EFT PPL Accreditation [Archive]

UberPilot

30th Mar 2005, 12:03

Sorry, this has probably been asked many times before but Lasors seem a bit ambiguous and not many people at Flying clubs seem to know.

According to the CAA Lasors,

'Graduates from the Service Elementary Flying Training Course (commenced November 2000 onwards) will be presented with a Course Completion Certificate by, No.1 Elementary Flying Training School, indicatating Full or Partial accreditation towards the JAR-FCL PPL (A) requirements detailing either a fully completed accredited course or completed parts of an accredited course...

Graduates presented with a partial course completion certificate will be credited only the elements completed during EFT training. Student will be required to complete the outstanding elements to qualify for license issue.

So, as a former UAS VR cadet am I to assume that a fully completed EFT course (no Cranwell ground school) constitutes 'partial' accredidation? In which case to 'claim' my PPL at an FTO I require a CFS Certificate? (Or do I simply take my log book along?).

If the above is true, then the correct course of action to obtain a PPL is to get a partial completion certificate, Take and Pass all ground exams and complete the 270 km-2 aerodrome-landaway (Again, a bit ambiguous, Dual and Solo or just Dual?)

Any clarification on this would be appreciated (Yes, I have serached already, but not that clear).

Thanks

flipster

30th Mar 2005, 13:10

To get a partial accreditation cert, the person to whom you need to speak is the Dep CI UAS (UAS Staff Officer 1/2, as was) at HQ EFT, Cranditz.

Alternatively, speak to the CGI at 3 FTS/CFS Cranwell who will be able to point you in the right direction. You will also need to do Air Law and PPL R/T exams. If you are serving, the CGI can also help you here. If not, then try your local flying club.

Jucky

30th Mar 2005, 13:17

1. Get a Class 2 medical.
2. You need to get a partial accreditation certificate from 3FTS at Cranwell.
3. Do all your exams if you have not done the EFT groundschool at Cranwell.
4. Get your logbook stamped by the CO of the UAS you were at to show all hours correct.
5. If you did a dual landaway whilst at UAS you should only need to do the solo, if not I would expect you would have to do a dual and a solo.
6. You will probably have to do some conversion training with the school to prove your skills to them.
7. When you have done all this, send the relevant paperwork along with your fee, medical certificate, logbook and accreditation certificate to the CAA.
8. Await shiny new PPL.

These are the steps I took to convert my EFT training into a JAR PPL(A).

Hope this helps.

Jucky:ok:

UberPilot

30th Mar 2005, 13:49

Thanks for the Info.

Don't suppose anyone has a contact number for the Dep CI UAS at HQ EFT then ? or a generic dept. number (civ).

5 Forward 6 Back

30th Mar 2005, 15:02

5. If you did a dual landaway whilst at UAS you should only need to do the solo, if not I would expect you would have to do a dual and a solo.

What a pain; does this mean to acquire a PPL I'd need to do a dual and solo landaway in an SEP aircraft, or would trips away in Tucanos or Hawks count?

Sorry if that's a bone question, I know very little about this.

flipster

30th Mar 2005, 16:00

Try anyone in HQ EFT at Rauceby Lane - its a very small dept - they will know who you are after or, as I said, the CGI at 3FTS/CFS - all numbers on RAF Intranet, if you can work it!

As for land-away it should be a three-legged affair with full stop landings at each point. However, I believe a roller suffices. I am also led to believe that some people have done this on their UAS.

If not, then you will have do it on an SEP in a civ (or RAF flying club eg Brize Norton, Halton etc). You may not have to do it dual and solo, it will depend on your ability and your FI. I had my dual planned (Cardiff-Staverton-Shobdon)and having been through it thoroughly with civ FI on the ground, we got airborne, did about half the first leg before she said she'd seen enough and we could go back to Cardiff - I could do it all on my own straight afterwards.

PPRuNeUser0172

30th Mar 2005, 16:48

Once you have done JEFTS groundschool you are entitled for either a full or partial completion certificate for accreditation. Give the Sqn Ldr CGI chap a call and he will be very helpful. He will need to know the dates of your FNT/PNT, FHT and your IFT I believe. Also in addition he will need to know the date you did your cross country, if you did one. Its not part of the syallbus but I got mine after finishing EFT before starting Cranwell and did a 3 legged Nav both Dual and Solo, I only did rollers at the two other airfields so that is sufficient. If you didnt complete this, then you will have this omitted and will need to complete it at your own expense. The JEFTS groundschool syllabus is pretty comprehensive but you will need to do Air Law and R/T exams. You can get these very cheaply if you know someone at a flying club or contact the RAF flying club at Brize, speak to Beags!! In addition you need the medical at your own expense. All you then need to do is send a cheque for about 150 quid to CAA, wait for ages and they will give you a PPL.

