the pilot weight issue....

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Pilot weight: I often see FI jobs advertised in the US specifiying that the pilot should be no more than 180lbs - How important is weight an issue across the world job market for heli pilots? Has anyone ever been refused a position due to their weight? (whether a natural occourance or they are overweight ) - or worse - sacked for becoming overweight? This topic has been touched before but never debated. Thanks porkies !!:p

[SASless]

You reckon maybe....the aircraft being used for EMS in the States are underepowered if you have to limit the pilot weight (including all gear...helmet, flight suit, cold weather gear, flight bag, torch, etc...) to 180 or 195 pounds. Maybe,they are using the wrong aircraft for the work?

Lets have a debate over the suitabliity of the JetRanger L series....L through L3 for this kind of work in high, hot areas....into unlit confined areas at night.

That would be the better question.

[flyer43]

Weighing in at a "well honed" 240 pounds (plus or minus) I have often found that I am not in a minority amongst the heli fraternity, particularly those on the North Sea who get treated to offshore packed lunches at every opportunity. Not sure what that would equate to when trussed up in a flight suit, helmet, goggles, boots, spurs, clean underwear and wallet.........

Isn't there some form of "ism" covering discrimination against size and/or weight in a similar way those which prevent various other forms of employment discrimination?

Anyway, what's wrong with operating a 206L into an unlit confined area up a mountain at night with no wind and 34 degrees C? .....................

[SASless]

43...American pilots do not have to consider the wallet as do the North Sea guys....unless moths weigh more than we think.:{


Besides....every time I think of having to fly a Robbie...I just order up a double cheese burger with large fries.

[flyer43]

iwanttofly

That might depend on your gender.........

[Thomas coupling]

Could anyone imagine being refused a job, or sacked because they are "dimensionally challenged"":eek:

Even though we all know it goes on behind the scenes:suspect:

[Hilico]

Iwanttofly, being 140lbs won't be much of a help on your first 206 job - G-BAKS (for example) was placarded 'minimum pilot weight 150lbs'.

[Whirlybird]

Iwanttofly,

If you're instructing on the R22 or similar, it might. I was only doing trial lessons, but I'm supposed to be doing the whole course with one chap who doesn't want to learn on the R44, but if the CFI flies with him in the R22, they won't be able to take any fuel! :( Mind you, I heard this weeks ago, and he hasn't turned up yet. :{ But it's always a possibility.

The downside is that you'll need ballast if flying the R44 or B206 solo, and if below 135lbs, with full fuel, the R22 as well.

[SASless]

I can recall having to have a ballast bag when flying Alouette III's with no doors and those whopping big sand filters....although today....that would not be a problem. If we could fly it from the correct seat I could probably remove that lean it has built into it as well.:{

[flyer43]

My balast problems during my student training days were the other way round. In the summer months I could only take one particular student flying when the tanks were half full or less. He started off with limited power manoeuvres! It wasn't entirely his problem, as I mentioned earlier.....

SASless, I don't think my wallet ever actually caused a problem with weight as "her indoors" usually makes sure it is kept as light as possible!!

[wishtobflying]

I raised this previously, but from the point of view of economics. Every kilogram, or 2.2 pounds, you lose is that much more you can charge to carry.

I think there should be some sort of incentive scheme to pay pilots a percentage of that increased payload - make it fair and develop team atmosphere by giving the bonus to all pilots based on kilos lost.

240 pounds could in 12 months be 175 pounds - that's 65 pounds of extra cargo, pax or fuel, 65 pounds of money-making PAYload.

Seems like a good financial incentive for the operator, and a good health incentive for the pilots. The healthy part is good for the operator as well - a healthier pilot will be more alert, less illness-prone, etc.

[flyer43]

'ere, are you saying I'm sick??? Now what were we talking about - Oh yes, I remember now......any chance of paying me in advance for possible weight loss?? I promise I'll try hard to diet etc...

[Watchoutbelow]

I think there should be some sort of incentive scheme to pay pilots

Short arses would say anything to get a job!!
Until they start piling on the pounds due to abnormal eating patterns when on that job!
That extra 65 lb passanger you may squeeze in isn't going to make the difference between the company going bankrupt or making a fortune!

