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ORAC
1st Apr 2005, 06:57
A peaceful end in his own bed? It would be in line with his known wishes.
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Pope Suffers Heart Failure, Condition 'Very Serious'

The Vatican said today that Pope John Paul II’s condition was very serious hours after suffering heart failure.

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said in a statement that yesterday afternoon the pope experienced septic shock and heart failure after developing a urinary tract infection. “This morning the condition of the Holy Father is very serious,” the statement said. However, the Pope had participated in a 6am (0400 GMT) mass today and “the Holy Father is conscious, lucid, and serene,” it said.

The 84-year-old Pontiff’s health declined sharply yesterday, when he developed a high fever brought on by a urinary tract infection. The Pontiff was attended to by the Vatican medical team, and provided with “all the appropriate therapeutic provisions and cardio-respiratory assistance,” the statement said. The Pope’s wish to remain at the Vatican and not be taken to the hospital was respected, Navarro-Valls said.

The statement confirmed previous reports the Pope had received the sacrament for the sick and dying yesterday evening.

eal401
1st Apr 2005, 07:42
Well, it was only a matter of time, wasn't it? I hope he will not suffer too much, despite not being very religious myself, I admire his determination, if nothing else.

If it is not out of place to ask, how will his replacement be "assigned?"

cyclicmicky
1st Apr 2005, 07:48
The Cardinals are all taken to a sealed room and have to vote until they reach a majority for one candidate.
They then burn something in a fireplace to send out the correct coloured smoke to indicate a new Pope has been chosen.
At least thats the gist of it!!.
Micky:ok:

ORAC
1st Apr 2005, 07:55
Electing a Pope (http://italian.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.catholic%2Dpages.com/pope/election.asp)

BlueDiamond
1st Apr 2005, 09:01
Perhaps the next Pope will be more in touch with the real world and make a committment to bringing the Catholic Church forward into the twenty first century. The current pontiff, in my opinion, has been a divisive and contentious leader who has adhered to outdated principles and done little to encourage women to be involved in that faith.

tony draper
1st Apr 2005, 09:02
I understand the vacancy is only advertized in house.

ORAC
1st Apr 2005, 09:12
You have to take the long view BlueDiamond, no need to rush things, maybe in two or three hundred years. You only have to look at the Anglican and CofE churchs to see what rushing into changing things can do.

Always preferred the latin mass myself....

Parapunter
1st Apr 2005, 09:12
Awww crap. Fancied it mesel. Accommodation & meal allowance, company vehicle & foreign travel. Some weekend working required. Sounds alright.

BlueDiamond
1st Apr 2005, 09:22
Always preferred the latin mass myself....
My dad was the same, ORAC. Wherever he went in the world (he was a pilot) he could always hear mass and understand it. Some churches still do a latin mass a couple of times a week, I believe.

effortless
1st Apr 2005, 09:28
I hope that the next one is a bit less reactionary. Though I must admit to preferring the mass in latin, or even Polish just as long as I can't understand the utter bollocks of it. :hmm:

Dominus vobiscum

ORAC
1st Apr 2005, 09:31
Et cum spiritu tuo.

PilotsPal
1st Apr 2005, 09:37
One thing that JPII did have in his favour was his ability to speak so many languages - few pontiffs have had this skill and I'm sure it's one that did a great deal for him. One wonders how many cardinals have been working on their linguistic skills over the past year.

I spotted in the paper today that all the so-called front-runners for the imminently expected vacancy are over 70 and mostly Italian.

PPRuNe Radar
1st Apr 2005, 10:14
It's a shame Dave Allen has left us, he'd have made a great Pope.

tony draper
1st Apr 2005, 10:19
The news numpties with the microphones are certainly outdoing each other platitude wise.

psyclic
1st Apr 2005, 10:23
When it most surely and saddly happens it will be an important funeral, guest wise.

Plenty of time for interested parties to prepare and at a precise, known location with worldwide press coverage.

I'd hate to be involved in the security!

Parapunter
1st Apr 2005, 10:29
Given the historical attitude to Catholicism in the UK & the current PC'd up luvvyness infecting everything, one finds that the meeja don't quite know how to handle the issue of an expiring Pope. The tendency seems to be toward quiet reverence, bit like Queen mums when they shuffle orf, but slightly more restrained.

John Paul II will be treated to this until he goes for his meeting with his boss at which point the luvvies will delve into his reign & drag up all the stuff about his attitude to birth control HIV/AIDS, abortion etc whilst ignoring his crusade against communism, the global bridge building he did by travelling more than all the other popes put together etc which shows them up for the hypocrites they are.

I'm willing to open a book on this.:cool:

BlueDiamond
1st Apr 2005, 10:51
This particular pope has been criticised for much during his tenure, Parapunter. I don't think it is fair to suggest that any focus on past issues will occur simply as a result of his death or that those who express certain opinions are necessarily "luvvies." It may well be that people are simply restating the same opinions they have always held. The same is true of the words of praise we will hear about him. Certainly there are people who are reluctant to speak ill of the dead but it would be unreasonable to assume that everyone who speaks well of this pope will be paying lip service just because he's dead.

effortless
1st Apr 2005, 11:10
Habaemus ad dominum.

HowlingWind
1st Apr 2005, 14:46
Maybe it's just my perception, but there appears to be some implication here that the Latin Mass was undone by John Paul II. That actually occured in the mid-60s under the reign of John XXIII, who also relaxed the no-meat-on-Friday rule and allowed non-traditional stuff like "guitar Mass."

