Qantaslink [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Johhny Utah

31st Mar 2005, 03:17

I'm sure that many others have also received this from PilotstffCV.com, but here it is anyway. A sad day, really, but at least if some of the lower rungs get made less attractive, and GA is taxed into extinction, there may yet eventually be a REAL shortgae of pilots (in my lifetime!)

31 March 2005

RE: Change in Eastern Australia Airlines' recruitment process

QantasLink has recently reviewed its procedures for First Officer Initial Pilot training. As a result new pilot recruits will be required to possess a Dash 8 endorsement as a pre-employment qualification.

The review highlighted the fact that this process is in line with industry practice and will allow QantasLink to better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirements.

QantasLink First Officer initial training (that is, the Dash 8 Ground School and Simulator Training) has traditionally been conducted in house by the company after a First Officer has been formally employed.

We wish to advise you that from May 2005, Eastern Australia Airlines will be changing their recruitment criteria. From this date First Officer initial training will be conducted by a Preferred Training Supplier and will be required as a pre-employment qualification. Consequently the majority of the cost of the Endorsement Program will be borne by the applicant. However a component of the cost will be subsidised by Eastern.

The actual recruitment process is unchanged (and is detailed on StaffCV). If you are successful through the process you will receive a letter advising that you have been placed on Active Hold.

When the next intake is required Eastern, will contact pilots on Active Hold and advise them of a Ground School date. A Conditional Letter of Employment (CLOE) will support this process. Essentially the CLOE states that you have a job with QantasLink provided you have satisfied the condition of a Dash 8 Endorsement on your pilot's licence.

We are aware that these changes may affect your interest in working for Eastern. If you are no longer interested in applying for employment with us please remove your application from StaffCV.

Yours sincerely,

Captain Mark Davey
Flight Operations Manager and Chief Pilot

Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Ltd
ABN 77 001 599 024

View Eastern StaffCV.com

QANTASLINK SELF FUNDED DASH 8 ENDORSEMENT
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

1 - How will the system work? The recruitment process as we currently know it will remain unchanged up to the point when a candidate is successful and placed on Active Hold. When a vacancy exists the pilot is advised and is provided with a Conditional Letter of Employment (CLOE) that is dependent upon having a valid Dash 8 Endorsement. We will have arrangements with a training provider who will be able to offer a Dash 8 Endorsement at competitive rates. We can also offer competitive finance with the Qantas Credit Union should it be required.

2 - What if I already have a Dash 8 endorsement? In instances such as these, QantasLink will provide in house simulator training at the expense of QantasLink to bridge any training gaps.

3 - Why has QantasLink created such a system? The "pay for your own endorsement" is very much an industry norm. This change will enable QantasLink to continue to contend successfully in a highly competitive market.

4 - How much will the endorsement cost me? At this point in time we are working with a number of potential suppliers to select a preferred supplier that will enable us to offer a subsided endorsement program. On this basis we expect the cost range to be $13,000 to $18,000 per endorsement.

5 - What if I fail the endorsement? Do I get my money back?
No

6 - Would I have a guaranteed job once I have the Endorsement? Yes, provided you have successfully been through our recruitment process and been issued a Conditional Letter of Employment. Once this is satisfied the Letter of Employment becomes active and you are provided with a full time job as a Dash 8 First Officer with QantasLink.

7 - What if I struggle through the training and require extra training in the Sim? Will this effect my employment and cost extra money? Your position as a First Officer is secure pending satisfactory completion of the Dash 8 endorsement training. By satisfactory, we mean that you progress at a rate within expected norms. QantasLink will be following your progress and be aware of any additional training requirements. If extra training is required it must be at the candidate's expense. This will be paid to the course provider and be visible on your training record.

8 - What if I have trouble during Line Training? Does the company assist me in getting through? From the commencement of Line Training you are a full employee. Normal processes will be applied to any candidates who struggle to achieve standards at this point.

9 - Would I be expected to resign from my current job in order to commence the Dash 8 ground school and endorsement training? Not at all, you are welcome to maintain your present employment right up until you commence employment with QantasLink and begin your Line Training.

10 - Could I source my own endorsement? The endorsement program we recommend is subsidised by QantasLink. Additionally, the QantasLink recommended program trains you to our procedures and standards. If a candidate were to be trained by an unknown endorsement supplier, any re-training would be at the individual's expense.

11 - Who is the training provider? We are currently going through a tender process to identify a training provider. We anticipate this will be finalised by mid May 2005 and we will advise the location of the training provider on StaffCV at that time.

12 - Will there also be a bond associated with the system? There is no bond associated with the system. A candidate is free to leave at any point in either the pre-employment or post-employment stage.

13 - Why Self Funded Training and not a bond? Bonds only serve to protect a company against insufficient return of service and poor return on investment.

14 - Do the minimum criteria for consideration as a pilot differ under the Self Funded Training model? The minimum criteria and indeed, the recruitment process, remains unchanged under the Self Funded Model.

15 - Would I get an allowances whilst under training? No, QantasLink will not be providing any remuneration prior to employment

No worries mate

31st Mar 2005, 03:24

Who is the training provider? We are currently going through a tender process to identify a training provider. We anticipate this will be finalised by mid May 2005 and we will advise the location of the training provider on StaffCV at that time.

Last time I looked the only operator of a Dash 8 sim in OZ was Qantas.

Jaguar7777

31st Mar 2005, 04:48

13,000 to 18,000....

i bet its closer to the latter, plus 4 weeks or so in a hotel somewhere.

:mad:

No worries mate

31st Mar 2005, 05:04

Spot on Jag.

20 hours at say $800 per hour = $16,000

Plus motel on a weekly rate 4x $300 = $1200

Plus a car(rent a bomb)= $500

Plus fuel for car 4 x $30 = $120

Food say at $40 per dayx 28 = $1120

Total: $18,940

That only covers your training, don't forget you still have to pay for all your other bills and if you are a family man you still have to provide for them.

And for that you get a $42,000 a year job living in the most expensive city in Australia. And if you are lucky you may have a command in 3-5 years.

Me thinks REX and the other regionals are about to be flooded with applications and in 12 months time Eastern will be screaming for pilots.

chief wiggum

31st Mar 2005, 05:42

Food say at $40 per dayx 28 = $1120

Dare say you will be SICK of Macca's at the end of the month!

One other thing you forgot is that SHOULD the training be in MEL instead of SYD, then you will have to pay to get to MEL as well.

And what GA employer is going to give you 4 weeks off to do a DHC-8 endorsement ?
A "conditional letter of Employment" probably will NOT make the endorsement tax deductable! (not too sure about that)

AND... the most important cost that you have forgotten is BEER!!! who EVEr heard of going 28 days without beer ? and $40 ain't gonna get you maccas AND beer!

No worries mate

31st Mar 2005, 06:36

Looks like the same goes at Sunstate.

This was sent to all Sunstate applicants today.

Qantaslink has recently reviewed its procedures for First Officer Initial Pilot training. As a result new pilot recruits will be required to possess a Dash 8 endorsement as a pre-employment qualification.

The review highlighted the fact that this process is in line with industry practice and will allow QantasLink to better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirements.

Qantaslink First Officer initial training (that is, Dash 8 Ground School and Simulator Training) has traditionally been conducted in house by the company after a First Officer has been formally employed.

We wish to advise you that from May 2005, Sunstate Airlines will be changing their recruitment criteria. From this date First Officer initial training will be conducted by a Preferred Training Supplier and will be required as a pre-employment qualification. Consequently the majority of the cost of the Endorsement Program will be borne by the applicant. However a component of the cost will be subsidised by Sunstate.

The Sunstate recruitment process is unchanged. We will contact successful applicants and advise them of a Ground School date. A Conditional Letter of Employment (CLOE) will support this process. Essentially the CLOE states that you have a job with Sunstate Airlines provided you have satisfied the condition of a current Dash 8 Endorsement on your pilot's licence.

We are aware that these changes may affect your interest in working for Sunstate. If you are no longer interested in applying for employment with us please remove your application from StaffCV.

