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Capt.KAOS
22nd Mar 2005, 17:19
I'm amazed that a hot issue currently dominating the US and international news, even forcing Kaiser George to interrupt his vacation (how many already this year?) has not been discussed on this esteemed forum.

Does Terri Schiavo have to die? Does her husband has the right to terminate her life, because sh can't eat by herself or say goodnight?

For once I agree with Bush; let her live and let Mr.Schiavo give her back to her parents so she can die in her own time.

AFFIDAVIT from Terri Schiavo's nurse (http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/CIyerAffidavit090203.htm)

Onan the Clumsy
22nd Mar 2005, 17:28
I'm amazed that a hot issue currently dominating the US and international news...has not been discussed on this esteemed forum.
That's because JetBlast isn't a tabloid.

Jerricho
22nd Mar 2005, 17:31
I'll play.

Isn't Dubya really getting involved because his brother Jeb has made some interesting interventions (some issues which have blown up in his face, such as health care for all). Seems it's now out of Jeb's hands, and big bro is stepping in..

And of all the flack leveled at the husband (recently he has been acting like a SOB), did he not attend nursing school in an attempt to better care for his wife?

I do find this an interesting comment Kaos:

give her back to her parents so she can die in her own time.

Without the tube that has been stuffed down her throat several times now, she would have long before now.

Along the lines of what Onan said, LIFE is not a tabloid. Whatever pathetic little political gains the players in this sad affair are gaining, splashing it across media outlets the country (and the world over) is just sick. Deep down, it's just political figures involved in a masquerade of "Aren't my ethics better than yours.........vote for me!!"

Onan the Clumsy
22nd Mar 2005, 17:35
Does Terri Schiavo have to die? We all have to do that.

Does her husband has the right to terminate her life He's not doing. He's asking that it not be continued.

AntiCrash
22nd Mar 2005, 17:59
Ms Schiavo's brain has been irreparably damaged. Proper doctors have spent years studying the situation and have concluded she has no spontaneous control. Including those appointed by the state of Florida last go around. Her skull has been for the most part filled with spinal fluid as her brain has turned to mush. I will have to go with their findings not those of a LPN.

The responsibility for her is solely her husbands, then it would have been her children, then other blood relatives such as her parents. I cannot imagine the loss of a child such as they have had. The whole scenario is gut wrenching. Perhaps yhey cannot imagine it either and that is why they continue to hang on.

Her fate is tragic but no more tragic than fates suffered by people all over the world all of the time. It is criminal that the Bush's have made this a cause celebrity to galvanize the fanatical religious right. OBFUSCATION is the operative word here.

A Republican memorandum was found indicating that this was a great cause to do just that. Tom Dulay should be very happy that there is something else grabbing the news headlines and not his illegal campaign indescretions. Not to mention the lessening of the time devoted on the nightly news dedicated to the War in Iraq or the fact we still can't find some guy riding a goat in Afganistan.

Bush is making a power grab and eliminating the rights of the citizens and those of the states. Don't be fooled by this plonker's supposed humanity and caring for this tragic woman. It is bollocks.

The sword cuts both ways. When the government has assumed the power over your family decisions you will have yourself to blame.

goates
22nd Mar 2005, 18:18
Are the parents doing this for her or themselves because they can't accept that, by all accounts, their daughter is already gone? Sometimes I wonder if people fight Nature a little too much in order avoid pain.

The governemnt shouldn't be involved in this at all, but the parents have been lobbying and appealing this for some time now. Bush may be using this now for his own reasons, but he didn't start it.

If there was a good chance that she would recover, then she should be kept alive. She has been like this for years though and it sounds like no doctor expects her to recover. And if Nature is allowed to run it's course, she will be in a much better place than this.

This is a terrible position for anyone to be in, let alone have it become political.

goates

Jerricho
22nd Mar 2005, 18:20
Hey Scrubbed,

You don't like it mate.......then why are you here????? :rolleyes:

(You sure you're not One Ball?)

Jerricho
22nd Mar 2005, 18:49
No, just don't like people who are blatently here to just to cause trouble.

Evening Star
22nd Mar 2005, 18:53
people who are blatently here to just to cause trouble.

Applies to about 95% of us here I would say (says ES stirring up trouble?!).:\

(PS. Agree with the 'pathetic little political gains' comment.)

Jerricho
22nd Mar 2005, 18:54
Actually, that's a good point. Withdrawn..........

Onan the Clumsy
22nd Mar 2005, 18:54
Here's a dilemma: What would Bush do it it was Scrubbed who's feeding tube got removed? :}

OneWorld22
22nd Mar 2005, 19:29
A stark indication of the blind fear the Republican party have of Christian Evangelical groups.

Very worrying.

White Bear
22nd Mar 2005, 19:42
I couldn’t agree more with AntiCrash.

This is a very sad situation made so much worse by the public maneuverings of a Government backed by the Christian right wing and it’s perverse agenda.

It is an obvious attempt to gain political access and control (once again) over the lives, homes, and bedrooms of the population of the U.S.

No Government has any place mandating morals to its people.

If only Arthur Miller were still alive and writing, what a scathing exposition he could write.
Regards,
W.B.

Ian Corrigible
22nd Mar 2005, 19:54
Not an easy one to call. It's shameful to see so much political attention paid to one life when so little is given to hundreds of thousands elsewhere, especially when it's the religious right that's doing most of the lobbying.

For those not familiar with the case, it's been overshadowed by claims that Terri's husband (now with a common law wife) had a hand in her condition (which is believed to be irreversible). There is - to the best of my knowledge - no proof whatsoever, but it obviously raises doubts.

If - as is most likely the case - the guy is entirely innocent and simply doing what he believes his wife would have wanted, he must be angry as hell to see the political circus which has grown up around Terri's case (not least when a businessman offered him $1m to leave her tube in. That'd certainly pi$$ me off). It’s never pretty to see politicians second-guess trained professionals.

For any who ever watched Lorenzo's Oil will know, persistent vegetative state is about the worst nightmare that one could imagine - not being able to communicate with the world, or signal one's desires. For those of us who are control freaks, it's hard to contemplate a worse scenario.

That said, if it was my wife I'd still have a real difficulty in pulling the tube, especially given they will allow her condition to degenerate over 20 days rather than putting her out of her misery straight away.

One strange aspect to the case is that George W., when Governor, actually passed a law which allowed medicare patients in such conditions to be 'unplugged.' He has little personal interest in scoring points from this particular case - he cannot, after all, be re-elected for a third term - so the question is: what's changed ?

:(

I/C

Onan the Clumsy
22nd Mar 2005, 20:12
That said, if it was my wife I'd still have a real difficulty in pulling the tube What if it was your Mother in Law? :E

tony draper
22nd Mar 2005, 20:22
As I understand it the cost of caring for someone in a vegetative state can be ruinous especially in the USA.
one assumes that if the powers that be their way they will foot the bill?
I am all for keeping people alive if there is some hope of recovery but from what I have heard this is a hopless case.
My mother left this world in all but name about six months before she died, it must be much more distressing for a family for this to go on for years.
We are begining to see religion interfearing in politics here, re abortion,slap em down I say.

Onan the Clumsy
22nd Mar 2005, 20:28
That's one of the many ironies about this. Medicaid is footing the bill. The same Medicaid that this administration is so keen to reduce.

(or is it Medicare, I get 'em confused)

Kolibear
22nd Mar 2005, 21:00
My father died of lung cancer, he deteriorated quite quickly and in the end, he was drugged to unconsciousness and the drip was keeping him alive. In the end, we removed the drip and he died shortly after.

My mother, like TD's, declined over a period of years. She lost the ability to talk and used a speech synthesiser. Then she lost her ability to walk and finally she couldn't swallow. This meant she couldn't eat, drink, move or communicate. She had a stomach tube fitted, which enaled her to be kept alive.

