Flying Pay

[Filthy]

Chaps,

Today I have had some news from PMA that will effect ALL Airmen Aircrew that have commissioned in to Officer Flying Branches. On commissioning I understood that the length of time in receipt of NCA Flg Pay was overlayed on the Officer scale and you started on that rate. Indeed that is what happened to myself in 1999.

In Apr 03 the bean counters in town noticed that in fact this method was in correct and that ALL should start at the Officer Intial rate 0 Years. They decided to draw a line in the sand and all before Apr 03 would be able to continue on the current scheme (Although a mistake had been made) after this date they would be placed on the initial rate.

On the 12 of this month I should have progressed onto a higher rate but as they are reviewing the policy they have not done so because they believe a change in policy will be coming in the next two-weeks.

The current rules state that I am entitled to the next rate having been in receipt of the current rate for 4 years although there is no rule (at the moment) stopping this can they withold this until the new rules come into force?

PMA have stated that "a mistake had been made and a decision was made to limit the extent of this (Apr 03) however this decision is now under review and it may be that it is reversed. This would result in a number of Commissioned Airmen Aircrew in various branches being placed on the correct band of flying pay".

When questioned whether they could reduce the band or mark time rules would apply, they stated as it was additional pay the mark time rules did not apply and many WOULD SEE CUTS IN FLYING PAY .

Gents, I am at a loss on this one can any of you experienced chaps out there or anyone in the same boat give any wise words/guidance on this matter. I am already pursuing the PSF route however looking for other options.

[Tourist]

Oh well, they pay you guys too much anyway.

[5206]

Tourist,

That's not true, aircrew deserve every penny of their flying pay..






.. it's the rest of it they don't do anything for :) :p ;)

[BEagle]

A well-respected senior officer on the Nimrod fleet once said that he considered that all spanner-w@nkers, blunties and other PONTIs should receive the equivalent of flying pay...

But with one condition. That he should be allowed to shoot an equivalent number of such penguins every year as Aircrew who were killed in flying accidents.

That normally shut the mouths of the shiny-ar$es!

:ok:

[MovinWings]

Tourist......... what can I say, You're an Utter....Utter...Utter...... ! Words Fail me.............

MW

[engineer(retard)]

Beagle

Us engineers have a high mortality rate due to heart attacks brought on by our sedentary lifestyle, and senile dementai because of lack of mental stimulation. Cheaper than bullets anyway. :\

[5206]

Beagle - touche!

It's the JAFAs that really need sorted - Just Another F*cking Administrator - changing the rules in the middle of the game.

5206

[Filthy]

Chaps,

Top Banter, but the missus has already spent the increase ten fold!!!!!!!!

Any help even from JAFA's accepted in this case.:{

[kippermate]

This has happened before. In the early '90s a decision was made that payment of the low rate of Flying Pay had been incorrectly paid to studes after their initial streaming. 5 years later some pilots on the middle rate of FP were 'regraded' back to the low rate. The RAF did decide that they would not seek return of the overpayment!

kipper

[Tourist]

MW

"Words fail me.........."

That's is the single worst bit of banter it has ever been my misfortune to receive!(and I've worked with the Crabs!)

You should be ashamed of yourself. (and probably have your flying pay docked. Oh..........you have)

Must try harder

Incidentally, you want to get that stutter looked at:ok:

[Filthy]

Believe as this is a Tri-Service F*** Up at will apply to all NCA commissioned into Aircrew branches. This includes AAC/RM Pilots Observers etc.

[serf]

'fraid not old boy, all pilots in the AAC receive the same rates of flying pay !

[High_Expect]

C##K
...
.......

[allan907]

As the MOD staff officer responsible for the re-write of the Airmen Aircrew pay structure in 1989 I can give you all categoric assurances that it is NOT being driven by any admin officer (there are also a fair number of GD Branch officers in MOD admin type appointments as well). This has the distinct smell of Treasury civil servants.

If there is any fault it is likely to be the one or two star GD officer at the head of the particular MOD branch who is not standing up to the Treasury 'jobs-worths'.

Write to your MP - they might be able to put some pressure on. Don't rely on the airships they have too much trouble in concentrating keeping upright without the spine.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Allan 907

What a brave chap you are! I have never herad of anyone having the balls to own up to anything, especially something like the huge **ck up you admit too (you're still an ar$e tho') And don't now blame the civil servants either. We all know they are ar$e$, but it is people like you who push them in the direction they go. Afetr all, do you expect us to believe that they could have dreamt up some of these ideas themselves??

Retard Engineer - what are you on? I have never heard such utter claptrap in all my life. Get a life old man. Heart attacks caused by lack of mental stimulation?? Yeah right. Utter Tosh.

Frankly, I would scrap ALL memebrs of the armed forces who even look like a blunty. They are just a waste of valuable oxygen!

Filthy, I fear you will, like the AA bretheron you left behind, will yet again be shafted!
Switches back to safe and time for my medication!

Kind regards to ALL aircrew, commisioned or otherwise
TSM

[spinstallaeropfl]

I thought I received flying pay for the 2 following reasons:

1. A nice spangly new car every 2 years or so (I can recommend the new VW GTi bye the way... Never thought it would look so good in white...!).

2. The unique opportunity to banter with those who think I don't deserve it...

Am I wrong..?

SSAP

[Safeware]

TSM

Frankly, I would scrap ALL memebrs of the armed forces who even look like a blunty.

Sounds fine, get rid of blunties, there is no one to support your flying, you become a blunty, get rid off you.

Oh, looks at profile, somebody already did :)

sw

[hanger_pilot]

guys,

I dont mean to pour oil on to fire, but.....