Yours sincerely,

Captain Don Anderson
Flight Operations Manager and Chief Pilot

Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Ltd
ABN 82 009 734 703

View Sunstate StaffCV.com

QANTASLINK SELF FUNDED DASH 8 ENDORSEMENT
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

1 - How will the system work? The recruitment process as we currently know it will remain unchanged up to the point when a candidate is successful and placed on Active Hold. When a vacancy exists the pilot is advised and is provided with a Conditional Letter of Employment (CLOE) that is dependent upon having a valid Dash 8 Endorsement. We will have arrangements with a training provider who will be able to offer a Dash 8 Endorsement at competitive rates. We can also offer competitive finance with the Qantas Credit Union should it be required.

2 - What if I already have a Dash 8 endorsement? In instances such as these, QantasLink will provide in house simulator training at the expense of QantasLink to bridge any training gaps.

3 - Why has QantasLink created such a system? The "pay for your own endorsement" is very much an industry norm. This change will enable QantasLink to continue to contend successfully in a highly competitive market.

4 - How much will the endorsement cost me? At this point in time we are working with a number of potential suppliers to select a preferred supplier that will enable us to offer a subsided endorsement program. On this basis we expect the cost range to be $13,000 to $18,000 per endorsement.

5 - What if I fail the endorsement? Do I get my money back?
No

6 - Would I have a guaranteed job once I have the Endorsement? Yes, provided you have successfully been through our recruitment process and been issued a Conditional Letter of Employment. Once this is satisfied the Letter of Employment becomes active and you are provided with a full time job as a Dash 8 First Officer with QantasLink.

7 - What if I struggle through the training and require extra training in the Sim? Will this effect my employment and cost extra money? Your position as a First Officer is secure pending satisfactory completion of the Dash 8 endorsement training. By satisfactory, we mean that you progress at a rate within expected norms. QantasLink will be following your progress and be aware of any additional training requirements. If extra training is required it must be at the candidate's expense. This will be paid to the course provider and be visible on your training record.

8 - What if I have trouble during Line Training? Does the company assist me in getting through? From the commencement of Line Training you are a full employee. Normal processes will be applied to any candidates who struggle to achieve standards at this point.

9 - Would I be expected to resign from my current job in order to commence the Dash 8 ground school and endorsement training? Not at all, you are welcome to maintain your present employment right up until you commence employment with QantasLink and begin your Line Training.

10 - Could I source my own endorsement? The endorsement program we recommend is subsidised by QantasLink. Additionally, the QantasLink recommended program trains you to our procedures and standards. If a candidate were to be trained by an unknown endorsement supplier, any re-training would be at the individual's expense.

11 - Who is the training provider? We are currently going through a tender process to identify a training provider. We anticipate this will be finalised by mid May 2005 and we will advise the location of the training provider on StaffCV at that time.

12 - Will there also be a bond associated with the system? There is no bond associated with the system. A candidate is free to leave at any point in either the pre-employment or post-employment stage.

13 - Why Self Funded Training and not a bond? Bonds only serve to protect a company against insufficient return of service and poor return on investment.

14 - Do the minimum criteria for consideration as a pilot differ under the Self Funded Training model? The minimum criteria and indeed, the recruitment process, remains unchanged under the Self Funded Model.

15 - Would I get an allowances whilst under training? No, QantasLink will not be providing any remuneration prior to employment

Ralph the Bong

31st Mar 2005, 07:24

A modest family of 4 will chew through about $800 per week during your training (4 weeks at least). Add that to No worries mates $19,000.

Factor in loss of income over this period: $3-4,000.

No entitlement to dole either.

Ya looking at coming up with around $27,000 to tide you over during this period.

Dont forget to add in the opportunity cost on $27,000. Or the interest if you borrow.

All of a sudden, Q-Link is starting to seem like a very bad deal.

Put another way, let's just say on your $42,000 ya manage to SAVE $2000 per year (yeah, I know , stop laughing. No chance with a wife at part-time work, 2 kids and a $150,000 mortgage)IT WILL TAKE 15 YEARS TO RE-SAVE YOUR OUTLAY. F#$%^ that!! Use the money to self-train into a career that gives a decent return.

I love the way that these management jerks now expect pilots to continually part with more and more of the family wealth to add to their BoNu$ and subsidise the companies operation. I hope that no Q-LINk pilots have subsequent financial worries that distract them from keeping their mind on the job!

I heard from a Delta pilot in FRT some time ago that Delta Connetion pilots were so badly paid that they were eligible for welfare assistance if they had kids. When one guy did ask for his entitlements the manager's ( presumably as a measure of their 'decency') put out a memo that any Delta Connection pilot who claimed welfare would be sacked!!

Evidently these managers were very worried that the public might actually find out about the sh!t conditions that they gave their staff. Shame that the same concern did not extend to their pilots who were working 2 jobs (now common with even mainline US carriers) in order to put bread on the table!

:*

Daniel Beurich

31st Mar 2005, 08:54

Hmmm,

well if QLink want Dash-8 Endorsments, it will open up more employment chances for the pilots that do have experience and good training, willing to pay the price to get into an airline. Hard fact of the aviation industry today.

from what i gather from you guys, Once you pass the interviews, checks and apptitudes for QLink, you THEN have to pay THEM to get the endorsement? is this true? or do you already have to have the endorsment beofre you apply?

Also are QANTAS (mainline) the same, because i thought that they payed for endorsments for emplyed pilots themselves.

Does already having an endorsment on an aircraft in thee Q fleet, will it increase your chance of being emplyed?

Daniel

Brindabella

31st Mar 2005, 09:26

This is really sad.

This trend has been perfected by Southwest. Fortuntely Southwest pay considerably more than the likes of J* and VB. 2nd year pay on the boeing at Southwest is basic US$80,000 plus trip and duty rig bringing it to over US$90k (topping out at about US$137,000 for FO) while paying sustantially less tax.

OK....but to tell someone to get the type with such a tiny pay cheque at the end??? Australian airlines are stooping to a new low.

The sad thing is that most people, including myself will go overseas AGAIN and fly either a turboprop or jet on contract and make over AU$100k (most likely tax free) rather than subject ourselves to this ablsolute ass raping by the likes of these smaller (and larger) airlines. Sitting left behind are the lower time pilots that dont have the experience to get contract work over seas and who will GLADLY pay for these Type Ratings.

There will NEVER be a shortage of pilots willing to take this kind of abuse! NEVER!

No worries mate

31st Mar 2005, 10:00

So true Brindabella, just check out the ANA Dash 8 contract in Japan.

The biggest problem is how long before Qantas Mainline starts charging for their endorsements? I'm sure Qantas can use the reason;
3 - Why has QantasLink created such a system? The "pay for your own endorsement" is very much an industry norm. This change will enable QantasLink to continue to contend successfully in a highly competitive market.

And it won't be long before other companies use the same line.

To become an airline pilot (regional or major) is now going to cost you around $60000-$80000. Far cry from a few years back when you got your commercial, then an instrument rating/instructor rating, maybe paid for a PA31 or similar aircraft, spent a few years in GA and then you were rewarded with an airline job. Now it comes down to who has the biggest cheque book.

The monthly repayment on a $16000 loan over 5 years is $397.64.
If the FO's are on $42000 per year, their after tax wage per month is $2478.77.
After taking away the loan payment you get $2081.13.
Say $250 per week for rent(thats really cheap for SYD) you end up with $1081.13.
You still have to pay for groceries, phone, petrol etc etc.
Lets say they cost you another $250 per week (you buy "no name" brands) you are up for another $1000.
So after working hard for a month you end up with a big $81.13 per month to show for it.

Soulman

31st Mar 2005, 10:01

No worries mate,

Quick search of the internet revealed that the Ansett Simulators in Melbourne are capable of doing the Dash 8 endo aswell.

Not sure how that would go down with QF but?!?! :}

Cheers,

Soulman.

permFO

31st Mar 2005, 11:01

Mainline QF do charge for the endorsement but they call it a bond and you work it off pro-rata over three years. I could only cope with two years so they extracted the remaining bond out of the final payment. I don't know who Qantaslink they are going to get. Sure there are people who will be prepared to pay at the moment but any 18 year old looking at career options is not going to think flying is such a good deal. Just look at the money any decent tradesman can get. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that flying training has decreased sharply at all the major GA centres. The shortage of trade apprentices started in the 90's so apply that to aviation and I think in another 5-10 years a combination of pre-Armstrongs retiring and no feeder system will see the airlines looking for Government assistance to train pilots.

Ultralights

31st Mar 2005, 11:24

their after tax wage per month is $2478.77.

