QF LHR Base (merged)

[argusmoon]

Rumblings from the QF LHR Base suggest that all is not well.Rosters have now been generated,many with with 230 hours.They provide for little time at base to enjoy the very expensive accommodation.Thoughts of commuting from such places as Paris and Madrid have apparently evaporated.On many of the already completed sectors the Thai based crew have been the onboard trainers with many of the new crew having no idea of procedures,stowages and service protocols.Qantas management have been putting spin on the situation,telling all and sundry that it is wildly successful.
Two years to go and already people are un happy...Where are your words of enthusiasm now Q-Tee?
As for passengers...if you are heading to LHR try one of the alternative carriers..all of whom have their act together.

[411A]

Commute from Paris or Madrid?
Really?

Oh, come now...:suspect: lets be realistic.

Oh yes, when you applied, you asked for work...yes, or no?:ooh:

[capt.cynical]

Why am I NOT SURPRISED !! :(
I hope the efficient and hard working Thai Crew are getting the recognition and appreciation they deserve. :)

[DEFCON4]

230 hours in one roster...why not take a hammock to the airport and stay there.These poor schmucks..we told them but they wouldn't listen.

[q--tee]

oh argusmoon .... your information is slightly.... well .... wrong ! :p

My roster has just been published ... 184.2 hours .... even the management over here admit that because they wrote a minimum of three DAYS off between trips into the work rules ( not local nights as in OZ) you actually get about five days between trips ( ie arrive home at 0700hrs .... then three days off after that day.... then sign on at 2100hrs the day after your three days off .... very nice).

Because of that rule they cant physically build the rosters past about 200hrs ...

And yes, the Thai crew are as hard working and helpful as ever.

oh and we have had plenty of time to travel, and have been doing it ... everyone is having a great time ... the only grumblings I have heard is regards to the staff travel process .... we have to get our tickets posted from Oz .... but my trip to Amsterdam on the weekend was only 63 pound including taxes (43 pound of taxes !!!!) .... full fare with BMI's internet fares... so I dont see the issue. If you want to go further afield, you have to plan a bit more if you want to use staff travel, most people are buying in bulk, getting open tickets ..

As for commuting ... well people are already doing it ... one from as far as switzerland, several more a bit closer, havent heard of any problems for them!

Thanks for your interest though, but we are all doin great...:ok:

[Le 3rd Homme]

Q Tee I Don't actually believe you are in LHR but rather part of the spin team.My ex wife is in LHR (presumably to get away from me)and she ain't happy for the reasons mentioned by Argus.I know this because of the e-mails and phone messages I keep getting(harrassment?)
For me your assertions are a little too glib.Also why is it crew lists ex LHR are unavailable on CIS?

[jettlager]

The word from the Thais so far is that the operation from the passenger's point of view is a complete disaster.

Not that anyone in QF management give a rats....

It seems that the ex domestic FAs who have been rubber stamped into the CSS role are ignoring the Thai's advice when it comes to service standards and proceedures.
The Thais of course having the benefit of YEARS of longhaul experience.
It seems that "by the book", whatever that means, is the way things are being done with the results being 4.5-5 hour meal services.

Problems on board that wouild require 5 minutes to resolve by someone with experience are causing those in charge hours of grief.
Reams of ICANS are being written by the normally mild mannered Thais such is the disgrace.

They also report on one occasion arrival PAs being made straight after take off.
One can only wonder what the passengers must be thinking and experiencing.

Those taking over from a southbound QF2 report the first class cabin to be in a shambles.
Blankets all over the floor, doonas draped over seat backs, glasses in the cabin and food still in the ovens with two Chairmans Club member incensed at the crew's ineptitude.
One quoted as saying that he had spent $16000 AUD on his seat and was furious at being a Qantas experiment.

With the UK based FAs coming online next week with next to nothing in the way of training save for the cardboard mockup in the hanger, the service standards being endured by our passengers are set to remain much the same or perhaps sink lower with some LHR-SIN sectors having no Thais on board.

As a crew member who has spent years proudly plying the flagship Kangaroo route it sickens me to see what a shambles our operation is becoming in the name of corporate greed.
I expect and am used to being treated with contempt by management.
The LHR base startup and it's operation is an example of QF treating it's customers in this fashion.

QF MANAGEMENT YOU ARE A F--KING DISGRACE AND A POX ON YOU.