There are a few arguments that I always wanted to discuss in a blame free environment.....

1. If flying pay is to be considered as danger pay then why do you get it when you have an office job? Why are you campaigning so hard for it to be considered for your pension?

2. Do you believe that you should get it becasue you are doing a job that is hard to do and hard to get?

Please dont give me abuse because I'm challenging the manhood of all pilots, if you can justify yourself on these questions, I'll be the first person to hand over my income tax!

[The Swinging Monkey]

SW
You are obviously a Bluntie Sir otherwise you would agree.
If you had any experience at all, then you would know that blunties are little but a hindernce to flying. They do little (no, probably Nothing) to support flying, and there is absolutely NO way i would ever become a blunty.

Oh and by the way, one of the reasons I left (and countless others do) is because after 30+ yrs, I was pi$$ed off with having blunties deciding who went to GW2, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosavo et al.

The CAS thinks he runs the RAF - little does he know, its actually a cpl scribblie from SHQ.

Back to bed
TSM

[engineer(retard)]

"If you had any experience at all, then you would know that blunties are little but a hindernce to flying. They do little (no, probably Nothing) to support flying"

Wish I'd known this many years ago, it would have saved me standing in rain and snow fixing aircraft.

"Retard Engineer - what are you on? I have never heard such utter claptrap in all my life. Get a life old man. Heart attacks caused by lack of mental stimulation?? Yeah right. Utter Tosh."

Did not realise that you had to hand in your sense of humour with your 1250.

[spinstallaeropfl]

h_p

Just hand over your income tax and stop whining. Our aircrew are quite simply the best in the business... excellent value in my book..!

SSAP

[The Swinging Monkey]

Retard Eng,

You have a guilty concience my dear chap. I did not refer to you as a bluntie at all. You, along with most engineers have my and probly most aircrews', utter respect. Its the pen pushing gimps whose aim in life is to screw up as many people as possible (including engineers) that are the problem.

As for sense of humour - well, I never laughed as much as when i read about engineers having heart attacks caused by lack of mental stimulation!!

Ho ho ho ho

Love to all engineers!
Kind regards
TSM
'Caruthers, better send a bottle of the finest round to the retard engines bloke'

[TurbineTooHot]

Right,

First off I am in receipt of my flying pay and it is very nice thank you.

It is classed as specialist pay is it not?

We have had to train for a very long time to get in the air, and are rewarded accordingly (3 and 1/2 years training time not counting holds for a FJ mate, 3 for RW and ME).

I am a non grad, and thus entered on a lower pay grade and rank to those with any degree.

Non problems. Even if I think that for the most part this degree does not get used by the officer concerned (engineers aside), I think that it is only fair and right that grads get paid more initially.

So why do you chislers gripe about those of us who have done that much more professional training getting paid accordingly?

How long do shinies do, 6 weeks?

Gingers? 6 months?

Common guys. Qualifications cost.

TTH

[spinstallaeropfl]

I'm a big fan of engineers, they give me airplanes to fly and then fix them when I bust them - top I reckon..! Well they used to before someone gave me this desk instead... oh well, better get off down the boozer and make a dent in this month's wheelbarrow load of flying pay...!

SSAP

'one for all and one for one's self...!'

[engineer(retard)]

SM

Thank you, I have never been accused of having a conscience before and I wait with baited corkscrew for your offering. In fact I would not only pay double income tax, but also sell my wife and children to ensure that the nations finest recieved their flying pay.

Regards

Retard

[Megaton]

Yup. Qualifications cost. So where was the specialist pay for 4 yr degree followed by 12 months of eng trg with RAF (which was incidentally, the most boring 365 days of my life!). Anyway, left now and very happy to have done so.

[Twinact]

In response to Hanger Pilot and the origin of flying pay, I believe it was specialist pay introduced sometime in the 70's in addition to the military salary (Perhaps Beagle can confirm this).

On 19 Mar 02 the then MinAF, Mr. John Spellar had this to say on pilot retention:

"The retention of pilots is a critical problem, not just for the RAF but for other armed forces around the world. Many pilots choose to leave the services at an early opportunity to pursue a second career with civil airlines. Improving pilot retention rates is therefore one of our highest priorities. Indeed, that was reflected in the announcement of the armed forces pay award for 2001, which, in addition to a 3.7 per cent. increase in basic salary for all ranks, will result in increases in flying pay."

The 2005 AFPRB said in their latest report:

"......Flying Pay remained justified on recruitment and retention grounds.......It wished to preserve the current structure ..... to retain experience and skills in the face of civilian market pressures...."

" MOD argued that differences in FP rates between Officers and NCA reflected real differences in responsibilities."

I'm not aware of a huge market for WSO's in the real world so not convinced by the retention line, but I do think that the VW Golf is much nicer in black!!!!!:)

[blind pue]

I see nothing wrong with Flying Pay this was my statement for December, obviously one of the bean counters thought I do such a good job I got my own pay scale.

[Twinact]

Blind Pue,

Where did the attachment go to?


:p

[blind pue]

Sorry can't work the attachments.

It was surposed to be my pay statement showing a total of £27584.83 for Dec 04. someone put the monthly total of £764.88 as a daily rate giving a very nice surprise in January.

I'm sorry to say they got it all back very quickly.

[5206]

TSM, good to see that you don't consider Engineers as Blunties. {Salts of the earth in my books :) }

But who are the blunties then, ATC - getting you up and more importantly back? Suppliers - getting the bits needed by the engineers? Docs, making sure you are fit to fly? Or even your desk officer - probably one of your own branch - sending you to the far off places you moaned about?

