Cabin Baggage

[Eric T Cartman]

Having just returned from hols in the USA, I was rather uneasy about the size & amount of cabin baggage allowed on our flights from EWR to MCO & return. Although notices & indications of what was allowed were on display at check-ins, these were being widely ignored. Because the aircraft were boarded from the rear, by the time we arrived at our seats up front it was hard to find space for our stuff due to the huge wheeled suitcases that were jammed in. I guess folk might say if they fit the locker, then they're ok but what worries me more is what all this does to weight & trim figures. I know standard weights are used for pax & hold baggage is weighed but is it really safe to allow such a wide tolerance ? :confused:

[Final 3 Greens]

Eric

You obviously suffered a little culture shock from the different practices in the USA!

What you describe is pretty normal - on the RJs handlers meet the pax with a luggage trolley by the stairs and load the bigger bags into the hold and the [ax collect them as they get off.

I would console yourself with the fact that the safety record across there is up with the rest of the world.

[Globaliser]

As sometimes said on another pax forum: Welcome to the third world!

[PAXboy]

I understand that the real expansion in cabin bagage (at first I wrote the single word 'cabbage' and wondered what I was talking about. Hhmm, must have been a bigger brandy than I realised... := ) was when the Hub-and-Spoke operations started.

So many bags did not arrive at the destination, due to not making the connection, that pax started to haul them on board. The carriers have tried on a few occasions to prevent them but, natch, the pax then state [loudly] that they were allowed to travel with this bag the other day blah-blah and that they will never use this carrier again blah-blah.

As a result, the carriers asked the manufacturers to make the overhead lockers more secure. The weight is all allowed for as they know how much junk people bring on. In Europe, my perception is that we are moving this way too.

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[amanoffewwords]

Yet, when the British Midland crashed at Kegworth a lot of the death/injuries were attributed to the carry-on luggage in the cabin.

They never learn.

[Globaliser]

amanoffewwords: Yet, when the British Midland crashed at Kegworth a lot of the death/injuries were attributed to the carry-on luggage in the cabin.

They never learn.I have the same argument in that other forum from time to time. The last time it happened, I flushed out the pro-kitchen sink brigade, who actually said in terms that they would rather take the risk of being beheaded by flying cabin baggage in an accident than have to wait at baggage claim.

Me, I try to stay off N- registered carriers if I can, although the safety aspect of this is only one small reason out of many.

[HKPAX]

Fair point. On a trip with Cathay Pathetic a group of three businessmen filled an overhead locker (good sized ones on the 777) with heavy carry on bags, adding theirs to my own light bag. After opening up the locker to get something out during the flight it was a real shock to find I could barely stop the whole flaming thing from crashing down - it must have been 30 kg of load, and the rest, and I'm a big strong boy.

What happens if there is a heavy landing: will the locks hold? And who is liable if someone gets knocked out or worse when bags "escape" through people being caught out like me?

In Australia they used to random weigh-check carry-ons. I thought this was going too far, but now I'm not so sure.....

[skydriller]

So many bags did not arrive at the destination, due to not making the connection, that pax started to haul them on board.

Yep, and thats why I am one of those pax you are talking about that will travel with just hand luggage where possible.....

In Europe, my perception is that we are moving this way too.

Well that depends on the carrier.....

For example LH and AF now have a wee trolly so you can drop off your wheely W/E case at the steps and pick it up the other end when taking their smaller ERJ/Canadair jets within Europe.
BA in their wisdom however have a different rule for hand luggage on different flights depending on destination. ie if you are on a US bound flight no probs with a wheelie (maybe because they will lose the trade to the US carriers with more relaxed limits)....However god help you if you are wanting to take anything larger than a toilet bag on a European flight.....even if you are connecting to a US flight or have just come off of a US flight.....

Does this affect my choice of Airline? Well sort of.....I used to be extreamly pro-BA, as I had previously had nothing but good service from them, even when things went wrong, in fact especially when things were not going to plan - however, I dont know what it is thats changed in the last couple of years, except that there seem to be more little 'minor incidents' or 'irritations' over seemingly nothing than there were before, as if the attitude to pax has changed....so it all adds up.

Regards SD..

