BA DEP Selection

[Mundy]

Have recently submitted my application and am waiting to hear. Since applying I have researched what I can on PPRUNE (there is an ace artcile in Wannabe) and have to say the prospect of a day or two at Cranebank does not fill me with joy. I have heard the current ratio for attendance to success (hold pool not even job) is about 12:2 at best sometimes even worse.

What is going on? It seems hardly worth the stress of attending if called forward, can BA's screening of applications really be that bad that they waste not only applicants' but their own time!!? Surely for every 12 they call forward there must be at least 100 applicants? Also, why do pilots with considerable experience have to be put through what appears to be largely b**lox? Maybe Wilbur Walsh will see the light and be rid of the psychowasters, it must cost a fortune in potential profit to run such an innefficient selection process.

Have also heard that as a new boy the chances of being home for a single weeekend/holiday for the first two years or more as a "blind liner" are virtually zero - great for family life if true.

The whole thing seems very painful and I am considering binning it, it's not as if they've even got that much to offer anymore over and above the "competition", Can someone out there maybe convince me otherwise, am I missing something here or will I be cast aside as a non believer?

Mundy :confused:

[Artificial Horizon]

Mundy,

It has to come down to your personal decision at the end of the day, if you truely feel what you are saying then don't bother. The simple fact of the matter is that B.A. can afford to have this long indepth process because of the number of applicants. The ratio of successful candidates may be low but B.A. obviously feel that they are only interested in getting the best pilots/people possible. Whether you agree with the process is really of not much importance, if you want to work for them then you will go through the process. If the thought of working weekends puts you off then don't apply!!

If the situation ever arises that B.A. don't have enough applications to fill the positions (highly unlikely) then they will have to look at the standards they have set and may reduce the requirements to pass the selection process. In the mean time put yourself forward and see how you go.

[Hot Wings]

Mundy,

You're well off the mark on the success ratio. On some days it is as high as 50%.

Everybody who gets an invite to The Rivers has the chance of a job. There are some excellent people who come to selection, unfortunately, there are also a few who think that BA owe them a job and come unprepared and sadly, there is a very small minority of people who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an aircraft.

If you can't be bothered to prepare for selection, how much effort would you put into learning a new type and new SOPs? The job is there for you to lose!

PS. Each typo on your application will cost you a point!!!!

[flaps to 60]

Mundy

I believe the process is either no more or possibly even easier than to get into the like of Brittania or EZY and when you look at the 3-5 days for the likes of Cathay or Emirates then the BA process is a breeze.

It can be done but if you go in with the feelings that you have at the momment then you will be one of the 12 or what ever the ratio is.

Try looking at it in another way.

1) BA will be offering you a Job for Life (as good as)

2) Short haul or Long haul

3) A decent starting salary

4) Excellent training

5) No Bond

6) Excellent Concessions

ETC ETC ETC

Oh yes there will be detractors and im sure that they have a point.

A) Forever to comamnd

B) Working loads of weekends (until you move up the bid)

C) Reduced working conditions compared to the OLD days.

ETC ETC ETC

But wouldn't you rather find out for yourself

Go for it what have you got to lose..........You can always say no if offered a job.

Good luck and i hope you make the right decision for you.

[MAX]

If you really dont care either way why not just go along? you will be the most relaxed candidate on the day. Personally I just strolled along to my assesments to have a look. After nearly saying goodbye during the interview because it wasnt for me they eventually offered me a position. Which got turned down.

its a couple days of your life.

Easy Peasy, so go for it.

MAX:cool:

[wheelbarrow]

Mundy:

12:2 should be expressed as 6:1......

lowest common denominator and all that....

[Harry Wragg]

Mundy

In answer to your query. You are right, a trip to Cranebank doesn't fill anyone with joy, however, you may find it of interest. A glimpse of BA if you will. The success ratio for any job is not good. Unfortunately this is the way of the world. The odds of winning the lottery are 14,000,000:1 but still people persist. Odds of 6:1 are pretty good in my book.

Having worked in HR (inc Recruitment) I can assure you that the selection procedures in most organistions are primarily their to ensure the continued success of the HR organisation itself.

BA's process is similar to many other airlines. If you wish to discuss selection procedures then the USAF have carried out many very interesting studies over the years.

If you want a job with BA then you will have to pass whatever "tests" they have dreamed up. Any existing pilot would be able to fly a BA plane successfully but they may not be able to deal with the unique BA corporate culture. If you can't handle the pointless exercises during recruitment then the pointless exercises needed to survive a day in BA will definitely drive you potty.

Profit is seldom an issue at BA for many departments so don't even try to discuss efficiency when dealing with BA.

