Identify this once-flying-object

[El Grifo]

A friend of mine photographed this whilst out hillwaking on the Cheviots recently.

It looks to me more like a rocket component than a missile component.

Any Clues.

I posted this previously on jetblast but no takers so far.

http://www.susie-wong.robrae.co.uk/object.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

I like the arrow. Very helpful. Is the 81-1 a date perhaps?

[2Old2Care]

Boba Fett's back-pack. So he did get away, then?:)

[BEagle]

It's the improbablity drive from a UFO, isn't it?

[Gainesy]

What size is it Grifo?

[adr]

Does it say "If found return to Prof. Quatermass, Spadeadam"? on the other side? :D

adr

[TEEEJ]

All I can think of is the tail end of an AS.11 / SS.11. This was a French developed anti-tank missile used by UK forces - at least in the AS.11 version.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/collections/missiles/missile_info.cfm?missile_id=1

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/ss11.htm

http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/aat/as11.html

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/collections/missiles/images/aerospatialeas11.jpg

[El Grifo]

Nice one guys I think we have identified the beast AS-11.

Quite how it ended up in the Cheviots behind Sourhope Farm is another matter.

Gainsey, it was a friend of mine who found and photographed it, so I am not really sure of the size, apart from the rough estimate he supplied of one foot in diameter.

[Pontius Navigator]

Not off a Nimrod then, blame the Army.

[El Grifo]

So we are fairly sure what it is, the question remains, how it got there, especially in its present state.

If it was the remains of a practice round, I would imagine that no warhead would be present therefore no detonation would take place, therefore the propulsion section would remain intact.

The location is only 15miles from Otterburn.

Does it look like like a practice round. Could it have fallen from its mount at some point in the past ?

[diginagain]

Looks like the remains of an SS11, launched from the Scout AH1, but not for many a year.

IIRC, the two blue tubes are the propulsion exhausts, so this one is unlikely to have made its way there under it's own steam.

The blue tubes would also indicate that this one is a dummy load.

Inadvertant release might be ruled out, as it was rail mounted, went off the front (obviously), and I'd be interested to see a picture of a Scout low level, nose low enough for it to have slid off.

The most likely explanation is that it was 'acquired' as a trophy when we went to Lynx/TOW, and subsequently went out of fashion.

The number may be date-related - we were still lobbing them around into the early eighties in BATUS & FI

Hope this helps.

(HWI to back me up?)

[Yozzer]

Here is one on a better day:

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/weapon/as11-2.jpg

From a Russian website!

[El Grifo]

Curiosity still grips the finder. He plans a second visit in order to photograph the unit more comprehensively, this time including various numbers and letters printed on the casing.

We also came to the conclusion that it had not been fired, due to the lack of scorching around the nozzels, however there was signs of soot and blackening at the rear where the cover had been removed, which may have indicated a faulty unit (or that some Ned was trying to set fire to it) !!

You say that the blue nozzels are an indicator that it was a dummy, but it was packed with components and was pretty heavy, also other pictures show this type of unit to have blue nozzels, perhaps they were also dummies.

Had it been a trophy, it is still hard to understand how it made its way deep into the Cheviots.

Thanks for the info guys, any more would be welcome !

[Pontius Navigator]

"Dummy" ordnance comes in different types.

There is inert, drill, training and trials.

The inert is usually, but not always, a shape. Drill is not usually, but sometimes is, flown and is usually complete so that it can be taken apart and reassembled but no explosive. Training is usually flown and may have working gubbins so that the integration with the weapons system is possible. Finally trials has everything fitted with explosives replaced with an inert ballast and propulsion likewise although that might be 'live' if it was a firing trials round.

Colour also gives a clue but the colour goes with the round and not a universal standard as we keep changing the rules.

The short answer is don't touch and you mate should really tell the police who, in turn, will call out EOD to remove said object. Make sure that they get his name as there may be a reward.

If his is a member of the armed forces then get someone else to discover it. Members of the armed forces have a DUTY to report it and therefore would get no reward.

[diginagain]

I have to agree with the last post. Get the professionals to remove it, just in case some 'dummy' tries to take it apart with a lumpy.

[hobie]

I remember in the early 50's in woods surrounding RAF Wahn, a bunch of kids found an unexploded shell .... a foot or so long and a 1 1/2" in dia. ...... they spent weeks hitting it with rocks etc untill finally they had it opened and found lots of "Spagetti" inside ..... :(

To this day I don't know how they survived (inc. me :eek: )

so report the Rocket and get it picked up asap :ok:

[BEagle]

Just make sure that it doesn't have an orange filling band painted around it! If it does, walk away very smartly indeed!

And yes, definitely report the thing to Plod who will no doubt whistle up an EOD team.

[TEEEJ]

On this image you can possibly see the 'scoop' opening as appears in the original image. There was also a development of this missile with similar nozzles - AS.12. It doesn't fit with ident of AS.12 as this was quite larger. I'd still go for the AS.11 / SS.11. Image of '11':


http://www.netmarine.net/armes/missiles/mis06.jpg

Very good advice on the reporting of it. Let the experts remove it and identify it - post back with any ident you might get from EOD!