One thing I find about some larger people in some helis, is when their belly hangs out, there sometimes isn't enough aft cyclic to hover downwind or even flare, which can be a tad worrying!
It can be very embarrising for the person involved.

[SASless]

WTBF....

You trying to suggest you are management material to someone above you?

In case you have not noticed....the operators are already engaged in such an effort but like most things in the helicopter industry...it was only partially successful.

They are holding the wages down...thinking we will consume less thereby accomplishing the goal of the plan you suggest but without having to pay the pilots for accomplshing that task for them.

It has backfired as most innovative thoughts from on high do....we are eating and drinking less....but due to cost issues we are sticking to cheap beer and high carb diets of potatoes, rice, and hamburgers....instead of the healthier but leaner fine wines, old whiskey and salmon, steak, and fresh fruit and green salads...all of which are beyond our means. After working fourteen hour days....we cram that fattening food down our gullet...wash it down with 29 tins of beer....so we are drunk enough to sleep in the midst of five snoring monsters. Thus, I fear your grand plan comes apart because the big oogahs have beaten you to it.:E

[bauldrik]

More weight means moor fuel and less preformance ? so a lean mean pilot means healthy and agile , less illness and less costs ?
I think .

And on the subject weight , when i fly in a large jet if i am 10 stone with only hand luggage then why can't i have a reduction in price of the ticket and the fat ( person ) that i am plonked next to should have to pay more .

There is only one reason for being a blob , the eating hole in the head is larger then the other hole that thay sit on .

[wishtobflying]

I got on a flight recently with a suitcase full of tools and was 7 kg over the 20kg limit. I said to the girl "you know it's funny, if I'd been standing here a year ago you would have been checking me in 30kg heavier, not considering the baggage weight". She just looked at me blankly, I coughed up the excess charge and moved on.

[PhilJ]

bauldrik

so you not being a blob means that the eating hole is smaller than the other hole?

I'd book a visit to the doc if i were you

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

what a disappointing post. Happy Easter yaw'll - just watch the egg consumption !!

[SASless]

FS,

This too like all things will pass. ;)

[L'WAAPAM]

When i did my 212 conversion i seem to remember (2 years ago) there was a MINIMUM pilot wieght for flying solo( 80 KG?). The Instructor insisted we put extra balast behind the pilots seat to make up for the fact we were solo.

What happens if you are a fit bint?

[SASless]

You feather merchants wonder why the gray beards are built like bowling pins.....easier to carry it around yer middle...frees up a hand for other things.

[L'WAAPAM]

SASless

As I always said to the Old, Heavier, Grey'er LYNX guys "we are the new breed!" funnily enough thats the same story I was spouting when I was a young Plant Operator before I saw the light and came flying.

Better pilots? I dont think so. DIFFERENT? Still like sitting in the bar listening to how WE did it! Well most of the time any how.

Especially when i'm flying cabs older than I am! I did'nt even do that in the Mob
and they have got far less money than the average civvie set up!!!

Wally says "HI" by the way!? Well he actually said....................

L'

Going on from this does anyone "SUFFER" from standard wieghts that just dont meet the grade!?

I was doing a troop lift the other day and the BOOKED amount of guys was X " We take a Combat troop with ALL his Kit as (wieghed) 300lbs)" WE call 1+1(ie 1 GUY + 1 Pack)

I landed on and these guys start throwing on 1 Pack and 1 Grip/Bag to go into the junglr for 8 days! Needless to say we were kicking them off one by one until we could lift without frying the engines.

The point i\'m making is we are (most of the time) supposed to work to set weights for cargo and invariably they\'re wrong.

Anyone else come across this in your daily grind or do Ops staff sort it. Or is it as many bums on seats as possible?

L\'

[Whirlygig]

What happens if you are a fit bint?
You called?

I don't know, what DOES happen if you're a fit bint? A short, fit bint to boot?

Cheers

Whirlygig

[L'WAAPAM]

Whirly

Its all Japanese to me, but , I was once told that you could not fly 212 solo if you were under 80kg? ish.

Now personally 80kg is about my limit on weight for women(bints, in south UK)

Thats what it was for

L'

[Whirlygig]

Yes L' - I understood the joke. Whether I am fit is not for me to say but I can still run up several fligts of stairs and can still turn a few heads (usually the old gits). My father was known to call me a "dozy bint" and I'm not particularly tall.