[stephenj]

It warms my old heart to hear some of the tales, true or false now coming from the new london base!
was it ever going to be any different, short haul crew operating a long haul flight? I couldnt do a wagga wagga turnaround what makes them think they can do a London horses for courses. Of course the spin doctor mark is falling over himself with great words of congratulation. what else could he/she do? Kylie he whirling dirvish of qf. no wonder BA doesnt want him anymore?
I look forward to hering more and more as the sad experiement goes on and on. Best of luck to the Pommie crew satrting soon. Youl need it working with those pursers? See you in transit.? That should be fun. Forget the customers service stuff......whateevr you do do it safely. For your sake and the sake of the pax. OUR companies good name is on the line with you! Well its in the gutter already so just stay safe for yourselves.

[ditzyboy]

Qantas' attitude towards staff and customers is just appalling.

The onboard situation you describe on these flights is similar to JQ really. The first four months of Jetstar I would not wish on another human - it was that bad! Settled down a little now but is still FAR from acceptable. The galley and toilets are an OHS nightmare. My point is you guys aren't alone.

Rewarded for 4.5 years of HARD work by getting Jetstar thrown onto us. So I can empathsise with you people... And pray. The drastic cuts QF group has made to training in the last one-two years is astonishing. How many customers do they need to lose, and how many staff need to be abused and injured before QF get the point? Or do they care?

The knowledge that the all areas of the Group are suffering isn't much consolation though, hey?!

End of rant! :hmm:

[Doors2Automatic]

I don't work for QANTAS but it seems another cost saving exercise by the one's in suits is again affecting the service and again it's the passenger who suffers!!:mad:

They thought about cost reductions,not about the human side ie p*ssing off Oz based crew.There is more and more ways of getting down under and if we (all airlines)do not deliver,our pasengers (the one's who pay our wages management)will go elsewhere!!.

Passengers pay good money to Oz and rightly expect good service not 4 hours + for a meal to be delivered.

We all understand how volitile this industry is and are constantley reminded about fuel costs,how exspensive we the staff are but airline management please just remember,

Happy crew = happy passengers =return business
poor service = peed off passengers = they go elsewhere

short term cost cutting on service = long term loss.

Treat people well and you will reap the benefits.

Doors2Automatic.

[surfside6]

It has been said elsewhere but is worth repeating..the greatest threat to the quality of airline service is airline management.Nowhere is this more evident than the Qantas London Base.It is about time that passengers started voting with their feet and perhaps the clowns at the top will stop laughing all the way to the golden handshake.
$16000 is a helluva a lot to pay to be a guinea pig.

[Doors2Automatic]

Surfside6 what do you mean$16000!?,is that the starting pay for LHR base?.

D2A.

[jettlager]

Spontaneous and rather touching display of goodwill was demonstrated by the Thai crew the other day.

If rumour is correct [and it is] it seems that they took the opportunity to line up single file and bow with hands clasped together in deference to the Sydney based crew that they were about to work with.

I've never seen nor heard of this happening before and it transpires that this act was a reflection on and result of, their experiences working with QFUK.

Kup koon ma kup.

Jettlager

P.S. To be expected given that the poisonous and incompetent "Fat Boy Slim" AKA "Dick More Ass" [think about it] is running the UK [mis]management team.

[surfside6]

$16000,I was referring to the Frequent Flyer mentioned in jettlager's previous post.It is the cost of his seat .

[Captain.Q]

I have friends and family who regularly fly from LHR to Australia.Why can I no longer access crew lists ex LHR ?.Is there another way of having friends and relatives acknowledged?

[jasmin]