(Concidentally at the exact time she was having the tube inserted in her stomach, I was having emergency surgery in the same hospital to whip out my appendix. The last time we had surgery together was when I was born)

Now, she was being kept alive, but to what purpose? She was an intelligent woman and her brain was still working, she knew what was happening and hated it. When she finally did die of natural causes, I'm sure that it was a great relief for her.

As far as I can make out, Terri is not dying, withholding food will starve her to death. But is the alternative any better, maintaining a living body because no one wants to see her die? I don't know.

Capt.KAOS
22nd Mar 2005, 21:04
That's because JetBlast isn't a tabloid. Oh really? Do you read your own messages Clumsy One?

Removing the tube means in fact starvation and dehydration causing death in a process of 8-20 days.

I agree it's a shame politics is getting involved with their own agenda, but why did Terri's husband have to involve the law to end her life? Why didn't he say to her parents: she yours, I can't go on like that? The parents would have understood that and not even blame him for that. If that would have happened all this media drama would not have occured.

Terri is not a plant or terminal ill suffering unbearable pain, if you look at the videos she is interacting, read that affidavit link in my first post again.

I've seen dozens if these patients being taken care of by their loved ones with great affection for a longer period of time. These are one of these few things in life that warms my heart. Ending their lifes because their brain is not working as it should be reminds me of the 3r Reich, especially under the excuse of monetary reasons valueing Terri’s life solely in terms of cost-benefit analysis. :rolleyes:

Medicaid has been picking up the tab for Schiavo's medications for two years, while the hospice provides care for free.

Grandpa
22nd Mar 2005, 21:11
Makes me more sad because the sight of this poor woman makes me think of my parents who had to endure the same sufferings in their last days.

The only positive aspect of this thread is I have another occasion to agree with Tony!

Onan the Clumsy
22nd Mar 2005, 21:18
I would never sink so low as to read my own posts that'd be like ...oh never mind.

In fact I really do think it's a tremendously serious subject, but I hold an opposing opinion, namely that were I to be in her shoes, I think I would want to depart, and that seems to be what her husband is doing. If anything, it's all the other meddling outsiders (not you) who are becoming involved for their own ends and as much as you have seen situations that warm your heart, their actions create the exact opposite feeling for me.

I see a lot of hypocrisy here (again not you). The federal government should respect States' rule, but not here, Medicaid should be cut, but not here. This life is so important, and yet we're at war killing thousands.

Why should her husband be involved? Because at some time when we become adults, we live our own lives and if anything make some bonds with our partners that are stronger, and recognised more deeply in legal circles, that with our families.

I just wonder how many of the people arguing so strongly to reinsert the feeding tube would hold that same opinion if it were their own body under seige.

Capt.KAOS
22nd Mar 2005, 21:26
The question, Grandpa, is she suffering?

SmilingKnifed
22nd Mar 2005, 21:44
I'm not sure what would happen to Arthur Miller nowadays Whitebear, the spirit of McCarthy seems alive and well.

I'm not sure what to say about this particular case, it's truly harrowing for all those genuinely involved (not the sick fraks its seemed to have drawn).

The media coverage over here has been nothing short of disgraceful, constantly appealing to the lowest common denominator with cheap, sensationalist journalism.

Many decent Americans wonder how the rest of the world can consider them a bunch of [email protected], maybe they should watch more of their TV.

fernytickles
22nd Mar 2005, 21:44
Doesn't M. Bush like to take with one hand and give with the other. Didn't he approve quite a number of executions in his time, and now he's fighting to prolong life? I know they are not directly related situations, it just strikes me as being a wee bit ironic.

Ian Corrigible
22nd Mar 2005, 22:07
Onan,

If it was the MIL ? Wouldn't make any difference. Drove a stake through her heart that one time. She simply woke up and started complaining about my driving...

:E

I/C

Capt Claret
22nd Mar 2005, 23:50
Onan said, I just wonder how many of the people arguing so strongly to reinsert the feeding tube would hold that same opinion if it were their own body under seige.

I couldn't agree more. I really wonder how many people after proper consideration of the concept of a prolonged vegetative state, would ask their parents or children to spend a life time watching them in said state?

I don't want that for Mrs Claret, or for my children. I don't want to be a burden on any of them and a I don't want to be a drain on society's scarce medical resources.

Both Mrs C and I have instructed each other that we are not to be "kept" should we suffer from an accident or medical condition that prevents us leading a productive life.

After the hypocritic events in the US the past few days (100s of 1000s killed worldwide yet trample over individual rights to "save" one person) I'll have to investigate ways of ensuring my wishes are carried out, and not interfered with by well meaning family who perhaps don't know my wishes, or chose to disregard them.

Personally I would prefer in the Shiavo case, and similar ones, that society had a system in place where the soon to be deceadant could be sped on their way, rather than be left to starve.

Say again s l o w l y
23rd Mar 2005, 00:41
This whole situation and especially the political furore that has grown up around it smacks of another agenda.

Could Bush be trying to push through an anti-termination law that would effecively ban abortions as well?
It shows how cynical I have become as I now always look for the ulterior motive from any politician.

Blacksheep
23rd Mar 2005, 01:28
Has anyone round here ever been in Intensive Care on a feeding tube? I have. After surgery in 1991 I was in the ICU on a respirator and feeding tube (lots of other tubes too - 17 in all). I was comatose most of the time, on a cocktail of pankillers. When wide awake I couldn't speak or move - I could only communicate with my eyes or by wriggling my toes or fingers. I could hear every word spoken in my presence, even when they put me under with the drugs. Its pretty scary being a slab of meat that no-one talks to. You can't tell people you are too cold or too hot or about that infuriating itch in the middle of your back. For me it was only a week. For Terri its been several years - has anyone asked her what she wants? From what I've seen of her on TV she's no more of a vegetable than anyone else in ICU and I'm sure that, like me back in '91, she can hear; She also seems capable of eye response.

Never mind Congress, try asking Terri.

reynoldsno1
23rd Mar 2005, 01:38
I just wonder how many of the people arguing so strongly to reinsert the feeding tube would hold that same opinion if it were their own body under seige.

Indeed. My own father's health deteriorated repidly in his last 6 months. He became virtually bedridden. He took an overdose and told my Mum. She cuddled him for 5 hours to be with him at the end, and then he woke up. Unfortunately, the pills damaged him even more and he was taken to hospital. He refused treatment, and removed all his catheters himself. He died 24 hours later, as was his wish.

His last wish was that he be recycled (his very words). He was cremated, and a very healthy cherry tree now grows from his ashes.

And that's how I remember him - as he was, stubborn, obstinate and his own man to the end. I certainly wouldn't want to carry a memory of a loved one staring blankly into space out of a mass of tubes.

Let her go.....

Wino
23rd Mar 2005, 03:16
This is an interesting case for a couple of reasons.

I think congress overstepped their bounds here, and that may lead to other problems in the future, but the real issue is WHO gets to decide, a spouse or a parent.

Its a very interesting question, in a case where the patient didn't have a living will so her feelings were not clearly spelled out.

In my case I think I would rather have my spouse make the decision, unless of course she made the wrong one, then I would want my parents to make the choice.:rolleyes:

It wasn't that long ago that the Karen ann QUinland (Quaalude) case first made it even possible to remove a respirator. Its a VERY long stretch from heroic measures to prolong a life to the more simple food and water however.

Its a media circus, but its dealing with some interesting stuff. If more people get living wills, then its worth it.

Cheers
Wino

Capt Claret
23rd Mar 2005, 05:27
Blacksheep

The following quote explains why Terri hasn't been asked.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs.

The quote is taken from this site (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) run by a person who claims to be a law blogger (whatever that is) with an interest in the law of the case but no vested interest with any of the parties involved.

BlueDiamond
23rd Mar 2005, 06:16
The only person who should be making this decision is the one who is unable to speak up for herself. Her husband says that she would not want to continue like this and I don't think we have any reason to doubt the truth of that. Could any one of us honestly say that we would choose to "live" such a miserable existence?