So, what happens if the pilot of a 212 is undertall and underweight?

Cheers

Whirlygig

PS - I thought "bint" was Arabic for daughter.

[SASless]

Wampum.....

If you think you have a problem with standard weights now....you just wait until you hit the oil patch. Oil patch weigh scales are notorious for underweighing.

Bubba, who is a gargantuan proportioned multi-celled organism that looks like Bluto in the cartoons....goes from ears to shoulders and is about as thick as he is tall.....thicker in some regards....will cross the helideck dragging two seabags because he cannot pick them up and maybe a footlocker sized toolbox....total weight.....235 pounds. That wee flange looking thing....that takes four bubba's to pick it up.....65 pounds.

You will find the mass and balance is computed with your left hand....and the torque gauge. Your training captain will tell you...oh..just have the dispatchers re-weigh things and we will submit a Voyage Report....blah...blah...blah.

All that does is confuse Bubba because he cannot read and what the heck Boudreaux...the other pilot brung it out here no problem....dontcha know!

[Whirlybird]

Fit bints carry ballast. If flying alone, it might as well be useful ballast, like a flight bag with everything you could conceivably need and then some. If picking up passengers, take a large plastic container of water, then you can empty out the water when you don't need ballast any more.

A better alternative is to take a young, goodlooking, male navigator. :ok:

[L'WAAPAM]

Whirlygig

Didnt mean to cause offence old girl, but, one can only speek by one's upbringing, dont you know. SORRY.

We currently operate to a reduced AUW limit simply because of the landing sites we operate to. IE +40 2500 agl no run onn/off
you either call the landing on take off or you dont go(hence chucking pax off before you lift)

If you are solo and do not meet the weight, then the Cof G is all to pot and you probably wont be able to go as fast as you would like and it all gets a bit interesting.

SASless

After a bit of advive, normally we will not contemplate lifting in a 212 in the jungle if we dont have 20% in hand, due to the fact you will have to do a 150-250' climb to clear the canopy and then a little bit more to transtion.

What sort of margins where you working to in your time on 212?

Cheers

L'

[Blind]

L'

would that 80kg limit be an upper or lower limit???

[SASless]

Margins varied with the operator...within operators....within operations within operators....and within the pilots at the operation. The honest way of putting it....whatever you thought you could get away with usually....paper calculations were a start...then it went to the Q meter....Nr....and experience check.

At a very warm and sandy place where things not muslim were not tolerated...and aroma of peach snapps at the border checkpoint was usually quite strong on their way north...we cut weight by a chart made up locally.

It was for a Bell 212, No SAS, -3B engines...30 minute OEI power and 500' PA as givens.....

+37C 11200
38 11114
39 11028
40 10942
41 10856
42 10770
43 10684
.. ..........
52 9910


The 412EP's did not cut weight at all....stayed at 11,900.

They also cut weight for night operations...in both aircraft....to provide a margin of safety considering an engine failure at night.

At a place in a muddy, restive place, inhabited by effusive people....

We used the concept of calculating several weights considering the operation we were doing...offshore deck, unstable deck, runway, or confined area , or restricted takeoff from a mud rig...which all came to different weights usually. I cannot begin to remember the numbers for all that.

212man might be able to throw some numbers at us.....

The US Forest Service uses OGE hover calculations for most operations to rough landing spots....with the option of the pilot or aircraft manager to further cut weight if needed....and also includes jettisonable weight (underslung load weight) in their calculations too. No 212 data handy to work out a load calc for the 2500 foot altitude you mention.

My basic rule offshore was 10% in hand....at a ten foot hover....then look for the upwelling air.....for a bonus. Will have to admit...sometimes it was a 3-5 foot hover with only a collective lever in hand.....and look for the upwelling air.....

Wind was important...more wind...less in hand needed to go...no wind or unfavorable wind...more in hand needed. Vertically to 150-200 feet....out of a confined area....20% sounds fair to everyone...pilot, pax, and employer.

[L'WAAPAM]

Blind,

DEFINATELY the upper limit, C'Mon man!!!

L'