Qantas and their training ( very short indeed) is to be blamed for any lack of training the QF UK based crew may appear to have ( even though ALL the current QFUK crew are Qantas Long Haul and Short Haul crew and have no lack of experience in the job in general). It takes time for anyone to settle into a new position and to become completely versed in all aspects of the service flow etc ( which is what the Thai crew seem to have no tolerance or acceptance for- which they should , considering they were new to Qantas once and were in exactly the same position as the QFUK crew when they first started)..... It all boils down to lack of communication between Qantas and the Qantas Thai crew base management in relation to most Thai crew having no idea of the concept of the London base and the fact that there will be people they will be working with over the coming months who will need guidance - the Thai crew are INCREDIBLY efficient - gained by years of experience on the route - the Thai crews are a wonderful source of guidance and should be more understanding and tolerant - considering they will be working with the UK based crew for years to come. All the criticism the UK based crew have received ( seemingly mosty from the Thai crew) has been based from only 2 weeks experience working with UK based crew - and any criticism from an individual Thai crew member would be based on probably one flight , ONE FLIGHT with QFUK based crew - which is hardly fair. The job is not difficult and most of the crew being recrutied from the UK have worked for other airlines ( not counting those already with QF UK who are from Qantas in Australia)- so it is just a matter of learning the service flow and procedures - it will all fall into place. I agree that Qantas has a lot to answer for in relation to the rushed training the crew received - especially in first and business class where customers pay a fortune for seats - though before criticising the staff members who are doing their best in a bad situation - look at the bigger picture and who is really to blame. It is not fair for the Thai crew to be running to the Sydney crew complaining about the London crew after being exposed to only one flight or 2 flights with London crew - that would be the same as criticising the brand new Thai crew for their mistakes on their first flight and running to everyone at Qantas saying that the Thai crew are absolutely hopeless. Very soon this thread will become a non-issue because the Qantas London based crew will become completely versed in the service flow and it will be difficult to criticise - unless one has a personal grudge against the London base. The London crew are an exceptional group of people who are doing their best to provide customers the service they expect - though it could prove a more difficult task without the PROPER support of their colleagues.

[Captain.Q]

The circumstances under which the LHR base was created have a lot to do with the negative attitude towards it.Some of the smugness displayed by some of the crew relocating didn't help.(Q Tee in particular)The negativity will only grow exponentially if posts such as Jasmins continue.He/she is entitled to his/ her opinion but denigrating the Thai flight attendants won't help.The obscene haste in which the base was established and the lack of experience meant that the base was going to be a shambles for a long time to come.If it continues it may well be QFs undoing in the UK and ultimately have a resoundingly negative effect on the brand generally.I can only hope that a major emergency doesn't occur on an aircraft with crew that have so little experience.
ALL the crew are ex Qantas long and shorthaul?I don' t think so.There are a good percentage of the LHR based crew who are locally employed and who have little or no experience of a longhaul operation.
Travelling to Australia from the UK?...do your self a favour ..fly with any one but Qantas.Well at least for the next two years.

[flying_pmm]

I'm a little confused....how did this thread turn into a tirade against the Thai crew?

[jasmin]

Captain Q- if you do work for Qantas, you certainly shouldn't , especially making comments to suggest passengers fly other airlines other than Qantas - think about that comment and see how silly it sounded - no passengers means no jobs - there's the answer for you.

If you re-read my comments in relation to the Thai crew, I stated they are " INCREDIBLY efficient and a wonderful source of guidance" - I wasn't denigrating the Thai crew - although so it seems they have been denigrating the QFUK based crew ( see Jettlagers post in relation to this : " The word from the THAIS so far is that the operation from the passengers point of view is a complete disaster" ( even though passenger opinion and surveys show otherwise)and Jetlagers 2nd post in relation to the Thai crews BOWING to Sydney crews they were so pleased not to be flying with UK based crew - what an insult to UK based crew).

To correct you Captain Q ( yet again) those currently flying with QFUK - ARE IN FACT ALL LONG HAUL AND SHORT HAUL QANTAS CREW FROM AUSTRALIA - the new recruits don't start until next week ( many with previous flying experience).

Medical emergencies on board ??? QF Long and Short Haul crew are trained in Australia and been with the QF group for years. The first aid and inflight medical training is the same for Long and Short Haul - do you, Captain Q think that all of the UK crew just came down in the last shower and woke up in London? Come on Captain Q.

As for Long Haul being different from Short Haul , I'm sorry , been there, done that and doing it again..... the length of the flight is really the only major difference - the basics of the job are virtually the same- Captain Q- it's just a plane mate - not the White House. Long to Short and Short to Long is a VERY simple conversion in all aspects....... I think some of you out there just have tickets.

Oh, another thing. Unless you are actually based in London and experienced the base first hand - maybe your comments ( and anyone elses out there in relation to the London base) are just a little bit untimely and lack all form of substance.

