Pay us properly!

[trubru]

I feel instructors in general are not paid according to their qualifications, risks of the job and dedication needed to turn out good students.

Let me know what you guys think?:sad:

[Rhodie]

trubru - I am not too sure where you are going with this question, and I am not an instructor... but...

First - shouldn't this be something that you negotiated with your employers prior to taking up employment at said institution.

Second - be more specific re: qualifications...

When I learnt to fly, the instructors I had ranged from good to horrible.. some of the horrible only became apparent when I learnt more and flew with others, but, without exception, the good ones were those with both a passion for flying and a passion to pass on the knowledge. I think, maybe under correction, that money was not the motivating factor.

To just about any instructor I talk to these days, the instructing is ONLY a means to an end - building hours to get the next job.

Now, there is nothing at all wrong with that - but just as you started flying, so is the pupe now sitting next to you. Where YOU paid your hard earned cash, he is now doing the same..

You have worked to get your com, your instructors rating, and now you still need hours to get more experience, to get the ATP and to get hireable, but now you get the hours for free and get an income. I grant that it is not going to make you rich, but we all start somewhere.

I fly with various instructors still, when I need to do a renewal, or a new rating, type check etc.. every one of them, from ATP Grade 1 (designated CAA) to the Comm Grade 11 (Grade 111 cant sign out) has a passion for what they do, and know that the rewards come in time.

BTW - the Grade 1 certainly gets paid more than a Grade 3 and a A344 training Captain gets even more..!!!

While I don't know where in the great aviation food chain you are at, maybe have a chat with the boss about uping the rate - but remember - it's a competative business, like any other..

Cheers

R

[Solid Rust Twotter]

250 hr MEIR/Comm/Instructor would put anyone pretty far down the experience ladder. Unfortunately, experience is not something that can be bought. At that level the instructor is passing on technical knowledge with a minimum of real experience. Gaining that experience will make any person more marketable, thus the move to a charter or contract organisation and thence on to the airlines if one is fortunate.

The market being what it is, there are plenty of people who would like to do your job and the owners of flying schools know it. The only thing you can do is to negotiate with management after making yourself invaluable to the school. If they choose not to increase your remuneration, you have the option of leaving. Harsh, I know, but that's the reality.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.:ok:

[I.R.PIRATE]

This is a subject that certainly gets me going. Firstly in my honest opinion.... I believe that it is CRIMINAL , to let 250hr pilots attempt to train and instruct other wannabe pilots. At 250hrs, and I dont care what you think, you do NOT have the ability to train somebody to operate, and most importantly THINK safely. You have only just attained the level of skill and thinking to PASS your com test. All your training until that point has been to prep you for that test...in this aviation world, it takes a lot more than a com test to make you a pilot.

Now before everyone tries to crucify me for trying to take the bread out of young pilot's mouths, I am obviously aware that this is the only option for most of our young pilots when they qualify, I just believe that that the quality of instruction, and therefore the quality of newly commed pilot, is dropping.

I also believe that when a student gets on board with an instructor, he quickly feels intuitively that this instructor is not there because he has any knowledge to pass on, but only to build hours, in the same way that he the student is. I have spoken to many students that say they can notice it, and that I can assure you, build no confidence on their side.

Now back to the topic. Yes I agree that something needs to be done about the salaries that companies are willing to pay instructors. That is the root of the problem, as the salaries are so unattractive, that they will never keep experienced instructors. Make it worthwhile to become a proffessional instructor, not just a lost comm pilot trying to build hours while damaging standards.

Okay, now go ahead and attack....:ok:

[Vlamgat]

It is becoming more apparant each day that all pilots want to get their comms and jump into a big aircraft and fly wherever it takes them, preferably a nice corporate job on a global!! Something small!!

However it does not work this way!! The best way to get there is hard work and dedication, therefore take the baby steps neccesary to reach your goals! In my days we started small and the first lesson was not in a classroom or in the air, it was around the aircraft, square the prop, do the seatbelts, clean the aircraft, look for oil leaks, satisfy yourself that you are getting into the most wonderfull clean little baby you can afford, then we go fly!!