I trust from your profle that you are the co director of a one man company since you don't need any support!

5206

[Twinact]

Blind Pue,

If you are spec aircrew then the rate of pay and monthly amount seem fine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1:O But I suspect you are from the green machine.

I've also edited my previous post to protect the innocent.

[500days2do]

Not wanting to spoil the fun or change the tac of this thread...

Does anyone know for certain if the change in higher rate of fly pay for NCA (18 1/2 years from 22years) takes into account the fact that some, who are still on lower rate will qualify for the new high rate...make sense..?? A couple of guys at our place,new to aircrew but old to service,think they might get a nice pay rise...?

Answers on a postcard to.....

[hanger_pilot]

I'm really sorry guys,

but since i asked a while ago about what flying pay is for bnobody has come close to agreeing on one common reason. You get it and don't want to rock the boat - it can't be about qualifications since engineers are (generaly) alot more qualified that aircrew.

in response to TurbineTooHot who gimped on about being a non-grad on a lower rate of pay during training - for most engineers who have to pay for their own trianing at uni before joining i dont think your arguement is valid.

As for spinstallaeropfl - sent me your address and I'll send to a cheque!

so come on, whats it for??????

[timex]

Retention

[hanger_pilot]

timex,

man of many words.... retention?

does this mean that you only deserve it becasue you could get paid more working for virgin??????

[Megaton]

Retention argument holds no water. Why bother paying with FP for WSOs then? The RAF was (is?) chronically short of Plods so why not pay them some sort of retention bonus. Conversely, sims, ops, MOD, Cmds are full of WSOs who have seen their last cockpit.

[raytofclimb]

Less to do with retention ,since I could probably earn as much selling mobile phones or houses with less bull***t; and more to do with aircrew of all types (and RAF Regt) ultimately sticking their necks out while all the REMFs moan about us geting paid more.

Shut up.

Isn't it that obvious?

Ray

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

WSO's observation:E

Ever noticed that "most" those who don't get flying pay whinge and bitch about those who do............whilst those who do drive round in posh motors with huge wallets and a permanent smile:ok:

Just a thought:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Yeller_Gait]

500days,

I guess that if they were due to get the higher rate at 22 years, they should now get it at 18, even if still on the low rate. I am not sure what the t's and c's are nowadays, but unless they have signed up to a minimum of x years on the middle rate they should be alright.

I look forward to the extra £4 a day in my pay from next month onwards.

[Unmissable]

Its very simple....flying pay (and FRI) is for retention AND recruitment.

Retention for those who have highly transferable skills (pilots) to keep them in,...

Recruitment for those who join knowing that the skills they obtain are useless outside, but still chose (and have the ability) to fly in HM's ac.

Its well known that recruitment for pilots isn't a problem but retention is....and retention for WSOs isn't a problem but recruitment is.

Two problems...one solution. (Money)

[idle-centralise]

2 reasons:

1) Years and years sat on an explosive seat day in day out, which you are quite likely to have to use, or if you're unlucky enough not to have one, not get out.

2) If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I know there is no shortage of people that want to be pilots, but if you want to attract the top people with lots of mental capacity you have to make the pay vaguely comparable to the jobs these people could get outside the military, which still pay much more than our salaries including flying pay. It's a fact of business, the more you pay, the better the calibre you get.

I have to be brutally honest and say that there are less people in the world that can fly a fast jet than can be an admin officer, so the pay reflects this. Perhaps an unpopular view, but in my opinion, fact all the same.

Mostly hidden away in my bunker awaiting tirade........

[spinstallaeropfl]

h_p

Incentive and retention pay.... just the same as the airline boys are paid - speaking of which, we all tried to make a dent in our flying pay tonight but it's just impossible, and I get another inject of cash tomorrow...! Guess all that training was worth it then, and the whizzing around at breakneck speed is just the easy bit... right...!?

SSAP

[Safeware]

i-c,

I have to be brutally honest and say that there are less people in the world that can fly a fast jet than can be an admin officer, so the pay reflects this.
Even as an engineer I have to agree. But there are other specialistaion who need the same. Isn't it curious how docs and dentists get "automatic" promotion?

Number of years ago I did my 5 min OCC talk on the need for professional pay. You know the one, you talk, no questions? Courting tomatoes as I do, I said that the only ones with a need for professional pay were pilots, engineers and ATC in that order, as they were the ones who really had the lives of others in their hands.

Still think that now.

And duck

sw

[The Swinging Monkey]

5206

Who are the Blunties?
Well, its quite simple really. Engineers are NOT, nor are ATC (nor is my desk officer probably) but its all those pen pushers who do very little (or usually nothing) to get the job done ie man-plane-mission. You know the sort 'Mr Jobsworth'

You must have seen them? they live in secluded, comfortable, well lit air-conditioned buildings on the station such as 'hand-brake house' and the 'rockery' etc. And Yes, I do consider many suppliers as blunties.

Sadly, it is these people who are now running the air farce. The little sac/cpl scribblie who says 'sorry Sir, you can't go on an operation 'cos your aft will run out 3 days before you RTB. Or the rock who insists on you doing your CCS the week before you go on deployment, 'just in case you get delayed Sir, then you'll be out of date'

Now come on, have you not had experience of that? If not, then you are an extremely lucky chap quite frankly.

It was one of the main reasons why I left, and why so many leave still. What is even sadder is that this comes from the very top. Station Cdrs and Sqn Cdrs should be telling these ar$eholes to sod off, and stop interfering with the important things such as flying and fixing aircraft.

Back to bed now, been up all night! Being a civvie director (yes a co-director) aint all its cracked up to be either, but at least I can (and often do) tell the 'blunties' here who interfere with production, exactly where to go!!