[Pax Vobiscum]

I'm a frequent traveller on BA, usually carrying a large suit-bag (that will just fit sideways into the overhead) and a large laptop backpack (that will just fit under the seat). I've never had any problem on mainline BA services (320s, 737s or 757s), though I realise I'm probably pushing my luck! I understand that there may have to be tighter limits on smaller, regional aircraft.

As far as travel within the US is concerned, I've always assumed from my experiences that the definition of carry on baggage is: "any object that will fit through the passenger door and is not too heavy for three men to lift" :D

[Irish Steve]

As far as travel within the US is concerned, I've always assumed from my experiences that the definition of carry on baggage is: "any object that will fit through the passenger door and is not too heavy for three men to lift"

And that's just the average passenger :E :E

What never ceased to amaze me on some of the flights I used to handle was how the passenger actually got the bags to the airport.

I sometimes wonder if it would change things if the area in front of each check in desk was made totally unsuitable for wheeled cases, and a rule be then introduced that with the exception of elderly or infirm, all passengers must CARRY their bag across the area in front of the checkout and place it on the weigh scale without it touching the floor. I fthe passenger can't carry the :mad: thing, why should someone else be expected to.

This would especially apply to some relatively young single female passengers, as experience (sometimes painful) has taught me that the weight they expect to be allowed to ship is on occasions dangerous. One example comes to mind, a single female who was expecting to be allowed to load 4 large cases weighing over 140Kgs between them for a Tranatlantic flight.

Joking apart, the Low cost carriers are not helping in this respect, FR have increased the weight allowed in the cabin, while reducing the hold weight allowance, mainly because they don't want the hassle of bags on turnround. There's talk of introducing a zero weight allowance, if you want to ship bags, then they'll expect to be paid more for that "service".

It's no joke trying to put a monster 35 Kilo bag into the rear hold of a F70, whoever designed that aircraft never had to load one for real.

Cabin bags are indeed becoming a problem, but at the moment, I don't see any real plan or standard that can be operated, and for sure, if a specific carrier thinks they are losing out to another because of their rules, you can be sure that before too long, the rules will change.

[PAXboy]

but at the moment, I don't see any real plan or standard that can be operated, Indeed. No carrier is going to be too tough on this. PAX have more options these days and will walk.

Those that are riding in C/J/F don't have a problem and the ones down the back will push everything to the limit. It has been discussed in these hallowed portals before that, if you want to get hurt during a flight, then sit in the aisle seat. As HKPAX relates.

I have always preferred the window and, if I have checked baggage, make sure that I am last off and so all the others have dragged cases out of the lockers and hit each other with them, rather than me. ;)

[Final 3 Greens]

I have always preferred the window Hear, hear.

Not only does it reduce the risk of being skulled, but what is the point of racing into the aisle like a lemming, only for it to take 3-4 minutes for the door to be opened and the queue to start moving.

I tend to sit and read my book until people start moving and I'm still at the carousel pretty much at the same time as the greyhounds!

[Eric T Cartman]

Thanks for all the replies folks ! At Stansted there are a few metal frames mounted on pillars near the Ryanair check-in desks & if your bag doesn't fit, it goes in the hold - at least that's what happened to one of my lads with his sports kit bag ! The irony is that he could have got two of them inside one of the cases I saw stashed overhead in the US, jammed in on some poor woman's laptop case !! As for baggage handlers, you certainly have my sympathy - with the exception of the one who smashed a wheel & a chunk off one of my cases between EWR & GLA last week :mad:

[Irish Steve]

As for baggage handlers, you certainly have my sympathy - with the exception of the one who smashed a wheel & a chunk off one of my cases between EWR & GLA last week

Would that have been on a CO 757, or a 767?

If it was a 767, then there's more chance that the mechanical handling and sorting system did the damage than a rampie. Even if it was a 757, which is all manual handling, and on CO, it's F:mad:g hard work, it's still probable that the mechanical sorting system was the culprit.

I can't speak for other places, but at DUB, on the "new" system, after tagging, the bag arrives on a moving table on an endless loop. As it passes a specific point, the bar code on the tag is scanned, which decides which flight it's going on (that's the theory anyway), and at the relevant point around the loop, the table tilts, and gravity takes over, the bag is unceremoniously deposited into a bin.