Then you just need to get checked out on a puddle jumper at your local club and you should be good to go. Thanks for reminding me as I need to send my stuff off!

DS

Time Bandit

30th Mar 2005, 17:28

Hi Fellas,

This sounds much easier than I expected,and would make getting my PPL from my old EFT experience a lot quicker.

Can you tell me if this would apply to me too?

Here are my vital stats,

EFT completed in full, 3 years ago with a UAS.
Landaway not done.
Logbook fully up to date and signed off by UAS Boss.
I have a Class 1 medical.

Do Jucky's rules apply to me despite it being ages since I flew?

All I have to do is get a certificate from Dep CI UAS,
I don't have to do a final skills test? Only the PPL exams and landaway?

If I can do this it would save me a packet.

Advice would be much much much appreciated.:ok:

P.s. I am not in the RAF now.

UberPilot

30th Mar 2005, 20:09

Thanks chaps.

Flipster, Jucky, to clarify.

1) I need to obtain from 3 FTS a partial accreditation cetificate to validate my flying hours only.

2) I am not (yet, I hope) in the RAF so have done no ground school, thus I must do ALL CAA exams.

3) I must get a Class 2 medical ( £150 !!) and fly a 3 legged 270 km landaway dual/solo (FI dependant).

4) Pass a PPL skills test

In relation to 1), must the certificate come from 3 FTS not the UAS I flew with?

Jucky

30th Mar 2005, 21:27

Uber, you are correct.
And to clarify;
The accreditation certificate verifies you have completed EFT and groundschool if you did it.
As far as I am aware it is 3FTS that issue the accredititation certificates.
Your FHT should count as the skills test. However I'm not sure whether or not there is an expiry date on this.
I did this during leave as soon as I had completed EFT so I was current.

Jucky:ok:

16 blades

30th Mar 2005, 21:37

As an aside, wonder if someone in the know would tell me what I would need to do to get a PPL. Completed JEFTS a long time ago, haven't flown a single engine aircraft for over 10 years, have 2000+hrs, mainly Herc. I understand BZZ flying club (the civvy one, not 216 Sqn!) runs a light twin, as well as PJs. What do I need to do, and how much does it all cost? BEags?

16B

flipster

31st Mar 2005, 09:50

Most questions (16B, Jucky, TBandit etc) can be answered most correctly by LASORS (on CAA website, in hard copy at most Fg Clubs and UASs/DEFTs) and possibly by Beag's who can certainly help to get you SEP-current!

For what it is worth, here some answers as I see them:

EFT FHT (dunno about time lapse) with log book signed off = PPL skills test. Although one may be able to argue that BHT is also equiv of skills test - I did and the CAA agreed, although it was 17 years ago!

EFT Syllabus done and 3FTS Groundschool completed = Get Full UAS Accred cert from HQ EFT.

No EFT Groundschool = Do the full PPL exams

EFT Groundschool completed (fairly recently) = Just need Air Law and R/T theory (at any Fg Club). Get Partial UAS Accred Certificate from HQ EFT.

No 3 leg-landaway nav done on UAS = Do one solo at civ fg club eg Brize FC (need to get checked out on their ac, which will cost you a little)

As I have said before, the UAS/EFT (full or partial) Certificates are controlled by DCI UAS/UAS Staff Officer chap - NO ONE else. I can't remember the ext no (63, something, something?) and I don't wan't to give his name on open forum, as he is a nice chap but he may not appreciate me disclosing his details! The CGI at Cranwell (also a very decent sort) does not control these certificates any more - all done by HQ EFT but the CGI will be able to help as Groundschool do a very reasonable Air Law and R/T exam package (the CGI is a CAA accredited Ground Examiner) (Try Cranwell ext 7245 for the DCGI).

Please remember the Cranwell guys are doing this for free and do not lose your rag if you do not get what you want - they are only doing what the CAA have agreed to. The bottom line is - Check LASORS .