(One of the most emotional moments one can recall from the last few years was attending Latin Mass at the Cathedral on the Rynek Glowny in Cracow. Truly moving.)

IMO, the best place for the Church to start would be by modernising its policies on birth control.

effortless
1st Apr 2005, 15:26
Howlingwind, it is just your perception. I just think that JP2 tried to take the church back to pre Pius 12 days, oh all right pre J23. Everyone knows that j23 was the echeumenical turnoff. :E

Credo in unam deum de de de de de de de de de de de de e e um, Deolight come an me wan go home.

HowlingWind
1st Apr 2005, 16:17
Howlingwind, it is just your perception. OK, fair enough.

As was pointed out in the Terry Schiavo thread, J23 also lifted the Church's ban on cremation.

ORAC
1st Apr 2005, 16:57
BBC:
........Police have imposed traffic restrictions around the Vatican and authorities are making plans to deal with a huge influx of pilgrims anxious to be present in the event of an announcement of the Pope's death.

Cardinals - who will have the duty of electing a new pope - are beginning to arrive in Rome from all over the world, Italian media have reported.....

acbus1
1st Apr 2005, 17:56
No doubt when he goes we'll be treated to extended news and special documentaries, obliterating all the regular stuff at zero notice.

Nothing's sacred. :(

terryJones
1st Apr 2005, 18:01
What amuses me is the fact that they should have retired 30 years ago anyway. On the latest list of 'Wannabees' the youngest is 70....

Jerricho
1st Apr 2005, 18:22
On the latest list of 'Wannabees' the youngest is 70....

Heh. I can just see a class of kids sitting there on career day. "And what would you llike to be when you grow up Johnny?"

"Pope!"

El Grifo
1st Apr 2005, 18:22
Shouldn't the faithfull be celebrating his imminent "union with god" rather that bleating like lambs in vatican square.

Trouble with religion is the conflict between the theory and the practice.

:suspect:

Onan the Clumsy
1st Apr 2005, 18:32
Q. What's the Pope's phone number?
A. 2-0-4-6 actually

:8

flapsforty
1st Apr 2005, 18:43
Having taken off my Moderator hat and speaking as an avowed agnostic ..........

How about at this particular point in time showing some respect for the feelings of fellow ppruners who are Catholics and canning the jokes for just a wee while?

McAero
1st Apr 2005, 18:47
Appreciate it flapsforty. Didn't want to start ranting, as I may not have stopped. Some respect please people.

BenThere
1st Apr 2005, 20:56
Not a Catholic, but I did attend midnight mass at the Vatican a few months ago. The Pope was weak but delivered the ritual.

I have great respect for his courage in keeping his faith under a hostile government. His leadership had a lot to do, I think, with the fall of communist rule in Europe. He has been a man of great intellect, a master of many languages, a decent and loving model for us all. May he fare well.

Cynical jokes and rants about the Pope and Catholicism only reflect on those who deliver them.

OneWorld22
1st Apr 2005, 20:59
Goes against the grain of peoples beliefs today, but I pray for the Holy Father and I salute him for a lifetime of work given to the church and to mankind.

His first trip to Poland after he was made pontiff will always be remembered as a critical juncture in 20th century history.

So it was that 250,000 Poles crowded into the square to behold this robust and charismatic fellow Pole, charged with emotion and special purpose, standing beneath an enormous wooden cross.

To understand himself, the pope told his listeners, man must understand Jesus Christ. He can understand neither who he is nor what his truth may be, neither his vocation nor his final end, without the help of the Lord.

After a pause, the pope then uttered words that could only be regarded as at once an affirmation to the faithful and a challenge to the secular authorities:

"Therefore, Christ cannot be kept out of the history of man in any part of the globe, at any longitude or latitude of geography. ... Christ cannot be kept out of this part of the world. To try to do this is an act against man."

The applause began slowly, then rose in a crescendo, thundering across the square again and again like storm waves battering a seashore. For eight long minutes the applause continued. And when it began to subside, and the pope, hand on his chest, was unable to continue, the singing began. "Christ conquers, Christ rules," they sang, hundreds of thousands of triumphant voices. And from among the yellow and white papal flags in the crowd a banner was unfurled that read: "Freedom, independence, protection of human rights."

It was, says a bishop who was there that day, "an awakening." "Everyone suddenly perceived that the pope was the real power," the Rev. Jan Sikorski, a priest, told the Boston Globe. "The police meant nothing. The politicians meant nothing. They trembled before the pope. The people did not sing the Internationale, they sang church hymns."

Ref:CNN

A year later Solidarity was born and priests visiting the imprisoned Solidarity leaders often concealed messages of encouragement from the pope in their robes.

Wonderful editorial written in the Australian. See here (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12726100%255E7583,00.html)

Onan the Clumsy
1st Apr 2005, 21:10
How about at this particular point in time showing some respect for the feelings of fellow ppruners who are Catholics and canning the jokes for just a wee while? ok ok, I'm sorry, but if you pretended to dial the number you'd see it really wasn't an unkind joke.

Grandpa
1st Apr 2005, 21:25
....was happy enough to make sure he was not sent back to hospital, intubed, connected, and treated like a puppet for another week or month......

Roma isn't Florida!

Caslance
1st Apr 2005, 21:39
How about at this particular point in time showing some respect for the feelings of fellow ppruners who are Catholics and canning the jokes for just a wee while?"Who bends not his ear to any bell which upon any occasion rings?
But who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
As well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee."