Now, here's the problem. If the bag is any sort of respectable (or worse) weight, it arrives at the bottom of the bin at a good speed, and WILL impact against the stop end with some force, as the "bin" is about 8 to 10 feet at a 45 degree angle before it slopes to a more horizontal end area. So, your bag has just hammered into the end stop. The next bag, which is an American monstrosity weighing anything up to 35 Kilos now arrives at the top of the slope, and is deposited into the bin. If the sorter on that bin hasn't removed yours before the next one arrives, then 35 Kilos of fast moving bag hammers your bag into the end stop of the bin. In that situation, it's not hard to see how things like wheels and protuding handles and the like get destroyed very easily.

Another problem then is things like 757's. Each 757 can hold about 320 Bags. A CO turnround is just over an hour, so the team has to unload up to 320 bags, and then load 320 bags. Near the door, that's easy, once further back, there's no alternative other than a hefty swing, and with luck, and a smooth floor, the bag gets to the next member of the line, who repeats the exercise. That's assuming the floor is in good condition, which it may not be, and that the bag is made of a material that slides easily.

Another possibly problem area on a 757 is stacking the bags. The hold is not tall enough to stand up in naturally, so you're either kneeling on the floor, or crouching, and neither position is ideal for swinging a bag that may weigh up to 35 Kgs, especially when it's got to go on to the top of a pile that's already close to the ceiling. All too often, especially when they've got previous damage, like lumps of wire sticking out of them, or broken handles, or any one of a hundred other faults, it might not make the swing clean, and 35 Kgs of bag impacting another bag will do damage, sometimes (too often) to the handler as well as other bags.

So, while the rampie might have been responsible for the damage, there's a lot of other reasons not related to the rampie that could have resulted in a lost wheel.

I did ramp work for 3 years, and while I can't speak for others, I tried not to damage bags. I will admit to very deliberately putting the more obscene weight bags on the the reclaim belt in such a way as to make it as hard as possible for the moron that packed it to get it off the belt at the other end.:E :E :E I was also known for leaving the real heavy ones on the floor till all the rest had gone, and then waiting to get my breath back before putting them on the belt.

When you see some of the things that people pass into the system you have to wonder at their mentality. I've seen way too many rampies receive quite bad injuries from things like broken handles, broken edge wires, and even coat hangers that have punctured the case and are sticking out to catch someone that's not watching like a hawk, and at night, you can't always see that sort of booby trap.

Then there's the idiots that think a cardboard box of 12 bottles of wine is going to be OK in the hold with just one wrap of sticky tape around it as a handle. Do they have any idea how the delivery systems at most airporst work these days.

I could go on about things like kids buggies covered in barf, and other crazy things that people "must" have on their holiday, but that's thread drift.:D

Suffice to say that the vast majority just don't even have a clue how the system works, which is probably just as well:E :E

The most difficult item ever loaded? A pole vaulter's pole, that fitted the rear hold of a BAE 146 with about 2 Cm's to spare, after we'd "flexed" it a little to get it in the door.

The worst? Not sure, battery wheelchairs that have to go up the belt loader into the hold of an MD11 comes high on the list, but I guess the prize for now has to go to a piece of cargo that came in once on a CSA 737. It was 350 Kgs, and fitted the door aperture to within 1CM in all dimensions. It took us over an hour and a fork lift to get it out, and that was before we could get the bags out, as they were behind this monstrostity. The turnround was scheduled for 25 minutes. They went late!

[skydriller]

Then there's the idiots that think a cardboard box of 12 bottles of wine is going to be OK in the hold with just one wrap of sticky tape around it as a handle.

On my last trip through AMS, I witnessed a large box of 24 Absolut Vodka on the carroselle......opened........And with only ONE forlorn looking bottle in the center of it!!!!!

I and a few other fellow Pax had a chuckle........Now I wonder what could have happened to the other 23 bottles:E :suspect:

Regards, SD..

[Animalclub]

Irish Steve In Australia there's weight and dimension limits on bags checked at the check in counter (Office of Health and Safety rule) of 32 kgs. Bags over weight or size have to be checked in at the Overweight Check-In counter.

I'm surprised Brussels hasn't ruled on that one for you!!