I am paying drivers to drive a 2 tonne VAN ! that much a FORTNIGHT! about your average pay for a courier driver!......

i am saddened to read that in the very near future, piloting skill will no longer be a factor in who is actually flying joe puplic around the world...... if only the public knew..... the spirit of Australia hey!

Shazzamed

31st Mar 2005, 11:37

$50,000 - $60,000 for CPL with ATPL theory, and then

$2000 - $3000 travel and accom for 1st job (including phone calls)

$3000 - $4000 for twin endorsement, and then

$8000 - $12000 for first turbine endorsement, and then

$2500 - $3000 IFR renewals and publications over 2-3 years

$1500 - $2500 travel to attend interviews/accom, and then

$460 to go through the process, and then, if successful

$20,000 for your rating

Total: under $100,000

Flying for EAA: Priceless!!

And it aint getting any cheaper.

For e.g. $200 dollars for a pilots licence is in your face hardcore penetration

Even the peanuts dont taste good anymore.

Shazzamed

N.W.O.F

31st Mar 2005, 11:38

This is a very sad day for the Australian Aviation Industry.

Jobs are now not awarded on merit and trust - but on how much money you are willing to go without in your LIFE!

It would be nice to think that an airline chose you based on your qualifications, experience and personality.

Qantaslink are close to the top of the food chain when it comes to pilot careers as far as I'm concerned, for others it is the top! As said in this thread it is the continual out-lay of money until one reaches such a position and the future of these pilots which is a grave concern. Today the cost of pilot training can be as much as $50,000. working in GA - doesn't give you much of a chance to make a dint it that loan. Endorsements on to something bigger C310, PA31 etc more than $1000, and to name a few other expenses - renewals, computers, documents and relocation costs.

As pilots concerned about this trend more is needed to be expressed to management involved.

The only way this is going to change is through the current pilots flying and the potential pilots wishing to fly for Qantaslink.

For those flying on the Dash 8's. What are you're thoughts on the subject? would you be in the same (flying) position if impossed a training fee? What are your thoughts on flying with a pilot who has been awarded the position based on his/her wallet capacity?

Ralph the Bong

31st Mar 2005, 11:38

Standard Industry Practice...

A real MBA term, if ever I heard one. Just chant the mantra S.I.P. and you will automatically get one mark. A bit like my Applied Maths teacher say that if you cant arrive at an answer, just draw an x-y axis and you will get 1 %... S.I.P..../

Hey, you management type dic kheads who dont fly, let me tell you about a very little known "standard industry practice":

You see, flying is one of those arcane professions and. as such, develops certain unique customs and practices that are peculiar only to the initiated. If fact, many socio-pyschologists recognise these behaviours as typical of an elite group fuctioning at the highest levels of human achievement. One of these practices is to 'insult' each other. This is a characteristic of the true aviation professional. When ever us Pilots see another professional who has performed at his or her best, we insult them. This is a 'standard industry practice'.

For example. A few weeks ago Kapt M and I saw each other at briefing in NRT. He looked at me and called me a see-you-en-tee. I called him a bee-you-em-spells-bum. We then both nodded and smiled at each other, that special arcane smile that is almost sceret as a mark of mutual respect between aviation professionals. You non-flying types are privilidged that I share this hidden aspect of our culture with you.

Another secret mark of respect is to spit into the face of another pilot, one whom is held in high regard. Consider this: to place your saliva on another mans face is an act of the deepest emotional and spirtual respect. This is an act that we pilots do when we meet someone whom we hold in the highest professional standing.

Another 'standard industry practice' is the 'kick in the balls'. You management , bean counter types may or may not have heard of this one. For example, of I did a real nice landing and this was witnessed by another crew, then they would say somthing like "hey, nice landing" and then kick me in the balls. A mark of sincere professional respect.

This is why, in the future, I can see a manager, highly regarded as an outstanding professional walking the corridors of power when a Pilot walks up to him and says "Hey, Geoff, you fcukwit" and then spits in his face and kicks him in the balls; an indication of true respect and sincere admiration.

Another is the "pliers, hanger and shoeing" : In this one, a group of Pilots take a member of those who have made the absolute top ranks of their profession and drag them behind a hanger by the nose by a pair of pliers and them proceed to boot their brains in with Blundstones. Hopi indian medicine men have long related the infliction of pain with spiritual develpoement and this is why we treat those we hold in full respect to this rather special form of personal advancement. So Margeret, Don and Mark, dont be surprised if some Pilots offer you this unique opportunity to participate in this previously hiden form of "standard Industry Practice", just out of respect, of course.

Man, we admire you guys. we think you are all a pack of cnuts.

With respect,

Ralph.

:ok: .

Baron Captain ?

31st Mar 2005, 11:51

Goes to show that its not just in 1989 that there were SCABS.....As if anyone is dumb enough to take up a job with Eastern/Sunstate then they are definitely worth running over on a zebra crossing!!!!!

So why can't the AFAP do something about this????
This is just absolutely pathetic.....

I am going to keep aplying to them so when they ask me for an interview I will quite happily tell them "To go practise safe sex!!"

So if Eastern are struggling to keep pilots now...what do they think this will do for them?????.....Bloody dumb arses!!!!!

Ultralights

31st Mar 2005, 11:52

If/ When paying for endorsments becomes Standard Industry paractice, or better still Worlds BEST Practice, me foresees a severe shortage of flight crew me thinks!

who in their right mind would train for a career in which you will never recieve any real income?

Just imagine! a plumber, paying YOU astronomical amounts of $$ to do your plumbing for you!
Airlines and aviation must be the ONLY indusrty on the Planet where the resources needed to conduct your business actually PAY you!

first, the emergence of the LLC, the Death of the Concord era. and now employees PAYING thier bosses to work for them........ aviation is definatly progressing in the right direction.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :\

Speedlever

31st Mar 2005, 12:00

Where do I sign up ????????? I mean, how long do I have to wait to pay 20K ( round figures ) to work a six sector, six day roster,get management who have no regard for the EBA, oh, but did I forget,,,,,,,it's a Dash 8 boys.

It was without question, great training, great fun, great to move on, but for 20K? It's time to make a stand. Sunstate and Eastern are screaming for pilots. So much so, that if you fail the sim ride but pass the interview, you get to do it again.

Withdraw the application from staff cv, they can't get drivers now, and it's going to get worse. This isn't a jet, it's a big PA31.

psycho joe

31st Mar 2005, 14:01

If the mining industry tried to pull this **** on its workers the whole friggin country would shut down.

How is it that we have the most limp wristed, purse carrying, nancy boy union in the whole damn country.

I spoke to an AFAP nancy about this when it first started and the response was that unless the majority of card carrying union members lodged a formal complaint then the AFAP felt it had no authority to act. In other words if the captains who are already in there don't give a f#%k then the union couldn't give a F#%K either.

And who are these brilliant managers who think that they can solve their pilot retention problems by treating employees like ****. Do you have to do a degree to learn that or is it that any F#%kWIT can be in airline management.

Don't take it, if EVERYONE picked up the phone and abused the AFAP / government / current affairs programs then someone will have to eventually turn up the heat on these companies.

Sir Kingsford Smith would be turning in his grave.

cunningham

1st Apr 2005, 00:23

What a joke !!

Why don't they implement a pro rata bond, which is a much fairer system for all concerned.

Why aren't they requiring Call centre staff, Flight attendents etc. to pay for their training? That's right !! it's way to easy to screw pilots !!

No wonder so many pilots walk around the terminals with their heads down, its embarassing when you realise that 90% of your pax are earning more than you and didn't have to PAY for their jobs.

People I meet at functions, parties etc actually laugh when I tell them what pilots earn and how much VB and JS pilots pay for their training.

This is so sad.

No worries mate

1st Apr 2005, 01:25

Another thing Qantaslink could have done was change their hiring practices and do what most regionals (and them) did in the past and hire pilots who are in the late 20 early 30’s who are less likely or do not want to fly for a major airline. Many of these pilots would already be married, maybe have a kid(s) and are looking at job security and lifestyle. They want to be home most nights rather than be spending most of their nights in a motel room on the other side of the country.

I would guess the average age of the pilots joining Qantaslink would be 22-24 so these pilots are only looking at Qantaslink as a short term career. Like everyone at that age, they want to have fun and make lots of money. So they go to Qantaslink spend 6 months to 2 years there and jump ship as soon as they can and go and fly a jet paying them more money.