John Donne - Meditation XVIII

effortless
1st Apr 2005, 22:19
Well as a catholic who had the tender ministrations of mother church though the fifties and well into the sixties, I say bring the jokes on. Catholicism is not one of your namby pamby modern religions which needs to have its feelings protected. Incitement to religious hatred? Pah! I spit on your laws. I firmly believe that Dave Allen will be canonised by the next Holy Father.:}

Grandpa
2nd Apr 2005, 07:21
Doesn't it mean "fraternity"?

gatfield
2nd Apr 2005, 07:24
The pressure, oh the pressure.

I have changed my post.

But I do have this to say -

stay out of JB if you are faint hearted

and

Please don't read my posts if you a Catholic, a religious nutter, prudish, righteous or generally easily offended.

Whirlygig
2nd Apr 2005, 07:38
Do you think I am going to hell now?
No, as I don't believe it exists.

BUT
How about at this particular point in time showing some respect for the feelings of fellow ppruners who are Catholics and canning the jokes for just a wee while?

To make fun of any human being dying is just plain crass. It's not funny or witty. If you're trying to shock, then that hasn't worked either. If you deliberately want to offend, then maybe that has worked. Well done.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Atheist but who still has enough "Christain" values to respect other people's beliefs.

Bo Nalls
2nd Apr 2005, 08:07
Well said Whirlygig.

Gatfield, there comes a time when, with the greatest respect, you should shut the :mad: up. Think of others who do not necessarily share your values.

Konkordski
2nd Apr 2005, 08:47
I understand that part of the reason the new candidates are so old is that they don't want such a long reign again for a while.

In other words, the chap who's next in line for Pope will partly be picked because someone thinks he won't last too long. :uhoh:

Duckbutt
2nd Apr 2005, 09:19
With you all the way Whirly.

I have no affiliation with any religious group but I reckon Gat you're deliberately talking provocative bolleaux! Show a little tact & decorum.

Onewordanswer
2nd Apr 2005, 09:52
Arguments about religion should be undertaken elsewhere, I am nay a catholic and think its outmoded for sure. However he can shed this mortal coil without slag. As to the idea of a young person being Pope thats a great idea! Maybe he (sorry ladies lets not shoot for the moon) can hook up with the Dalai Lama and learn some real religious bridge building! Anyway hats off but we all go sometime he seems to have had a fair crack of the whip.

joe2812
2nd Apr 2005, 11:08
Well I think ol' John Pauly has been an OK Pope... one of the few senior members of the Catholic Church (I think?) who believes that the use of contraception in Africa would be a good thing to help stem the spread of AIDS.

Totally agree with whoever said we need a Pope to bring the Catholic Church into the 21st Century.

Hope he passes on peacefully.

Solid Rust Twotter
2nd Apr 2005, 11:45
Unfortunately, the media thrives on misery and I don't believe they're allowing the man his basic right to a dignified passing. Whatever our opinions are of the Pope, he should be left alone and allowed to go peacefully.

tony draper
2nd Apr 2005, 11:59
The people speaking and acting in the worst possible taste at the moment are the numpties in the news media as per,way over the top,sick voyeuritic fecks

flapsforty
2nd Apr 2005, 12:23
My kids, having only consciously known the ageing and ailing JP II, and being subjected to the press in a country that does not really hold with catholicism, asked me why this Pope was so (obviously) immensely popular with the faithfull.

It was interesting to try and recreate for them the enormous shock of modernism that the young and vigorous Karol Wojtila brought into the Vatican all those years ago. A swimming pool at Castel Gandolfi if memory serves, his accomodating the Italians so they could watch both him and the evening footie games. :) His travelling to bind his far-flung flocks together, his attempts to build bridges between various faiths, his credible stab at making amends for the Catholic Church's behaviour during WW II. The way he spoke out clearly against communist dictororship in the USSR was 'novel' to say the least. His obvious humilty on a personal level compared to the lavishly appointed Vatican buildings. (is the Vatican bankrupt BTW, does anybody know?)
Contraposed with his doctrinal stance on contraception and homosexuality, the way his church has badly handled the instances of priests abusing young lads.
It makes for a complex picture and a very long lunch at Chez Forty yesterday.

BlueDiamond
2nd Apr 2005, 13:29
one of the few senior members of the Catholic Church (I think?) who believes that the use of contraception in Africa would be a good thing to help stem the spread of AIDS.
I believe he was actually against that, joe2812. His stance was that contraception could not be used as it prevented the creation of life and that any HIV+ person must abstain from sexual activity. He said that failure to do so would violate the 5th commandment ... Thou shalt not kill.

HowlingWind
2nd Apr 2005, 15:25
Out of deference to Falps, I edited my original post as well. Perhaps I was the one who started the jokes, though I did clearly label that portion of my post as being irreverent.

I have to agree with effortless that most Catholics can probably take a joke, and most Catholic jokes -- such as the ones I offered -- come from Catholics themselves. As the product of 12 years of Catholic education, I think I should be entitled to toss a couple of barbs back now and then. But that's me. If you didn't have a nun stick the sharp end of a ballpoint into the top of your head when you were six years old because she didn't think you were catching on quickly enough, or at the age of 12 get slapped twice by another nun because you were falsely accused by a lay teacher of doing something you didn't do -- only to bear the wrath of your parents that evening, since they took the nun's word as "Gospel," so to speak -- it might be difficult to have a perspective on the more archaic aspects of the system.