Kind regards and love to ALL engineers
TSM

[Bag Man]

Having lost a few mates in an a/c collision 2 years ago I am happy to include an element of danger money in my pay packet...

and if you want to disagree i suggest you aim your comments at the widows.

[jockspice]

Bag Man
Exactly as I was going to say and exactly the example I was going to give.
But does an extra bit of cash really make up for the increased risk of not coming home one day? Hard to say, but I expect if they stopped it, many would decide to fly in a job where getting shot at is not part of the job description.

[hanger_pilot]

bagman,

I can understand your point of view and sympathise accordingly, however your argument holds little water,..more infantry die in accidents every year compared to pilots. Does this mean that they should get the same form of danger pay? Or should they just get on with the job that they signed up to do?

[Tourist]

Hanger Pillock

Very basic misunderstanding of statistics there.
There may be more infantry dying in accidents, yes, but how many infantrymen are there compared to aircrew.
You chance of being one of the unfortunate aircrew is vastly greater

In case that is still too confusing
which odds would you rather go for if your life depended on it
20in 100000 or 4 in 300

incidently, do you buy lottery tickets?

[Bob Viking]

Not normally one for the controversial slagging match type posts but just a couple of quick points:
1. Try getting hold of a blunty before 08:30, after 11:30, before 13:30 or after 16:00 or any other time they feel like having a chinwag or having a cup of tea.
2. Im very sorry but flying an aeroplane is a hell of a lot harder than sitting at a desk and I think deserves some sort of financial recompense (I am definitely not talking about gingers here).
I realise I am now going to get slate horrifically and will climb back in my box but why do we have the same arguments day after day?!
BV.

....incoming!

[hanger_pilot]

To the gobby tourist that obviously feels a bit threatened...

What have odds got to do with it??? Simple answer...money!

You cannot belittle the danger of being in the infantry simply becasue there are more of them. I'm sure they would love to get danger pay but the fact is that no government would be able to pay for it.

In the end, you join to do the job, you know what the job is before you join, you know what the pay is before you join. Unlike doctors, dentists, Engineers, etc you get trained to do the job, ie given the transferable skills that enable you to get a job with virgin that you then hang over the heads of the forces that results in retention pay (which I have no problem with).

As a matter of interest, if your associating flying pay with danger, should it be realted to the aircraft you fly (more accidents - more money?).

Should you get it when not on a flying tour?

[Tourist]

Hanger Pillock

Infantrymen do get danger money.
They get paid quite a lot for what they do, i.e. a dangerous and arduous, but not particularly difficult job skill wise, precisely because it is dangerous and unpleasant and nobody would do it if it were paid as much as a civvy labourer for example.

Pilots however are paid less than their civvy counterparts with at least comparable skills required, whilst doing a more dangerous job.

And yes you should give flying pay on a ground tour, otherwise it would be more difficult to remind blunties that we are better than them, and I wouldn't be able to keep my Porsche and yacht.

[shandyman]

Touchee (sorry for spelling) . . . porsche and yacht. Brilliant if I may say so . . .brings a chuckle to an old an wisened WSOp on nights who has just received the higher rate of afore-mentioned flying pay and having spent more than my fair share of time over the sand pit . . .feel I deserve it!

[hanger_pilot]

Tourist,

you really have a pretty high opion of yourself don't you? The boys must like the 'I'm better than you attitude'.
Well liked are you?....probably not.

Anyway, besides the rude name calling which must go down well in the mess, answer the questions....

If flying pay is related to danger should pilots who fly 'safer' aircraft get paid less;

Why (seriously) should pilots get 'danger pay' from flying a desk.

This is your chance to justify yourself to others...dont be a ****. If you cant justify it you can take yout porsche and .....

[16 blades]

Hanger_Nob,

Tourist doesn't think he's better than the rest of US - he thinks he's better than YOU, which we all are.

We get flying pay because we are F**cking great, extra hard, and chicks dig us.

If you are jealous of Tourists Porsche and Yacht, or my TVR and small fleet of exotic motorcycles, then perhaps you should have worked harder at school.

16B

[Runaway Gun]

I wish I could afford a TVR, and I'm on flying pay...

[ZH875]

16 Blades, If flying was difficult, the groundcrew would be doing it.

aircrew, you should remember that the automatic pilot was invented circa 1943, the automatic groundcrew has not yet been invented, so who has the hardest job.

Maybe it is you who should have studied harder at school, any thicko can look fat in a growbag, but it takes brains to be a techie.

Waiting for incoming insults without logical reasoning behind....

[hanger_pilot]

16 Blades,

Good answer baring in mind that youve no idea who i am or what my quals are (flying or accademic).

Resorting to insults is the easy way of avioding a sensible conversation. So why dont you justify your flying pay instead of showing your true intelliectual ability (by the way who switched your computer on for you).

Well, can you answer the questions or not????

1. If flying pay is danger pay, should it be related to aircraft type?

2. Why should you get it for doing a desk job?

[serf]

still no answer from tourist or 16

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I didn't think it was danger pay; I thought it was to reflect that the job was pretty advanced, pretty technical, and pretty well-paid in the civilian sector.

Hence if you fly a "safer" aircraft, you still get the same amount because you'd be earning more doing the civilian equivalent job; and if your jet is safer, someone in an "unsafe" aircraft can still stack into it, right? ;)

Likewise, if you're doing a ground tour, you should get it because said ground tour requires an aircrew mate to do it. If it doesn't, then someone with complex perishable skills shouldn't be doing it, and if you removed flying pay for it, no-one would do it and people would leave if you forced them into it.