If, in the rarest of occasions, your case is not covered in LASORs, then you will have to do battle with the CAA SRG FCL (Safety Regulation Group) , (Flight Crew Licensing). If you can get through the CAA phone system, then, actually, they are really quite helpful these days - which goes against rumour control!!

However, I say again, FIRST CHECK LASORS.

Any other probs feel free to PM.

Bon chance

Flipster

BEagle

2nd Apr 2005, 07:17

Quite a few errors on this thread...

Firstly, you MUST read LASORS 2005! If you don't, and you ask the CAA, they will tell you to read it and then come back if you can't find the answer.

There is a recent change which I have managed to secure from the CAA which is not yet in LASORS; if you have your Wings after having completed FW training but haven't yet met the 'fully earned' C Cat/CR/B1 QFI stage, then you merely need to do the following:

1. Obtain a JAA Class 2 medical.
2. Pass PPL Air Law, Human Perf and Comms PPL exams.
3. If not current on military SEP aircraft as part of your service duties (Vigilants do NOT count), pass the PPL Skill Test with a UK/FE(PPL) like me but without the navigation section.

The EFT accreditation is very clearly laid out in LASORS 2005; the FHT credit is valid for 2 months from passing the EFT FHT.

My advice to Wings holders is not to bother faffing about with EFT accreditation but just to meet the 3 requirements as above.

If you meet 'Experienced QSP' accreditation requirements, you will addditionally be credited the Human Perf and Comms (PPL) exams.

You may also (if you hold a Green FW IR) be able to add an IMC rating to your PPL; a Night Qualification may also be added i.a.w. LASORS 2005.

You can download LASORS 2005 from:

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1591

PS - Sorry to have been so late in replying; just back from a trip to Airbus Toolooze.

Megaton

2nd Apr 2005, 08:06

Flipster,

Your message box is full and won't accep any new PMs. Obviously, you're too busy with easyJet to read your e-mails? ;)

jungleboy

2nd Apr 2005, 13:53

you only have two months from the time of passing FHT in order for it to count towards a PPL. Any longer and you will have to do a PPL skills test as well as the other stuff you mentioned

16 blades

3rd Apr 2005, 03:58

Another stupid question(er) - do PPLs have 'type ratings' as such, or just 'class' ratings? If I passed a skill test in a PA28, what would that entitle me to fly? Just PA28s?

16B

Edit: Have read LASORS and the ANO (schedule 8 i think - exercising privileges) - if the answer is there it is in a form i cannot decipher!

BEagle

3rd Apr 2005, 07:45

In the civil world, there are 'licences' (PPL, CPL, ATPL) which contain 'class ratings' and/or 'type ratings', e.g. Single Engine Piston Class, Single Engine Turbine Class, Multi Engine Piston Class, Touring Motor Glider Class, Airbus A320 Type Rating etc etc.

When you first apply for a licence, you also apply for the rating for which you were tested. Thus most people apply for a PPL with SEP Class Rating after taking the PPL Skill Test; thanks to Eurocracy the PPL lasts for 5 years until it has to be re-issued and the SEP Class Rating lasts for 2 years unless revalidated.

A Single Engine Piston Class Rating taken on a PA28 does not limit you to just PA28s as it is a generic rating; conversion training is recommended but not legally mandatory if you then wanted to fly, say, a Cessna 152. No additional licensing paperwork would be needed though.

However, if you wanted to fly a SEP Class a/c with a VP prop, retractable u/c, supercharged or turbocharged engine, tailwheel or cabin pressurisation, conversion training (unspecified) is mandatory and the Flight Instructor or Class Rating Instructor carrying out the training must sign your logbook to confirm that the training had been completed.

If later you wish to add light twins to your licence, after completing the relevant training you take a Multi-Engine Piston Class Rating Skill Test with an authorised Flight Examiner or Class Rating Examiner.

To fly at night, you need a Night Qualification; for military FW pilots this is normally a paperwork exercise if you are 'night current' in military terms. You can also add a UK national IMC Rating to your licence fairly easily if you have a current military FW Green IR, however, you can only use its privileges in UK airspace.

UberPilot

3rd Apr 2005, 09:19

Just out of interest. If I get the partial accreditation certificate from HQ 1EFTS and complete all the required parts, what is the benefit of a partial accreditation certificate as opposed to just log book hours?, i.e. someone who didn't complete EFT but has 60 odd hours?