AT LHR they operate bidline so as a junior "pilot type" you will have no life. At LGW they operate Carmen which is designed to be much fairer for all pilots (although some would argue that noone gets what they want).

Can I convince you to join BA. In my "opinion" it is better to try BA and then decide. Looking at it from afar will only give you delusions of grandeur or make you bitter and twisted.

So here is an update on Flaps to 60's points:

pros

1) Job for life (will last as long as most companies, average life expectancy for a company BA's size is 40 years!)

2) Choice of S/haul or L/haul

3) Starting salary OK, it depends on your current position, unemployed and you will think you have hit the jackpot.

4) Excellent training (same standard you would enjoy at any UK based airline)

5) No bond (just to repeat that point, NO BOND, come, get type rating, go....)

6) Excellent concessions (compared to some, Virgin even better)

7) Excellent final salary pension scheme (whoops, sorry!!)

8) Better than being unemployed

cons

a) Forever and a day to command (damn those demographics)

b) Working loads (of weekend, week days, holidays, christmas...)

c) You will be on a BScale doing the same job on inferior terms & conditions

d) May damage your health and sanity if you take it too seriously, you cannot change BA or anything that happens within it, just accept your fate.

As the man said, go take the chance, you can always say "no".

Harry :}

[BoeingMEL]

I have to say Mundy that, if I was still recruiting, I wouldn't touch you with a barge-pole! Whatever happened to the pursuit of excellence? Do you think that BA owes you a job? Did you think that you were guaranteed a job when you started training? What odds do you think are worthy of your valuable time? Is it the 1-11 sim ride that bothers you? The numeracy or literacy testing? Psychometric testing? BA is entitled (like every company) to select the very best personnel available.... not just the first who pass through their doors barely meeting their criteria. Sit in your armchair dear friend and wait for the airlines to beat a path to your door......... in the meantime maybe find an interim (but long term) source of income! I'll have 2 Big Macs and medium fries! bm (No..I am NOT ex BA!)

[matzpenetration]

Wasn't the vast majority of knowledge acquired for our ATPL exams largely b*****s as expressed in the opening thread? We still jumped through the hoop though.

We have all jumped many more seemingly pointless hurdles in pursuit of an airline career, yet when we finally get some commercial experience why do so many feel that the airlines owe them a job by virtue of the fact they have a bit of turbine and IFR time? I recently went through the BA process and was successful. I worked bloody hard in preparation for the day, as it is something I have wanted careerwise for many years. No-one in any industry deserves a worthwhile job without having to expend a bit of blood, sweat and tears. I agree that many of the tests seem a bit pointless, but they are designed to sort the wheat from the chaff, more in terms of your attitude and approach to a a given task than flying ability, as it is generally assumed that we can all fly or we wouldn't have the blue or green book in the first place. Even if the odds are as stated, why should they deter anyone? Because of what BA can offer and the money it is prepared to invest in training you (n.b. no bond) they have every right to be choosy. This a long term career proposition and the likelihood is that you will never look to move again. Just think, no more selection days for the rest of your career. If you want the job and feel it is for you then put your energy into preparing for the day.

When we all embarked on the long aviation road we had no guarantee of passing each exam or flight test, no guarantee of a job and no guarantee that the bank, building society or loved ones would turn round one day and say "enough is enough, pay back the money and stop this foolish pursuit".

If you found the drive, motivation and commitment to do it then, why can't you find it now? Years of scrimping, saving, instructing, air taxy work and multi sector turboprop days have paid off and I feel chuffed to have an offer from BA and 2 other carriers. To those who feel like Mundy, I hope you read this reply and decide it is worth having a go after all. To those trying to get a job with BA or a foot on the ladder, take heart, as I am just a bog standard pilot who keeps his head down, works hard, enjoys the job and at long last has found it pays off.

Rant over. Sorry if it seems a big negative. I rarely post replies but every so often some of the members really wind me up thinking the world owes them a living.

[ETOPS]

matzpenetration

Good riposte! Look forward to flying with you soon........

[Paul McKeksdown]

Matzpenetration,

Excellent answer, having done the time at Cranebank myself, I personally found the day in the HR department both interesting and fun. It was the first time I could get to play computer games without the wife on my back telling me to get something more important done!

It also, possibly as a side effect, causes a great deal of team spirit for those who wish to engender it. I won't forget the guys who were part of my little team and I certainly hope to see them again within the company in the future.

Those people there with Mundys attitude stood out a mile. This company has something to offer, job stability. Okay, for the first few years the going is tough, but hey look around there ain't that many if any rose garden companies out there.