Said with tongue firmly in cheek.

[Globaliser]

There's a 32 kg absolute limit on a single bag in the UK now, too.

[TightSlot]

Irish Steve - Excellent post, thanks.

Just to settle a long standing dispute within our family - presumably you'd never, presonally, travel with a softsided bag?

[Animalclub]

Globaliser

Is that something that Brussels had nothing to do with?

I'll get me coat!

[Final 3 Greens]

I have to say that the best balance between lightness (soft case) and robustness (hard case) that I have found so far, is provided by a German company who make suitcases with grooves... but I shan't mention the brand.

These cases are not indestructible, but they are very tough.

[Globaliser]

Animalclub: Globaliser

Is that something that Brussels had nothing to do with?Dunno. But it was a good idea, whoever took it up.

[manintheback]

Is this a record?

Checking in at Delhi on BA back to London. One lady was weighed in (her luggage) at 152kilos including 32 kilos alleged hand baggage in Eco class!. She had 3 guys with her helping to carry it to the desk. Then a loud and long argument ensued as the check in lady refused to even consider excess baggae there was so much of it.

[Rollingthunder]

That last example happens far too often. Proper response is to give directions to the cargo facility and tell them they'd better hurry up if they want to make the flight.

[1DC]

Animal Club....

Checked a 32kg bag at Melbourne a year ago and had to remove 2 kg's cos baggage handlers are only allowed to handle 30kg. max... At least that was the story... Fortunately the other bag only had 26kg. in it so it was an easy switch....

[Irish Steve]

Just to settle a long standing dispute within our family - presumably you'd never, presonally, travel with a softsided bag?

Errrrm.

I do, frequently, but it is always packed in such a manner that anything that's remotely fragile, like shavers or toilet bags, are always in the middle, and well wrapped in something that provides substantial protection. :O

I do avoid glass because it's too easy for it to get broken, and wire coat hangers are a no no for the reasons stated previously.

OK, if it's long haul, then I do consider hard cases, but then the risk is that even the renowned Samsonite can and will be damaged, partly because I know from experience that they are such B:mad:d things to get a grip on when being loaded or unloaded!

I will also admit to being sufficiently paranoid that if there's a flip top container in the toilet bag, (such as shower jel or shampoo) it's opened, sqeezed a little to expel some air, and then capped again before it's released, so that it doesn't blow it's lid and then spread it's contents all over the place as the pressure drops during the climbout :D :D. Yes the baggage hold is pressurised, but only to the same level as the cabin, and if you take a part empty container of shampoo up a mountain without opening it, and then see how easily the lid pops (espcially on a container that's been used a few times) when at the top of the mountain, you'll see why I take the precaution. It's also worth putting such items in a small polythene bag so that if the lid does pop, the contents are at least contained, there's nothing worse that having the entire contents of a case covered in something that in small quantities smells pleasant, but in large doses turns the stomach.

In Australia there\'s weight and dimension limits on bags checked at the check in counter (Office of Health and Safety rule) of 32 kgs. Bags over weight or size have to be checked in at the Overweight Check-In counter.

Theory is a wonderful thing! There are "In theory" similar rules here, but the reality is that on more than a few occasions, the rules get massaged to avoid unpleasantness at the check in.

The other problem is that even 30+ Kilos is almost unmanageable in some situations, the rear hold of the Fokker 70/100 is the best example, you need a 3Ft 6" midget to pack the rear hold of that aircraft, the space in the hold is so restricted, and to then try to move a 30+ Kilo bag in the space that\'s not available is in some situations impossible. We had one guy on the ramp where I worked that couldn\'t be sent to handle an F70/100, he was too darn fat to fit through the rear hold door:D

Often the problem with really heavy cases is that a couple pack one humungous monstrosity with their combined luggage, and as there\'s 2 of them travelling, they assume that as long as it\'s less than their combined allowance, all will be well. The same scenario often happens with family cases, and here, while there are places that sell things like cases, guess where they are? You got it, airside, so you can\'t get there until after you\'ve checked in, and in theory, you can\'t check in because your bag is too heavy! Ain\'t Irish Logic wonderful!.:E :E :E

If the check in desks are under pressure, (which is the norm these days), then there\'s a good chance that if it\'s close to the limit it will get past them, as they\'re not physically lifting it there. It probably won\'t get a heavy tag either, which makes it worse.