That said, it was a very good education with the discipline that seems to be so lacking today. That's why my parents toiled long and hard to afford it. Realising that religion is one of the thornier subjects in JB as elsewhere, I will let the matter go at that. I acknowledge that the Pope probably played a vital role in the fall of Communism (great post, OneWorld) and even though the system badly needs modernising, since it's been two millenia in the making, the work of one man in 27 years is barely the bat of an eye in the big picture.

Deepest respect for the Pope and his memories, when that time comes, and best wishes for the future of the Church.

PilotsPal
2nd Apr 2005, 20:05
I see his death has just been announced.

MMEMatty
2nd Apr 2005, 20:08
Breaking news says that Pope John Paul II has passed away....


I'm not Catholic, but having had an RC education and currently dating a catholic lass, i know how big a deal this is. Deepest sympathies to all catholics. Take comfort from the fact that his suffering is over.

Matty

Kestrel_909
2nd Apr 2005, 20:14
Not Catholic and not religious but somehow I'm saddened.

I've been following the news the past few days and weeks with him.

Perhaps maybe it's just because I've followed the suffering of an 84 year old man... confusing for me.

At least his suffering is over and now he has gone to meet his maker.

Rollingthunder
2nd Apr 2005, 20:37
6390 per hour .

Deaths in the world.

Wingswinger
2nd Apr 2005, 20:42
As already posted here: "No man is an island......"

Requiescat in Pace.

candoo
2nd Apr 2005, 21:17
Deepest sympathy to all of you that carry the candle.

How do you do the hugs thing?

airhumberside
2nd Apr 2005, 21:21
Condolences to catholics worldwide

airship
2nd Apr 2005, 21:28
JP II wasn't perfect. Who can be though? Perhaps if we were all given the chance to live several lives over, there could be more pretenders. Will they accept nominations? Whatever. I nominate Sir Bill Gates for the vacancy.

Goodbye Karol Wojtyla, may you find peace and remain in a position to intercede on behalf of us mere mortals...

Keef
3rd Apr 2005, 00:13
I didn't (being a non-Catholic) agree with his views on every point, but I had an immense respect for him. It'll be a hard act to follow.

I just hope Ratzinger doesn't get the job!

Flyin'Dutch'
3rd Apr 2005, 06:50
RIP

Flaps summarises it nicely.

Did some good jobs but very archaic in areas that need an 'in touch' view.

Bloke with no. 23 on the shirt did a better job in that respect and was light years ahead.

Solid Rust Twotter
3rd Apr 2005, 06:55
Condolences to all those affected by his passing...

pulse1
3rd Apr 2005, 15:48
I am no lover of the Roman Catholic church but I suspect that the Pope will be less surprised than most religious leaders by the actual reality of heaven.

I understand that the funeral is scheduled for later in the week. I don't suppose they could arrange it to coincide with Charlie's wedding?

At least it would dilute the media hype which, as usual, is beginning to drive me mad.

JustaFew
3rd Apr 2005, 23:29
So, a new Pope is needed?

A woman perhaps......

effortless
3rd Apr 2005, 23:38
Please god not Cormac Murphy o'bubblegum either.

HowlingWind
3rd Apr 2005, 23:42
A woman perhaps...... Ermmm, the Church would first need a woman Cardinal, meaning it would also at some point need a woman Bishop, and at perhaps some other point a woman priest...

:suspect:

tony draper
3rd Apr 2005, 23:49
A woman? yer joking,took seven hundred years for the Virgin Mary to get a job.

West Coast
4th Apr 2005, 05:18
Quote from Tony D

"I understand the vacancy is only advertized in house"


I think you can probably pack the robes away, I imagine you would be a dark horse candidate for the position.

Blacksheep
4th Apr 2005, 06:32
Not being a Christian, I'm struck by the fact that his passing made me feel sad. That was what made him so special - that he could touch so many different people in this global village of ours.

The world isn't such a nice place as it was on friday. :(

Spuds McKenzie
4th Apr 2005, 06:38
Blacksheep,

A remarkable statement. :ok:

Grandpa
4th Apr 2005, 08:35
We have a few weeks left to imagine the next Pope.

How do you seehim?

sprocket
4th Apr 2005, 08:46
As a spritely young 64 year old. :hmm:

Vortex what...ouch!
4th Apr 2005, 10:24
Blacksheep sums it up for me most eloquently. I find myself surprised to realise that as a young boy of 14, at the time, I have such vivid recollections of his election as Pope. :hmm:

BlueDiamond
4th Apr 2005, 11:27
What the Catholic Church desperately needs is a pope capable of leading it into the twenty first century. What it will get will be a clone of all the others. In spite of the fact that fewer and fewer men and women are becoming priests or nuns, the new pope is unlikely to do anything about it. Married priests? Women priests? I don't think so.

Neither can I see the new pope changing the archaic and inhumane laws on contraception ... or indeed anything else that "keeps women in their place."

Only two popes have ever refused to take the Papal Oath, also known as the Oath against Modernism. It will be interesting to see what this one does. Without some sort of radical change, this church will be headed for the endangered species list.

ORAC
4th Apr 2005, 11:46
Might be shrinking in the West, but religion has been in retreat there for over a hundred years - except for fundamentalist churches. Those which do follow the policies you suggest are doing as badly as any other, what gives you the idea that adopting them would change that?

