A call to Geoffrey Thomas/Aviation journalists

[Three Bars]

Dear Geoffrey Thomas/aviation journalists,

After reading through most of the Qantaslink pay for endorsement thread, why is it that you (or your colleagues) have not addressed this subject in a major article for the major newspapers.

Aviation still seems to be treated as a "Wow, look at all these shiny planes ... isn't it an exciting industry .... lots of overseas travel" type story by you guys.

How about a real article about the plight of wannabe pilots in this country and how much they have to look at paying to crack a job in the industry now? Or paying for interviews/medicals/simulator selection flights? Or paying an operator to use their aircraft to get your own hours up? Recent articles have hinted at a looming skills shortage, but how about a look into why the shortage is looming? Is there a fear amongst aviation journalists of what a real story like this would do to flying training and GA in Australia?

As a result of 89, a lot of people in this country still think that airline pilots are all millionaires with a country house. But put these punters into the back of an aeroplane that has a minor problem and it's "we thought we were going to die ... we nearly went vertical .... " They want to pay rock-bottom fares (with concurrent rock-bottom wages to get them) until it's their ass on the plane.

So I set you guys a challenge... How about a real story on the aviation scene and piloting in this country. There is surely plenty of material to draw from on this site for ideas!

What do you reckon?????

[Don Esson]

This could be turned against pilots if not carefully considered. After all, why should an airline spend thousands of dollars training a pilot to operate a particular aircraft type to then find that after a short time that person buggers off to another employer who just happens to offer better terms?

To suggest that pilots not pay for their training is a big mistake. How much does it cost a doctor, dentist, solicitor, architect , accountant etc. to receive his or her training traiuning? How long does it take them to earn top dollar?

Pliots need to get a grip on reality. Airlines are no longer run by entrepeneurial pilots as though they are glorified aero clubs. Those days are, thank God, behind us with airlines now being cut throat businesses. The people that now run these businesses are hard headed people out to make a dollar, not a charity to assist pilots receive their training and then hold the world to ransom. For that reason alone, pilots and aspiring pilots will have to eventually realise that they have to take financial responsibility for the acquisition of their skills.

[Howard Hughes]

Don,

After all, why should an airline spend thousands of dollars training a pilot to operate a particular aircraft type to then find that after a short time that person buggers off to another employer who just happens to offer better terms?

Easy, the airline just has to be the one that provides the best terms, people would then not leave on that basis.

How much does it cost a doctor, dentist, solicitor, architect , accountant etc. to receive his or her training training? How long does it take them to earn top dollar?

For most of these upper echelon proffesions it takes 7-9 years to earn top dollar. Sadly most pilot's never have that opportunity I also have a friend, who when he graduated as an accountant went straight into a position which pays around $30000 a year more than my regional turboprop captain gig.

For many professions (law, accountancy, some medical/science), major companies employ students before they have graduated. They provide funding for education, accomodation and some spending money on the side. This never has happened in aviation, nor will it! It is impossible to compare pilots with these other professions.

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[slice]

How much does it cost a doctor, dentist, solicitor, architect , accountant etc. to receive his or her training

Answer : In terms of personal outlay Sweet F..K ALL

For those professions virtually all of the cost of training is advanced to the student through HECS. It is repaid through the tax system but only once the doctor/dentist/lawyer/architect is earning a fair income (approx 24~25 k). They more they earn, the higher rate at which it is paid back. All in all a very equitable system to my mind. Numbers of such students are also kept at a sensible level through the controls on numbers in the tertiary system - supply more closely matching demand (although I have heard of large numbers of law students being unable to obtain employment in the legal arena). Not too many umemployed doctors or accountants out there:=

[Buster Hyman]

why is it that you (or your colleagues) have not addressed this subject in a major article for the major newspapers.
Apart from an Aviation related publication, do you really think that such an article would sell more papers? The "shiny new plane" stories always get a run because they show off a "good image" of the airline in question. The average punter probably doesn't want to know that the two up front are in dispute with their company over pay & conditions. I think they'd be happy to be oblivious of such things.