[Alex.c]

you keep banging on about people. if your one of the crew i would hate to work with you. u sound boulshy and arrogant everybody is entitled to their own points of view. if Captain Q wants to say things let him. My best friend is working for them at the minute and she is hating it. the friendly back stabbing australian smile. do u not think its a bit strange how many oz crew are coming over. my mate thinks they will all be laid off after the 6months as qf had to open the position to all and everyone but as the adverts say come on board and experience the friendly australian smile. read that again oz smile no english in there. qf bosses need to realise that crew cannot just be walked over. they will all be screwed if the crew didnt turn up. qf are trying to be the worlds number 1 they will never get that status.

qf = Qantas Fu-- Up as usual.

[keeperboy]

Sorry to get involved in all this as I don't work for QF. I'm an aussie that has been living in London for 9 years and I have really fond memories of QF. So much so that I actually considered leaving BA to join QF @ LHR, but when I got a job offer and seen the salary details and terms and conditions no way! What has happened at QF? I usually fly home to SYD via NRT with BA/QF on stand-by and find QF brilliant on that route. I haven't experienced QF direct LHR-SYD but my sis (who is SYD based crew with QF) says QF has been a bit of a shambles, particularly on the european routes for a while now.

My question is this though. When was the last time QF actually employed permanent mainline crews (long or short-haul). Do they still do it? Or is it now all dodgy contracts? Why has your union got nowehere in halting these foreign bases or at least making them mainline bases with decent terms and conditions? Why did the strike that was threatened never happen? Is it because over the years you have slowly got so many temps/casual/foreign based crews that the QF operation could be maintained even if the oz based permanent crews did strike? Or did the union just lay down and take it?

Just curious...

[Captain.Q]

1.I didn't say anything about medical emergencies but rather alluding to a situation a la Bangkok.
2.I said nothing regarding differences between short and longhaul
3.The time lag between customers filling out surveys and the results correlated is 6 weeks.Most surveys would relate to flights prior to the LHR base.Also there is still one flight a day operated by Sydney based crew.
Reread my post without the emotional goggles.

[jasmin]

Thanks Captain Q.

1. I stand corrected re. my mentioning the medical emergency - you were referring to an aircraft emergency ( a la Bangkok )- all crew are trained the same in relation to Aircraft Emergencies - and unless crew are trained in an aircraft that is made to deliberately crash to test trainees reactions - it is impossible to judge how one will react - nobody is able to be placed in a category higher than another in relation to their abilities in an emergency - no amount of flying experience will prepare oneself unless you are in an emergency every week- and from what I recall , the crews responses in Bangkok and also Sydney gate evacuation wasn't perfect at all.

2. My comments re. Long/Short haul - I was referring to stephenj's comments 16th March re. short haul crew operating long haul flights etc. My apologies.

3. The time lag for surveys may be 6 weeks - though when you are handing the surveys out to customers and collecting them again- you have the opportunity to see what feedback has been given- so contrary to other's comments, there have been many satisfied customers in all classes who have flown with QF London based crew.

4. At this stage though the Australian based crew have more than one flight a day into London - it will not be until the entire complement of London based crew are available that the Australian crew will be limited to one flight per day.

I sure hope everything settles down - as I mentioned in my original comments - Qantas management has a hell of a lot to answer for - no London crew can be blamed personally for any problems that occur.

[DEFCON4]

The customers on your flight may have been generally happy.Overall so far it ain't good.Wait till the jetlag/fatigue begins to accumulate..the service quality will decline ,the complaining will escalate and crew cohesion will suffer.Its all downhill from here.What will you do at the end of your two years?There may be nothing left for you in OZ.The decision you made probably wasn't a good one.
The LHR Base is about as popular as a fart in an elevator.

[flightie]

captain q

i am one of the "little or no experience" uk recruits. will 6 years experience not only on the jumbo, but other a/c types, plus long haul in a full service airline do for you? there are a handful of non flyers on all the courses that are running at the moment, however, by far the majority have plenty of experience and some even, shock horror, on jumbos. wind your neck in and give everyone a fair chance. ive never heard such a load of rubbish.:bored:

[DEFCON4]

So from most reports why is it such a mess?
Why did you leave the other airlines?
Things must have been somewhat dire if you choose to fly with this lot.Do you understand the background to the LHR base?If not bring yourself up to speed...the Base is the precursor to other bases all of which have a negative impact on our income and our lives.There are a lot of others apart from me who would like to see the LHR base fall on its rear.

[jettlager]

Hi flighty,

so are you saying that the comments and behaviour of the Thais together with feedback from LHR based groundstaff and passengers ex BKK is all rubbish????
QFUK fa's who are friendly with other 11 month contactors indicate its a shambles.