[El Grifo]

Thanks guys. Have passed on the advice to my mate in Scotland and pointed him to this site.

[Sloppy Link]

Dear All,
I may not know what it is but I can tell you what it isn't. It is not an SS-11 as operated by the AAC from the seventies up to the last firing in April 1987 by 658 Sqn. The SS-11 was a powered all the way to the target missile that used MACLOS (Manual Command Line Of Sight) as guidance, essentially, with one hand (the left), the Airgunner would control the sight (it was gyro assisted, not stabilised) and increase the magnification when about 750m to impact and with the other hand would fly the missile. The missile had odd flight characteristics, the main being as the propellant burnt off the CofG altered resulting in a nose up atitude coupled with the control responses that had a built in latency up to 0.5 of a sec. The SOP was to place the missile above the target in the LOS and allow it to decend slowly as opposed to trying to fly it direct to the target. Despite being powered, there was very little efflux from the motor and as such, two electrically initiated flares were fitted to the rear to allow the Airgunner to see the thing. Direction changes were provided by small nozzles at the rear of the missile that the airflow from a compressed air bottle was interrupted by paddles. The fins were fixed and imparted a slow spin for stability, this was interpreted by the on-board gyro so that any command by the Airgunner was always in the correct sense. We only fired at Pendine Sands and Otterburn towards the end, the last at Onion Range, Falklands being 1983. In the UK we only fired Prac which had an orange powder warhead to indicate a hit, the HE not being fired for cost, danger of blinds and an increased WDA. This would be indicated by a brown ring to denote the propellant and a blue ring to denote a drill warhead. This appears to have neither. There appears to be a lot of caggage without the flare pots. The large hole is the major giveaway that this not a SS-11. there are two lugs at the base of the missile and towards the front of the remains pictured, both of pretty identical size, an SS-11 had the ones at he back but a far beefier fitment at the fron that was connected to an explosive bolt that initiated after 0.3 of a second after the ignition sequence was fired. The poster ref the blue nozzles is off the mark, this means nothing. If it is a complete missile, you are looking at the propulsion section taht will contain about 1kg of propellant. If you are successful in igniting it, it will very definitely leave a mark as the design spec is to accelerate an inanimate, aerodynamic object from 0 to 550mph in about 1.5 secs. It will attempt to beat itself to death and try to take you with it. Call ATO or Otterburn or the Northumbria Constabulary. NOW!
(An HWI)

[El Grifo]

Hey Sloppy Link, you is ma maaaan. Dat kinda **** you cannot buy !!

Ah'll tell me friend to call the cops rightaways.

thanks and a'll

El Grif de bwoy.

[diginagain]

I stand, happily corrected. Thank you.

Departs

[Load Toad]

AS.12? How different was that from the SS.11 - the only picture I found didn't show enough detail.
And we did have AS.12 too.

[El Grifo]

Let me get this straight Sloppy. Are you saying that compressed air was ejected through the blue nozzels rather than rocket eflux and therefore there would never be signs of heat discolouration

If so, this thing could have been fired and the blackening at the rear could have come from the electrically initiated flares.

As you can imagine I am still desperately trying to establish a likely reason for it lying where it was found.

Bear in mind it is roughly 12 miles from Otterburn.

Can you advise me of the significance of the dual coloured circle at the top r/h of the casing. Does it give any clues ?

[StopStart]

I'm sure the nice EOD man will be able to tell you when he gets there!! :D

:ok:

[Spurlash2]

Load Toad

The AS12 was larger than the SS11 with a 165lb HE warhead which was fitted for annual firings. (although not all I seem to remember)

The AS12 range was 7500 yds (lots of copper wire!) and the SS11 range was about 3500-4000 yds?. Anyway, TOF AS12 32 seconds (ambient temperature dependant) and the SS11 about 18 seconds.

As sloppy link says, it was a bugger to control at long range because of the time it took for control inputs to travel down the wire to the control surfaces.

The other great 'feature' with these things was the nasty habit of the redundant wire getting caught up in the MRH after missile impact. The way to stop that was for the pilot to pull up and right after missile impact and for the aimer to then cut the wires. Not before. Doh!

[El Grifo]

Surely this is not the AS-12 to which you refer.

http://www.wonderland.org.nz/Missile_Index/as12.htm

If so, it surely has no connection with the Cheviot Missile.

By the way, my friend has e-mailed the picture and the GPS location of the beast to Otterburn, so watch this space.

Depending on the existence and magnitude of any "reward" I reckon he owes us all a pint. :E

[Spurlash2]

El Grifo

Nope! The AS12 to which I referred was the French Aerospatiale version.

[mystic_meg]

Details on the Nord AS 12 can be found here:

http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb9.html

[Jackonicko]

If it's not an -11 or a -12, then could it be an AS-30?

We had them briefly, on Canberras, though not in the UK, I think.

[El Grifo]

The AS-11 is about a 99% match. What are the salient points which make you think otherwise Sloppy.

No word from Otterburn yet, perhaps if thy do make the effort to recover it they may enlighten us (then again, maybe not)

They have a perfect GPS Fix as well as an OS grid.