Flying skills aside BA are looking for people who can live together in the cockpit on both shorthaul and longhaul routes. They assume that we have the flying skills hence the DEP selection. What they want to know is 'do you get frustrated or angry over the mundane?' Theres lots of that at 34,000' over the atlantic on an East coast trip. Can you hack it?

For those that can I can recommend the day. Go in without prejudice and attempt to enjoy it. If you want the job do some research and get an idea of what makes the company tick. Look the interviewer in the eye and sell yourself. Finally sit back with your other contestants in the bar at 18:00 and play 'whose phone now'

If you can't be arsed then leave the place for somebody who can. Frankly we'll all be better off without you!

Hehe :\

Edited due to having fat fingers and a small keyboard. Looking forward to crunching the CDU's!

[caulfield]

Flying skills aside BA are looking for people who can live together in the cockpit on both shorthaul and longhaul routes. They assume that we have the flying skills hence the DEP selection. What they want to know is 'do you get frustrated or angry over the mundane?' Theres lots of that at 34,000' over the atlantic on an East coast trip. Can you hack it?

I find this whole thread very condescending and whilst nobody owes Mundy a living,I do get his point.Like...all non-BA pilots flying right now dont know about corporate culture or how to deal with the mundane during a long-haul flight.
For an entry-level job into ANY AIRLINE,whether it be BA or Air Wagadougou ,a simulator check and the interview is all that is needed.Anything else is human resources psychobabble...keep it simple...can you fly and are you Ted Bundy's younger cousin?

[Tallbloke]

Well on Saturday I sat and listened to a pilot who very kindly gave his time to lecture wannabees on the selection process at BACX and he stressed that being able to sit in the cockpit for 8 hours with this person came very high up his list, and it applied to DEPs and those wanting a first job.

[Flying Dispatcher]

I have to say that I agree with you that the selection process does seem daunting! However, if you have drive and determination to get through then you will suceed.

I have gone through the whole process and I didn't think that I stood a chance when I submitted my application form. However, I had the phone call at the start of this week to say that I am in.

So Mundy, I suggest that you give it your best shot. If you do not get through, then as long as you gave it 100% effort you cannot complain.

FD;)

[Paul McKeksdown]

Caulfield,

Sorry old chum but there is a big point to be made here, and it's not psychobabble. It comes down to a simple equation for the company:

Applicants>job positions=entitlement to ask what we want and pick the best

Trust me the applicants in this case far outweigh the jobs. Why? Doesn't really interest me as to the individual motivation however, if you go to a job interview, be it with Wanadogo airline or BA you must do your homework. This is competition here and everyone has the same starting ground of a little CPL/ATPL book so its nothing special and in reality means nothing.

The HR people or even if its only the Chief Pilot assessing will be doing just that, assessing. They are bound to ask some of the stock questions like 'So, why do you want to join our company?' and an answer of 'coz its got big shiny airplanes and loads of money' won't really pull it in the face of other applicants who have researched.

During my interview nobody asked about my flying experience, they had my log book and knew what was in it. They wanted to know about me, who I was, how I ticked and was I really interested or just cruising the field. A little research, look smart and be positive is good advice for ALL INTERVIEWS. Go in with a negative outlook from the start and you start on the back foot.

Good luck to all who attend the interviews, it's a pain of a day but worth it if it gets you the job you want irrespective of which company/banana boat you work for.

:ok:

[Capt Pit Bull]

I'm with Caulfield.

Applicants>job positions=entitlement to ask what we want and pick the best

PM - That relationship doesn't really mean its a good idea to 'ask what we want' because it doesn't automatically follow that the result will be 'the best'. Any selection process is a two way street - not only is the employer entitled to pick and choose - so is the employee. Posters so far are very big on the idea that the employee has to put the effort into showing the employer that he/she is worthy, whilst glossing over the reverse aspect of the relationship.

What BA should be asking is this : "How come a potential DEP like Mundy views his job prospects at BA as being so mediocre that it is borderline even turning up for the interview."

followed closely by:

Is it possible that we are putting off some of the better prospects for recruitment and therefore reducing the overall quality of our eventual recruits?"

But of course to express such a view is tantamount to heresy. After all, it would make the suggestion that maybe everything at BA is not perfect.

As far as I'm concerned, the demise of the final salary scheme removed the last unequivocal advantage of joining BA.

A further update on the list from previous posts:

1.) Job for life. (my take: - company under assault from competition. In a better condition than post 9/11, but basic corporate culture still present. Medium term prognosis? who knows.)

2.) Choice of L/haul or S/haul. (my take: - see other threads. You'll get what you're given. 5 years down the line when you are unfrozen, then a choice - but five years is a long time. Type changes are an obvious cost to be attacked.)