So all I can say is take the baby steps, make sure that you are not underpaid for the level you are at, and progress in hours and experience up to such a point where you are able to demand a better salary. For each level you move onto satisfy yourself that you are capable of doing it.

I believe the going rates for entry level instucters are R85 an hour, which can go up to R150 rand an hour, if you dont have a snake at the head of the organisation. But remember who you are doing it for, and if I ask why do you fly? And your answer is, because it's cool or chicks dig it then it's the wrong answer you are doing it for youself and that takes a hell of a lotta effort, so if you're a flyer hang in there it will come to you!!

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsdoctaaway!!

[newcrew]

too IR PIRATE

what do you think of 200 hr "pilots" being a p2 on a monitored approch at night into FAPM with all the Wx etc that goes with it

ps there are paying pax at the back

[I.R.PIRATE]

Who are we talking about here, are they not trained before getting into that seat? Do they not have a COMPETENT capt. onboard? Im just not quite getting your point NEWCREW, are you agreeing or disagreeing.

Let me state my case clearly once again. I am a firm believer, in moving up the ranks timeously, and gaining the appropriate experience that is available at each level, without that, you create big gaps in a pilot's " upbringing", these gaps which normally later show themselves, when said super-pilot is doing a single pilot charter, or taking his family away in a smaller aircraft without his trusty captain etc. Yes he might think that he is the dogs bollox, having 2000 hours and 1800 of them are P2 in some regional or something. Put super-pilot into a baron and send him on a charter somewhere in bad weather, non precision appr.....engine failure......Sunday Times......

[B Sousa]

Well Boys and Girls...You want to fly and log hours, get paid....Grab your socks because the rest of the world is no easier.
Helicopter Pilots have it much worse. In these forums I see where Pilots are getting hired as fixed wing types with 250 more or less hours. Sure the jobs are remote, sometimes single engine etc..BUT they have a job.
In the helicopter world its not unusual to only find a job after 1000-1500 hours. A time builder at that till one has at least 1000 turbine.
Most of the kids today can only build that time by instructing and in the R-22 at best. So that means a lot of new helicopter Instructors are those 250-1000 hour pilots with little or no turbine time.
Avaition is not a field that is as stable as it once was, so if your out there and surviving, you are certainly persistant.

[Stayinalive]

Hey trubru
Unless u got over 2000hrs...get real...a lot of pros out there earning a lot less than U but are prepared to get out there and ger their hands blistered in the real world of aviation.:suspect:

[trubru]

To stayinalive- I've been flying for well over 6 yrs and more than 2000hrs , 700 hrs instruction and 1400 hrs in the bush before i started instructing.
I'm damn passionate about my work, but it's just a bit tough feeding a wife and two kids with an instruction salary. :(

I just wanted to remind people what a plumber, a junior manager, a shift manager in a factory, a barman and a waitress all have in common? THEY ALL GET PAID MORE THAN INSTRUCTORS.

now i've said it and its of my chest, shot for the replies!:ok:

[Goffel]

I think I understand what Trubru is trying to put accross.

Yes,instructors are under-paid.(I am talking about the true proffessional instructor and not the 250 hr hour builder).

R85.00/hour for instruction to the instructor is peanuts.
Sure,take it or leave it.
But at the end of the day,it is pee-poor money when you have just forked out all that loot for your comm,then your instructors.
Not too mention all the studying.

Before you say,all they have is 250 hours......if that is an issue,then should we not say,instructors should only be able to instruct once you have reached (?) 1000 hours and at least have some knowledge of what is actually going on in the real world of (bush) flying

Take the micro-light instructor.

He gets his micro-light licence (ppl) and then does his instructors (NO COMM NEEDED),and then puts R300/hour into his back pocket.
Yes,that's right,R300/hour and in a Jabaru or a Bushbaby,which in fact are both proper aeroplanes in the sense.
But the system allows it.

How many really good instructors have we lost because it really does not pay to instruct.

Pity.
As KTK says,"we all work for money".
AND as KTK says,"study for your ATP for that real job" and instruct as a hoby.