I suspect I should have sorted this as soon as I did FHT!

BEagle

3rd Apr 2005, 09:33

The main benefit of a partial accreditation certificate is that you may well be exempt from some of the PPL exams. Also, your previous training will effectively be certified to a known standard and the CFI deciding your training will be able to rest assured that you have been trained accordingly. Thus your conversion may be slightly quicker.

Note that the PPL requires rather more medium level visual navigation than you have probably been used to - and you will certainly need to be able to use a Dalton computer for the navigation exam and for pre-flight navigation planning as MDR will not enable you to make sufficiently accurate ETA estimates for the PPL Navigation exam or PPL Skill Test navigation section.

Quite why 1FTS don't give you this information whilst you're training with them is something which you need to take up with them.

UberPilot

3rd Apr 2005, 10:02

So, how long would you typically be looking at to convert?

Say, a couple of hours GH to refresh on something cheap like a 152. Medium level nav is not exactly hard; 1 hour nav then straight into the landaway dual/solo. Then back to something decent for the skills test; 2 hours Firefly then test.

Does this sound realistic ?

Is is 'easy' to convert to a Cessna or better off sticking to Firefly/Tutor type aicraft that you are used to already?

BEagle

3rd Apr 2005, 10:39

How long to convert? Depends upon your progress, attitude and technique...

You may need to complete exercises which you won't have covered before, for example Precautionary Landings, use of radio navigation aids etc. I suspect that you will need to complete your PPL training, convert onto a civil SEP Class aeroplane and reach solo standard. Then dual navigation training; you would not normally fly the landaway trip 'dual then solo' - such military mollycoddling is not a normal feature of PPL training as you have to demonstrate a safe level of visual navigation before being sent off on a solo Qualifying Cross-Country with 2 intermediate landings (not touch and goes as you will need to have your certificate signed). Your navigation proficiency will also be tested during the PPL Skill Test and will include a visual diversion without ATC assistance.

You would probably then fly some pre-Skill Test revision exercises, then, when you've completed all training requirements, take the PPL Skill Test which is about 2.5-3 hours long.

Why would you wish to use an expensive a/c such as the Firefly or Tutor when you can meet all training requirements in a C152 or PA28?

Budget for a total of about £1200 including exam fees, examiners' fees, flying, licence issue cost etc - and you may have some change left over. That's about 8 hours at £75 per hour, £150-ish for the Skill Test Examiner's fee, £149 for the PPL issue fee, perhaps some ground exam fees as well. Don't forget the membership fees which your Club may also charge you - and if you need to take a FRTOL RT practical, that'll also attract a fee....

And take it seriously; PPL flying is not inferior to EFT flying, it is different. Who gets the met and NOTAMs? You do. Who gets the a/c out of the hangar, pre-flights it, cleans the windscreen etc? You do. Who marshalls you - no-one. Who refuels it and puts it back in the hangar? You do!

UberPilot

3rd Apr 2005, 13:40

Thanks - much appreciated.

The only reason to use a 2-seat aerobatic a/c would be to try and stay as 'military' as possible so IF I get into any of HM Forces I don't learn to many bad habits.

UberPilot

6th Apr 2005, 12:14

Apologies for bringing this up again!

Does anyone (BEagle?) know about EFT accreditation for the NPPL.

From the website,

University Air Squadron (UAS) and Joint Elementary Flight Training School (JEFTS) pilots who have
successfully passed both the EFT Final Handling Test and the Final Navigation Test shall be credited the
requirement to take the NPPL (SEP) NST and GST. UAS or JEFTS pilots who have only passed one of these
tests shall be credited with the corresponding NPPL Skill Test.

I can't find a time limit. Does this mean then having completed the course all that's required is the land-away and ground exams with no tests?

Sounds easier ? Or might as well do the Skills test and get the full license?

Just had an e-mail from the chap who\'s responsible for the NPPL.

If you have completed EFT, all you need to do to get a NPPL is a 100 nm land-away and the ground exams. There is no time limit on the PNT or FHT exemption for the Nav tesr or Skills test.

BEagle

6th Apr 2005, 17:21

Well, seeing as it was me who wrote the NPPL accreditation in the first place, yes, you're right.

You will have to be checked out to do the solo QX-C, so that will be sufficient test of your proficiency without the need for a further formal test; effectively your just converting to another a/c and regaining recency ('flying currency' in mil-speak) under the supervision of a FI.