I nearly fell over with laughter when I heard the defence given by one of the LHR DAMS................

"Well the planes ARE taking off !!!???? ".

We all know that it is a disaster and set to remain so given that the brand new UK nationals come on line next week.

For me the biggest and most telling failure so far is not the new levels of gross QF management incompetence, as this was a "given" but rather the unwillingness of those in charge on board to defer to the Thais given that they have overwhelmingly, ALL the longhaul experience.

This indicates not just very poor judgement but I suspect also speaks volumes of the "culture" pervading this operation.

Good onboard managers know that the success of their operation is really VERY simple.
Happy people.

Just how you get there is an art, not a science.
You wont find the answers looking in the proceedures manual.

Carry On.

Jettlager

[flightie]

my post was referring to the general negativity towards uk recruits. i was made redundant hence, new job. got some ok experience and aim to put it to good use. thats all. not talking about anything or anyone else, just my own situation, and im happy with that.

[LOTflyer]

Hi Guys,

As I am new to this forum , first of all I would like to say hello to everybody. Currently my airline reduced cabin crew number....and I am one of them. I am thinking about QF LHR Base, so any chance for contract...numbers....and some terms....rosters...ID commuting etc.?Please...

[jettlager]

Lotflyer,

welcome.
Rumour has it that most of the applicants for QFUK were from Eastern European countries.

The new Spirit of Australia I suppose.
You'll fit right in.

Cheers Jettlager

[MzGuilty]

Jetlagger, you mention "spirit of Australia", but all I can see from the Australians on here is nothing but whingeing and negativity. I have nothing to do with QFUK, and personally couldn't care less whether it works or not, but for heaven's sake give the guys a chance. When new crew come online it's always difficult and slow work for a while, but they soon get up to speed. It isn't rocket science.

I've worked long and short haul, charter and scheduled, and without doubt the easiest work of all is long haul scheduled. The UK based crew aren't even online yet, and already you are criticising them and saying they are rubbish.

Jetlagger, LOTflyer asked a polite question and you replied sarcastically about most applicants being from the eastern block and that (s)he'll fit right in. Rather that than fitting in with the whingeing, complaining Aussies on this forum.

It all boils down to money and the Australian QF crew losing out financially because of the new LHR base.

Good luck to all the UK based crew. :ok:

[surfside6]

The whole LHR base issue is a lot more about hypocrisy and deceit(lots of it from management)truth.credibility ethics,morality...totally none from management.
Do you think for one minute that the company that screwed us will treat you any differently?Wake up and smell the roses.If the base doesn't work out, you will be back on the street quicker than you can say redundancy.The UK base is about cheap labour.....nothing more.
The greatest threat to Qantas service is Qantas management.They don't give a rats rissole.The share price languishes in a 10 cent band ($3.50/$3.60)because the market is aware of the shambles,
Dixon doesn't see it as a service industry..to him and the clowns on the board it is a trough and transport.(TnT)
"Spirit of Australia"..My Sweet Aunt Fanny!!!

[jettlager]

Interesting that during the QF "spin doctoring" prior to startup management were advising that ONLY under exceptional circumstances would rosters be built up to company max, 240 hours.

Well I suppose the first roster IS exceptional?????

[Butterfield8]

Where is the Smug Madame Q Tee Now?

[Galley Guru]

Oh, how miss informed we all are. Jetlagger, you should have seen my first roster! 168 hours. Oh and the second 176. Not to mention the flying which is point to point and mainly night sectors ie. supper and breakfast - how easy. Try to get 240 with a mpg that we have and you will be pushed. By the way have you seen what qantas can work you to back home? - but they dont.
The time off gives us all enough time to travel to the most amazing destinations which are only a few hours away - and cheap, I just had 7 days off and went to Spain!. All in all its a great base to work in and a great place to live. This I say with confidence with my years of long haul flying experience ex-syd. :ok:

[jettlager]

galley guru,

where do we start?????
I wouldnt be crowing too loud about your roster as the filth running QF might just hear you.

My guess is that "they" won't be in position to ramp up the efficiency of the base until more flights come on line.
Do you know a fellow by the name of Clinton??? He is one of the 11 month contractors FORCED to move to LHR in order to obtain a full time job.

I do, and his roster is 240 hours. Dont worry, your time will come.