3.) Starting Salary OK (agreed.)

4) Excellent training (I'd go with Average. Discussion beyond the scope of this thread)

5) No bond (my take: - why are some people actively selling this as a good point? Afterall, if BA is so brilliant, why would you leave? And why would people in BA want to see you come, soak up cash, and then leave? Doesn't this suggest something about the corporate culture?)

6) Excellent concessions (my take: Concesssions? Lets be honest, who really cares? These days air travel is so cheap. Thats not to say a free first concession isn't a really nice perk, but its not at the core of the relationship between you and the company.)

7) Excellent final salary pension scheme (just to be clear - its gone.)

8) Better than being unemployed (well, any flying job would qualify on this count surely?)


There are many yardsticks by which a jobs desireability can be measured, and it is certainly true that a job at BA measures up quite reasonably against many of them. But for myself, I don't see a compelling case for giving up seniority at a different employer JUST to come to BA.

The 'we are the best, everyone must want to work for us' mindset is just the same as the 'we are the best, all passengers must want to fly with us' point of view which has the company reeling from the competition.

[Shuttleworth]

CPB ;
The 'we are the best, everyone must want to work for us' mindset is just the same as the 'we are the best, all passengers must want to fly with us' point of view which has the company reeling from the competition.

Beautifully put.

[wingandprayer]

Hope you are lucky enough to be one of the twelve.
I have been trying to get into BA for 6 years. Closest I got was an interview date ( in September 2001) which got cancelled. Said they would contact when they next recruited. Never heard a dickie bird.
All I get now is 'After further consideration, our decision is not to take your application further on this occasion. (despite being rated on a BA type).
Would love to just look out of the window for the next 15 years!!!

[RoyHudd]

Believe it or not, a member of the BA DEP recruitment team said to me last week "We're scraping the bottom of the barrel now". And she was referring to the current applicants invited for interview.

Makes you think about the mindset of the BA HR department, doesn't it? (Not interested in the job myself, which was probably why I was made privy to this insight)

[rhythm method]

Yes it does say it all...

scraping the bottom of the barrel cos I honestly think their hands are tied for other reasons!

BACX have put forward around 200 candidates, of which I believe only 12 have been deemed suitable. No sour grapes on my part, but do you really think that that would be an HONEST reflection on the ability of BACX crews, bearing in mind that BA mainline flight ops have been auditing BRAL/Brymon training standards for 7 years now? If our crews actually were so poor, why have we not lost our franchise... indeed why did BA buy us out?

political correctness or political reasoning?

Can't wait to hear passenger's response when they hear "you are being flown in BA coloured aircraft by pilots not deemed worthy of joining real BA"!!!

I keep coming back to one particular quote during BALPA discussions over merger... "Over my dead body" will BACX crews join BA. I'll let you fill in the blanks.

RM

[Hot Wings]

Not so sure about scraping the bottom of the barrel - it all depends who turns up on the day. Surely, RAF VC10 or C130 pilots are quality applicants?

With regards to BACX pilots, the agreement is that anyone who applies gets an interview, even if their application is so bad that they would never have been invited to attend if they were from another airline. So the BACX pilots have a head start!

Sadly, the reality is that many of the BACX applicants show little or no enthusiasm for joining BA and few have done enough preparation. How can you work for BACX and not have a clue about the Oneworld Alliance or how Terminal 5 will be good for BA?! Willie Walsh - who???? Or you can't even explain why you want to work for BA?

There is no hidden agenda, the jobs need to be filled and are there for you to take. Do your preparation and then do some more. Show lots of motivation at the interview. And, finally, don't have the attitude that BA owes you a living.

[Tandemrotor]

rhythm method

I don't know who Hot Wings is, but I can't help wondering if he has an insight into recruiting, and is possibly expressing an accurate (though general) description of a proportion of BACX candidates?

You can't deny that every BACX applicant has an advantage over anyone else, as they are all guaranteed the opportunity of presenting themselves personally for interview.

At the interview stage, it is my personal opinion, that BA couldn't give a stuff whether you are a capable pilot or not (which is why BA pilots are no better than any others!) If you subsequently don't perform at the sim stage then, bad luck, perhaps you had a bad day, we all do occasionally!

However, at interview, they are going to want to filter applicants in some way. It is up to you as an applicant, to discover what that way is, and prepare for it!

You may very well disagree with BA's chosen method, but if you do, their filter has already started to work!! Rather than resorting to some ridiculous 'conspiracy theory'. I suggest you should be asking, not why did 188 of my colleagues fail! But rather; what did the 12 who succeeded do differently!