I think a good reply to the autopilot comment would be to ask how many fin navs would happily go into combat with a computer in the front instead of a pilot.

At the end of the day, to go back to one of the first comments on this thread to do with "doing the job they signed up for;" I enjoy doing the job I signed up for, and part of the terms I looked at as I signed up stated that I was paid more for doing it than a similarly aged and qualified supplier or controller.

I don't understand why people moan about people being paid more for their job. I signed up for this, and I'm very glad of my (still relatively meagre) flying pay; and there's no reason why anyone complaining about it can't stick their papers in to go to OASC and have a crack at it themselves. If you don't have any wish to do the job, then you don't have any right to moan about how much it pays. I don't want to be a stockbroker, so I don't give a s*** that they outearn me; can't we all think like that?

[theharpoon]

spoke to the chief blunty in handbrake house the other day and was told it was "retention and recruitment" pay

[L J R]

Well comme on guys (or Gals.... PC you know nowerday and all...) 16 blades, ZH something, Hanger, Tourist et al...


Tell me how good you are really.

Some of us don't get Flying Pay BUT STILL FLY MIL Fast Jets....
.

[16 blades]

Me? I'm ****e - that's why I'm not flying Harriers!

What, you mean this is a serious discussion thread, and not just a placeholder for Banter??

Oh, well, if you insist.....

Flying Pay is quite badly named, in my opinion. The concept behind it is the same as the concept for all Armed Forces remuneration - in that a representative pay rate for an 'equivalent' civilian job is considered, then the ubiqitous 'X-factor' is added to account for the exigencies of service life.

Except that, with Military aircrew, that formula was found to be lacking, since the 'equivalent' civilian job (which doesn't include using weapons or getting shot at) attracts a substantially higher salary. Coupled with the fact that the skills we are taught are easily transferrable to the civilian market, meant that some sort of recompense was in order if the Forces were not to lose one of their most expensive investments early in their carreers.

Hence Flying Pay is a RETENTION initiative - not a particularly good one, since airline salaries have long since overtaken what the govt can afford to pay. But that is the reasoning behind it, making it irrelevant whether you are on a front-line tour or desk-bound. You still have the skills and the flying hours to take with you, should you choose to do so.

16B

[Tourist]

16 Blades shame on you!

I can't believe you gave in to those egregious people who would make this thread a place of reasoned debate.
Gone is the banter.
I hope you feel dirty!:sad:

Quite simply, I deserve flying pay and that goes double for anyone who has to fly with me!

Incidentally, ZH875, re your autopilot comment. The sewer was invented back in the mists of time in north west india, and just as I am still better at flying than my circa 1943 autopilot, you appear vastly more effective than the sewer at spouting sh1t.:p

[BEagle]

Top banter!

[allan907]

Beagle I take issue with you there. What has preceded in the last few pages isn't banter - it's vicious, uneducated, self-destructive crap from people who should know better.

Earlier in the piece I wrote that I was the MOD staff officer responsible for writing the revised Airmen Aircrew pay structure in 1989 (under direction from a GD 1* who had got his orders from the Treasury) and got nothing for my trouble than some unintelligent low life spilling his invective onto the computer screen. I resolved not to add to this thread after that but the backbiting and school-yard name calling has gone beyond the pale.

Flying pay ought to be paid for as long as the recipient is available and willing to fill a flying appointment. Flying pay should cease when the individual no longer wishes to fly and does everything on God's earth to escape a flying tour (such as the Master AEOp at ISK who had not flown for something like 30 years). That is an abuse of the system.

When I was in MOD the rationale was quite clear. It was for RETENTION primarily and also recognised the additional skills and perceived danger required to be aircrew.

You might not like 'blunties' but they nevertheless have a role to play in the team called the Royal Air Force. Some 'blunties' are there purely because they did not have the medical category to be aircrew but accepted a lesser role because they wanted to contribute to that team effort. Some of us actually achieved pilot qualifications after leaving!

Perhaps it is because the RAF is shrinking, or perhaps the 'wrong' sort of people have been recruited over the past 20 years or so (mostly I don't think so) that is causing this unsavoury incestuous savagery. Whatever; it isn't doing anything for teamwork.

So, Beags, banter is clever, witty, acerbic and generally makes some very valid points. What we have seen lately is none of that. Grow up everyone.

[hanger_pilot]

Tourist,

for once we agree......I believe any one that flies with you should get double the danger..I mean flying pay.

[BEagle]

allan907, RTFQ. Or rather answer.

My reference to banter was a comment upon Tourist's riposte to ZH875, not an overall comment on this thread. Some of which is indeed rather puerile as you quite rightly say.

And yes, I don't like 'blunties'; however, professional officers of non-GD branches are a totally different kettle of fish! Not all admin types are 'blunt' by any means. Also, one of the sharpest guys with the driest sense of humour I ever knew wasn't aircrew - he was a Suppler. His wind-up on S/L Ops at Wattisham over the latters daft request for a plug-in 'Kojak' light for his car was a joy to behold! But his skill in sorting out his loggie assets on Taceval was a touch of genius!

Your point re. Flying Pay is spot on. Why should some seagull (creature which avoids flying if at all possible) receive FP when deliberately avoiding flying duties? I knew a bloke at Valley who had a monthly allocation of Hunter hours which he never used - and hadn't done for years. But he still received top rate FP......

Glad that you managed to gain flying qualifications after leaving - hope you enjoy whatever field of flying that is.