Frickman

1st Apr 2005, 01:46

...Another thing they could have done was pay a decent bloody wage and improve working conditions so that pilots actually want to stay.

BankAngle50

1st Apr 2005, 01:54

What an utter disgrace! Enough of you have already broken down the $$$ and come the conclusion that is a profession best to avoid. How sad!:yuk:

Imagine trying to live in SYD on 40K pa whilst paying off a rating and gods know how much on flying training? Oh and this is all after working in GA for food. :ugh:

Who in the right mind would send the kid to be pilot now? Send them to uni so that they can become a management ass-wipe instead. At least they wont be broke!!!

spinout

1st Apr 2005, 03:26

From the people I know at Eastern/Sunstate, now known as Qantaslink (see new uniform…) they are all disgusted with the pay for endorsement and also think Qantaslink will find it even harder to find acceptable crews. A lot of pilots at Qantaslink think the company would be better off making it a better place to work and therefore retain staff but alas it’s the upper echelons of Qantas that control what is going on… As far as the AFAP goes most pilots are shifting to AIPA and as soon as a few items are sorted you will see a lot of resignations from the AFAP.:cool:

LetsGoRated

1st Apr 2005, 03:56

As far as the AFAP goes most pilots are shifting to AIPA and as soon as a few items are sorted you will see a lot of resignations from the AFAP.

What the bl$%dy hell do think AIPA will do for you?? What a joke, NO pilot union in this country is worth pi%%ing on, period!! Why on earth would any bright young kid want anything to do with aviation in this country today..........the utter contempt shown by the Rat towards its staff (whilst our "unions" sit around and watch) is an absolute disgrace. :yuk:

Ibex

1st Apr 2005, 04:37

Well the rot started in Australia with Virgin Blue entering the scene and requiring pay up front endorsements. Perhaps it was just a matter of time though before this came to Australia and would have regardless given it seems quite common or even the norm overseas.

What is this going to do to the industry? In years to come those of us already working could be reaping big rewards as less people opt for a career in aviation. A looming skills shortage is real (article on this in today’s Australian) yet managers looking for short term gains don't care about the picture 5 or 10 years down the track.

Already young people are not looking at careers in aviation with other better paid and rewarding jobs requiring minimal or substantially less financial outlay to achieve than that of pilots.

Ten years from now companies like Eastern and probably even the other large regionals (rumours perhaps that REX may soon be charging up front too... :sad: ) may find themselves hiring those straight out of flying school willing to dish out another 18 grand to secure their first job bypassing a withering dried up or even dead in the water General Aviation industry.

The real truth about aviation as a career needs to be communicated to those looking at a start. Large initial costs for just bare basic minimum qualifications followed by years of work on the bones of your ass in old outdated and dangerous equipment followed by even more large financial outlays required to gain half respectable employment that doesn't end up paying all that flash to work your arse off.

Maybe the whole idea is to have a shelf life for pilots. Get them while they are young and stupid with stars in their eyes about the glamour of the job, squeeze them dry of all their funds to get qualified, work their rings off then discard them for more young wannabes 10 years down the track.

I hope that the one victim of this criminal practice is not the excellent safety record we have here in Australia for airline operations.

And for all those with the defence of well its been done overseas for so long, by backing this you immediately highlight yourselves as naive, inexperienced new entrants still stroking over the thought of breaking the bonds of earth. Perhaps not your fault, we've all been at that stage once but please try and have some forward thinking and realise that at the end of the day we are doing a job, like anyone else we should be suitably reimbursed.

boocs

1st Apr 2005, 05:18

Only the beginning....???

A colleague of mine mentioned the other day that Ryanair (being the LCC Industry "leaders") now have gone to great lengths to save that extra dollar.

Let's hope QantasLink and others will not follow their precedent. These being:

1. The individual paying for sim renewal periods
2. Paying for uniform
3. Paying for your hotel room on overnights
4. Now not supplying bottled water for tech crew (yes, you buy it)

:( :( :(

Warhawk

1st Apr 2005, 05:36

To be fair to VB (& No I don't work for them!), Virgin Express, Ryanair, Easyjet & Fruudum Urr (NZ) all had a pay for rating policy long before Tricky Dickie came to town.

Older fellas like myself see the real change being a result of the very different entrants into the aviation job market. In the 1970's and 1980's there were few "flying schools". Most pilots came from the RAAF, Aero Clubs and GA charter - we mostly worked our way up and there weren't so many of us around either. (Never saw advertising about becoming a Civil pilot then) Had anyone asked us to pay for a rating they would have had very little chance - we mostly didn't have, nor could we get the $! Not mention it would been taken as quite an afront - akin to asking a Dr to pay to learn how to use the latest hospital machine that goes "ping".

IMHO from the 1990's on there was a new phenomenon (big word for a pilot you say?). That was the profit oriented flying schools started up, aviation got widely advertised as a career choice for confused teenagers with wealthy folks, and the whole atmosphere changed with it. (Let me see shall my little Jonny or Mary be a Dr, Lawyer or Pilot? Hmmm - nice uniforms! DONE) It was quite noticeable to those of us on the scene then - the attitude of the aspirants was totally different. They were youn and had mummy's $ (although they always denied it - claiming a bank lent a 19 year old $50k with no assetts, no job and no history ;) To be fair to these kids in my view the flying schools were often fibbing to them about the job market and as such worsening the situation by flooding the market with wannabes.

They became a bit worried and before you could say "country road sale now on" it seemed that everywhere you turned you heard - "I'll work for free". Then it became "I'll pay for ME F/O time on commercial ops". And sure enough came "I'll pay for my on the job training" (i.e. type rating). And why not eh? If you are young, have no real debts and the folks are subsidising your living expenses - go for it! You can jump the que and be posing in that nice airline uniform much quicker eh!

Pity that it buggered it for everybody else eh :uhoh:

And you can hardly blame the airlines for lapping it up can ya? They run a business - their objectives are simple; Profit maximisation through cost minimisation, share price and profit bonuses for the CEO, etc. To be honest I'd be tempted if I was the CEO to go that way - only my resultant imsomnia would stop me!

We've done it to ourselves fellas - So don't blame the airlines so much. Its become std practice now. I only hope these rumoured shortages are real, maybe we can put things right a bit.

I recently had the pleasure of declining a Jet* interview, answering the lovely lady's question "why" with that sorry but I: don't pay for interviews and travel on QF to a QF interview for a job I am already doing, on the same type, for more money than you pay back home in OZ.

Many of my fellow antipodeans here feel the same - the only thing a job at home gives you is that - home. In most other respect its become a loser!
:\

GA bloke

1st Apr 2005, 06:16

Eastern is an airline that I have been applying to since I got my ATPL a couple of years ago and a company which I would have very much liked to work for. BUT how the hell are they expecting me and hundreds of other people that would have been good candidates to be able to save up that kind of money when I usually have $100 left over every fortnight. Are they expecting me to save up for seven years before there is even any point me having an interview? Or maybe we are supposed to get a loan and pay for it over the next ten years! At least with a bond everybody can actually have a go based on ability and experience not on wallet size. I am presuming that the majority of their pilots come from GA, and I would think that everybody else in GA would be thinking the same way as me. So where are their pilots going to come from overseas maybe?:confused:

Sproggo

1st Apr 2005, 08:24

To all those pilots already with Qantaslink who think that because you already have the job, that this is not going to affect you... Think again. This has totally changed the way your employer can treat you. Before it cost them money to replace you. Now it costs them nothing. They can screw with your pay and conditions all they like (and they will because employee morale doesnt appear anywhere on a balance sheet). You cant do a thing about it, because your resignation costs the company $0.00. Its a cost neutral exercise.

What can be done about this now? F*%ked if I know. Would say its already too late. But I would also say that this serves as a warning for all pilots already employed by Qantas: don't think you are immune. They already bond their pilots, why not charge them too? And why stop at the initial induction endorsement? Why not charge for every other endorsment throughout your career? Surely they would never try this on; their pilots would leave. Correct. And qantas would not give a s*#t !

Don Won

1st Apr 2005, 08:59

What a sad day for Oz aviation.........I also over in kiwi land got the same e-mail, who the F*&! do they think they are!!!! there is a real need for pilots in NZ at the mo and if you aus guys realy feel the need to fly a Dash jump the dich cos our version of sun state are doing the exact same thing to replace their fleet of sabb 340a's first new ship to arrive next month and ya don't even have to pay too fly for them........sombody in that company needs the donkey punch!:eek:

Shazzamed

1st Apr 2005, 10:28

I still dont understand...Why would paying for your own endorsement make you wanna stay?? You'd be even more inclined to leave once you found a better paying job!!