The growth areas for the RC church are Africa, South America and Asia, the dioceses in those areas do not agree that the policies you suggest are the way forward or acceptable (neither do the Anglican communions in those areas either, which is what is causing the schism in that church, by and by).

Your views represent the western centric views of a shrinking minority of the church, to suggest that they should somehow be imposed on the rest would seem a little arrogant.

The seat of power of the church has moved between Rome, Constantinople and Avignon over the years. Maybe it is time for a chnage to reflect the true centre of the church these days. Mexico City perhaps?......

BlueDiamond
4th Apr 2005, 12:09
Why would my opinions or suggestions be considered "arrogant" ORAC? Are you accused of being arrogant when you put forward an idea you think will work? Perhaps some might accuse you of the same fault for daring to suggest that the Catholic Church's seat of power be relocated.

JustaFew
4th Apr 2005, 12:54
The Spanish Inquisition was a trifle awkward for non-believers, orac, or was it arrogant to impose its views on the rest of the world too?

ORAC
4th Apr 2005, 13:01
The relevance being?

Insidently, the reputation of the Spanish Inquisition is undeserved. See here (http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5236).

If you were aware of my previous posts you would be know that I am not a fan of the church, or established religion. But if someone does not like the rules, may I suggest they join another church. There are more than enough flavours to go around already.....

Charlie Foxtrot India
4th Apr 2005, 13:20
It had to be said.

Seriously though, JP2 was a great man who achieved many great things. He was partly responsible for the Berlin Wall coming down, what a time that was.

Brought up RC but turned my back on it years ago (too much guilt and hypocrisy) - but always preferred the traditional way of things, especially Latin mass and the music alone could reduce me to tears, a bit awkward when you're in the choir! I remember being at school after Vatican 2 and the nuns decided to chuck out their habits, start playing guitars and try to dress all groovy. :yuk: I hope the new pope doesn't try to change things too much.

I think the Spanish Inquisition is behind us all now. (Our chief weapon is surprise.......)

My dad met JP2 in his role as a Knight of Malta, and we have a photo at home of Dad and JP2 "enjoying a joke". Apart from anything else, he was just a really nice man.

I'm sure Jesus is very proud of him.

RIP

effortless
4th Apr 2005, 13:22
The growth areas for the RC church are Africa, South America and Asia, the dioceses in those areas do not agree that the policies you suggest are the way forward or acceptable (neither do the Anglican communions in those areas either, which is what is causing the schism in that church, by and by). Your views represent the western centric views of a shrinking minority of the church, to suggest that they should somehow be imposed on the rest would seem a little arrogant.
I have to admit to being worried at the thought of an African pope. My experience of African clergy is that they are even more reactionary than JP2. I don't see it as the problem of imposition of western-centric views on different cultures rather the imposition of damaging, reactionary, primitive rules on a vulnerable population.

I have a deep hatred of abortion but I have seen the results of inappropriate pregnancies, it is not for me to take this away. I have no particular brief for homosexual rights but I have heard members of my own family using the bible as evidence for burning them. The church has always adopted local superstition into its canon. Look at christmas and easter. Absorbing some of the more hard core local beliefs of a largely uneducated and poverty stricken congregation is going to be disasterous.

I would welcome a black pope but if he can't get his head round the idea of contraception and difference then I want none of him.

I am available to The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Church any time after five this evening. I can supply my own thumbscrew.

Capt.KAOS
4th Apr 2005, 13:32
The popularity of the Catholic Church is gaining in the development countries might be contributed to the attitude it is taking in relation to birth control.

Talking about growth in S-America, I vividly remember how John Paul II was received in Nicaragua in 1983...

Funny thing, contemporary everybody's talking about democracy. The Vatican and democracy just don't sound harmonic, or does it?

BlueDiamond
4th Apr 2005, 13:45
But if someone does not like the rules, may I suggest they join another church. There are more than enough flavours to go around already.....
I hope that comment does not refer to me, ORAC, I have never made any secret of my dislike of religions in general and would not be too pleased if people actually thought I subscribed to one.

tony draper
4th Apr 2005, 13:49
Amen BD, a plague on all their houses.
:rolleyes:

West Coast
4th Apr 2005, 17:02
I've always thought it important in threads and discussions to differentiate between a belief in God and a dislike of organized religions. The two are not synonymous. I have a strong belief in God, perhaps not in the popular and packaged form known on earth. At the same time I dislike organized religion.

That said I had a great deal of respect for JPII as an individual.

cyclicmicky
4th Apr 2005, 17:17
Is there a Black Cardinal??
:confused:

flapsforty
4th Apr 2005, 18:11
list of cardinals (http://www.catholic-pages.com/hierarchy/cardinals_list.asp)

Look for African cardinals and click on their names.

zed3
4th Apr 2005, 18:48
Speaking as an Anglican and vicar's son but actively lapsed due to shift work and living abroad for 35 years , I think that JP has brought religion to more people , of whatever faith , than anybody else , except for Jesus Christ . He had an earthly way of contact and was one of the people , even for non-catholics . May He rest in peace .

Caslance
4th Apr 2005, 20:14
I've always thought it important in threads and discussions to differentiate between a belief in God and a dislike of organized religions. The two are not synonymous. On this we agree 100%, WC.

The Roman Catholic Church is, and always has been, a political entity first and a religion second.