[NFI]

Services are a big company and the system is not geared up to review the pay of all individuals. If you recieve extra pay for flying, even though you are on a ground tour then so be it.
If they stop it, the arguement will not go away it will then be "I should get more than him because " - My aeroplane has four engines. - I am more productive as I drop more bombs. - My plane is bigger than yours. etc...
Once the money machine takes it away you will never get it back.

I would be more pissed off about overtime. Some people get cushy jobs with time off for sport, education etc while others have to put in extra hours to get the task done. Working in the civil aviation bussiness I still work extra hours, breed into me from my service days, but get paid for it. Flying pay or X-factor pay comes no where near the level of Overtime pay.

[Tourist]

allan.

As I am sure you are aware, none of us here have any control over whether or not we get flying pay, how much it is etc or even whether we deserve it.
Under these circumstances why try to spoil other peoples fun.
Let other people hurl abuse. Nobody has to sit and take it, they can just log off.

Everyone hates a spoilsport, especially people claiming to be ex MOD staff officers. (not something I'd own up to! must be this new big brother, reality tv, confessional society we now live in.)

Feel free not to participate further in the discussion.
Bye!!

Oh, and Hanger Pillock that was my point and my joke you cretin

[spinstallaeropfl]

I agree with Tourist. Receiving top whack flying pay is all about running fast cars, zooming around on 2 wheels (top weekend weather for that!) and of course sailing off on one's yacht for the summer hols.... without it, I would have to leave and give up all the other fun things like blasting around the Highlands and Islands at breakneck speed and chatting up chicks at airshows.

SSAP

[hanger_pilot]

tourist,

I'm all confused now....did you mean that it was that you're dangerous and were joking abou it? When I said I agree with you I wasn't joking. I've had a quick look at some of your other contributions to these forums and its safe to say you haven't actually contributed an intelligent word to any of them. your the joke cretin.

[Matrix Marauder]

HP,

I assume you feel that your automatic promotion to 2 ½ , whilst aircrew do not, is warranted???!!

Or is it that your chip on your shoulder will not go away!!

Why is it that we have more AEOs in the FAA than aircraft engines? (And Merlin has three per aircraft!) And exactly what do you do that is demanding, your lads do the work not you! Unlike Aircrew!!

[Tourist]

Hanger Pillock

"I've had a quick look at some of your other contributions to these forums and its safe to say you haven't actually contributed an intelligent word to any of them"

I am so glad you noticed. The effort has all now been worthwhile. I feel validated.I would like to thank my supporters, without whom none of this meaningless babble would be possible. The strains placed upon me by the need to keep my oracle-like aviation knowledge hidden have been great, but now somehow justified by the fact that someone, no matter how lowly, has noticed.

If you want reasoned educated debate then what on earth do you keep replying to me for? Am I actually getting to you that much that you require the last word? How childish. The idea that you are wasting your easter leave engaged in banter you aren't even enjoying makes my day. Thank you.
If you want a cognitive challenge, go and debate with the clever people like ORAC and Beagle, they seem to have limitless knowledge and patience.

Incidentally, I was going for self deprecating humour with the flying comment, but it didn't seem to work so if you don't mind I'll go back to abrasive and egotistical..:ok:

[hanger_pilot]

MM

typical of someone in a grow back to speak without knowledge.

I do not have automatic promotion, and nor does anyone else under the 3TC - if you dont know what that means I suggest you look it up.

Regardless what you think an AEO does on a squadron (which is the only place you see him/her work) AEOs can normally only expect 2 or 3 jobs on a squadron - therefore you don't know what they do most of the rest of the time.

Maybe you should do a little more research before gobbing off. Perhaps you should pull your head out of the crewroom (or your ass) and ask someone.

[BEagle]

"Is this the right room for an argument?"

"I've told you once....."

"No you didn't......!"

"Just a minute - did you want 5 minutes or the full half hour?"

;)

[timex]

Anyway, this retention pay we get. ALL specialists get extra money, be they SF, Aircrew or various others. This is not the X factor.

Do we/they deserve it, yes if not we would all leave for better wages in the commercial market.

Is it danger money? Fairly debatable, but dont try and compare what we do with the guys on the ground that is insulting to them.

[Matrix Marauder]

Hanger Pillock,

So you did not get automatic promotion to Lt Cdr? Are you on preserved rights? Or are you full of s**ite?
I know when 3TC came in; so did you?
If you do more than 1-2 Sqn Job (that is rare!!) you will spend the rest of your time wasting everybody’s money at Abbey Wood or on exchange, running IPTs with no user knowledge or common sense. You make out you do 2-3 jobs on a squadron you must have done well!!! Many of your branch see the squadron jobs as a pain in the a**se, more of a necessity for career profile than anything else, and yes I do work with your lot outside the squadron environment! Perhaps you should consider who you are slagging off before you assume they have no knowledge!
Chopped aircrew by any chance……..
Must go and spend some of my well earned Flying pay!!

[Tourist]

Hello Timex, how's the new uniform fitting you?

Hanger Pillock, oh go on talk to me

[timex]

Hello Timex, how's the new uniform fitting you?

Not too bad, Just have to look at my pay slip and the pain goes away!! New job excellant.:ok:

[16 blades]

I guess we're back to the banter then......

I did try...

16B

[hanger_pilot]

Oh for gods sake,

Is this what you call banter?

As for MM, why dont you read your last post and then read my repy (get someone to help you with the long words).

This all started becasue I dared to ask a couple of questions about flying pay which seems to have been interpreted as questioning the size of your man-hood (please tourist/16B tell me about your TVR again). Does banter always turn to abuse when threatened???

Since I'm gettting nowhere here, you win I'll leave you to tell each other how good you all are. See you in the crew room.