The least they could do is put you on the QF seniorty list!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shamozzelled:confused:

sumtingwong

1st Apr 2005, 11:03

Well that's bloody it then isn't it.

How long before the other major regionals M*cair, Rip roaring R*x and the like do similar. Not long. Qlink may initially have trouble sourcing pilots with their scam sorry scheme, but the pressure they would be exerting on other similar regionals to do the same would be intense. As a consequence they will all be doing it shortly and any choice made to progress within the industry will come at the cost of about 50% or your yearly earnings.

Skipp@rs, once renowned for finally being the step out of GA now bonds you for 7K for two years, plus you fork out 7K of your own for the endo. For what, to earn 32K a year flying sometimes unqualified labourers (who so far have spent none of the 50-60K on their job's as we all have), to mine site's earning at least twice what the pilots who fly them there earn.

The rest of the dominoes are lining up and the birds are coming home to roost.

It used to be a given, 15 even 10 years ago that you worked for in GA for a number of years. If you were lucky you got the award (which really is laughably inadequate but we seem to aspire to it). Then you got out of GA into the regionals or an airline. You'd done your time, worked crap jobs for crap people but you knew the trade-off was there. A secure job, good pay and no expectations to pay any more (isn't 50-60K enough to get qualified) so you accepted it, kept your mouth shut and did you bloody job.

Where is that trade-off now? People WILL pay for these endorsements to work for between 32-45K as an FO on a metro, bras or Dash, because it will get them out of the endless day-to-day existence that is GA and it's financial right hand man the inadequate award.

It has to start off at the bottom. Operators not paying the award must be forced to. Then the award itself has to be adjusted to reflect that what we do is NOT unskilled labour (we are paid less than an agricultural labourer or a clerk). Then perhaps people reasonably paid and conditioned will not be so desperate to part with vast sum's of money just to earn slightly more. At some stage we need the trade-off or we'll be 65, forced to retire and wonder why none of us ever got ahead of the 8 ball.

Just re-reading my post, waste of time really, it's never going to happen, these schemes may not flourish, but they will take hold.

Bugger this, I'm off overseas. If I’m going to be treated as white slave labour, I'd rather it not be in my own country!

longjohn

1st Apr 2005, 11:11

Ah yes, the race to the bottom changes up a gear!

How low can we go?:ugh:

Ultralights

1st Apr 2005, 11:28

as i said befoe in another post, this just makes all levels of aviation just one big Hobbie! its not a job anymore if you have to pay to get that job, then spend a good % of those wages in repaying what you spent to get the Job. so the step from Below award in GA to a "better, good paying job" in the airlines is no more,
you will , in reality, still be on the same money as you were in GA, only this time, it wont be the below award pay, it will be meeting the loan repayments to cover the cost of your "job"

an aviation carrer is no longer that, just another Hobbie pursuit, and now a full time life devouring one at that!
and those with the most money, will only be playing with bigger toys....

Zhaadum

1st Apr 2005, 11:57

UNACCEPTABLE!

Sent a email to Eastern today. Told them I will not be paying for this endorsement on Dash 8. Suggested they rethink their policy, or go without pilots. If everyone else who received the email from them replies in a similar fashion maybe they will rethink it when they run short of crew? Or not as may be. Some silvertails will stuff it for everyone else, regardless of their lack of skill as pilots. But I won't stand for it anymore. Stuff em! Earning more in GA (Classified) than airlines as FO ($38k and paying up to 18K for Dash 8 endo AND have to live in expensive Sydney), where is the incentive anymore?

Not Happy Jan!

ITCZ

1st Apr 2005, 11:57

Captain Mark Davey, Flight Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Ltd

Captain Don Anderson, Flight Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Ltd

Well, gentlemen, whatever integrity and standing you had in the industry up to this week, is now gone.

The only thing you will be remembered for in Australian aviation now, is that you were the first to put their names at the top of an infamous list.

If you are AFAP members, tender your resignations . You are no longer welcome.

BankAngle50

1st Apr 2005, 12:34

IBEX just to correct you; the “rot” actually started with Impluse and the 8K the guys paid for a 1900 rating so they could live on 28K pa in Sydney. These monkeys still lead the way as the lowest paid 320 drivers outside Eastern Europe. Not defending VB in anyway, but at least the guys there get paid 15K pa in recognition that they funded their own training.

Sadly what many of you have alluded to, is that it would now be a more financially prudent move to become a bus driver. You don’t have to pay for rating and I would guess over a career you would probably now earn more.

When I learnt to fly there were 3 airlines here TAA, AN and QF. A pilot was a respected career and reward appropriately. Besides the love of aircraft I suspect this was a factor for many of use going ahead with this career instead of another, and as a result a lot of people were training back in the 80,90’s, there was an over supply. Conditions erroded and here we are. What about now? I recently went to YBAF and the only people training were Koreans airline cadets. Have the kids woken up that its better to pursue another profession? Makes you wonder where this is going to lead us. :{

Australia2

1st Apr 2005, 17:50

Hi all,

Another new low in Oz aviation. Interesting to see if people vote with their feet or put up with this crap.

Oz2

Shagtastic

1st Apr 2005, 18:43

Having started a number threads in the past about the 'pay for your rating' extortion carried out by low life companies I find it amusing to see a distinct absence now of those ppruner's who defended it.. perhaps they were trying to justify to themselves their actions in forking out 30K or so simply to stay in the game.

ITCZ has put some less than subtle pressure on the Chief Pilots of Eastern's & Sunstate but in their defense perhaps they are just pawns on the chessboard having being given a shyte job to do. I suspect this action taken by Qlink is just a sampler put out by QF mainline to test the water.

QF application form of the future..

Are you minted?

Would your parrents object to a 2nd mortgage whilst they subsidise our training costs?

School grades not important, flying skill irrelevant.

Enough said.
Shaggy

Howard Hughes

1st Apr 2005, 18:50

Heard a rumour that:

QF will play Eastern and Sunstate of against each other, to see who will crew the Q-400 for the lowest prce?

It doesn't sound good...

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

Shagtastic

1st Apr 2005, 20:20

Here's a tip for both the Eastern's & Sunstate boys and girls.. bid the highest price in order to fly the Q400.

Why, because it is a heap of junk and you will be asked to pay for your upgrades no doubt. Simm slots on the 3 Q400 simm's are pretty tight so you'll have to pay mega bucks to go to Sweden if that is the only simm going at the time.

May be a new toy on the horizon but don't get too excited.

Food for thought.

Shaggy

mjbow2

1st Apr 2005, 21:13

That was funnier than hell...thanks.

I am sure you have all read 'Warning of skills shortage crisis' in fridays Australian. In this artical newly formed industry Group AUSAC (Australian Aviation Council) had the audacity to accuse the government for 'lacking a trategic aviation policy' to deal with the skills shortages including pilots.

Here is a copy of my letter to the editor, I suggest that everyone here does their level best to air their views in the press.

"Dear Sir

According to CASA’s ‘rough guide’ the average pilot will spend $60,600 just to pass the tests for all their licenses and ratings up to the level of a commercial pilot. Beyond that they still have to attain the highest level of civilian aircraft license, the Air Transport Pilot License which, will require them to fly an additional 1250 hours more than they already had at the commercial level, if they want to fly for the airlines. How they get those hours is up to them and most often those scarce few, lucky enough to have the tens of thousands more it costs to get the myriad of instructor ratings will auction themselves off to whatever flight school they can simply to fly these extra 1250 hours for the privilege of not writing a cheque for between $150 and $350 per flight hour.

All said and done the very lucky get to spend the better part of $100,000 for their training and will still have an uphill battle to secure one of the few low paid flying jobs available in Australia. With Virgin, Jetstar and since yesterday, Qantaslink now asking for applicants to pay for their company required training on a 737 or Airbus A320 (Both $30,000+) its no wonder the number of licensed pilots has dropped by 2001 since 2001. The industry is asking its workforce to spend on its own education, in excess of $100,000 for a $45,000 job in the case of Qantaslink and for not much more remuneration in the cases of Virgin and Jetstar. Baring all this there are still 30,390 licensed pilots in Australia and AUSAC (‘Warning of skills shortage crisis’ 01/04/05) is accusing the federal government of ‘lacking a strategic aviation policy’ to avert the pending pilot shortage that the airlines are doing their level best to create. There never has been a pilot shortage and there never will be. The airlines are now actively driving them out of the country to greener pastures."