Capt.KAOS
23rd Mar 2005, 09:11
Her husband says that she would not want to continue like this and I don't think we have any reason to doubt the truth of that.
"When is she going to die?,” “Has she died yet?” and “When is that bitch gonna die?”
Micheal Schiavo (Carla Sauer's affidavit) .

Do you still believe he's a caring husband, BlueDiamond?

Say again s l o w l y
23rd Mar 2005, 09:46
Capt.K, I don't think you can base an argument on a couple of comments like that.

People who are going through such terrible experiences sometimes lash out, there may well be some resentment there, since this horrible situation has gone on for such a long time and completely taken over his life. I would get p*ssed off by it as well, remember that the woman this man fell in love with has gone I think we would all harbour a lot of anger and resentment if we were in his place.

Again, we now seem to have a preoccupation in extending human life when all hope has gone out of the window, yes there are occasional miracles but this case won't be one of the, the damage is just too great.

We all seem to be afraid of death to such an extent that we'll prolong someone who if they could talk or communicate would probably tell them to bog off and leave them at peace.

A situation like this does nobody any good, the family gets ripped apart, the hurt continues for years longer than it needs to and eventually politicians with no morals or true understanding start to stick their oar in to further their own agendas.

It is a very distasteful media circus and I certainly wouldn't want something like this going on around me if I was in the terrible state.

Let the poor woman rest.

eastern wiseguy
23rd Mar 2005, 09:53
Without discussing the specifics.......what an appalling way to allow someone to die(if the tube is removed).I can think of very few more cruel ways to end life than by dying of thirst.I have always maintained that we in the "civilised" west alow our animals a better deal at the end than our fellow human beings.

When it comes Mrs EW is insturcted to have the pillow over my face asap...mind you ...will she wait?.....:confused:

BlueDiamond
23rd Mar 2005, 11:39
Do you still believe he's a caring husband, BlueDiamond?
I have no idea what sort of a husband he is KAOS and I cannot see how you have drawn the inference that I think him a caring one.

I believe he is being truthful simply because I can not imagine anyone actually saying to their spouse words to the effect of, "If I am ever reduced to a vegetative state, I want you to keep me alive for as long as possible." I can, however, believe that such a person would say something like, "Do not make me live like that."

On that basis, I believe he is telling the truth.

SpinSpinSugar
23rd Mar 2005, 12:53
I agree with fernytickles, the merits of this particular case aside it still irritates to hear Dubya and the candle-waving brigade harping on about the sanctity of life whilst still merrily advocating the death penalty, especially given it's application to those who are mentally ill, have developmental problems, etc.

Still - back on topic - does bring to the fore the need to produce a living will in the event that such unfortunate events may occur to oneself. Must get round to doing that, been on the back-burner for ages. One can provide SOME direction for ones own future treatment, and at the very least define who should have a hand in such decisions.

SSS

PilotsPal
23rd Mar 2005, 15:30
Am I wrong, or doesn't Mr Schiavo have a family with another woman these days? For all we know, he may be very anxious to have the chance to marry the mother of his children.

As for "living wills", there is such a thing as an an enduring power of attorney (under English law). I have one, and have done for many years. The holder of that power of attorney has very clear instructions as to my wishes.

BenThere
23rd Mar 2005, 16:16
It has been reported that the husband has a girlfriend and two children with her. I don't see why he doesn't just turn over his wife's affairs to her family and be done with it. With his new family, he has a clear motive to get the ailing one out of the way.

I agree, it should not be a government issue. But I wonder how altruistic the family would be if they, not medicare, were picking up the tab.

Although this case has been on the news radar for a few years, it only became a national political issue in the last few weeks, when the feeding tube was ordered removed.

My take? Keep her alive until all the court cases are settled and appeals exhausted. That option is revocable, the other is not. Mrs. Schiavo is not in any apparent agony or even discomfort, which would mitigate for those wanting termination.

It's easy to say you wouldn't want to live that way when you are healthy. I think it's a much more difficult call when it sinks in that your life is really on the line.

The most important danger of this whole case is getting the federal government involved in law that has been reserved for the states. The feds deciding who lives and dies is unsettling.

Nani
23rd Mar 2005, 16:41
This is a sad case indeed and I agree the feds have no business meddling in our lives and in our deaths except collecting taxes.:{

I'm glad the husband finally remembered Mrs.Schiavo's wishes soon after settling the malpractice suit in the amount of $1M.
I'm wondering if any part of that money went to her,consequently deferring to her spouse when she expires?

How many 20 some year olds we know who thinks about what happens in case if they find themselves in a vegetative state or drawing a will unless it is forced by parents in able to transfer trusts or businesses?

Let the mother who carried her for 9 months take her home to care for her. If we are paying for her care,we are also paying for upkeeps of umpteen killers for years and years as they wait on the death row which it seems they have more rights than this poor woman.

ORAC
23rd Mar 2005, 17:05
"I'm glad the husband finally remembered Mrs.Schiavo's wishes soon after settling the malpractice suit in the amount of $1M. I'm wondering if any part of that money went to her,consequently deferring to her spouse when she expires?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------


November 1992: Michael Schiavo wins case against doctors he accused of misdiagnosing his wife; awarded $700,000 for her care and $300,000 for himself.

May 1998: Mr Schiavo files petition to remove Mrs Schiavo's feeding tube.

....."[The] money, which Michael Schiavo received in 1993, has all but evaporated - spent on his wife's care and the court fight. Just $40,000 to $50,000 remained as of mid-March".

Nani
23rd Mar 2005, 17:10
Thanks Orac,I'll stand corrected.

Chief Chook
23rd Mar 2005, 19:00
Like the politicans and the legal eagles the main discussion here, so far, has been about whether or not Terri Schiavo should be kept alive by means of an IV tube, or DEHYDRATED/STARVED TO DEATH by denying her those nutrients.
If an animal were INTENTIONALLY subjected to death by STARVATION/DEHYDRATION, by its human carer, then serious charges would follow.

For those who have children, try to imagine what Terri's parents, Mr and Mrs Schindler (and their 2 other children) are going through right now, as their child is MADE TO DIE a slow death.
To me, this is more the crux of this issue, the barbarity.

And as for my opinion of Michael Schiavo - he has only, during the media interviews I've seen him in, spoken of HIS RIGHTS.
This is possibly one example of the difference between parents' "inherited" and everlasting love, and love that is "acquired" and frequently "occasional" or "non-permanent".

Onan the Clumsy
23rd Mar 2005, 19:46
is MADE TO DIE a slow death which one? the one week without tube, or the fifteen plus years with tube?

Grandpa
23rd Mar 2005, 21:23
....and I think Bkacksheep and Rey1 have given the answer you asked me.

When you KNOW what it is really to be a puppet in nurses hands, when they can't find any more a suitable place for injections, when your back is only bedsore............when any hope is gone for your resurection...............I wouldn't hesitate one second.

Grainger
23rd Mar 2005, 21:23
Very sad. Impossible situation, either way.

All I know is - if I end up in that kind of state, I'd want someone to pull the plug pronto and make with the pillow over the face.

Nani
23rd Mar 2005, 21:50
All I know is - if I end up in that kind of state, I'd want someone to pull the plug pronto and make with the pillow over the face.

Unfortunately the person who puts the pillow over the face will face man slaughter charge.

Best way to avoid any misunderstanding is to draw up a living will,assign someone with a power of attorney and a will.

I've had a living will for many years and it clearly states that upon declaration of no brain activities,doctors could keep me on a life supporting machine for 48 hours.
That gives enough time for finding right matches for harvesting whatever they need from this old bag of bones.
You need to spell out everything in detail and no one can challenge that piece of notarized paper.