Harsh, maybe, but undeniably true - IMHO, at least.

cyclicmicky
4th Apr 2005, 22:41
Flaps!! thanks for that,...........now!! what are the odds against a coloured Cardinal being elected.
I am catholic and somehow I have a feeling that it will again be an ageing Italian Cardinal. This has historically been the case and I don't think it will alter.... At least not this time!!
Regards,
Micky.

Flying Lawyer
5th Apr 2005, 00:50
Now and again in life, not often, we see someone who stands out as a truly good person. I think Pope John Paul was such a man, and that the world has lost someone very special man, truly a man of God. I'm not a Catholic, but I don't remember any Pope in my lifetime being so widely respected by so many people - Catholics, Protestants and non-Christians alike.

I'm not entirely sure what those who'd like to see a more 'modernising' Pope think he might, or even could, do.

Contraception?
Many Catholics just ignore the prohibition, many others don’t but would like to see it removed. I don't know the biblical rationale behind the ban (and have to admit I've never troubled to find out) so can't comment on that issue.

Abortion?
I'm not against abortion but, if a foetus is a living being, I find it difficult to see how Christians could regard abortion as anything other than breaking the commandment not to kill. To ‘modernise’ as suggested, the Church would need to say it was acceptable to ignore that clear commandment. In certain specified restricted circumstances? Or should convenience be sufficient?

Homosexual acts?
I suppose if the test was restricted to whether some conduct is specifically prohibited in the Ten Commandments, or the commandments Jesus gave, there might be some scope for argument. However, for those who believe the teaching in the bible as a whole is God's word, there isn’t because the bible is clear on the issue. The attempts by those Christians who try to put a different construction on what is said in the bible in order to accommodate their own wishes or views are rather like Bill Clinton's (in)famous attempt to play around with what is meant by sexual relations.
Should a new Pope say 'Times have changed so we'll change to adapt to modern life'? What's changed? Is it to be assumed that homosexual urges are a new phenomenon which people didn't have in biblical times? I can't see how any Christian, far less a Christian leader, could sensibly claim they believe that God would say homosexual activity is now acceptable because times have changed.

Should a 'modernising' Pope review biblical teaching and decide which parts to keep and which parts should be abandoned because they are inconvenient for some members? Is he even entitled to do so? The Christian Church isn't like a secular club where members made the rules years ago and current members can change them by a majority vote.

I suspect very few Christians live unfailingly by biblical teaching - I don't – but I wouldn't expect the Church to change rules based on the Commandments or other clear biblical teaching so as to accommodate my failings.
I think Orac makes a good point. If someone doesn't like the rules of a particular religion, they can always join another church whose rules they prefer.
I'd add - Or stay and at least genuinely try to live by the rules. Or just live according to what they believe to be right without being members of any organised religion.

(Edit)
I don't know about other countries but, in the UK, the churches whose memberships are constantly growing are those which uncomprisingly preach traditional Christian teaching - albeit that they've abandoned the traditional form of service.

Grandpa
5th Apr 2005, 08:14
A Black Pope, a sportsman who could reopen Vatican swimming pool and rejuvenate the religious feminine personnel in Rome as did JP at the beginning of His Reign...........?

And why not a gay Pope who could renew the doctrine and allow marriages of all kinds inside and outside of Church, so that the pedophily record could be reduced to unsignificant figures?

Surprise us please...............

psyclic
5th Apr 2005, 09:29
Big bang on Friday. Best opportunity in years for those with the inclination.

brockenspectre
5th Apr 2005, 18:47
Quick question for someone, please. As HM The Queen met John Paull II in the Vatican some years ago, what is the reason for her not attending his funeral? :ok:

Heliport
5th Apr 2005, 18:55
She'll be too busy deciding which outfit to wear for the wedding (reception) the following day?

av8boy
5th Apr 2005, 19:24
Habaemus ad dominum.
Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.

tony draper
5th Apr 2005, 19:52
Hmmm, could be that a Pope issued a fatwah agin the first Queen Elizabeth, yer royalty got long memories.
:cool:

cyclicmicky
6th Apr 2005, 00:25
The Kween is head of the Cof E,
One of said Kweens ansesters (allagegedly) fell out with previos pope typy chappie over not bein allowed to have lots of alliances with other wimmin to begat a hare to the frone. His name wuz 'enery...the fact was he was not overly fertile, but it didn't stop him toppin his wimmin so as to have another bride........ to try to beget an offsprung.........So !!!! He started his own church.......The Cof E....and had lot's of Roman Church type chappies put in discomfort, (see Thomas) hoo was topped in his own caffedral.



The old story really, sex and politics.
HRH is head of The C of E, I don't for one minute think that she is not going for the historical reasons, more likely she just want's to send lazy ars....le son, and teach him a lesson at the same time.

It will never be public knowledge, but my opinion is that the Queen is not for C.P Blisterface.
Ergo;
Make it difficult at least, ..........HRH ain't daft.
:E
Gramps!!
The now deceased JP2 in his younger day's was quite a sportsman. He skied quite well I am led to beleive!!

Rollingthunder
8th Apr 2005, 04:53
"Yesterday, the pope was still lying in state in St Peter's as a surging wave of his fellow Poles broke over Rome: old men with Lech Walesa walrus moustaches, young girls with ivory complexions, Poles of every sort. And, thanks to a gigantic confidence trick, most of them got in to say goodbye to their "Lolek".

On Wednesday, the Italian government's special commissioner, Guido Bertolaso, announced he was closing off the queues leading to St Peter's at 10pm. He warned that Rome was saturated and services were in danger of collapsing. The effect was to persuade many Italians and others to go, or stay home. Yet, without any announcement, in the middle of the night, the queues were allowed to re-form.