MJB

badboiblu

1st Apr 2005, 21:51

Hey .ITCZ
Don't except Don Anderson or Mark Davey to resign any day soon from the AFAP if they are members. After all they have just done a nice cosy little deal.
Only 3/4 weeks ago all the pilots received letter stating that they "Mark and Don" and Qantaslink would do all they could to help the AFAP against any involvement from AIPA into the group.
Now we start to see the cost of this lubed up little deal. AFAP's response to the pay for endorsements "bit of bad luck huh"
l for one am a member of the AFAP but in the future if we have to be in the AIPA then so be it.
All l ask it that for the union that I'm in, is to fight for me and the members.
Grow some balls AFAP or your demise will be your own fault

Shazzamed

1st Apr 2005, 23:04

The sad thing is that if their not enough applicants i.e. 'Shortage of skilled workers' they will probably just bring in guys from overseas who have the qualifications already!! I mentioned this in another post somewhere...About qualified applicants from overseas!!!

Very very disturbing.....

What a mess!!

BankAngle50

2nd Apr 2005, 00:21

MJB not defending VB at all, but I wouldn’t put it in the same boat as Jet*. As I said before at least VB pay their guys 15Kpa in recognition of paying for their training in addition a base at least 20K pa more then the monkeys at Jet*. Overall they pay at VB is still crap, but comparing it to Jet*'s :yuk: conditions and 100 hours plus a month is a bit rich.

Just to clarify I think forcing people to buy a rating is a disgraceful practiced and should be illegal. Where does it stop, why not force bus drivers to pay for their training? After all considering the 100K plus and years of lost income becoming an airline pilot it would seem they now earn more. I really think the government should make the practice of employers forcing new employees to pay for training cost outlawed.

Animalclub

2nd Apr 2005, 00:49

If you haven't got the skills for the job why should anyone employ you? Or am I being too simplistic.

I can understand that if you are already in the employ of a company that introduces new technology the employee should be trained on this new technology at the employER's expense.

I accepted a promotion within a company for which I needed more training. I attended a training establishment at my own initial cost with the company reimbursing the fees AFTER I HAD PASSED the the examination each year. No pass no reimbursement.

After saying that I used to work for an airline that employed a pilot who didn't have a current licence! Obviously the pilot was able to get one... and he became a good friend.

Balinda

2nd Apr 2005, 01:21

Pilots do still have some power of persuasion.

Apart from how we can affect the operating costs, -

Might I suggest that a period of sick days, over a period of time may indicate that we can cost them more than they intend saving by giving us the raw pineapple treatment.

1 day at a time does not require a not from our mums or Doctors, infact I am starting to feel sick right now.

Zapatas Blood

2nd Apr 2005, 03:51

Debating the right or wrong about new joiners funding a type rating is pointless. Clearly, like the US, Australia has plenty of people willing to pay for a type rating if it gets them what they want - higher salary, better safety, better rostering and perks such as staff travel.

This is what capitalism is about people, like or lump it, it happens no matter how much you grumble.

LetsGoRated

2nd Apr 2005, 06:41

BankAngle, get your hand off it you hypocrite. What did you pay for your 37 rating? ****!!

Erin Brockovich

2nd Apr 2005, 09:16

I think it's time to put up or shut up. We are our worst enemy. I can see signs that the pool of experienced pilots is already starting to dry up. The airlines and regionals should be asking them selves who is going to fly their aircraft in 5 - 10 years time?
You might be able to get a cadet to become a SO at 200hrs but not a FO or Capt. Where are the experienced (ie >1500T 500MC) pilots going to come from when no one takes up flying because they can't afford to.

Like most of you say, who in their right mind would get a licence (god knows what a CPL costs now) knowing in advance that after years in GA plus extra costs for C-ME IFR etc gets them a

($38k and paying up to 18K for Dash 8 endo AND have to live in expensive Sydney)This is the worst time in the industry for operators to go asking for endos and paying peanuts. Lets just turn everybody away from flying.

This quoted from the QL email

The review highlighted the fact that this process is in line with industry practice and will allow QantasLink to better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirements
to better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirements :confused:
QL you have just lost my application before I have even considered applying. And I have passed the controversial psych test that seems to cull many suitable candidates.(not indended as a horn blow).

It is getting harder and harder to stay motivated in this industry. 'Pilot' will find its way next to the Tasmanian Tiger on the endangered species list in years to come if the current operators keep on the current path. The key to a successful business is happy (even able to support themself) staff. They are your company's investment, so invest in them and get the returns, real profits - not false ones by cutting costs.

There will be a 'correction' in the industry like the stock market sooner or later and the remaining pilots will benefit. IMO I don't believe a 'requirement change' will offset a shortage. Simply because the airlines won't be able to afford the increased insurance premiums when all they have left to command their aircraft are 200hr pilots. As for qualified overseas applicants :eek: qualified by whos standards? 100hrs on type 500total and a US ATPL?

F/O Bloggs

2nd Apr 2005, 09:32

I guess this could be the start for a boom time for the RAAF. They are getting the Airbus A330 and and a new squadron of 737s (AWACS) and already operate the 737BBJ, and they won't be asking for candidates to pay for their ratings-

"Dear Bloggs,

Congratulations on having passed our medical, and pyschological testing. You will be accepted into the RAAF as a pilot once you have paid us $10 000 000 to cover the conversion costs of the CT4, PC9, Hawk 127 and F/A 18 aircraft."

I don't think so.
:ok:

mjbow2

2nd Apr 2005, 11:47

Folks,

lets get this issue some real attention. Write a letter to the editor of the Australian linking the accusation by AUSAC that the Government is to blame for the impending pilot shortage while they are actively creating the false premise of a shortage by essentially asking pilots to subsidise the companies costs, thereby artificially reducing the number of applicants. With fewer applicants they will have the 'evidence' that there IS a shortage of pilots.

This is a travesty and must be put to an end. We all know that the pilot shortage is a complete myth.

If enough of us write to the Australian then someone will get published. Lets be heard people!

Chris Higgins

2nd Apr 2005, 12:27

To simply assume, "That's the way that it's done in the USA", is complete and utter rubbish.

Fly by night operators, or those that can only attract marginally qualified candidates are the only ones that still do it.

I can supply accident reports and even a training accident involving an Embraer jet split in two following a "hard" landing in Texas!! All of these involving poorly qualified types at the controls in pay-for-training operating environments.

The fact that PFT is diminishing in the USA and that hull losses are now at their minimum should tell you something.

This is not in the interests of securing a safe airspace in the Australian environment. This is oportunism run rampant, at the expense of safety.

If you want a four page report sent to Steve Creedy, to be published in The Australian, citing NTSB sources and airline Chief Pilots...it can be done!!

No worries mate

3rd Apr 2005, 08:06

An effective way to get back at Qantaslink is to let them interview you, get the piece of paper saying you have a job and act like you plan to proceed with the paying for your endorsement. Qantaslink will then put their training roster together to cover your line training etc plus they will be working out their future rosters and schedules based on the pilot numbers they think they will after the new pilots have completed their training.

Just before you have to fork out the cash to their "preferred training provider" give them a call and say you couldn't raise they money. And if those who are currently employed pull "sickie's", their schedules will go out the window and they may have to cancel flights. That will soon make them look at and change their recruitment policy.

Hold onto the piece of paper offering the position, as it could will become very handy when they find themselves short of pilots.

Ultralights

3rd Apr 2005, 12:25

since when has anyone taken some smart thinking from the US aviation indusrty and applied it here??

first was with GA and Terrorism, the US Knows that GA aircraft are no threat to homeland security, and promtly left it alone to prosper, but not here! a 500 KG plastic aircraft flying at 90Kts IS a terrorist weapon of choice! even when its crewed by honest australians!

even if proven that pay for training endos doesnt work in the US and is directly responsible for a decline in safety, that wont matter here, all that matters here in Oz, is

$$ saved.

ITCZ

3rd Apr 2005, 12:57

ITCZ has put some less than subtle pressure on the Chief Pilots of Eastern's & Sunstate but in their defense perhaps they are just pawns on the chessboard having being given a shyte job to do.