Onan the Clumsy
23rd Mar 2005, 22:09
upon declaration of no brain activities Better not let them see prune then :}



I know, I know. I take it back :(

henry crun
23rd Mar 2005, 22:17
I understand the parent side of the family have been to court some 8 or 9 times over the years to plead their case, and have not won a single one.

If this report is correct, it seems to me that during those many hours of court hearings the judges would have heard every single shred of evidence that it is possible to gather.
Each time they have found in favour of the husband. Maybe they know more about it than all the rest of us.

Blacksheep
24th Mar 2005, 03:55
If they really must starve this poor woman to death, one can only hope they have put her out with the same cocktail they gave me.

She may be in a purely reflexive state but all living creatures have reflexes that attempt to preserve their life for as long as possible.

Reflexes are feelings... :sad:

Nani
24th Mar 2005, 04:51
I watched an interview with a woman who was in a similar condition for 20 years,what made me cringe a bit when she told about the doctors/nurses were administering or attaching tubes without pain killers and she was screaming for them to stop without voicing her needs.
They thought she wouldn't feel any pain since she was in a vegetative state.
She has a book called Kate's Journey.

Capt Claret
24th Mar 2005, 04:53
Blacksheep,

Watching the SkyNews on tele in a hotel in Perth at 24 0430z, an "expert" of some persuasion that I've forgotten, suggested that Ms Shiavo would not be feeling anything such is the nature of her brain damage.

Sad way to die but it seems painless in this case. Forced feeding would be a more painful existance IMHO.

Mrs C and I have discussed this at length. Our opinion of the parents, formed soley from media information, is that they are being supremely selfish. Neither of us would like to see our children in this position ad infinitum.

Eee Tee
24th Mar 2005, 04:57
Before any more is said I encourage you all to be properly informed of the situation.

www.terrisfight.net

If it were I in a PVS (persistent vegetative state) yes, I would want out. But Terri Schiavo is not in a PVS.

Take the time to read the comments and look at the photos on the above website.

Terri is not on life-support so to speak. She is not connected to any apparatus 24 hours a day. The much talked about feeding tube is only connected at meal times. She breathes on her own. Communicates with loved ones. Her movements are often purposeful, not reflexive. She laughs and smiles. She is sad when her Mum leaves her room.

From the time of Terri’s accident- the ‘heart attack’ that the young Terri supposedly suffered (the police labeled the incident suspicious as her neck was damaged) Mr. Schiavo has refused virtually all medical treatment to Terri. He is in a de-facto relationship with another woman. He also has two children with this woman yet refuses to divorce Terri. Nor relinquish guardianship to her parents.

I sincerely believe his motives are selfish (perhaps financial). I hope the judge(s) involved grant her parents guardianship so Terri gets a fair go. Whether that be treatment to keep her alive, or otherwise.

Northern Chique
24th Mar 2005, 06:01
Unfortunately a living will, is not the be all and end to all arguments. The old saying goes "where there's a will, there's a family". The intent and location of that living will should be communicated to the family(ies) and the chosen executor with a secondry executor if the first one is unable to fulfill their duties. It negates any possibity that if I cannot state my latest wishes, at least someone will be around to carry them out for me, without legal interference beyond normal process.

My parents then my youngest brother have that duty at the moment and all parties know exactly what my wishes are and they will respect them. I am a registered organ donor but they still have the power to veto that wish. That is why the living will overrides their preferences.

Ive grieved both long and short term, Ive seen injustice and justice done to the living, the almost dead, and the deceased as have many other occupants of this planet. Injustice in this case is the trial by world media where the facts and superimposed morals so distort the facts, it becomes impossible to tell truth from borderline fiction.

I would want to die peacefully, not be a burden to my family prolonging grief and misguided hope. and benefit others when my life has ended. But I can understand how emotion fuzzies logic when family is involved. When you see a wife going about her daily duties and preparing her husbands breakfast, swearing he was talking to her 2 hours prior, trying to convince her that her soulmate has been dead for a quite a few hours is a very difficult task indeed. Typically the close family members want their loved one to be there, to be normal, to be just the way they had always known and loved them. To have that option taken away by death is final, to have the option hung in limbo always offers a glimmer of hope that one day perhaps that their loved one will be back to the way they have always known and loved them.

Head injury patients have to be about the hardest to deal with in many ways. The injury is invisible, but the long term effects can be far from invisible. One couples son went from a mild mannered, articulate young gentleman through a car prang and out the other side as a vicious, vindictive rude and violent young man due to head injuries recieved in the prang. This story is one of so many. The family does not know or like the "new" son, they want the "old" version back. While ever the body of their son walks around, they hold the hope that one day, the son they knew and raised will come back to reside in his body. They spent many hours trying to understand the guilt they felt for feeling nothing for this "new" personality, crucifying themselves because they were supposed to be loving their boy. It tore them apart emotionally.

If the wishes of Terri are not respected by those that love her, that is their concern, but to bring the opinion of self seeking, judgemental and occasionally downright misguided folks (one well meaning right to lifer tried to kidnap her) set dangerous precidents for our own life choices.

Chief Chook
24th Mar 2005, 08:54
The more I see and read of this particular case, the more I can't but help compare Michael Schiavo with Scott Peterson (and Tracey).

Capt.KAOS
24th Mar 2005, 09:11
I've been to nusery homes of retarded people in different states of concience because of a family member and I've seen various people in a simular state as Terri. Nobody ever thought of terminating their lifes just because they couldn't communicate.

I would have less problems with Terri's death if the process of dying was a matter of minutes instead of days, weeks. Letting her slowly die is incredible disrespectful and inhumane.

Grandpa, you and the others do not know what is going on in her mind, it's purely your perception. As long as that's the fact, it's very hard to judge whether you can end a life.

Now it really doens't matter anymore as further damage no doubt has been done to her health, like the other 2 times she was disconnected. It only gets worse.

ORAC
24th Mar 2005, 09:58
There has been much written over the past 12 years to blacken the husband's name. I would take it with a pinch of salt. The evidence presented in court does not support any of it.

The following may be of interest.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Washington Post - Transcript Terry Schiavo Case: Guardian at Law(My selection of some Q & As of the full transcript)

Dr. Jay Wolfson, Professor of Public Health and Medicine, University of South Florida and Legal Guardian of Terri Schiavo (2003) - Wednesday, March 23, 2005; 11:00 AM

Dr. Jay Wolfson, professor of Public Health and Medicine at the University of South Florida and professor of Health Law at Stetson University College of Law, was online Wednesday, March 23, at 11 a.m. ET to discuss his role as special guardian for Terri Schivao in 2003 and his report on her condition to Gov. Jeb Bush and the Florida courts.

_____________

Dr. Jay Wolfson: Hello -- my name is Jay Wolfson, I am professor of public health and medicine at the University of South Florida, College of Public Health in Tampa, and Professor of Law, Stetson University College of Law. I served as the court appointed, special guardian ad litem for Theresa Marie Schiavo, subsequent to the special law passed by the Florida Legislature in October of 2003. I had one month to review all of the medical and legal documents (more than 30,000 pages) and prepare a report to the Governor and the Courts addressing the question as to whether or not Terri should have additional swallowing tests. In doing this, I spent close to 30 days visiting with Terri each day -- for as long as 4 hours each day, including visits with her parents and her husband. My final report was presented to the Governor and to the 6th Judicial Florida Circuit Court.

_______________________

Raleigh, N.C.: It is stated that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state. Yet I regularly see pictures/video of her focusing on objects and people. Several nurses have also stated that she has the ability to swallow soft foods and has done so. What exactly is a "persistent vegetative state". It seems to me that she is just severely brain damaged. Also, isn't starvation an incredibly cruel way to make someone die? We wouldn't allow this to happen to a convicted murderer? How can this be justified?