I think the reason that you don't see graduate programs for pilots is basically supply & demand, as mentioned earlier. There just aren't that many positions to go around that would justify such a program. Don't get me wrong, there are aviation related disciplines that can provide a lead in to the industry (Kangan Batman TAFE near me for example), but I'd like to see how many students actually find a career within the industry.:ok:

[Three Bars]

Buster,

My point is that Geoffrey Thomas is an aviation journalist who writes articles for the major papers (not a special interest publication) - but the issues that get raised here don't seem to rate a mention in the newspapers. There is more to aviation than shiny planes and exciting new air routes.

I think the public perception of pilots is that they are onto a goldmine in the airlines. The great unwashed may get a different view if they read the real situation for prospective pilots these days in the "economic rationalist" environment.

[Oz Ocker]

Mate, 'ow many plumbers, chippies, sparkies, or journos ave their training paid?
If I'm a builder's labourer an I wanna qualify as a builder who do ya reckon pays for it?
If I was a Knockabout Joe who wanted ta be a bus or truck driver, who do ya reckons gunna pay for the lessons?

Flyin is still seen as somethin for people who've got too much money. The average bloke an shiela takes a bus or train.

All pilots are regarded as Silvertails, makin easy money buzzin around in the sky all day, not doin any physical hard work.
Don't matter that just about evry other skilled labour earns a sheetload more than most pilots ever dream of.

THAT would probly be a better one to start with - how much ya fork out for yer trainin, and the lousy salries ya get paid.
Most folks probly woulden believe it.

[apache]

The average punter probably doesn't want to know that the two up front are in dispute with their company over pay & conditions.

Well I really don't give a rats @rse that teachers can go on strike and get 30%, that bus drivers- represented by a proper union - can get a decent amount in their EBA renegotiations.
It also gives me the sh!ts to see politicians get exorbitant amounts of super cos "their job is not secure" ... try telling a pilot that their job is "secure"... that Police need more money cos their lives are in danger everyday! yet we pilots have to now fork out ANOTHER $200 for a licence which will save our lives!!

YET... these issues make headline news, and pull at the heartstrings of society's gullible.

Why is it that EVERY other industry :
a/ is properly represented by unions
b/ attracts media attention the the plight of their terms and conditions
c/doesn't have the intense checking program every 3-6 months just to KEEP our present jobs.
d/has the employer pay for new ratings and licences as required by law

just to name a few ?

and now you think that the plight of a MAJOR TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE in modern society is not newsworthy ???

[Sunfish]

"The floggings will continue until morale improves" seems like airline management strategy at the moment.

Judging by the posts on this and other forums, it appears that airine management is engaged in a race to the bottom.

Nobody appears to be investing in staff training. There is an assumption that staff can be expected to pay for their own training or ratings.

There is an assumption that Asian workforces can be used to cut costs through outsourcing.

There is an assumption that pilots, engineers and flight attendants are overpaid and underworked.

There is an assumption that there is an inexhaustible stream of good quality recruits just waiting to get their hands on a jet. Therefore staff are replaceable.

The size of the cashflows in RPT aviation together with profit related bonus schemes for senior management make it very tempting to test each of the above assumptions.

However, my take on it (from a safe distance) is as follows.

Forcing staff to pay for training or ratings removes any moral or ethical connection between the employer and employee. In effect the airline is saying "we are not going to invest in you" which is tantamount to saying "You don't matter, your recognition is your monthly paycheck."

The downside of this is the risk of more employee turnover. Furthermore recruiting staff DOES cost big money, yet the cost burden has been shifted from the bonus conscious operational side to the administrative costs side.

Then there is the assumption that pilots, engineers and flight attendants are underworked and overpaid.

That is going to be tested in the most unethical and downright illegal manner by killing passengers.

The first crash involving a chain of pilot fatigue, engineering defects and botched cabin crew procedures will be blamed on the staff concerned.

So will the second one.