What IS the story with the culture of the crew up there????????????
The Thais HATE [their words, not mine] flying with you lot. Something to do with an unwillingness/inability to work and not just incompetence I believe.
Where in "the book" does it say that the cart exchange is a "Thai only" operation??????????

An "incident" of late where both R4a and L4a worked in J/C for breakfast whilst the CSS stood in the back galley making tea and coffee effectively leaving just the Thais to do the whole Y/C service.
No wonder they are not happy.
Complaints to the CSM falling on deaf ears as the whole arrangement was cooked up by the ex domestic on board managers.

Tell me its not true that breakfast was forgotten to be done into BKK the other day????!!!!!
Where in the PA book is the explanation for that cock up?

An interesting "spin off" from the LHR base is that it has driven the SYD base and Thai crew together as never before. Sure, we have always got along well but recent events it seems have demonstrated [to the Thais at least] the efforts the SYD based crew routinely make.

LHR based ground staff commenting, "Gee, they're a miserable lot". One, with years of airline experience going so far as saying that one crew in particular were the rudest people they had ever met.

Overall it seems that things are SO bad that EVEN QF mis-management have noticed!!!!!!!!!
Care to comment on the rumoured rescue mission from SYD. We hear that "Sherpas", in the form of experienced SYD based crew will be sent up to LHR to try and minimise the damage to OUR reputation??????

The problems with the LHR base are cultural and far deeper than just inexperience. Given the attitude and behaviour of the crew paxing up there in first class those problems are set to continue for a LONG, LONG time.

Bring on the daylight services I say....................


Jettlager :ok:

[Galley Guru]

Jetlagger
Gossip and here say!


No matter how well it goes im sure you would find some ridiculous romour to whinge about.

How disgusting that you believe it has taken the Lhr base for the Thai and Syd crew to get along! You should have got along with them from the start.

Under performing crew are in every base, Some of the worst ive seen are out of Syd. Then you have the higher percentage of people that do a great job, some of the best ive flown with are out of syd. Got to ask, do you really think a entire crew 'forgot' to do the breakfast into BKK -come on.!

As for the rest of you vile accusations, Im not even going to comment. All gossip and here say.

Everyone has a choice. Qantas made it quite clear to us that the rosters could be built up to 240 hours from the start. We agreed to that when we signed he contract! If you wernt prepared to do those hours dont sign.

No one is forced to do anything. The contract staff knew that their time flying was for an 11 month contract when they signed 11 months ago. They didnt have to come here, no one was forced to do anything. They could have gone back to their pre-flying qf job, which effectiely they agreed to when they initially signed their 11 month contract. Being offered 2 years in London and a permanent package for flying when they get home is an absolute bonus and congrats to them!.

Finally jetlagger, you do seem to spend alot of time and energy worrying about our conditions, mate it doesnt effect you so leave the undue worrying to us. :ok:

[jettlager]

Good morning galley guru,

it is morning in the UK isn't it?

SYD and Thai crew have always got on and if you ARE SYD base you would know so.
The LHR base has however given cause for the Thais to see us in a different light.
All that have flown with them since the LHR start up say so.
Lets be clear. What is happening with you and your lot Ex LHR is the cause for this new found respect.

Underperformers, granted are in all bases however they are traditionally the [rare] exeption and not it seems as is the case in LHR, the norm.

If there weren't SERIOUS problems in your part of the world with the operation then why is it that "sherpas" are rumoured to be [at great expense] on the way?
Tell us it isn't happening will you please so that we can all sleep at night without worry.
I'm a shareholder after all.

As for gossip and rumour...................?
A mate who took over the 2 EX BKK the other day knew the inbound LHR based EX LONGHAUL CSM.
He said 4 words as he walked off the A/C shaking his head..............."this crew is f*cked".

I'm impressed with the spin you have put on the deal offered to the contract crew. It could [did?] have come straight out of QCC.

The fact of the matter is that the LHR base has no shortage of people in it who's only reason for being there is the promise of what should be in this country [and until recently was] a given.
A FULL TIME JOB.
The vast majority of these people after all were external applicants and had NO jobs to return to.

Lets be clear here.
The LHR base was set up for one reason only.
As a tool to transfer money from the pockets of cabin crew into those of senior executives via their performanced based pay.

In doing so sadly it seems our reputation as a quality airline is going to be the first and most serious casualty.

Who at the executive level is going to be held responsible for this FCUK up?
No one. They are too busy counting the zeros in their pay packets. They'll have long gone, leaving the airline a shell.