Dr. Jay Wolfson: the pictures you see are several years old, including those depicting terri when michael made certain that she had make up and new clothes every day. she cannot swallow anything but her own saliva, and would aspirate (suck into her lungs) any food or water that might be given to her. there are many unsubstantiated facts. please try to read the report that i wrote and it may provide some additional, factual guidance.
______________________

You served as the legal appointed guardian of Terri Schiavo for 30 days in 2003 and issued your report in December of 2004. How did that come about? What did you observe? What did your report say?

Dr. Jay Wolfson: I was appointed by the judiciary, according to the requirement of the law for a special guardian to investigate Terri's swallowing capacity. This opened the door to issues relating to her neurological capacity. I was required to review and report on the previous 14 years of legal and medical evidence and activities. After spending hours with Terri, getting to know her parents and siblings and her husband, and reviewing all of the evidence, my conclusion was that the competent medical evidence provided in the the case, following the Florida rules of civil procedure and evidence, and according to the Guardianship law in Florida, which was carefully crafted over fifteen years of bipartisan political and religious efforts --- indicated by clear and convincing evidence that she was in a persistent vegetative state, according to the most credible science and medicine.

I also concluded that based on the same Florida laws and rules, the trier of fact appropriately determined that Terri had expressed, while she was competent, the intention never to be kept artificially alive under such circumstances. The evidence supporting this included competent legal evidence demonstrating that she personally expressed those intentions at the funerals of two family members who had been on life support -- so it was contextual.......
_______________________

Cleveland, Ohio: The parents of Terri Schiavo expressed hope that Terri can still recover from her condition. Is there any possibility of this?

Dr. Jay Wolfson: The competent medical evidence submitted in the case, interpreted according to the rules of civil procedure and evidence in florida indicated by the clear and convincing standard that she is in a persistent vegitative state with no reasonable medical likelihood of recovery. the extensive literature supports this finding.
______________________

Canton, Ohio: Did you try to give Terri thickened liquids? Did you interview any of the doctors or nurses who said they gave Terri jello or other foods? They said she ate it and enjoyed it.

Dr. Jay Wolfson: there is no credible evidence to support any of those contentions.
_______________________

Tampa, Fla.: Dr. Wolfson, Can you give any insight into the personalities of the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo? Particularly, why haven't they reached some sort of compromise after all these years?
Thanks.

Dr. Jay Wolfson: The Schindlers are wonderful people. they are the kind of people i grew up with. i played in their home, with their children, ate at their dinner tables. they are warm, caring, loving good people. Michael is not warm and fuzzy, but i believe that he is honestly seeking to put in place the intentions of the woman he loved. and as her husband, he was more intimate with her than anybody on earth.
_______________________

Nitro, W.Va.: Dr. Wolfson; Thank you for taking questions on this important subject. Did Mrs. Schiavo suffer from an eating disorder resulting in the hypokalemia that put her into cardiac arrest? In my admittedly limited professional experience, patients with eating disorders tend to live in highly enmeshed and problematic families.

Dr. Jay Wolfson: the evidence in the file indicates that Ms. Schiavo may have suffered from an eating disorder. She would drink between 15-20 glasses of iced tea each day and may have been purging additionally. before she was 18, she weighed 250 pounds, and then, with her loving mother, decided to lose weight. she did - and went down to about 150, at which time she met michael. she continued to lose weigh aggressively, and got down to 110 before she had her accident. at the hospital, her electrolyte imbalance was profound, causing the cardiac arrest. that imbalance could have been caused by the extreme amount of fluid intake. now, she weighs about 150.
_______________________

Dulles, Va.: A lot of people condemn Michael Schiavo for "changing his mind" after he received a settlement of 300K and Terry received 700K. I've read that he used the $$ for the care of Terry. Is this true? Also, who is currently paying for her care? Are all the people (politicians and civilians) who are vocal supporters of keeping her alive also helping with the enormous financial cost? Or are some potentially using Terry Schiavo to foster their own agenda?

Dr. Jay Wolfson: the politicians are doing what they do. michael cared aggressively and positively for terri for many years. perhaps after the judgement, he came to accept what the physicians had been telling the family for years -- that she was not going to recover. it may be coincidental, but perhaps the end of the court case provided a natural basis for closure --- and michael reluctantly decided to move on with his life -- and allow terri to move into the next stage of hers. this is based on the documents i read and the extensive discussions i had with michael and the Schindlers.
_______________________

Baltimore, Md.: I am a family physician, and I really appreciate your clear-headed discussion of this issue here and in your recent interview on NPR. It is a welcome break from the nonsense, confusion, and at times, frank disinformation that has characterized much of the debate about this poor woman and her family. Can you please discuss your impressions on her responsiveness. You spent quite a bit of time with her. Does she respond as the family claims she does?

Dr. Jay Wolfson: in the time i spent with her i was not able to observe or experience a consistent response. i talked to her, cajoled her, played music -- but there was random reflective actions -- no responses. though i sure wished that i could have found otherwise.
______________________

Beltsville, Md.: I went to the Web site that Terri's parent's have on her situation. They say that much of what's said about her condition is false. She can eat on her own, she could get better with therapy. Why is there no common ground when it comes to the medical opinion of Terri's hope for recovery or whether she would benefit from having her feeding tube reinserted?

Dr. Jay Wolfson: if she were given food, she would likely aspirate and either choke or develop an infection that would kill her. she does not eat or drink and she cannot.

reynoldsno1
24th Mar 2005, 10:22
would have less problems with Terri's death if the process of dying was a matter of minutes instead of days, weeks. Letting her slowly die is incredible disrespectful and inhumane.
WTF? She's been dying slowly for the last 15 years, or would have done if.....
How inhumane is that? By all accounts she wouldn't know anyway.
Her husband has a life on hold. Her parents have nothing left in their lives, it would seem, but a child who doesn't know them (recognition, must, surely, be VERY subjective). They really need to know that.
So, on balance, Terri, life is actually against you, but you couldn't give a sh*t anyway....(nor does my guinea pig)
welcome to the big DARKNESS (film stopped at this point....)

Capt.KAOS
24th Mar 2005, 10:52
WTF? She's been dying slowly for the last 15 years, or would have done if..... No, she's clearly not. If...what? Just pull the plug?

Her husband has a life on hold. Her parents have nothing left in their lives, No, he's not on hold, he's living with another woman with children. He might not divorced Terri for monetary reasons. He could have give her back to her parents long time ago. They wouldn't object.

As for losing the money on the caretaking of Terri, I'm sure Micheal Schiavo was convinced Terri would never live that long and his reactions ("When is that bitch gonna die?") indicate that.

"To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy."

SpinSpinSugar
24th Mar 2005, 15:57
BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4380061.stm)


Top US court rejects Schiavo plea

The US Supreme Court has refused to intervene in the case of brain-damaged woman Terri Schiavo.

Mrs Schiavo's parents had asked the top US court to order her feeding tube reinserted after it was removed by court order last week.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly refused to rule on the case of Mrs Schiavo, 41, who has been reliant on artificial feeding for 15 years.

Mrs Schiavo's husband wanted her tube removed, saying it was her own wish.


SSS

Chief Chook
24th Mar 2005, 20:17
Putting aside all legal arguments, opinions about Michael Schiavo, and Bob Schindler, etc, is the WAY in which this living organism being killed humane?

It sets a precedent in the USA, so what will be the next step?
And what precedent does it also set for persons who are caught doing the same thing to their own handicapped children/spouses/parents/siblings.

I suspect the lawyers and US courts are going to have a "field day" with this one in the future.

Onan the Clumsy
24th Mar 2005, 20:40
It doesn't set any precedent, any more than the state executing someone does :rolleyes:

henry crun
24th Mar 2005, 21:09
Capt.KAOS: I have some questions you may be able to answer.
You appear to place great emphasis on the affidavit of nurse Iyer but are you certain she does not have another agenda ?

Has anyone else made similar accusations, and if not does it not strike you as strange that she alone has obverved the things she claims ?

Does she have strong pro life religious or other convictions which could sway her judgement or her attitude towards Mr Schiavo ?