Anyone who turned up yesterday, as did the Poles, could get in with less waiting than the day before. It was a supremely gracious, if spectacularly crafty, gesture that should cement Italian-Polish relations for half a century".

The Guardian.

Good on the Italians.

flapsforty
8th Apr 2005, 07:41
Yes RT, the kind of thing Italians seems particularly good at. So far, their handling of the whole enormously big 'event' appears to be very very good. Belying the belittling that nation often is subjected to here on this very forum.

Keef, looks as if cardinal Ratzinger will lead the funeral today. Also see his name pop up more and more.
Not a progressive chap, is he?
I'm with you, hoping it will not be him the conclave elects.

Big Tudor
8th Apr 2005, 10:21
"If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything."

Can't remember who said it but it was a pretty fair assessment of the rise in 'cultish' type religions, with many of the cultees being disaffected 'mainline' religious followers.

If nothing else JPII was a man of principle and honour. He stood by his views and opinions, even though they went against populist thinking. He was able to provide lucid and compelling arguments to back up his beliefs, in numerous languages, and remained unwavering to the very end. There was no bowing to modernisation, how can the Word of God ever be affected by modern beliefs? A healthy society needs conflicting opinions in order to enter into constructive debate and reach amicable solutions.

Whether you agreed with his view or not, it is difficult not to respect a man of such integrity. Perhaps if more people modelled themselves on him rather than the shallow, selfish celebs who invade our lives, the world may just be a better place to live.

effortless
8th Apr 2005, 10:30
If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything."

"When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.”

GK Chesterton

Dignum et justum est

BlueDiamond
8th Apr 2005, 10:43
it is difficult not to respect a man of such integrity
Some of us don't find it difficult at all. In fact, some of us find it a little far-fetched that the word "integrity" could be applied to anyone who steadfastedly refused to permit the use of condoms to prevent a killer disease, and who agreed with the No Abortion rule even to the extreme extent of denying that relief to an eleven year old child pregnant to her own father.

I am sure that he did the best he could within the crippling confines of his faith and that he led his church according to his own principles and those of his faith but he is a long, long way from being the saint that people are trying to make him out to be. There are other realities to be looked at and ordinary humanitarian aspects to be considered too.

Chesterton also said, "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."

Big Tudor
8th Apr 2005, 11:57
A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
So I guess that by going against the ideas of the modernisers, then JPII could be considered a living thing.

I'm not argueing against what you are saying BD, by integrity I was referring to the fact that he stood by his beliefs, even though he must have known there was a very strong and worthwhile argument against what he stood for. I guess you could substitute the word Integrity for Bloody Mindedness!

BlueDiamond
8th Apr 2005, 12:16
Maybe "stubborn" would be better. I don't think he was being bloody-minded but for the leader of a religion which professes to follow the teachings of a kind and gentle person, I believe that there were times when he showed a dreadful lack of compassion and understanding.

There are always going to be people who perceive him as good and those like myself who see him as contentious. It is not my intention to try and persuade anyone to my way of thinking, I'm just saying that this is how I see it; some will agree, others will not.

OneWorld22
8th Apr 2005, 12:55
BD,

You’re falling into the classic anti-catholic trap. If you actually look at the figures for AIDS in Africa, you’ll find the countries with the worst problems have tiny Catholic populations. And it also presents a conundrum, namely if these people were such obedient Catholics, obeying the church on not using contraceptives, how can they be then so disobedient when it comes to the church’s rulings in abstinence and no sex outside of marriage etc?

So being god-fearing, cowering followers, they follow to the letter one ruling and ignore another? I don’t think so.

The Pope follows the rulings and instructions according to the Bible. This Pope followed them to the letter. What do you expect him to do? Ignore some rulings and enforce others? Cherry pick what he and the world wants?

BlueDiamond
8th Apr 2005, 13:13
My expectations are that church leaders will largely do what they have always done and follow their rules and regulations rather than adopt the humanitarian attitudes said to have been displayed by the person whose teachings they supposedly follow.

Does anyone know (genuine enquiry here) whereabouts in the bible the subject of contraception is mentioned?

Big Tudor
8th Apr 2005, 14:24
Deuteronomy 25:5-6. “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be married outside of the family to a stranger; her husband’s brother shall go in to her, and take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his brother who is dead, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel.”

Genesis 38: 8-10.
Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went into his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also.

A tentative link to contraception but I believe it is the second passage that the Church bases its stance on contraception. The interpretation is that Onan used the rythm method of contraception, which vexed God so much that he killed him.

It is difficult to opine on the papal stance on individual issues because the thinking is based on the whole issue. On the issue of abortion, the Vaticans belief is that sex should only take place within marriage. Therefore, in their idealistic world, the issue of the pregnant 11 year old wouldn't arise since the sex act shouldn't have happened in the first place. It is a very naive view, however it is difficult for them to allow concessions in one area (abortion for example) without it impacting on the other areas, such as sex outside of marriage.

It could be argued that the Catholic Church predated modern thinking on womans rights by acknowledging that staying at home and raising children is considered to be a job and not a pastime. I wouldn't say that cos it would incur the wrath of BD & Flaps! ;) ;)

Grandpa
8th Apr 2005, 15:04
I believe in John Donne poem (thank you again Cas page 3 or not far).

This being said, I'm curious about people flocking in Roma, or in front of TV screens...........