It will only be after the third one where it becomes obvious from a royal commission that the workloads and expectations are just too high, and the safety margins are just too low, that change will begin - however the managers responsible for the crash, who cut things to the bone, will have long since taken their cash bonuses and left.

You think I'm joking Possums? Consider this: just suppose Ansett had had a little more cash, that a certain engineer
had been on a bonus scheme and had shut up about a missed AD, and the regulator (CASA) had been just a little more tolerant? Just imagine that AN had been able to soldier on for another six months, while the cracks in the pylons and tailplane bracketry got bigger?

Have you read the report about AN's maintenance system and the defects in those 767's?

How about separation of an engine or, worse still the tail?

Finally there is the assumption that Asian workforces are going to save big money? Exactly how? For my money, I have yet to be convinced that when the demands of a maintenance system meet an Asian culture head on, that the maintenance system is going to win.

Thats what annoys me. Cost cutting is going to only end one way - with a lot of people dead.

[Buster Hyman]

Three Bars.

My point is that Geoffrey Thomas also writes for ATW & AA.

Don't think that I'm disagreeing about the validity of your question. (apache take note!) On the contrary, you have as much right as the next industry to get air time for your grievances. I'm just saying that the average punter probably still sees aviation as a "mystery" and does think that pilots are exorbitantly paid. An industrial dispute...dare I go there...will probably get lumped in the same category as Pollies getting a pay rise.

Now, to apache's questions;

a/ Isn't that up to you & your colleagues?
b/ See (a)
c/ Perhaps the question should be Why haven't other similarly responsible industries adopted a practice like this?
c/ Don't know. Resolve (a) and find out.

now you think that the plight of a MAJOR TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE in modern society is not newsworthy ???
No. I didn't say it wasn't...:rolleyes:...I'm saying that your average newspaper wouldn't. Fog closing an airport, for example, might get a run on the evening news but it'd never lead it. Train cancellations & shutdowns would lead though.

If I didn't think it was newsworthy, I wouldn't have responded to the thread.

[victor two]

It just ain't going to happen. Nobody cares what pilot's might pay to get their quals just like you couldn't care what a low salary plumber earns during his 4 year apprenticeship.
Why should the public care about that? Nothing to do with them, has no effect on them. Nobody cares. I'll say it again, nobody cares about your pay packets or ongoing expenses.

Call up A Current Affair or sixty minutes and bleat to them that you are a wannabe airline pilot and you feel it is a national disgrace that you have to fund your own profession and see what they say to you.

There is no story there, the journos know the lay of the industry, just like you knew when you fell for it to so live with it or get out of it. Go get a fully refunded cheap medical degree and make a few million putting in firm plastic hooters or something else worthwhile.

Pretty simple stuff really.

[Y0DA]

Seriously people, any deadsh!t with a fat bank account and 3 mates in an airline can get one of these gigs. Time to stop the old drawn out 'look what doctors, accountants, lawyers get' line.

It is rediculous that some guy as a second officer on a 747 gets some $100000 a year just to nod his/her head.

Sure there are many things that the pilot has to get right but as a whole, there is way too much wastage. If a reporter was to dig real deep, I am sure that they could paint a nasty picture to the public as my paragraph above.

Persons here wave their arms at people taking jobs for less money than 'the norm' and call them all sorts of names (usually catch cries that will be edited). Unfortunately parts of the norm are so out of the real world it is disgraceful.

Plead to the media all you want. I feel that it will do more harm than good. What is needed is a serious Union with unity amongst all pilot groups. Unfortunately those with the most to lose are the least willing to open up to such an idea. If a bunch of knucklehead truck drivers/bus drivers/wharfies/etc can get stuff done, why can't pilots?