Has she given this evidence in court to support the plea of the mother, and if not why not ?
If Mr.Schiavo had sworn a counter affidavit and denied everything that Iyer said, who would you believe then ?

There is always a chance that one or even two courts can arrive at the wrong answer, but do you have a reason why so many different courts and different judges have arrived at the same conclusions ?

Chief Chook
24th Mar 2005, 22:41
Thank you Onan :rolleyes:
You have confirmed an opinion which I believe many people share with me - that Terri Shaivo is NOT being allowed to die "naturally", but rather is being put to death by court decree.

It therefore DOES set a precedent, inasmuch as the courts of the USA have ordered that an innocent human being receive the death sentence - in the cruelest and most inhumane way imaginable - simply because she is of a lesser mental capacity, and unable to express her own wishes AT THIS TIME in her life.

Try a little deeper thinking, Onan - if that's possible :uhoh: or YOU may be NEXT!
Selective culling of the species.

tony draper
24th Mar 2005, 22:58
I understand withholding feeding and fluids is the common method employed in the UK in not to be resusitated cases, always struck me that a massive dose of morphine would be kinder.
I have seen myself how hard the organism itself fights to survive even after the mind has gone, nature can be cruel in this repect.

Grandpa
24th Mar 2005, 22:59
....would you have replaced "being received the death sentence"

by

"being received the life sentence"

in your second paragraph?

Or do you feel there is no "cruel way and most inhuman way imaginable" in ordering a human being to be kept on vegetative life for years, ignoring his/her sufferings?

Capt.KAOS
24th Mar 2005, 23:12
Mr.Crun, as far as I know neither Micheal Schiavo nor the Palm Gardens nursery home have denied her affidavit or Ms.Iyer being sued for lies.
Has anyone else made similar accusations, and if not does it not strike you as strange that she alone has obverved the things she claims ? Yes, Ms. Heidi Law (http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/hlawaffidavit.htm) and Ms.Trudy Capone (www.theempirejournal.com/AFFIDAVIT_Capone.doc) gives some interesting background info on Micheal Schiavo.
If Mr.Schiavo had sworn a counter affidavit and denied everything that Iyer said, who would you believe then ? Irrelevant question, there's none.

Question for medical experts, can a brain dead female person in a persistent vegitative state have periods?

PS
As Terri's guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri's records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compression fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.

ORAC
25th Mar 2005, 08:15
This case has been heard and considered in court on over 23 occasions, every single one of them has decided in favour of the husband. These allegations have been made several times in order to get him removed as guardian. They have been investigated and rejected on every occasion, the latest being yesterday.

One would have thought that if these allegations had any foundation whatsoever he would have been removed as guardian or charged. Since he has not, one must either believe he is innocent or that both the Florida and Federal judicial systems are involved in a conspiracy of some kind.
-----------------------------------------------------------

CNN - Friday March 25th:
Schiavo has been without food or water since Greer ordered her feeding tube removed March 18 -- last Friday.

On Thursday, [Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge] Greer denied a petition of the state Department of Children and Families and Gov. Jeb Bush to take Schiavo into state custody. He also denied a petition from the DCF to investigate allegations that Terri Schiavo's husband, Michael, abused her. Such allegations have been considered and dismissed several times in the past, most recently last week in the Florida Supreme Court.

Kalium Chloride
25th Mar 2005, 09:56
Can't help thinking that this has parallels with the recent case in the UK where the parents of a severely brain-damaged baby were trying to force doctors to keep their child alive.

Even though, to me, it smacks of selfishness I can understand that parents will do an awful lot to protect the life of their offspring - even when, perhaps, it clearly goes against the best interests of their child.

Onewordanswer
25th Mar 2005, 10:54
She should die and if I was family I'd help, can't say I think this method is particularly humane.............Anyone call for the Dr.?:}

Onan the Clumsy
25th Mar 2005, 13:15
Chief Chook tsk tsk, that's not what I said at all and you know it. How do you arrive at that conclusion anyway?

"Allowed to die naturally" or kept alive unnaturally?

And when you say "the cruelest and most inhumane way imaginable ", your language is extremely emotive, or perhaps you are very unimaginitive. History is replete with much crueller examples.

"A little deeper thining" :ugh: now that's not nice.

TheStormyPetrel
30th Mar 2005, 14:35
A US federal appeals court has agreed to hear a petition by the parents of brain-damaged woman Terri Schiavo to have her feeding tube reinserted.
No date has been set. The court had previously rejected similar appeals.

The ruling by the Court of Appeals in Atlanta came as Mrs Schiavo enters her 13th day without food or water.

Terri Schiavo's case has polarised US public opinion, pitting her parents against her husband and legal guardian, Michael, who wants to allow her to die.

Michael Schiavo insists his wife did not want to be kept alive artificially.

But the parents, Mary and Bob Schindler, disagree and in an emotional address on Tuesday, they appealed to him to save Terri's life.

"Michael and Jody, you have your own children," Mary Schindler said, referring to Mr Schiavo and his new partner.

"Please give my child back to me," she said.

New Trial?

The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals said in its ruling that the Schindlers would be allowed to file an emergency motion - even though they were due to have done this on 26 March.

In their new petition, they also ask the Court to reinstert the tube, pending the outcome of the hearing.

They say the federal judge in Tampa, Florida, who ruled against them last week should have gone beyond procedural matters.

They are understood to be pressing for a new trial - not merely contesting whether earlier Florida state rulings complied with Florida law.

A spokeswoman for the Atlanta-based court told the BBC News website no date has been set to hear the current motion.

Terri Schiavo, who has been fed by artificial means since she suffered severe brain damage when her heart stopped briefly in 1990, had her feeding tube removed by court order on 18 March.

Her parents say the Atlanta court should hear facts about the case - they argue that Mrs Schiavo remains responsive.

Court-appointed doctors have said Mrs Schiavo will not recover.
found at this site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4392633.stm)

airship
30th Mar 2005, 14:45
Today is the 30th March. Which means that it's been 12 days since Terri's feeding tube was removed. And they're (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4392633.stm) still arguing the case...

Meanwhile, we're expected to believe that Terri doesn't feel a thing. Whilst being starved to death. Or so the medical experts spout. Was it really that long ago that medical experts were also using charms to cure people and selling tonics off the backs of wagons? So we can all take it for granted that Terri feels nothing. Or at least no more than a fish out of water...? We're still using penicillin aren't we? :}

Pitiful monsters we are, who don't see anything wrong with lacing whole countries with defoliants which 30 years later still cause deformities in newborns and napalm because it smells good in the morning. :\

Fer Christ's sake Drapes, pass me yer 12 bore, and let me put an end to this charade. And someone do the same fer Terri's sake too... :sad:

ORAC
30th Mar 2005, 15:35
Doctors clarify Schiavo case

Everyone from congressmen to talk-show hosts to ministers and Schiavo's own parents have suggested the 41-year-old Florida woman's death after the removal of a feeding tube will be painful. They have compared the situation to starving a dog....

But medical experts in Springfield say the emotional debate about Schiavo makes some of the issues in such a decision appear black or white when they're not. The argument also has inaccurately portrayed the process that occurs after the withdrawal of feeding tubes and other artificial forms of life support, they say.

"Eventually, in the absence of food and hydration, you drift into a coma and die in your sleep," said Dr. Andrew Varney, an internist and medical director of the clinical ethics center at Memorial Health System, the parent company of Memorial Medical Center. "It's a very peaceful passing," Varney said. "This notion that it's a horrible, painful death - an inhumane act not to feed somebody - is just against the experience of the last 50 years and all the scientific data that we have on the subject."....Varney, director of Southern Illinois University School of Medicine's internal-medicine residency program, explained what happens after a feeding tube is removed:

A patient may feel hunger pangs for up to 72 hours, but after that the sensation is blocked by natural pain-killing chemicals produced by the body. Many chronically ill people, such as those with cancer and brain damage, such as Terri Schiavo, can't feel hunger as healthy people do, so they may never feel hunger pangs. Lack of water leads to circulation problems that cause a buildup of carbon dioxide. The carbon dioxide causes the patient to drift into a sleep and eventually leads to kidney failure and an elevation of potassium levels. The excess potassium stops the heart. Death normally takes place two to three weeks after a feeding tube is removed....