It\'s better than it used to be, but there\'s still massive room for improvement.

The other snag here is that over here, there\'s no such thing as a over weight check in counter. Things like buggies, and the other curse of baggage handlers, golf clubs, have to be checked in at the desk with the passenger present, then taken with tags on by the passenger to be sent down to the hall on the out of guage belt, because they don\'t fit the automatic distribution system, and if it\'s really fragile, then that\'s usually a safer way to get things into the system, but then the problem is that up to 50 flights worth of out of guage are all going down one belt, so there\'s a much higher risk of it not getting to the right place at the right time (or there is here at my local airport!!!)

[IB4138]

A couple of years ago, whilst waiting at the gate to board an EZY flight on LGW - AGP flight, a specific passenger was called to attend the desk. He was confronted by a quite angry ramp supervisor, who asked him if he was aware of the weight of his suitcase. The passenger claimed he wasn't and was told it weighed 38KGs....far too heavy and not to do it again or his baggage would be rejected.
Passenger came back with smug grin on his face and said " If only they knew I have a pressure washer in there."

Total @rse0:mad:

Question is how had he managed to check it in without excess baggage charge and no heavy warning label!!

[surely not]

The correct definition for objects carried in your hold baggage is 'personal effects' and the definition given for these 'personal effects' does not include pressure washers, car gearbox's, tinned food, items bought to trade etc etc etc. It does cover clothing, toileteries, a 'reasonable' amount of reading material, shoes and such like. Anything that doesn't fit this description should be sent as cargo.

Alas these days there is a lack of will by the airlines to enforce these regs.

The drawback in using a soft sided bag for Hold baggage is that they get used as padding in filling space in the ULD or hold of the a/c, plus they will suffer distortion when the heavy hard suitcase is packed on top of them or shoved into them.

[Byrna]

In January of this year, I took a Delta Airlines MD-83 from Montreal Pierre Elliot Trudeau to Atlanta Hartsfield and had a carry-on bag, one piece of luggage and a camera with tripod. I was refused to bring the carry-on AND the camera on board becase FAA regulations allowed only one carry-on! Before then, I had traveled Delta 3 times (prior to 9/11) and overseas to Europe 4 times and never had such problems.

I was lucky that my carry-on bag had nothing breakable in it and could be checked-in and had to take my camera and tripod as my "carry-on". Even with that, the check-in clerk had the nerve to verify if I had a right to bring a tripod onboard! Really now! Enough is enough no?! Can't tourists bring a camera without being harrassed like this!

Coming back, I had to somehow fit the large camera bag inside of that carryon bag (not a big bag either) and somehow managed to bring several breakable object (mugs, glasses and a bottle of liqeur) in the same bag! Certainly, my carry-on weights were well below any weight limit so they seem to take pleasure in being bureaucrats and highly inconveniencing passangers for the sake of regulations - haphazardly drawn-up regulations. They should be paying much more attention to WEIGHTS not pieces of luggage (although no. of pieces is important, two pieces of light carry-ons should not cause such a mess!). Its is overweight luggage which causes the most safety hazards.

John

[Animalclub]

Byrna Perhaps they were thinking that the tripod could be used as a weapon. If nail scissors can surely a tripod can!

[spiney]

15 years ago, nobody had wheely-bags and what you brought on board was pretty much driven by how much you could be bothered humping to the gate - and somehow everything fitted in..

10-12 years ago the wheely-bag arrived, but they were just a few and they were pretty small... and not everybody had 'em... until about 8 years ago when the full-on steroid wheely bag, with the lap-top case and various bolt-on bags, deftly weighing in at 25kg burst upon the scene...

I can see some flexibility being reasonable on the size and weight of items brought into the cabin - if the flight's quiet, you get more... if you've paid a higher price for your ticket, you get more etc. I don't see the problem in paying for excess cabin baggage - if the rules are clear, fair and reasonable and you have an excess based on your ticket price and you're prepared to pay for it, rather than having it checked in, then why not? It would save all the moaning and complaining between the passengers who have appropriately sized carry-ons, but fail to find anywhere to put them...