Shagtastic, pawns or not pawns, they are grown men, and they put THEIR names at the bottom of that letter.

The rot stops when men and women use their ability to choose to do what is right over what is wrong.

The threat of a loss of income or being demoted to the line -- is that REALLY a frightening prospect, in an industry where in order to get into bigger aeroplanes, you put your life on the line in the mountains of PNG, having spears waved in your fact in Arnhemland, or being shot at in the services?

No, shagtastic, those men putting their names at the bottom of a letter like that, tells me plenty about them. And if they are Federation members enjoying Federation benefits, they won't be doing so for much longer. Hope the extra income from QF link helps them get over it.

It is never an easy thing to do the right thing. In fact the more important the decision, the harder it is to do the right thing.

Making excuses for not doing so is as old as human history. I am not surprised, just dishearted to discover the true nature of the CP's of these organisations.

RYAN TCAD

3rd Apr 2005, 13:04

And, of course - to the guy that was wondering where the struggling GA pilots would get the $18,000.00 to pay for the endo to QL's "PREFERRED" company?

Not to worry - Alas! Qantas Credit Union to the rescue will only be too happy to provide you the credit and reap the repayments PLUS INTEREST from you in to their bank accounts!

This whole thing stinks of them making money!

BIG TIME!

BTW - check this little bit from the CASA website. This should allay any fears of a looming shortage. The figure below relates to active pilots presumably seeking employment!

http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/overbr.htm

Skills assessments for migration purposes

NOTE: In Australia there are currently more than 14,000 Commercial and ATPL pilots who are not employed as pilots. The Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) is reviewing the requirement for the continued immigration of Pilots under the Skills Assessment for the Purposes of Migration (Aircraft Pilot, ASCO code 2541-11).

It is anticipated that in the near future, Aircraft Pilots will be removed from the Skilled Occupations List (SOL) which applies to applications lodged under the points-tested migration arrangements.

CASA has been advised that once the pilot occupation has been removed from the SOL, the change becomes effective immediately and no further applications will be processed by DIMIA under this category, including those already received and not yet finalised.

Due to the time and financial costs involved in converting an overseas licence to the Australian equivalent for migration skills assessment purposes, potential applicants should take these factors into consideration before deciding whether to convert their licence when this avenue may not be available.

What do you think?

Shazzamed

3rd Apr 2005, 13:38

Whats there to review?? There is nothing to review! It should of been done 15 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

psycho joe

3rd Apr 2005, 23:57

All too often we've had to listen to 89ers whinging about how bad Sir Peter and Ansett were to work for..and the scabs..oh the scabs..It strikes me as a funny irony that quite a few of these guys are working for a company that charges for training.

As far as I'm concerned the REAL scabs are not only the ones who degraded themselves and the industry by paying for the endorsement, but the captains who sat back and watched it.

Thanks for todays industry guys.

DirectAnywhere

4th Apr 2005, 00:06

RYAN TCAD, nice conspiracy theory but QSCU is independent of the company being a cooperative set up and managed by the employees.

QF doesn't make a red cent out of the operation of the QSCU.

If I was borrowing money I'd rather borrow it from them anyway, as their service and rates s^&t all over the banks from a very great height.

Brindabella

4th Apr 2005, 02:31

Mjbow2 and SPS

I agree. We should start to air this disgraceful trend in the media. A group of whinging pilots on a forum is just that. It about time we got some air play.

Brinda.....

Jaguar7777

4th Apr 2005, 06:32

From No worries mate's post below - I think there will be no need to do this deliberately, there will be plenty doing this whether they want to or not.

No Worries Mate

"An effective way to get back at Qantaslink is to let them interview you, get the piece of paper saying you have a job and act like you plan to proceed with the paying for your endorsement. Qantaslink will then put their training roster together to cover your line training etc plus they will be working out their future rosters and schedules based on the pilot numbers they think they will after the new pilots have completed their training.

Just before you have to fork out the cash to their "preferred training provider" give them a call and say you couldn't raise they money. And if those who are currently employed pull "sickie's", their schedules will go out the window and they may have to cancel flights. That will soon make them look at and change their recruitment policy.

Hold onto the piece of paper offering the position, as it could will become very handy when they find themselves short of pilots."

Mr.Buzzy

4th Apr 2005, 06:43

Ok so when it comes time to move on...

"He did what? he took how many sick days in his first week? Really? He tried to hold you at randsome?... no really I'm sure he is a top bloke. Oh he didnt tell you that he was applying elsewhere?"

"So how did the interview at Dragon go mate?"

"Nah not for me... I hate asia"

Funny how small the world is when you make a C*@T of yourself!

bbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz

splatman

4th Apr 2005, 09:31

NO WORRIES MATE

Your suggesting due to your opposition to the self funded endorsement program that people should try to undermine the process and say yes I'll do it then say oh sorry I won't.

Hang on - would that be as bad as some one starting the endorsement process and resigning before it was finished as they had a job offer to move on to larger equipment, or resigning half way through the ground school for similar reasons?

Do some home work and you'll probably find that this has occured and in more than one or two companies!

I don't agree with the principle, however if it provides a sustainable benefit to any organisation and effective practices ensure maintenance of standards, then you really have to look on the other side of the fence and ask yourself really what are you trying to acheive other than making an As%$^le of yourself.

For the record - I believe the commencement of this practice within the regional airline environment is a sad day and the ramifications for attracting people into the profession may well have an impact some years down the track. But I understand the basic principle behind it and strongly believe it is up to the individuals to determine if they are prepared to fund their own endorsement prior to employment.

IMHO for what it is worth.

Frickman

4th Apr 2005, 12:07

"Today Tonight are always looking for a story"

Today Tonight are as hard hitting as Fairy Floss

Chris Higgins

5th Apr 2005, 01:36

I would never condone anyone holding any employer to "randsome" or ransom either. You are not helping engage your employer in professional solutions to this problem by this kind of behaviour.

The best thing to do is have contract language in your next bargaining session to prevent this, as my union has done.

CAYNINE

5th Apr 2005, 07:06

....and Aussie guys are whinging in Emirates!!!!! They obviously have lost touch with what a miserable state Dixon has turned aviation carreers into down under.

Being obstructive won't change a thing, the company have dealt with that type of passive protest for a long time. Dixon makes Strong look like a family councellor when it comes to giving a damn.

Seize the day and make a huge effort guys to get outta Oz away from restrictive industrial policies and the worlds 3rd highest taxed country.

OBNO

5th Apr 2005, 07:20

This scenario is getting ridiculous. It is time Pilots grew some back bone and just not accepted this as a reasonable offer of employment. Pay for your endorsement and be paid peanuts! The more folks accept this the more employers will force the conditions down.

MrWooby

5th Apr 2005, 09:21

Paying for a pre-employent endorsement for the likes of Jetstar and Virgin is bad enough. Paying to fly for Qlink is just ridiculous.
We need to get tough on this and start a concerted co-ordinated action.

If every pilot writes to Qlink and withdraws their application this will quickly bring things to a head. Who do they think they will employ. Do you really think pilots from overseas will re-locate to Australia to fly for Qlink and be paid FO wages on our tax schedules.

The same goes for Virgin and Jetstar. Just withdraw your application. Just say NO. Once the airlines realise that they cannot get people to fly for them, that pilots from O/S either won't come or even if some pilots do come from will leave once a job opens in the own country. This pox on the oz avaition scene will dissappear.

Mr.Buzzy

5th Apr 2005, 10:09

MrWooby from MrBuzzy..... I like it.
As tight as your plan seems, you appear to be forgetting that there are still plenty of pilots that have been overseas for a considerable amount of time, have made plenty of money and would just love to come home. I agree with you, paying for an endorsement is far from ideal but look at how effective the CX ban has been.
Personally, I don't mind the idea of a bond or training wage or whatever you call it. It would certainly take a brave person to refuse a job based on a tax deductible training fee knowing full well that dozens are lined up overseas just waiting for a chance to return to OZ.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbzzzzzzzzzz

Chris Higgins

5th Apr 2005, 13:43

Oh really Mr Buzzy?

So you've seen these resumes? So you're a management clown trying to convert the masses are you?

"Welcome to white slavery ladies and gentlemen, your master...Mr Buzzy!"