Dehydration can lead to dry mouth and chapped lips. But workers in hospice programs and other places that provide good end-of-life care can apply moisturizing preparations to the mouth and lips to make sure patients are comfortable. Pain medications also are available to increase comfort, as well as medicines to prevent fluid buildup in the lungs and breathing problems. "Suffering does not have to occur at the end of life," said Billington, a registered nurse. "It saddens me that it is being said that at the end of life, one will suffer unless extraordinary measures are going on. Actually, the opposite is true."....

Grainger
30th Mar 2005, 16:25
Fair enough Orac, although I'm mystified at how they know all this. How can anyone know how it feels ?

The only person who really knows what it feels like isn't really in any position to comment . . .

Ozzy
30th Mar 2005, 16:25
Apparently Terri has her own blog (http://durrrrr.********.com/)


Ozzy

warning - it's in poor taste

Capt.KAOS
30th Mar 2005, 20:21
Such a wonderful death ORAC. Almost an act of humanity. Why don't they starve those people in death row to death? People with Alzheimer? Or terminal ill people? And all those children starving to death in Africa? According these doctors they have a "very peaceful passing". Think about that when you see these pictures from Ethiopia :mad:

How can doctors judge about a death of a loved one? Peaceful, my @ss.

I have a relative who suffered a bowel perforation (wrongly diagnosed by an internist btw). He told me he heard doctors saying let this one die, he's finished. One internist (an old fashioned one who cares about people, not about the € 500,000/year they make) refused to give up, operated him and the man survived. He's disabled now, but he's alive. :rolleyes:

Onan the Clumsy
30th Mar 2005, 20:36
Ironically, the argument you are making is that starving is not an unpleasent death, but in fact an unpleasent (part of a) life. The death part of it, well who knows?

slim_slag
30th Mar 2005, 21:40
Poor girl, every time I see her I am reminded of some "living dead" movie, or the Michael Jackson Thriller video. Pithed frogs are treated better, time to send her on her way, disgraceful it's non PC to do it actively

ORAC
30th Mar 2005, 21:46
No death is pleasant, but not all are painful.

Recall all the scenes your have seen of the starving children - pathetic, blank, apathetic, satring eyed - but not in pain. one of the common forms of deprival where nature has found a way to shut of the worst aspects. Not, of course, to relieve pain, but to shunt it to one side to concentrate every effort, in a natural envirnoment, on a last final effort for survival without distraction.

TheStormyPetrel
30th Mar 2005, 23:19
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. Mar 30, 2005 — A federal appeals court raised a flicker of hope for the parents of Terri Schiavo, but snuffed it out Wednesday by firmly and resoundingly declining to intervene in the grueling legal battle.

"Any further action by our court or the district court would be improper," the Atlanta-based 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals wrote. "While the members of her family and the members of Congress have acted in a way that is both fervent and sincere, the time has come for dispassionate discharge of duty."

And in a scathing attack on politicians who got involved in the case, the court added that the White House and lawmakers "have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people our Constitution."

The ruling came as Schiavo, 41, began her 13th day without food and water. The brain-damaged woman was expected to survive one to two weeks after her feeding tube was removed by court order March 18. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, insists he is carrying out her wishes by having the tube pulled.

Schiavo's parents said their daughter still looked "surprisingly good" and pleaded with supporters to keep up efforts to reconnect her feeding tube before it is too late.

"Under the circumstances, she looks darn good, surprisingly good," Bob Schindler said after visiting his daughter Wednesday afternoon. "I'm asking that nobody throw in the towel as long as she's fighting, to keep fighting with her," he said.

The Schindlers' spokesman, Randall Terry, said their attorneys were preparing an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

George Felos, the attorney for Schiavo's husband, declined to comment.

The court raised the Schindlers' hopes late Tuesday when it agreed to consider their emergency bid for a new hearing in the case. But 15 hours later, the court ruled against granting a hearing the fourth time since last week that it ruled against the Schindlers.

The parents asked that the feeding tube be reinserted immediately "in light of the magnitude of what is at stake and the urgency of the action required."
From this website (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=627250)

Gouabafla
31st Mar 2005, 15:13
Just read on the BBC website that the poor lass has died. May she rest in peace and I hope that this will bring an end to the suffering that her family are going through.

PilotsPal
31st Mar 2005, 15:18
I suspect that a new round of trouble is about to begin: that of where her final resting place will be.

Gouabafla
31st Mar 2005, 15:19
Hadn't thought of that, but I fear you are right.

flapsforty
31st Mar 2005, 17:31
Discussed this case with a good friend who is a GP in Holland. He does 2 to 3 active euthanasias a year and helps a number of old people in a process called "versterven" in Dutch. Versterven means to die from the effects of taking neither food nor drink, which is happening to Mrs Schiavo now.
His experience is exactly as posted by ORAC. For the first 3 days there are hunger and thirst pangs which can be relieved by a doctor and good nurses. Then the kidneys fail and start a cascade of failing organs.
It sounds cruel, but according to him (and he has seen a fair number of people die in 20 years of practice) it is a sweet and peaceful way of dying.

Like PP I have a living will and have drawn up extended powers of attorney. My husband and I have also discussed with the children what all 4 of us want to happen to us in various scenarios and if we want to be organ donors.
We know eachothers different wishes in these matters, and have them written down.

Lon More
31st Mar 2005, 18:16
Just on BBC news: she died at 0905 local time.
The arguments are carrying on beween pro and anti.
Flaps, I agree entirely, it's the only way to go

BobZyurUnkl
31st Mar 2005, 18:59
I just heard on the news Mr. Schiavo wants Teri buried in his Family plot (don't know where) and the Parents want her buried in FLA.
More legalities ahead?
Bob

tony draper
31st Mar 2005, 21:06
Civil wars tend to be more brutal than wars between nations, the media is involved, they will make sure it is kept stoked.

Irish Steve
31st Mar 2005, 21:06
More legalities ahead?

I've been saddened by the whole of this case, and by it's implications over a much wider sphere than just the life of one individual

I'm no legal expert, far from it, and this is something I'd rather not have to experience, but I seem to recall that in the UK at least, there is a much misunderstood part of the wedding service that goes "Who GIVES this woman.........................."

My understanding of the word GIVES in this context is that the new husband is fully, freely and willingly accepting responsibility for the future of the woman he is marrying, and in the same context and with the same level of emphasis, the person GIVING, which under normal circumstances is the parent, is doing exactly that, GIVING the person over to the new partner, and effectively relinquishing ALL responsibility for that person after that time.

NO, they are not losing interest, or suddenly removing themsleves from the life of the daughter, but they ARE marking very publicly the clear and specifically expressed desire of the daughter to build a new relationship with a different person, and that new person is accepting responsibility in every way for the daughter.

My daughter married last year. I am more than delighted that I have as close a relationship with her now as I had before her marriage, but if anything should happen to her, it is not my call as to how that should be dealt with, and my only recourse if I am not happy about it will be to talk to her husband, and hope that he will see the sense or reason of my argument if there is one. I have been saddened to see thsi wrangle as yet another example of the way that the strength and specific commitment of wedding vows have been challenged by parents.

Yes, they all mean well, and they clearly had very opposed views as to the exact condition of the daughter, and the prognosis of her case. I find it hard to accept that there can have been such a wide variance about the true nature of Teri's condition.


Now there could still be arguments. I just hope that all concerned will pause for thought, and then think even more carefully about how they proceed.