Among them I can see the same herd gathering for Lady D, or following Michael Jakson, people who don't live THEIR real life but stick to any event that could take them out of their non-existence.

Could we say they are believers in everything?

X-QUORK
8th Apr 2005, 15:28
So Onan was slain by God because he used the rhythm method? I am under the impression that the Christian God is all forgiving and loves us all regardless of our sins. Hardly a great example there then.

McAero
8th Apr 2005, 15:39
Granpa,

What a dreadful thing to say. How on earth can you compare the people showing their last respects to JP, many of whom were freed from communism by this man, to those who mull outside a courthouse in aid of a pop singer.

That's just plain wrong.

Can we assume that you don\'t believe in anything?

tony draper
8th Apr 2005, 15:58
Well this is England and Historicaly we have no great love for the Papacy or Roman Catholisism and with very good reason,
In this I tend to agree with Grandpa,low level mass hysteria whipped up by the mass media,
Lets be honest in this country anyway,the great mass of people are mostly utterly indiferent to who or what or what is said or done by this Pope or any Pope for that matter.

Capt.KAOS
8th Apr 2005, 16:03
many of whom were freed from communism by this man with all due respect and understandable in view of the current papal hype, but this is a violation of history.

McAero
8th Apr 2005, 16:04
Well, how can he comment on other nationalities' grief and compare it to the English who wept for Di, or the clowns who are out supporting wacko??

Get real

tony draper
8th Apr 2005, 16:09
Believe me not everybody in England jumped on the Di grief bandwaggon, not by a long chalk,but the ones that did played into the hands of the media who started it all and naturally got all the publicty.

McAero
8th Apr 2005, 16:18
I don't think the Popes passing needed the media to create a large mass of mourners. What they have maybe done is brought to light a lot of what the Pope has actually achieved in his life, and people were unaware of.

It was only a short matter of time before the respect shown for JP over the past couple of days in this country disappeared up the swanny anyway........

Big Tudor
8th Apr 2005, 16:39
X-QUORK

Religion, as in life and politics, is littered with double standards, one of the reasons (IMHO) that so many people are turning away from it (religion not life). Forgiveness is one of the over-riding philosophies that is preached in churches across the world, yet try getting married in a church if you are a divorcee. The saying "God moves in mysterious ways." is the standard get out clause.

Both McAero and Drapes have valid arguments. The belief structure of the Catholic church is such that such an outpouring of grief and emotion would have happened even if the media had put a total news blackout on the Popes death. However, the coverage that has been offered is disproportional, IMHO, to the event. Did we really need graphic discussion on the urinary tract infection that JPII suffered. In one breath CNN are revering him as the holiest of men, then in the next instant we cut to a scene in a hospital for an in depth analysis of urinary infections. If it wasn't so crass it would be funny. :hmm:

flowman
8th Apr 2005, 17:14
Did anyone see the ITV coverage of the Pope's funeral. When the solemn and dignified coverage ended the next programme was anounced, "Flintstones - the movie" Yabadabadoo!
Very sensitive I thought :rolleyes:

fmgc
8th Apr 2005, 19:22
Capt.KAOS

Thanks for saying what I have been thinking all along, but dare not say.

Communism was going to fall anyway.

effortless
8th Apr 2005, 19:38
Ha! Not a fiery chariot in sight. I thought that at the very least he would be assumed into heaven.

Sic transit gloria gaynor.

Wingswinger
8th Apr 2005, 21:09
De mortuis nihil nisi bonum.

Grandpa
8th Apr 2005, 23:40
What can I say?

Please read carefully what I wrote.

I used this word "among", then I could have spoken about other distinguished personnalities attending JP's Burial.

Thanks to PPRune I just learned that a not so young groom for a marriage to come soon in a Royal Family in Europe had been luky enough to meet Robert Mugabe in this occasion and shake hands with him.

There came Hafez el Assad too and Dubya the Greet Conqueror of Iraq.

Our Chichi had the chance to get there too, then he will fly to Monaco for Rainier's burial.

Thanks to God ( which one I don't know!) I don't watch often TV, otherwise I would be suffering an overdose of hypocrit comments and genuflexions.

Enough is enough : media are building mass hysteria about Pope's death and burial, exactly in the same way they worked it for Lady D, exactly in the same way they are doing with Michael Jakson adventures, and that makes me mad and affraid what they are able to do in the future.

Among the hords rushing to Rome, there were sincere people mourning a true outstanding personnality............and many morons only going there for fun of making digital photos and enjoy the mob syndrom.

tony draper
8th Apr 2005, 23:50
True Grandpa, the same part of the human psyche that makes somebody worship a particular celeb is the same part that is tickled by religion fervour,or causes the slave like devotion to a charismatic loon like our Adolph.
likewise with music,despite the cultural snobbery,the spotty teen reacting to some mindless pap rap is having the same bit of his brain tickled as someone listening to Beethoven.

McAero
9th Apr 2005, 13:34
I do agree with that point grandpa. I certainly wasn't smiling when I saw the hypocrites in the VIP section, when some very old nuns and priests were out in the crowds unable to get closer.



Maybe we should now draw a line under this thread. Let's not forget that JP had flaws like every human being, but was an inspiration to many.

effortless
9th Apr 2005, 19:00
Requiem aeternam dona ei Domine; et lux perpetua luceat ei. Requiescat in pace.

DX Wombat
9th Apr 2005, 19:11
Amen. Time to let him rest in peace.