On a personal note: I don't know if any BA recruiters read pprune, but if they do, I would imagine it would be very difficult to interview anyone from BACX without having some pretty negative preconceptions!

You have your colleagues to thank for that!

You may also like to confirm that your quote of "Over my dead body" even IF it is accurate, was made by a senior MANAGER, and is the opposite of the position originally adopted in "BALPA discussions over merger..."

Please fill in the blanks for us.

Good luck

[rhythm method]

Tandemrotor,

I do actually agree with you that BACX candidates have a real starting advantage in being guaranteed an interview. I also totally agree with Hot Wings, that if the candidate has not done his/her homework on BA, OneWorld, and all the other issues currently affecting BA or will do so in the future, then they shouldn't progress to the next stage.
BA do not owe anyone a living.. indeed if the candidate couldn't be bothered to prepare, then I would query their motivation entirely to their occupation. But of the 188 who don't get through, do you really believe they ALL couldn't be bothered?
Certainly not everyone is going to make the grade, but if even half got through to day 2, then your approx 90 candidates get whittled down by 90%. Do you really think that is a normal attrition rate?

I am not going to get involved in BA bashing, as they have provided income to my family since BOAC days, and I do think they are still really high up most pilot's aspiration list (maybe not as much as it used to, but there are still a huge number of applicants), but if you compare BACX success rates to those of 'outside' applicants, I think you may be quite shocked at the difference.

As I said, I have no personal agenda; on my day I made a b@lls of the sim, but the applicant with me was excellent, displayed all the right crm points, good decision making, good flying, etc and still was deemed unsuitable.

It doesn't make any sense for there to be any agenda, BA have seats they desperately need to fill, and yes it is their trainset, so they decide what hoops you have to jump through, I merely wonder at how poor our guys are at getting through those hoops.

Please don't allow this to degenerate into another 'them and us' slanging match. That is certainly not what I intend from my post, I simply am putting forward my viewpoint on the matter.

Cheers, RM

[Hot Wings]

The difference between the success rates of the BACX pilots and other pilots is because of the fact that BACX pilots will be invited to interview, even when they have not passed the application screening process. It is as simple as that! If everybody who applied was given an interview the success (or lack of it) rates would be comparable.

It is not possible for me to comment on the outcome of a particular sim but I would like to say that sometimes "questions" are raised on day 1 that need to be answered on day 2!

[Tandemrotor]

RM

I am genuinely disappointed for you, and I hope my previous post didn't appear personal. I fly with people who, on this occasion, have been unsuccessful. I find it hard to understand why. I was unsuccesful at my first attempt, and due to market forces, had to wait 7 years for my second attempt! I hope you don't have to wait so long.

HW

You said you are unable to "comment on the outcome of a particular sim", but isn't it the case that all BACX candidates CAN receive a personal debrief?

Or have I got that wrong?

[Hot Wings]

Tandemrotor - I am not aware of any BACX candidates receiving a personal debrief following the sim. I don't think that there is sufficient time.

[rhythm method]

You are correct, all BACX candidates are able to receive a debrief if unsuccessful. The debrief after the sim is not done there and then, rather the candidate contacts Cranebank after receiving the official 'Dear John' letter!

Tandem, nothing personal taken... unbelievable sensible discussion on a BA/BACX theme!

Cheers RM

[3Greens]

I can categorically state that there is NO hidden agenda regarding BACX pilots. The recruitment is done by line guys, most hold a training appointment and are often unaware of the guys previous company. If they are good enough on the day they will get in - simple as that.

Rythm Method

you say you fly with good guys evey day -maybe so but perhaps they didn't perform at assesement, or maybe that your criteria differs from the BA selectors.

And yes, before anyone asks i am part of the recruitment team.

[SR71]

Applicants>job positions=entitlement to ask what we want and pick the best

Cap PB,

I spy a non-sequitur in the above as well.

;)

[rhythm method]

3Greens,

I referred specifically to the candidate in the sim with me on my assessment day. He demonstarted excellent CRM qualities, good decision-making, excellent teamwork, and even flew the sim very well... yet he didn't get in. I fail to see what more he could have done.

I, on the other hand, had no-one to blame but myself on the day. All parts of the non-tech were above average, but my flying let me down.. my problem.

It's just that obviously the selection criteria mustn't be the same as we were expecting. At least now there are a couple of guys from the recruitment team posting, so your input is appreciated.

All the best, maybe next time, eh?

RM

[normal_nigel]

Pit Bull

yet again a posting from an outsider desperate to be in.

Can you just explain one bit.

Exactly how is BA reeling from it's competition?

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of an anti BA post. Pathetic.