Take it or leave it.
:E

[I.R.PIRATE]

I once again have to thank goffel, for such an insightful,and truly intelligent remark. One day when we are big and special we'd all wanna be just like you. I would probably bet bottom dollar that you ve never had to get real down and dirty with the way most pilots in South Africa, have to make their daily living, but that is no concern for someone who will most probably have to skip the learning curve. Once you've got ANY experience to speak about whatsoever, then come back here and try re-educate us all.

Good luck............:ok:

[contraxdog]

I think, im seeing a duststorm in the making. I once overheard a negotiation, by a supplier and his client. The client wanted a better service than his current one, albeit at a lesser price. The supplier told the client if he wants a better and better service for less and less, he will most probably thinks the best service will be for free, and in that case he has to go and try and find that somewhere else, because despite all rumours, he is also in the business for the money.
C'mon guys can you honestly tell me at R85/hr with an legal limit of 100hr per month ,and realistic hrs of 50-60hrs/month this man can make a living, if he wants to be professional instructor? B_kt_s!

trubru, I think you must ask your self a couple of questions.
1. Do you want to work for a school that judge your professional ability value at R85/hr.
2. Are you not prepared to relocate, to a school in a different city/province?
3. Do you know what persentage of the invoiced rate to the student is yours? Are you happy with that?
4.Are students given the choice whether they wanted instuction from a R120/hr or R85/hr instructor?
5.Do you really want to be an professional instuctor, or can you afford to be one?

Answer, decide, execute!

Best of luck.
cntrxdg

[Vlamgat]

Hey Goffel

Do you know what happens to the reall good instructers?? They get hired by the CAA, ending up on triplicate payrolls ad then they really rip the SH*t ou of poor comm pilots who freelance for a living.

Poor instructors!! Get a life, work hard and earn your position, If you wanna run with the big dogs then you have to be able to
P!ss High!!!

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!

[Goffel]

IR Pirate.

You are so right in your personal comment on me.

I actually have no knowledge on the "in's and out's" of the salaries of instructors/pilots,nor do I have any experience in the world of aviation.

You see,I was one of the very fortunate guys who was born with a golden spoon in my mouth.

My flatmate is a groot baas for one of the BIG organisations and he gave me a job as a tea boy on this BIG aerie with jet engines.

But the Captain did not like tea,so they made me sit in the seat next to the captain and just gave me a rating for free.

All this at 240 hours.
:E

Vlamgat.

Regardless of where all the instructors move to (and if I read between the lines,you are talking about a certain instructor),at the end of the day,Tru-bru was just asking a valid question and how others felt.

Whether you agree on this forum or not,sit back and think about salaries.
I certainly agree with him.

I just dont (personal opinion ) agree with 250 hr pilots becoming instructors.
They certainly do not have the experience.
But as people will say,"where do you go for hours"???????.
:E

Flying training and experience is certainly not like the "Good old days",when as a student you went and washed aeries and did odd jobs around the airfield for a ride and were able to sit at the bar and chat to the "old bold"pilots and picked up as much info as you could.

But I still agree with Tru-Bru on his original question.
Cheers,I am off to the beach to smoggel.
:cool:

[Vlamgat]

Yo Goffel!

What Does Smoggel mean, or do you guys by the beach mean Smuggle?? What you doing down there crayfish and Perlemoen??

I Agree with you 250 Hours just aint cutting it!! But how else? I worked two jobs for two years paying my way through, I was one of the unlucky not born with the golden spoon! And I suffered plenty, sometimes stealing Zami's from the teatable, but I'll tell you it was worth it!!

So to conclude: While they are allowing instructors to preach with a measly 250 hours, there should be no such thing as bickering about payment!! Get your experience even if you have to do it like free like some of us!! I have a friend who helped two worthy guys with instruction to get heir PPL's And because I could afford it and owned a Cessna 172 I sponsored the aerie all they had to do was pay for fuel, I even payed the landing fees. My friend did not charge them a cent, he did it to give back and because he loved it. But the biggest of this all is those two boy'tjies Loved flying, they were not doing it for the show, and that fact remains to this day everytime I meet up with them!!