Capt.KAOS
31st Mar 2005, 22:01
Nauw zichtbaar wiegen op een lichte zucht

De witte bloesems in de scheemring - ziet

Hoe langs mijn venster nog, met ras gerucht,

Een enkele, al te late vogel vliedt.



En ver, daar ginds, die zacht-gekleurde lucht

Als perlemoer, waar ied're tint vervliet

In teerheid.., Rust - o, wonder-vreemd genucht!

Want alles is bij dag zó innig niet.



Alle geluid, dat nog van verre sprak,

Verstierf...


Rest in Peace Terri

Chief Chook
1st Apr 2005, 03:42
If I were Michael Schiavo`s concubine, or one of his (2) children to her, I`d be pretty worried about my future, and what he`d do to ME, if I had a serious accident.

And, BobZyurUnkl, he wants Terri cremated - something Roman catholics do NOT have done, whereas her parents want her buried in Florida.

There seems to be more to Michael Schiavo than just a "loving husband", wanting to remove life support from his legal wife.
WHY did he deny the parents access to Terri`s medical records after her collapse?

BlueDiamond
1st Apr 2005, 03:52
he wants Terri cremated - something Roman catholics do NOT have done,
Where did you get that idea, Chookie?? :confused:

Onan the Clumsy
1st Apr 2005, 04:54
Chief Chook you should be ashamed of yourself making insinuations like that. Remarks like that have no foundation and serve no constructive purpose for anyone. :*

ORAC
1st Apr 2005, 05:21
This was already argued about in court and resolved.

"As approved in [Judge] Greer's courtroom March 7, Michael Schiavo will have his wife's body cremated and interred in a family plot in Pennsylvania, where they were born and were married in November 1984.

Greer denied the request by Schiavo's parents to have her buried in Florida without being cremated. They are Roman Catholic and argued that cremation is inconsistent with their religion. The Vatican lifted its ban on cremation in 1963."

Chief Chook
1st Apr 2005, 11:25
Sorry Onan, I`m unsure of what "insinuations" you`re accusing me.
Michael Schiavo, has, in my opinion, pursued the termination of another human being`s life in the cruelest way it could be inflicted in a so-called civilised country.
Where there is life, there is hope.
Using the same basis of argument applied to Terri Schiavo, abortions for foetus under 3 or 4 months of age should be quite acceptable to those who supported the killing of terri Schiavo.

CR2
1st Apr 2005, 11:35
Have a read of the JB ROE stickied at the top.

F4Fan
1st Apr 2005, 11:52
Hi

My little take on this really relates to the people saying that God wants her to live....

In old days before the super technology we have Terri would have died.

The equipment was keeping Terri alive for the most of the time.

These same people then protest if we use technology to cure people (e.g Stem Cell Research)

God in all his (her ) wisdom allowed us as humans to progress to the level where we have the knowledge and ability to save and improve lives ...why contradict themselves.

But there comes a point where technology is the only thing keeping the person alive and that person is not the person the family know and a decision needs to be made and the only people that can make it are the family.

George Bush stated in his conference last night that his job is to protect Americans, yet he is happy to allow hundreds die in Iraq and on the USA streets...I dont think its fair for him to pick on one case . Is it coincedence that its in his relations back yard ?.

I agree that if there should have been a better way to allow Terri to go, Slowly like this was terrible and very sad.

All in all this is a very sad case that should not have involved politics or placard bashers....the family and Terri are the only ones who matter not the outsiders looking in...its very easy to criticise but at the end of the day it was terrible for Terri and her family

May she Rest in Peace

High Wing Drifter
1st Apr 2005, 11:58
Am I wrong, or doesn't Mr Schiavo have a family with another woman these days? For all we know, he may be very anxious to have the chance to marry the mother of his children.
I am sure he has a confusing and complex muddle of reasons for wanting an end to the situation. Some of which outside observers may seem cold or callous, others must be driving him to near insanity; a turmoil none of us have the neither the ability nor the right to second guess. It is clear that Terry's condition is about as bad as it is possible to be and that nothing is going to change that. At somepoint, when it is obvious everything has been tried and nothing more can be done, attention must turn again to the living and those who have lives to lead and other people to worry about.

Onan the Clumsy
1st Apr 2005, 12:56
Sorry Onan, I`m unsure of what "insinuations" you`re accusing me.


March 24thThe more I see and read of this particular case, the more I can't but help compare Michael Schiavo with Scott Peterson (and Tracey). Scott Peterson is a convicted murderer. Totally different and a totally inappropriate comparison.



April 1stIf I were Michael Schiavo`s concubine, or one of his (2) children to her, I`d be pretty worried about my future, and what he`d do to ME, if I had a serious accident. The discussion has been about him following the wishes of his wife, not what 'he did' to her. There is little difference between suggesting that he would 'do something' to his new family and suggesting that he 'did something' to his wife.



April 1stThere seems to be more to Michael Schiavo than just a "loving husband", wanting to remove life support from his legal wife.To you perhaps, to others perhaps not. In any event, it's an inappropriate comment.



I for one know very little about this case. You may or may not know more. In any event, it does little good for us both to continue this discussion.

Wino
1st Apr 2005, 16:13
I have thought about this quite a bit, and had it happened to me (wife in a coma, etc) anytime before two years ago when we finally got everything written down I would have been in EXACTLY the same boat as the husband.

Similar case, wife makes wishes explicitly known. Inlaws are severe bible bangers ("saved" later in life) who were mortified at their first meeting with me. Didn't attend the wedding because wife didn't obtain an annulment from first husband and viewed our cohabitation before the marriage as a sin etc....

So I would have been faced with carrying out my wife's wishes (Pull the plug) vs an overwhelming barrage of abuse from the her parents. I am sure that it would have degenated EXACTLY like it did in this case.

We have it in writing now. It was actually because we were concerned for our child should we get killed, and wanted to make our wishes known on that front that we set out our wills. While doing that our Power of Attorneys and wishes for end of life care written out (hadn't even thought about it till the lawyer suggested it).

But you know what? Without a child there would have been zero reasons for us to bother. (Surving spouse gets everything in the event of the death of one) So for the first 5 years of our marriage a coma for one of us would have provoked endless legal battles for the survivor...

Cheers
Wino

Onan the Clumsy
1st Apr 2005, 16:43
who were mortified at their first meeting with me :p


:ok:

Capt.KAOS
1st Apr 2005, 20:12
OK, now Terri's dead, can someone please stop feeding Kirsty Ally?

Grandpa
1st Apr 2005, 21:06
.....I learn Wino is a sinner!!!

What can we do for him, save his soul and so on.........?

tony draper
1st Apr 2005, 22:01
Nowt wrong wi Kirsty Ally,big fine lassy she is.
:E

gatfield
2nd Apr 2005, 07:19
Flaps comments after her discussion with GP are interesting, maybe this way of dying is not as bad as people think. But if euthanisia were allowed, she definitely could have died a more peaceful way.

I certainly wouldn't want to be lying there for 15 years with a a mushy brain , being a burden on my family and friends. What sort of relationships can you have, where is the quality of life?


<comment removed>

Gatfield, please take some time to read the JB Rules of Engagement at the top of the forum, paying particular attention to point 4. ;)
f40
me is sorry
gee i'm upsetting lot sof people tonight

Onewordanswer
2nd Apr 2005, 10:55
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on that sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I don't think Dylan meant Terri..........:bored:

Lon More
16th Jun 2005, 15:43
The autopsy report on Terry Schiavo has just been released. Nothing was found that contradicts the diagnosis that she was in a permanent vegetative state.
The eye movements used as evidence by the parents that she would improve with therapy were dismissed as reflex movements and the autopsy indicated that she was blind.
The brain tissue weighed about the half of a normal healthy brain and the damage was irreversible.

Onan the Clumsy
16th Jun 2005, 15:44
Sounds like some of the people I've worked with :ugh: