directional Drilling Engineer in the Oil industry and know about as much about your operational problems at work when the unexpected happens as you do mine...ie very little. Im just a pax with a humble PPL and do appreciate diverting an airliner is just a wee little bit more complex than when in a puddlejumper/spamcan (that was sarcasm too), which is the reason why I asked.

I wanted to know how complicated it is to have to do a diversion.
And you have told me. Thanks for the information - it IS appreciated.

Is the crew expected to sort ALL of that by themselves? Surely there is backup from the airline and those on the ground at the divert point.

I do admit to naivety in thinking that some of the things you mentioned I assumed would be available on a 24/7 basis at the sort of airport a large airliner would consider diverting to.

Regards, SD..

[EGCC4284]

3Greens please check your PM

[etrang]

On a Barbados, Antigua LHR duty, we found engine damage when we landed at Antigua (bent fan blades)- I knew not to go on on 3!

LOL.

Now you just have to work on that anger management.