Si if you have 250 hours, you better vasbyt, or get yourself a desk and some paperwork!!

Now I am gonna have a triple G&T!! And maybe a snuggle
Cheers Goffel

Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway!

[Gunship]

Where are the days that old Rudi Brauershaven (what the hell happened to him by the way ???) was paid R5.00 and hour to teach me to fly :E :E :E

My last job paid me roughly $ 500.00 per hour ... take that bru :ok:

[Stayinalive]

trubru
No offence to you at all. Sounds like ur serious about what u do and respect yur family commitments.
I have the same but......
Travelling 8 months away on contract a year is directly proportional to financial reward and conversly zero travelling and instruction from home base is directly proportional to crappy pay.
Tis the way it is....gotta trade time for pay.
Just have a problem with the fact that an oke can go out there with 250 hrs and teach someone else.

[behindtheyoke]

There is another perspective to this debate.

As mentioned on one of the earlier posts, training schools are - like it or not - businesses. They need to remain competitive in order to attract the students.

A training operation cannot offer you higher pay than what is being paid in the market, or they will loose business and students, which in turn looses you hours and ultimately income.

What would you prefer - get paid R200 per hour and say only do 10 hours a month or 50 hours at R100?

Put yourself back to when you were looking for a school - which one of the two would you have chosen, assuming all other aspects of the schools are just about equal:

Aircraft R400 per hour
Instruction R 200 per hour
=R600 per hour ab initio

Aircraft R400 per hour
Instruction R 100 per hour.
=R500 per hour ab initio

Clearly a large number of students will select the second school. This will mean the first school will probably get very little business and their instructors will earn very little.

So the question is - which school would you prefer to instruct at?

Also remember flying training operates in a globally competitive market, so unless all flying schools the world around, up their instructor pay rates, you cannot expect your employer to make themselves less competitive.

[skyvan]

Sorry to stick my grubby nose into this discussion, but I really do take exception to the assertion the a 250hr instructor is not competent to instruct. As has been mentioned, the 250hr instructor is a technical teacher. He will be a Grade 3, and will do the kind of grunt work that needs to be done, all the ab-initio lessons that are straight "mission" sessions, such as S&L, turns, climbing, descending, gliding, basically all the straight and simple lessons. These lessons do not require a Chuck Yeager/Scully Levin for the student to benefit, sure it is nice to say "I was taught by one of the Greats", but do it really is not necessary.

Also the Grade 3 has to work under the supervision of a Grade 2 instructor, someone who has been a little further around the block, who will hopefully help to develop the Grade3's instructional style and experience base.

I have no problems with well prepared, highly motivated Grade 3 instructors who give quality instruction. There should be the more experienced instructors to take over the training towards the end of the course, leading to whatever the qualification to be attained.

I have personally tested enough pupils prepared by Grade 3s to know not to write them off. Even though some are using instruction to build hours, if they do it in a professional way, there is no problem. I must also say that the Grade 3 who instructs purely for the hours, and without the professional attitude that teaching requires, soon get booted from the flying schools that I have worked with (not always my influence ).

So, to the original question, are instructors underpaid? Basically, if initial instruction to build hours is seen as an apprenticeship, then probably not. Even lawyers and accountants do "articles" until they are competent to work in their own specialised fields. Unfortunately, nobody can afford to remain on an apprentice's salary all his life.

I feel that Instructor rates should be related to his ratings, and what work he is doing. R100/hr for a grade 3 should be OK, he should be able to upgrade to grade 2 within 6 months (max).

Grade 2 should be higher for normal instruction, say R125/hr, R200/hr for testing and conversions (he is now signing, and taking more responsibility), Multi-engine and turbine instruction R400/hr, and Grade 1's should also have a premium paid, for recieving the benefit of the experience that they possess.

Quite frankly, I no longer charge for instruction, but that is because I only do the kind of instruction that I enjoy. I will not allow myself to be tied into a flying school to do ab-initio work, which I hate, for the kind of money that barely covers my petrol cost of getting there. But there again, I have done my apprenticeship!