"First up...how to destroy your finances and put yourselves in the poor house, while funding your own training to fly an overgrown weed-whacker with wings!":p

MrWooby

6th Apr 2005, 00:48

Yes there are probably some pilots o/s who would like to return to fly for Jetstar / Virgin but that number must be dwindling by now. But who in their right mind would want to return to fly a Dash 8. Capt Davey from Easterns would not have wanted this, he is a reasonable guy, but unfortunately his hands are tied from above.

Qlink are basically out of their minds. Lets see, pay for your own endorsement, earn about 42,000 per year as an FO, work bloody hard doing 1-2 overnights per week with absolute minimum turnaround overnight flying up to six sectors per day with many early starts. And probably the biggest thing against Qlink is that you give yourself virtually no chance of being employed by Qantas, the only remaining airline paying a decent wage. Sure Qlink / Qantas management will say this is not true, however just look at the numbers. In times of record recruitemnt for QF mainline, there were about 8 pilots hired from Easterns in 2000, and then 1 in late 2004. Basically if you want to fly for QF, DO NOT APPLY TO EASTERNS/SUNSTATE !!!!!

Its too late to stop pay for endorsement in Virgin / Jetstar but not too late for Qlink. Come on AFAP, put on a ban on joing Qlink, recommend that all members withdraw applications. AIPA, you represent some members now, start applying any pressure (which isn't probably very much) you can too.

On a different topic, lets get some unity amongst the pilot groups. For example with the Dash 8 400 coming lets not fight about who is going to fly it. When Easterns ask their pilots how much they will fly it for say (example only) 95K. The same for Sunnies 95K, and National Jet 95K. Will Dixon start another airline to fly the 400 then to undercut everyone else, I don't think so.

Come on guys lets show some balls.

Boney

8th Apr 2005, 10:19

I think the decision to operate this way in the future at arguabley one of the best gigs in Australia (was!?) is sad enough to warrant it to be sent back up the top.

slice

9th Apr 2005, 05:35

1 from Eastern to Qantas in Late 2004!! I know that guy but I didn't know he was the only one for years!:(

spinout

9th Apr 2005, 09:40

I now understand AIPA have over 70 members from Eastern, if Career Progression is to follow maybe paying for a DASH 8 endorsement might not be so bad, are any Sunstate pilots joining AIPA???:cool:

Bluebottle

9th Apr 2005, 12:06

IF!....a very big IF too........:hmm:

Normasars

11th Apr 2005, 06:33

Chris Higgins what planet are you on mate. Many at Q are currently in the throws of negotiating(?) their respective EBA negotiations now. Typically a log of claims is put to the Company and the overwhelming response to those is NO NO NO NO NO adnausium. Why we evan call it an AGREEMENT is beyond me. 3% is yours and you should consider yourself lucky. The rising/sky rocketing price of unleaded/diesel doesn't cover this pathetic amount let alone the surging prices of everything else indirectly related to fuel prices. You can't negotiate anything with this currant crop of empire building,self righteous pack of rseholes.

Mr.Buzzy

11th Apr 2005, 07:59

Hey Norma, were you living with Hey Den before a move to the house of Torana?

bbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzz

Normasars

12th Apr 2005, 03:46

Mr Buzzy what great memoirs they are. Apparently now there is a Rex instead of the Trana. Lots of good times were had by all.

Mr.Buzzy

12th Apr 2005, 07:38

Hey hey Norma,
Memories of Kuhli loaches and El toro fuente chateau fuentes! Talk about some great times!
Will chat very soon and hook up for another roast-up!
The best to you!

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Chris Higgins

12th Apr 2005, 22:51

Normasars

I cetainly believe you are correct in your assumptions that negotiating terms of an EBA are difficult right now.

Collective Bargaining hasn't ever been easy...I didn't say it was, but you have to show them how you feel about it and explain the financial burdens, lowered morale, smaller choice of quality candidates and potential safety issues and later costs of upgrades.

spinout

12th Apr 2005, 23:02

Chris

Qantas Management don’t give a siht about the employees, you could
“Explain the financial burdens, lowered morale, smaller choice of quality candidates and potential safety issues and later costs of upgrades.”
Till you go blue in the face.

Watchdog

12th Apr 2005, 23:45

...and nothing will change until the simple economic equation of pilot supply vs demand changes in Australia! Simple.

Chris Higgins

13th Apr 2005, 03:14

...but until then, you must establish and maintain professional principles to live by.

oicur12

13th Apr 2005, 12:05

Burt

give us a call sometime,

Dick

Normasars

15th Apr 2005, 07:24

Mr.Buzzy, sorry for the delay but been busy in the box for a cupla days. I will bring some Blue Rams and Yellow Stripy's round. We should flashup the BBQ with a King Brown or 5 very soon. Will call in when drivin past house of Trex soon. Cheers Norma.

OIC will see the folks for number and email soon, Burt.

Ejector

9th Dec 2005, 08:51

So are people still paying to work for peanuts with this company?

relax737

9th Dec 2005, 20:54

Reference page 1 quotes that QF will have pilots paying for endorsements, I spoke with a senior QF mate a while back, and he says that new starts will definitely be paying for their FIRST endorsemnt within the near future. The company will cover further training

Ejector

9th Dec 2005, 21:03

Relax737,

Do you mean for mainline too????

:confused:

relax737

9th Dec 2005, 21:48

Yep, he is a mainline pilot and was talking about mainline entry.

We can thank VB for introducing that to Oz, unfortunately, or was it the personal deodorant company, Impulse? (Isn't that the last name you'd call an airline?? Not for the deodorant connotation, but the association between doing something on impulse and an airline operation)

Incidentally, pilots have been one of the few occupations where the employer pays for training if the applicant is not qualified.

If a law firm seeks a solicitor, or an engineering firm seeks an engineer, etc., with specific qualifications, that's what they want, not somebody who doesn't meet their requiremetns who they must upgrade at their expense.

I do know of cases where an applicant with less than desirable qualifications has been taken on but at a much reduced rate until he gets up to speed with the requirements.

I know it's a tradition that pilots join an airline and the airline pays for their training, and I don't disagree with that, but the times they are a changin'. We dont have to like it, but we are going to see more of it.

Even if QF had as its conditions a pilot must pay for his initial training and then work for nix for a year, they wouldn't run short of applicants.

Capt Fathom

9th Dec 2005, 22:08

I spoke with a senior QF mate a while back, and he says that new starts will definitely be paying for their FIRST endorsemnt within the near future.
A friend of mine just started in mainline...no mention of paying for endorsement during the interviews or during the groundschool (where you find out everything apparently!).
Perhaps just speculation based on what is happening in regionals.
Paying for your endorsement will certainly reduce the so called holdfile!

Capn Bloggs

10th Dec 2005, 00:08

Relax,
If a law firm seeks a solicitor, or an engineering firm seeks an engineer, etc., with specific qualifications, that's what they want, not somebody who doesn't meet their requirements who they must upgrade at their expense.
Yeh, but those blood-suckers you mention have most of their uni course (and for the special qual) paid for by you and I and then get to pay it back at their leisure via HECS. It wouldn't be so bad for us if we could do the same. But $100k up-front for flying training, then another 30k for endorsement, sucks.

And I wonder how many "special quals" cost $30k upfront?

relax737

10th Dec 2005, 02:35

Capn Bloggs,

I understand what you say, but as you correctly state, graduates pay for their degrees these days; not the total cost I admit, but significantly more than they did some years ago.

I believe a law degree is up there with medicine at about 50,000 pa, and over four or five years, that is more than a pilot pays for his training. ,Arts is the lowest cost, and it goes up from there.

Don't forget that many graduates will never earn what a 747 Capt earns, or even a 737 Capt for that matter, even one flying for VB.

A first year solicitor is paid well under 30,000 pa. A GP at a dawn to dusk clinic is on about 80,000, no more, and they cover their own professional negligence insurance which is close to 10. Those figures come from my cousin who is a GP.

The only GP's making money these days are the ones who own the clinics and employ others, but then they become businessmen.

Capt Fathom, the time frame my friend mentioned was in the 'near future' or as the Americans would say, 'any time soon'.
Don't you just hate the way yanks make words.

I'll say it again, Even if QF had as its conditions a pilot must pay for his initial training and then work for nix for a year, they wouldn't run short of applicants

And as I said earlier, you don't have to like it, but it's happening.