UberPilot

6th Apr 2005, 17:53

Interesting.

I think I'll still go for the full JAR-FCL PPL incase I want to go civvy flying professionally anytime or add Night or IMC.

Why is the full PPL EFT skills test exemption only valid for 2 months and the NPPL indefinitely? Seems like a ploy to get more money from Skills Tests.

Flik Roll

6th Apr 2005, 18:14

Uber Pilot, if you are looking to learn on a 2 seat aerobatic a/c similar to the tutor or firefly, I would suggest learning on a Robin, BUT they do not have a VP prop, but fixed pitch.

I learnt fixed pitch first and found the transition to the tutor and the VP easy, although I know some people who didn't!

Off the top of my head I cannot think of any 2 seat trainers with VP other than the firefly and tutor. I don't know whether the other Grobs used at flying clubs had VP or are aerobatic. I know the cranwell flying club ones aren't aerobatic.

Also, how old are you? You could apply for a flying scholarship to help aid your training - such as from the Air League or GAPAN where you don't have to be an air cadet.

I guess the time limit is for currency reasons again.

Having done EFT also enables you to get a VP sign off for your PPL.

BEagle

6th Apr 2005, 18:29

Uberpilot - it's because the industry-led NPPL Policy and Steering Committee was able to write the NPPL accreditation under its own National conditions, whereas JAR-FCL accreditation can only be granted by the CAA under JAR-FCL conditions.

In other words, commonsense versus Eurocracy!

UberPilot

6th Apr 2005, 18:32

So EFT will sign me off for the differences training on VP props ?

Are there many Firefly 260's knocking about?, I know there's one at Oxford but havn't seen(heard of) many south of London.

Without sounding like an aviation snob, as an engineer as far I can work out VP props aren't that much of an advantage at the low speeds most sheds fly at. Isn't the only reason the Tutor has a VP Prop is to prepare the(few) people that go to Linton? and an extra lever looks better on the quadrant.

As regards scholarship the only one I want at the moment is from HM! For the other ones mentioned, surely you need to want to fly civvy, are they going to pay for someone to train with no commitments ?

Flik Roll

6th Apr 2005, 18:36

VP make aerobatics far easier! With a fixed pitch you have to watch the RPM gague as well so you don't overspeed the engine and it becomes hard work. Basically it makes overstressing the engine harder to do.

Where do you live? I'm a south of london person so drop me a PM i may be able to help

Flik Roll

10th Apr 2005, 23:25

Uber Pilot, I replied to you PM sorry for delay...I always forget to check them!

Another St Ivian

11th Apr 2005, 07:58

UberPilot; GAPAN still sponsored me after I made it quite clear in the interview that I intended to follow a path into the Military. They aren't strictly civil orientated.

ASI

dinoorin

11th Apr 2005, 20:11

Having read this thread with interest.
All my mainstream military hours are now well out of date. However I am now a 'B' Cat on the Vigilant light aircraft (sorry 'Motor Glider'). Apparently under JAR, hours on the Vigilant do not count on JAR type PPL unless you have a TMG rating.
Question - does the NPPL allow the hours to be claimed against it and if so how easy is it to convert my nearly out of date JAA PPL across to an NPPL.
Help please Beags or other knowledgable type person

Flik Roll

11th Apr 2005, 20:43

I did wonder myself about converting viggie hours towards and NPPL, but instead I took the maximum ten towards my PPL. Would be interesting to find out whether I could have got an NPPL for not a lot! Never asked the CAA so am interested as well to find out!

BEagle

11th Apr 2005, 20:52

What do you mean by a 'nearly out of date PPL'? Is it your licence which needs to be re-issued at the 5 year point or your SEP Class Rating which is about to expire?

The Vigilant is not a SEP Class aeroplane. Neither is it a SSEA Class aeroplane for NPPL purposes. Either you will need a TMG Class Rating on your JAR-FCL PPL(A) or a NPPL SLMG Class Rating in order to count time on Vigilants; but, at present you would have to maintain both SSEA and SLMG NPPL Class Ratings independently.

I suggest you revalidate your JAR-FCL SEP Class Rating by LPC, then add a TMG Class Rating after which hours flown on either a SEP Class aeroplane or a TMG Class aeroplane will count towards the validity of both Ratings