[spinstallaeropfl]

Hey Hanger Queen

Are you a Pompey fan...? I am, and a season ticket holder to boot... I bought one, yes you've guessed it, with a small portion of flying pay...!

SSAP

[16 blades]

Since I'm gettting nowhere here, you win I'll leave you to tell each other how good you all are.

Woo-Hoo! Do I get a gold star?

please tourist/16B tell me about your TVR again

If you insist, Hanger_Banger - it's lovely thank you very much, and more than makes up for my small penis.

16B

[ZH875]

Are you a Pompey fan...? I am, and a season ticket holder to boot... I bought one, yes you've guessed it, with a small portion of flying pay...!I would have thought the change from buying a Mars Bar would buy a Pompey season ticket.

[Tourist]

And we haven't even got onto what we RN do with the lovely retention bonuses yet!!

:E

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Flying Pay;

Just been to a funeral of an aircrew mate.....:(

Make you lot seem childish..he died for his country doing what he loved!!!

RIP!!!!

Regards..SFS

[Griz]

Did what HP suggested and typed 3TC into Google, apparently it's an anti-HIV treatment...
Now I'm really confused :confused:

[Front Seater]

16 Blades,

Still pi$$ing myself laughing - well worth your gold star (at this rate Hanger Pilot will offer you the Golden Rivet as well!)! Normally it is the Fisheads that get a huge bite from the Crabs after some well timed banter, but you have done a superb job 16 B - especially over such a triv thread that really isn't going to change anything.

As to the thread- whatever -I would certainly not begrudge, question or make issue out of someone elses gain.

[albert the first]

Not meaning to add too much fuel on the fire but I have just been to a funeral of a mate in Tamworth and he never got flying pay!

[Front Seater]

Albert,

I am sorry mate these kind of days are never easy and when put into the context of life I totally agree - a very trivial thread indeed that is going nowhere.

Hang in there.

[Filthy]

:{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ This still isn't getting me any top tips on how to battle with Handbrake House on the original issue! THANKS

It's all Filth Anyway!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

This all started becasue I dared to ask a couple of questions about flying pay which seems to have been interpreted as questioning the size of your man-hood (please tourist/16B tell me about your TVR again).

I used to drive a Lotus, which was noticably smaller than a TVR. I also made what I thought was a very very sensible, well reasoned, post on the subject of flying pay. Why no reply to me, HP?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Alan907,
you wrote Sir.............
'Earlier in the piece I wrote that I was the MOD staff officer responsible for writing the revised Airmen Aircrew pay structure in 1989, and got nothing for my trouble than some unintelligent low life spilling his invective onto the computer screen'

Well you poor old soul, how childish and awfully 'un-officer like' calling me a low life. What a typical wet responce from a typical wet staff officer. Did you run off and tell your 1* what the nasty man said about you? Grow up man.

you also wrote.........
'Flying pay ought to be paid for as long as the recipient is available and willing to fill a flying appointment. Flying pay should cease when the individual no longer wishes to fly and does everything on God's earth to escape a flying tour (such as the Master AEOp at ISK who had not flown for something like 30 years). That is an abuse of the system'

Well you are quite right there Sir, it is an absolute abuse and I couldn't agree more with you. But I notice how you pick up on the MAEOp. What about the hundreds of knackered old V-bomber crews, who havn't flown for God knows how long? What about the old Flt Lt at Waddo, whose last flying tour was on Twin Pins? They still receive flying pay - most of them spec aircrew flying pay of £100+ per day. I notice how you carefully skipped over that and concentrated on slagging off NCO aircrew. Shame on you Sir, it clearly shows what you think about them, and probably why you were responsible in shafting them a few years back.

Your right, I don't like blunties, infact I'de go so far as to say that virtually all of them are an utter waste of space! And oh Sir, you talk some carp about being 'part of the team' God help the team, thats all I can say! Most blunties are responsible for destroying 'the team' along with the team spirit.

BEags' I hope you are taking note of this fool old boy, 'cos if your not, he's going to 'tell teach' and get you (and me) and damned good thrashing I fear!! (I'll get caruthers to get the Grouse ready!!)

Finally Alan, now that you have arisen to the dizzy heights of what, PPL? firstly, very well done. Secondly, just remember that when your little 'Pop Pop' engine conks out over the ogin, or your stuck up a mountain or whatever, the little grunt that decends from the big yellow egg whisk, will undoubtebly be an NCO. Try being nice to him, theres a good chap. You might just need him one day, so don't tell him about your past!

Switches safe, and back to bed now,
Kind regards to all (even the odd bluntie!)
TSM

[16 blades]

Filth,

Sorry old chap but it seems like you are royally screwed. Handbrake House has traditionally been unhelpful in matters of flying pay (cos they don't get it), and I believe the answer you've already had that went something like "It's additional pay, therefore we can do what the fu{k we like with it" is pretty much official policy. You might want to address it to the herein self-identified architect of your impending reaming.

Other than that, I agree with comments that this thread is going nowhere. This bleating about "You get paid more than me, whinge whinge whinge" tends to repeat itself here about every 6 months, and always gets nowhere, apart from some good bluntie-baiting banter opportunities.

And I also agree that there are more important things to occupy our minds at this juncture. I therefore apologise if any of my frivolities have offended sensibilities.

16B

[emergov]

I love flying pay. Have done since I first got it.

But, I didn't join for the pay. I joined because Cessnas are boring, and so are 747s. I would have joined up to fly for food and beer, and I suspect most young mil pilots are the same.
Of course, once you get a life / Ducati / yacht / wife / mortgage, the extra pay comes in very handy...