[Ultralights]

If a bunch of knucklehead truck drivers/bus drivers/wharfies/etc can get stuff done, why can't pilots?

because they have a good solid union! and also, if they go on strike for just 1 day, the entire nation grinds to a stop. everything from coal to the shipyards to cds in the record stores! and not to mention inter business logistics.

you need 1 Union covering all Pilots! and when 1 has an issue, so do all!

one thing i have learnt in the transport game (road) is that any driver that undercuts another to get a job! that will be his LAST job. good drivers get the good $$ because they are dependable, and quick, bad drivers dont last in the game more than a month or 2 before word spreads of their reputation.
a good driver, with his own B2 (B double) can earn up to $80,000 PER WEEK!

The attitude amongst drivers and owners is one of good honest mateship . everyone helps everyone in any way they can.

if only pilots could learn something from your average truckie!

[Frickman]

Unfortunately current affairs programs are only interested in hard hitting stories like "little old lady loses life savings to slick conman" and "how much are you really paying for electricity/water /pizza". So you can see straight away that our crumbling industry isn't worth mention...

[Shazzamed]

The only reason nobody in the aviation industry speaks up is because if any potential employer(s) find out ............You will never be employed in Aviation again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simple.

And whoever the idiot is that said pilots get paid to much to do nothing.......Your an IDIOT!!!

[Ultralights]

i guess thats where it differs from the truckies, if one driver speaks up about an employer, then other drivers will refuse to work for said employer! and if some do, they will find their working environment very chilly and difficult.


Im sure some have seen the story on 9 this evening, about 90% of drivers on drugs, .............. but prove it! and i can guarentee that not 1 driver will speak up.

and not only that, the pressure is now on to stop alledged drug taking, but the pressure is on the companies issueing the contracts! not the drivers or trucking companies!


could you imagine such solidarity within the pilot community?

[geoffrey thomas]

Three Bars...Sorry for the delay in replying. You raise a very good point as have your colleagues on this thread. I am onto to it and will look at a story in AA for Contrails. I will also discuss with the Australian.
Best GT

[Three Bars]

GT,

Thanks for your reply - I look forward to your article(s) with great interest.

All of this pay for your endorsement stuff could make the military a very good option in the future. Within four years, military pilots will be able to fly the 737 (VIP, AEW&C and maritime?) and the A330 (tanker).

And it would probably pay better than Jetstar, Rex and Qantaslink.

[AnQrKa]

Howard Hughs,

"Easy, the airline just has to be the one that provides the best terms, people would then not leave on that basis”

This comparative advantage will only work for one carrier, how do the remaining 19 carriers retain staff according to your theory?

“this never has happened in aviation, nor will it! It is impossible to compare pilots with these other professions.”

Absolutely correct, there is no point in even attempting to compare jobs. Pilots would come out on top in many cases.

3 bars,

“I think the public perception of pilots is that they are onto a goldmine in the airlines. The great unwashed may get a different view if they read the real situation for prospective pilots these days in the "economic rationalist" environment”

Why on earth do you think there “is a public perception” and more importantly, why would you care. Would it make you feel all warm and fuzzy knowing that the public understand your plight and sympathize with your unfortunate lot in life?

Apache,

“try telling a pilot that their job is secure"

Job security is something that scares the majority of employees in Australia (and nearly everywhere else). Employment conditions in the Australian airline scene have changed since dereg but guess what; conditions have changed in most industries too. We are being governed by the most neo-con, right wing, anti employee, pro business government the country has seen in a long time. Sh!!!t happens.

Ultralights,

“can earn up to $80,000 PER WEEK”

Please let’s stick to some facts, please. This is utter nonsense. But if you want to stare at the white line for 18 hours straight, feel free to leave the airline industry and become a truckee. I bet you don’t.

[Three Bars]

AnQrKa,

The lack of any information on your profile makes it difficult for me to determine what angle you are coming from.

Since you seem to have missed my point, I'll restate it.

How about a real article about the plight of wannabe pilots in this country and how much they have to look at paying to crack a job in the industry now? Recent articles have hinted at a looming skills shortage, but how about a look into why the shortage is looming?

I feel that pilot employment in the airline industry has entered a new phase in this country. My comment about public perception is that, in the lack of a complete and concise analysis of entry level airline pilot requirements, the wannabe airline pilot may make a substantial financial outlay in pursuit of a career that will NEVER realise his/her financial and career aspirations.