[Spurlash2]

Just something else to consider. Mystic_meg's link has jogged my memory as it mentions ground use. This could possibly (good Int stock phrase;) ) have been a surface to surface firing, and not air to surface from an aircraft, as I seem to remember film of ground firings in the late 70's early 80's. Any RA recall anything?

[StopStart]

Have you asked about this on Arrse (http://www.arrse.co.uk) , the army version of pprune?
There's bound to be lots of rocket fans on there - both spotters and polishers ;)

[MightyGem]

Have you asked about this on Arrse
Done!

[El Grifo]

Nice one Mighty. I am a bit of an agrophobic, one-trick-pony. Pprune is a big enough cyberworld for me.

If you get any prime info, I am sure you will share it.

[mad_jock]

err the nose is off it. And it has been outside for a hella of long time by the look off it. And it has a light blue decal

1. The EOD would either pick it straight up and dump it n the back of the landy.

2. If they had Px they needed shot of, blow it. ( which would be the sensable thing to do)

3. Pull it with a bit of rope then lift it. (at least 50m with some cover)

Any which way if you want to keep it or not you NEED a BDO to sign the FFE cert or get shot of it . Or your arse is in a sling.

Phone ordance at Cat and they will have it away. Or if your really upset the local bobbys.

Either that or some TA reg will have a whale of a time clearing it.

MJ

[El Grifo]

Otterburn were given full details, GPS position et al, almost 24 hours ago, but have never responded. Obviously they are not bothered, or too busy to reply.

On reflection, this is pretty much what one should expect.


Watching and Waiting.

[Pontius Navigator]

EOD at Cat can only touch it is it is on their patch. If it is on someone elses patch EOD need a tasking. The only way to get an EOD tasking, properly, is to contact the appropriate EOD Ops. The easy way to do that is to tell the civ pol. They have a procedure and the whole exercise is painless.

As far as keeping it it concerned I would guess EOD may claim it as a trophy.

[Sloppy Link]

The compressed air nozzles were at the rear, they interrupted the efflux from the flight motor to give steering, the blue nozzles are the launch motor nozzles that gave the initial oomph to clear the aircraft. The two coloured sticker is simply a temperature range for storage: Red half indicating the upper temperature limit and the blue half the lower. 18 sec ToF is about right, range of up to 3000m. Warhead was 2.2lbs of RDX/TNT with a shaped charge. Poster who said AS-12 with 165lbs of warhead methinks has forgotten a decimal point, please confirm? The diameter would have been about 6.5" and about 4' in length. Non-beer fuelled inspection and checking old scrapbook phots is bringing me round to thinking that this is one or the other. The AAC never had AS-11 (Harpoon), different guidance system, don't know about the FAA or RAF. Not really suitable for them. Having checked, I now think this could well be an SS-11 or AS-11 motor section. That will teach me to fire from the hip. Apologies to those I may have mis-led.

[El Grifo]

Am I alone here in thinking that in the 48 hour period since advising Otterburn of a potentially dangerous piece of Military ordnance lying on a hillside not far from a hiking trail, one would have received some sort of acknowledgment.

I hope this is something to do with the chain of responsibility and not due to sloppyness.

I can imagine the consequences of somone re-finding the object and being injured by, it hours or days after the nearest Military authority had been advised.

On reflection, maybe my friend should have went straight to "plod" in the first place.

:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

El G, that is what I said. If it is on land that has public access it is a CivPol matter start to finish. Near my patch we had a bomb. It was not on my patch and EOD would not touch it without a tasking. They were reluctant to even have a look.

By the time we got there it had been long gone!

[El Grifo]

I think (I hope) we are on course now. We possibly have a back channel open which should produce results with minimum possible fuss.

Cheers
El grif

[Army Mover]

I read this thread and asked a current ATO to comment. He has just e-mailed me the following:Hi,

I tried to register on the site to reply but apparently I need a referal name to accept the registration and then gave it up as a bad job.

Anyway, if you have access to post on the site put something like this:

"If the UXO is on public land it needs reporting to the Civilian Police who will task the nearest EOD team asap.

If it is on Military land it need reporting to the Range Liason Officer who will (eventually) task an EOD team.

DO NOT TOUCH THE UXO.

If the UXO is the English side of the border a team from Catterick will attend, if the other side a team from Edinburgh will attend.

The EOD teams should NOT be contacted direct as without an official tasking from either Police or Range staff they and the public will not be insured."

Hope this helps, the ID of the UXO is probably SS-11, which went out of service aeons ago. Remember that other nations also use Otterburn so it could from them.

[Spurlash2]

Sloppy

Sorry, mate. Total weight was 165 lbs. The warhead was 65 lbs.

Put it down to shoddy mental admin:=

[Sloppy Link]

65lbs, that is still a hell of warhead! ATO Catterick are dealing and will keep me posted.

[TEEEJ]

El Grif,

100% ident as AS.11 / SS.11. I was passing through Shropshire this week and popped into the museum at Cosford. I have a couple of snaps if you would like them. Details on your PM.

Cheers
TEEEJ