So, who are the senior executive decision makers in the Air Force? Pilots. Old ones, with mortgages, wives, children in boarding school and golf club memberships.

The 'justification' is neither here nor there. Flying pay is here to stay, because the blokes signing the briefs to the Minister get it. Junior pilots will join up anyway because it's cool to be a pilot, and by the time they care, they'll have a lifestyle commensurate with their extra pay. Circle complete.

I think it's great.

[average pilot]

:ok: emergov, I'm with you and I don't get flying pay, not since getting my FRI and joining the PA spine anyway.............

[Bag Man]

I think it's great too. Especially when u + FRI.

Don't understand why the fish-heads won't talk about it in the bar :-)

Q Why did flying pay exist when there were no problems with recruiting?

[16 blades]

Once again - for RETENTION

16B

[emergov]

16B,

I wonder how effective it is, though. Aircrew walk out the door every day, flying pay or no - sometimes to worse paying jobs.
I'll say it again, I think flying pay is a GREAT idea, but even I am not sure it represents good value for money. It is difficult to quantify what percentage of mil pilots remain for the flying pay, or more importantly, how many more years they stay - but isn't that what a return of service obligation is for?
Loads of guys leave the services the minute they can, and no amount of experience-based flying pay increases will stop them.

Maybe the answer is to double flying pay, and count the resignations in the next 6 months. Then at least we'll have some solid data. Actually, we could double flying pay every 6 months until pilots stop leaving....

Of course one or two guys would still have to leave every now and then to provoke a further flying pay increase, but the idea has merit.

[BEagle]

How many people would stay if brat-breeding allowance was binned?

With the Services ever shrinking, the lieklihood of being posted from one corner of the UK to another is disappearing fast, apart from OOA dets, of course.

So how can the scales of Boarding School Allowance be justified?

[NFI]

BEagle

Difficult one there is no justification for keeping it. Its like flying pay no one can work out why it started, just fight to keep any allowance you can claim. Get married, have kids, claim allowance, easy.

In civiy strret I get no allowances, have to pay health insurance and invest in my own pension. I am not moaning, as I have the advantage of if I do not like my situation then I move on.

Thats why you must fight to keep any allowance as you do not have the option to vote with your feet like me.

[Mightycrewseven]

This could have serious consequences for a lot of us. Are you saying that even if a NCA chap started IOT before Apr 03 and graduated on to the middle or higher flying pay rate (as were the terms that were in place), retrospectively they are likely to now lose that pay and start from scratch i.e. from graduation date or award of new flying brevet. If this is the case, it will have major financial issues for a lot of guys, including me. Even if it is their mistake am I also expected to pay back the difference?

Filthy, can you let me know the source of your information and give me a contact number as this is news to me (and probably quite a few of my work colleagues.)

If it is only rumour then please don't frighten me like that!

M7 :uhoh:

[PlasticCabDriver]

Although aircrew tend to get suck in a "posting rut", ie Lyneham for ever, Benson/Aldergrove/Benson, Odiham for ever etc, for our ground based chums there is indeed that element of instability. There are still (for now at least) enough RAF stations that a supplier/ATC etc etc could go through an entire career and never serve at the same one twice, from Cornwall to the Shetlands, plus Germany, Cyprus etc.

To get rid of BSA would be like lighting the blue touch paper, there are a suprising number of people who are staying just for that.

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Beagle/NFI

You are both talking out of your @rses about BSA. I have had 4 moves in 4 years and my 2 kids would have suffered if I had not packed them off to BS. Even in this much smaller Air Force, there is still a good chance of being moved around so frequently that it prevents children from getting a stable education.

HPT

[16 blades]

Emergov,

See a previous post of mine for my take on your comments. As I said, it started as a retention initiative, but as the economy has grown exponentially over the last 3 decades, HMG has not had the funds to keep up with airline salaries. In the 60's (and arguably the 70s) the Govt were richer than everybody else - now the opposite is true.

16B

[Padhist]

What a sad thread this is! Collegues slagging collegues. As I see it you are all on Film Star salaries You are all in the same or similar service and you knew what you signed up for. Most of you have the choice of leaving.

In my day, I certainly was never aware of any jealousy between ground crew and aircrew and any attempt for one to do without the other would be ridiculous. Maybe flying pay was so low it did not pose a problem between us.

For my part I enjoyed my 20 years even though for many of them I could not afford a car. As for the work and the danger. It never felt like work and I have suffered more from falling from a ladder in retirement than I ever did in the RAF.Despite a few tricky moments.

Before the more critical of you think I am in my dotage and am possibly talking of the Royal Flying Corps let me point out that I can list Spitfire, Hurricane, Canberra, Vulcan, DC7 Mosquito, Hornet amongst my aircraft.

For the degree waving aircrew among you, I can only say, I failed my PHd at St Saviours Elementary School. But still managed to become an A1 pilot instructor,and a Command Instrument Rating Examiner... And did some Deck landings in the FAA.

I would also point out, that because line pilots have higher pay rates it does not follow that every service pilot will be ably to transfer at will. Be happy with what you have unless you are certain about the green grass

[Tourist]

Gosh Padhist, your pen1s must be enormous!

What you were or were not aware of says more about how much attention you were paying than reality I feel.

I'm off to spend my film star wage......

I do believe that the pay in your era, not to mention the working conditions, were of a somewhat different order

Yours Tourist,
gash line pilot on many a/c types, those who can do, those who can't teach.:ok:

[engineer(retard)]

Padhist

You were lucky, in my day I had to get up half an hour before I went to bed, pay for the privelige of going to work and lick lake out wit tongue.

You try and tell the youth of today that. They won't believe you.

:)