I don't seek or care about public sympathy for my "plight". I merely think it important that propspective airline pilots enter the industry fully informed about what they may be confronted with financially.

If you want to make a constructive comment, how about you lose the 'tude?

[nicholas_hosties]

three bars
quote "I don't seek or care about public sympathy for my "plight". I merely think it important that propspective airline pilots enter the industry fully informed about what they may be confronted with financially."

If a person planning to enter an industry and has not covered all aspects of the profession then he should not complain about the conditions or go and do somthing else.

Why is it we try to put ourselves up on the old pedestal with other considered high professions, ie doctors etc. We are all but humans, doing a job, nothing special, other people in the community do jobs as well. aviation is just one of them.

The reason for these Illusions I understand go back to WW1 where nco pilots were given Officer status along with all the mess trimmings in payment for their life expectancy being about 1-2 weeks
I think you will find that the godly arrogant respect that we were given and not earned will continue to diminish over time.

To quote the Castle " get yer hand off it "

[Ultralights]

AnQrKa you missread my post, i said a driver, with his OWN truck. a 600hp rig capable of pulling a B2 will see you with little change from $500,000

the $80K job i have seen, moving Mining equip from Port Botany. its not common, but not uncommon either, on average, every tonne of capacity you can put on the road will earn you $1k per week.

i am coming from the point of OWNER/ driver. the owner of the vehicles gets the contracts, and then has to pay his employees otherwise known as drivers.

i OWN 3, 2 tonne vans. i have 6 tonnes capacity on the road every week. and thats about my weekly cheque. then i have to pay 2 other drivers etc.

the Point of my Post is that the trucking game is a very close nit group, who stick together to ensure each others financial and job security. weather you drive a 1 tonne Ute, of a 200 Tonne Road train! and that bad drivers/operators are quickly weeded out, and the good survive and prosper, but still do all they can to help others in the industry, there is no, "bugger the rest of you, im allright thanks jack" attitude.

and when things get tight, as the latest accusations of drivers using substances, the onus is not on the drivers/owners , but on the SUPPLIER of the cartage contracts...

now if only all pilots, from all levels can look look after each other and each others interests, regardless of rating or aircraft flown, then the pilots as a group will be a lot better off, and the companies providing you with employment will be forced to act justly and with reasonable conditions that reflect your importance in maintaining safety, and contribution to the company..

[Chris Higgins]

Ultralights, you raise an important issue regarding self regulation, and it, in turn raises a question about our own regulation.

Due to the fact that we are not able to self-regulate, it is necessary for us to face sky rocketing insurance premiums to make up for the Seaview Airs out there. Just as American operators have been asked to curtail pay for training programs by their insurance companies.

Once you see an aircraft like a EMB-145 snapped in two after a "training" flight, it will make you a believer that we are incapable of drawing a line on these things.

One thing that Australian Authorities used to be good at was learning from the mistakes of the Americas. Now it seems they are only good at repeating them, as is the case with standards on theory examination and flight crew testing through the bogus ATO system.

[sumtingwong]

nicholas_hosties:

Ok you say we are just doing another job. Fair enough!

So please provide a listing of other job's/industries where after qualification ie MD, LLB(BA law) 4 year apprentice chippy etc, the employee is required to pay for ratings or to purchase training on the equipment required for the 'average job'?
Doctors do not pay to practise their profession. Lawyers do not pay to practise their profession. Chippies, sparkies bus drivers, labourers, teachers, nurses, politicians, cab drivers, ships captains etc do NOT pay to practise their profession

Fair is fair tiger?

[FishHead]

3bars...

Call me biased, but anyone looking to join the military for the purpose of getting an endorsement on 737/A330 is going in with the wrong attitude. Particularly since your choice of aircraft type (post-Wings) is not really in your hands.
Be a shame to spend all that time dreaming about your airline salary prospects to find yourself posted to King Airs (no offence to the 32SQN folks)

FH