I mentioned on a thread a while ago that my mate, who is a BA RJ secondee to BACX, was commenting on the fact that the fleet is now run by a "bunch of ex-J41 GA amateurs".

Now obviously these are in the minority but if they are running the fleet and their attitudes are seeping through maybe its that attitude that\'s letting people down at Cranebank.

[Capt Pit Bull]

NN

yet again a posting from an outsider desperate to be in.

Just to be sure, is this a reference to me not being in BA and wishing I was?


Exactly how is BA reeling from it's competition?

I'm not going to get into this, for several reasons. Firstly its a thread divergence, secondly it might involve commercially sensitive information. Thirdly I'm no commercial genius and only see one small segment of the market. In that segment BA are definitely hurting. If you wish to discuss it more, lets go to PMs.

But hey, never let the facts get in the way of an anti BA post. Pathetic.

Call it pathetic if you wish. It was intended as a constructive critiscism in that I feel any company that believes it is the top of the pile should be very careful to take note when potential employees start acting in a manner that suggests otherwise.

Its really the same thing as the CRM mental model / confirmation bias thing. It is risky to just write it off as a problems with the applicants. Earlier in the thread it was stated that the applicant often did not have a clear reason for wanting to work for BA. Is it not a least possible that the reason is because the advantages are not anywhere near as clear cut as they once were? Isn't that something we should all worry about? Getting the right people - well, it doesn't get any more important than that.


Now obviously these are in the minority but if they are running the fleet and their attitudes are seeping through maybe its that attitude that\'s letting people down at Cranebank.

<nods> Could well be. I'm not very clued on the internal working at BACX. I have a few mates there as well but I'm kind of out of touch.

CPB

[normal_nigel]

Ok so we obviously don't see eye to eye (see other thread) but I amopen to debate.

I'm off out now as all good Catholic boys should be on Good Friday ;) .

To be continued...

NN

[Capt Pit Bull]

Ok so we obviously don't see eye to eye (see other thread) but I amopen to debate.

Fair enough.

Sorry about the back in the box comment btw, probably was a bit inflamatory.

CPB

[Tandemrotor]

rm

If the guy you were in the sim with was BACX, couldn't he have been debriefed on his performance, and the reason he was unsuccessful?

Does sound pretty harsh.

[rhythm method]

No debrief is given on the day, but you can get in touch later on for a telephone debrief. I don't know how thorough it is cos I'm still awaiting a response.

Again this is an advantage over other applicants, and may well be worth its' weight in gold, so to speak.

We'll find out in short time why he didn't make it and then see if the criticism is valid.

RM

[normal_nigel]

Pit Bull

see pms

[C172s]

Heres My Two Pence Worth,...

I don't have a problem with what Mundy posted. In fact I agree. I had seecond thoughts about going to BA b4 my interview because although the pay is good, BA does not stand for BE ALL.

I' disagree with some views that BA pilots are best in the country/world. BA pilots are not the best pilots ..no..no..no. My airline have dropped people in the past due to various operational reasons who have now got jobs with BA. British Aiways pilots are the best for British Airways! This does not mean that they'll qualify to fly for or be successful with others.

The BA selection procedure is solely in place to ensure that the candidate fits into the BA corporate mould and can be remoulded into something that is required by the company. Essentially there are good pilots and bad in every company, we all do the same job and should have respect for one another as pilots irrespective of the company that we should work for.

I have seen great handlers and operators turned down by BA and their opposites given the thumbs up by BA. I've trained amongst BA pilot cadets and they were no better than anyone else, in fact they had more failures/incidents then those on some other courses. However those of you who are, or used to sit in front of a jetliner know that actually flying the aircraft is only part of the overall package.

BA is a huge successful company that employs many many thousands of people from all over the world. As a result alot of procedures are standardised and must be followed strictly hence selection. The HR department in conjunction with Ops run the company. Employees are effectively carefully chosen 'drones' (sorry but its true) that must adhere to these rules and procedures in a which makes BA what it is today. BA works as a company therefore their theory works FOR THEM. If u are successful, good for you, if not, its an experience.

I was not successful with BA because I did not apparently 'want it enough'. This is true. I may not want to work for them, but i'll definately fly with them. I fly aeroplanes for a living and I'm happy with that. I wish I could get paid more but i'm happy as when i fly i know i'm truly in command in my Euro-electric-jet.

And for all of you boeing vs airbus guys/gals....an aeroplane is an aeroplane!!!

[v1r8]

Would it be possible for a newhire to live in and commute from Amsterdam? Or do you have to relocate?

V1

[Capt Pit Bull]

Well, that depends on your definition of Commute.

If its weekly, then yes. You could bid for a lot of tours. However be advised that (on my fleet - 737 at LGW) tours are on the decrease and a becoming more sought after by the commuters as a result. I think that is true amongst the F/Os as well.

You would definitely spend a lot of time in B&Bs though, or have to get a room somewhere. It really depends on your priorities - I would recommend relocating rather than commuting, but thats just me. It would certainly be possible not to.

CPB

[Justbelowcap]

Commuting is no problem on the 'bus/777/747. In fact there are several fairly junior FO's who commute from AMS who work on the 'bus and if you are about to join I'm sure the office can point you in their direction for some hints and tips. I've a feeling that 737 LGW is not suitable for commuting unless you are pretty senior.

[v1r8]

Thanks gents.

V1

[normal_nigel]

C172

Post was good right up to the "I didn't get in bit".

[Wide-Body]

Hey 172

Please can you tell my fleet manager that I am a carfully chosen Drone!!! I can hear him cracking ribs laughing.

BA may not have the best pilots, though some of them are (World formation aerobatic champions etc). But apart from the usual 5%, the guys are great to fly with and highly professional. I am sure in your employ ALL the pilots are ace operators, outstanding Teamskills and technical stars. Unfortunatuly ours are a bit more-----Human

Yep BA is a huge company and that has its disadvantages with corporate selection. However we are less likely to suffer from personality clash cultures affecting careers than smaller airlines. I am glad our recruiters take on people who "want it enough", it does make it a better flight deck atmosphere than flying with the whingers.

Yes we have a long way to go commercially, but are better placed than others.



As for your statement


i'm happy as when i fly i know i'm truly in command in my Euro-electric-jet

You are so correct brother, and for me especially in BA.

Now must go and email your drone quote to management they are going to sooo love that one

Respect to all

Wide

[caulfield]

Naturally enough,this thread got sidetracked into a us vs. them slanging match.Personally,I thought the overblown nature of BA's(and a lot of other airlines)pilot selection procedure was more interesting to discuss.Being a pilot isnt rocket science,nor is being a BA pilot.In a 20 minute interview,you can learn pretty much what you want to know about someone;if they fit your corporate image,are they a maverick dude pilot or a stuffy stuff-shirt by the book type or somewhere in between, are they a conversationalist(a flightdeck is an awfully small place),are they patient and understanding etc,etc.
Then a 30 minute sim check to check basic flying skills and prioritization and judgement when faced with an emergency.Its really that simple and I cant for the life of me see the need for anything more.
One thing this thread has exposed which is a sign of the times and rather sad;pilot skills are losing out to corporate image.If you're a good pilot and embody the BA corporate image then just great.If you're a good pilot but a touch too maverick and independent,you'd better work contract(better pay anyway).If you embody the BA corporate image but arent a particularly good stick and rudder man with so-so judgement,NOT OKAY.Ok,you dont need any stick and rudder skills if you fly Airbus.But you still need the judgement.How many of these category 3's slip through the net?When all is said and done,doesnt the chief pilot before hiring someone say to himself:"Is he a damn good pilot,one I'd want with me when things go from bad to worse on a lonely moonless night?"

[atyourcervix73]

Well said 172....comments that are right on the mark IMHO.

Normal Nigel..I hope you had your tounge in your cheek with your last. Otherwise it would seem you dont like honesty..a candid comment..or perhaps your taking yourself far too seriously.

Wide-Body...No BA drivers are not all drones..but then again having sat down with a few current senior BA and Ex BA people, it is certainly an opinion that has some basis based on their experience of Flt Ops..and their current batch of newbies. As for the skills/ability arguement.....thats just opinion, either way.

BA is a business like all others, it has its strong points, and its weak points, its people are human and therefore not perfect. As to whether its a good work place?....thats up to those who choose to work there to comment.

My 10 pence..for what its worth. (probably 2 pence!)

:8

[normal_nigel]

atyour

I never suck my tongue.

Did you not get in either?;)

NN

[atyourcervix73]

Nigel...

As my better half works for them.....one in the family is enough!

And no...I've never bothered applying...I like my weekends!:E

[normal_nigel]

atyour

fair enough.

As for weekends. I love em but then again I'm senior enough to get at least three a month off ;)

[767yyz]

Interesting wee thread this. Good points throughout :ok:

Here's my two cents worth from Maple Leaf Land

If anyone out there thinks that the only criteria for a major undertaking flight deck hiring is a psychy test, and flying evaulation/experience/sim check then they have got it ALL wrong...

Before our newbies get to the red and green coloured door, we'll already know they're not looney tunes, been locked up for anything and they can competently operate a metal pressurized tube of some description. Of course, the sim test is a critical part - but not it all.

The last thing you need on an 11 hour hour haul from Toronto to Tel Aviv is being wedged in the pointy end with 2 other arses, who complain about everything, and can't focus on the inevitably mundane, but detail orientated tasks in-cruise.

I had the opportunity to talk to newbies at my bus lines about 18 months ago, and before the job offer gets into their sweaty mits, we need to see: commitment, ability to lead/delegate, good humour, communication skills, ability to work in multi-disciplinary teams (no let's not harp on about CRM), ability to understand customer service. ALL in addition to flight operations...

As I said, it's taken for granted getting off and back on the ground in one piece, along with good operational decision making skills are already there...

Lastly, working for a major is not everyone's cup o' tea. However, if a big bus line extends the invite, you owe it to yourself to do your best and weigh it all up...Could you survive being at the arse's end of the bid lists and the crap schedules ? What about the double digit year wait for a command ? What about the bureaucracy ? If you can survive it all (we've all been there), then welcome to the pointy end...

Did I rant ? Did I ? Oh, probably...

[C172s]

My fellow aviators,


It proves my point that those that believe I'm jealous/bitter think they've got it better than everyone else. Another Big Airways standard attitude. Pathetic. Get off ur high horses. BA is for certain people not all. Good, Bad, ugly, whatever, if youre BA's type you are in!!!

Same job, different logo. Never forget that.

I'm a realist, i guess thats hard to understand for some.

With all due respect..

[767yyz]

You're right C172s - Big Airlines dont fit everyone...and certain types fit the work environment...

If it ain't for you, you'll be miserable amongst Nigel and Nigella, or in this case, Lumber and Jack...

Good luck.

[mrs glum]

I would hate to add a negative now but you all sound like smarmy BA people .If you think that it is all about passing some daft tests ,then being a number ,then heaven for you !

[atrpilot]

I just spent a day at the Rivers...and got the word (after knowing in any case) that I had been unsuccessful. As a current 737 driver I can only say that the experience was to my advantage. I learned a lot about the process and the company.

So to the guys who are saying it is so daunting you shouldn't even try...then don't....and you'll simply never be the best! What have you got to lose but a night's hotel and the drive there???

The details on pprune are great....I aced the interview thanks to it...did well on the verbal and numeric...but bombed the RADAR thing of all things...must have missed some serious instructions there!!!

Go for GOLD everyone...give them a shot...I'll be trying again next year!

[MrBernoulli]

atrpilot

You got all this feedback about your day at The Rivers? Or is this YOUR take on how well YOU thought you did. Chances are you may have failed on this occasion for stuff you thought you had cracked. Are you sure you "aced" the interview?

[new_nigel777]

I think everyone needs to calm down. It would be daft if everyone who applied to a particular airline got the job, as everyone is different, with different motivations and skills. BA is a large company, doesn't bond its pilots and obviously wants its new guys to fit in, for their sake as much as BA's.

The current mood in the company is excellent. Morale is very good, everyone believes thay are working for a good employer and prospects for the future are excellent. Which is a lot more than I can say for my previous company who would like to think their operation is viewed in the same way by its staff but couldn't be further from the truth.

[Sector 7G]

I was just wondering where some of you guys who got in stayed during the initial 6 weeks training, I really dont fancy staying in a hotel for that long and commuting is not an option.

Any ideas??

[no1mutt]

Just going back to the original post subject.
I was wondering whether anyone had any top tips for doing the radar screen test. I have spoken to a couple of people who thought that this is where they might have failed the selection process.
Cheers for any advice.

[FlyingTom]

Yes, my top tip....
You get a practice before the real thing so remember how much you have to move the stick to get say 10 west, 20 west etc. When the screen goes blank do it from memory. Don't forget to reverse everything!

Good luck.

[flyA380]

I chose the mathematical option: I used the X and Y axis.
20 east gave thus: 0, -20 (remember to reverse things)
a further 10 north gives: -10, -20
and so on. I just kept on staring at the spot where my coordinates got me and kept repeating those coordinates to not forget them.
When the SE and NW started, it got more complicated, but using 15 and 25 and rounding down when far from the center did the trick.
It worked for me, but maybe there's a far better system. Then again: we are all different. Who knows what will work for you?;)

Something else: shouldn't this thread be in the wannabees section?
(And please note: the selection team monitors PPRUNE just as we all do... They know you know all this stuff in advance when deciding on your case.:E )

[You Gimboid]

Sorry to contribute to threadjack but:

Use the keys on the keypad as NSEW references and count each key as 10 miles. Wherever the '5' key is will be where you want to put the crosshairs on the radar grid relative to the centre!

[no1mutt]

Cheers guys for the info much appreciated. Had better prepare for the questions now.