Jettlager

P.S. I couldnt give a rats about your conditions and where the hell is qtee??

[Galley Guru]

Let it go Jet lagger, your flogging a dead horse. Ofcourse the base was set up to save money. Why else would they, so I can live in a different country for the hell of it? Move on :ok:

[jettlager]

Come on galley guru.
You still have not answered my question.

Are "qf mismanagement" sending SYD based "sherpas" to LHR to try and fix what is obviously a complete and utter f*ck up?

Since you addressed your original post to me surely the least you could do would be to answer just a little question????????

Jettlager

[LOTflyer]

Hi sky fellows!,

Despite the hot atmosphere about QF LHR base is there any chance to get some info about LHR crews number of days off, bidding system, number of crew on every flight,ID tickets and number of trips a monts etc. I would really love to know how does your working environment look like?Please don't kill me for just asking. Greets from sunny Poland.

LOTflyer

[Galley Guru]

Jet Lagger,

In response to your question. We had sherpas from the inception of the base. And they were a useful resource for those who were new to Bfirst. Do you recall when the Skybed was launched and the new Business class service commenced where we began to sauce and garnish entree's in the cabin, not massive changes. Remember there were sherpas on every flight for almost the entire bid period across most of the long haul network.

The sherpas where in London for 4 weeks. Now the next wave a ex-aus crew come on line along with the new recruits who have been trained so perhaps you are right that sherpas will be back for this period of time. Watch this space they may be bought back for the 3rd wave too, and so what if they are. Im sure they will again be a great resource to those crew who are new in the role.

You talk of the waste in money to do this (great expense in your words)... im sure the savings of having the base in london will more than offset the cost of a having a few sherpas. :ok:

[flapsforty]

For the benefit of this non-Aussie reader; what do you guys mean with this 'sherpa' business? Would they be something similar to the 'sweepers' we used to employ to try and keep the toilets clean between Karachi and Singapore, or..... :confused: ... :confused:
Thanks.

[surfside6]

"Sherpas" are essentially onboard trainers.They are Cabin Crew(with experience)who are onboard to bring the service standard up to speed.They are there because the experience level and training are poor.They are not hands on but rather a guide(hence the name Sherpa)for the operating crew as far as procedures and standards are concerned.
A better name would be trouble shooters

[q--tee]

oh jetlagger, you funny little thing ....

on another thread youre saying that we as qantas group cabin crew should be stickin together against the 'evil-that-is-qantas-management' .... yet on this one you are out and out baggin qantas cabin crew who work for a subsidiary of QF in the UK .... reminder the thai crew dont work for QF or a subdisiary .... yet you seem to hold them in much higher esteem than those of us who are actually QF crew working for a wholly owned subsidiary, and most of us just on leave without pay from the 'mothership' ... the first locally based crew started yesterday, so all your 'digs' so far are at mainline QF crew who are on leave without pay!

I could answer everything you have said about the LHR crew with actual facts, but cant be bothered .... it means nothing ...

But I am curious ....

life is personal reality ...

you (obiously) hate the company and management so much, it seems to be an obsession with you ... why on earth would you want to work for a company that you hate so much? :confused:

It seriously intrigues me .... if I hated the people/ company I was working for so much, I wouldnt be working for them .... simple as that. So what is the issue? you cant stand the company, why bother staying? your whinging wont change anything, the path is well and truly set with Qantas ( whether I agree with it or not - and a lot I actually dont!) if you hate it so much why stay?

You will find the majority of crew who came over here arent so 'affected' by what moves the company make ... we understand the simple employment philosophy .... they give us money for performing certain tasks, we do those tasks ... we get money .... its as simple as that.... you seriously need to get a life luv
:p


Oh and as a postscipt .... I am having a ball over here, the crew are great, the most enthusiastic I have seen for tens of years .... yes luv, maybe the procedures arent down pat yet ... a lot of crew are new to their positions ...but the enthusiasm and friendliness are second to none .... and the Thai crew are either lying to you or me ...dont really care which ... to me they have said they love flying with us ...

oh and still havent got a block past 198 hrs ... if the 240 comes then so be it ... but I havent seen it as yet ... but I happily signed up for those hours so wont complain if they arrive ...
the benefit for me is livin in a place I could have never worked in before, and get my job when i get home ..... I am as happy as a piggy in poo
;)

[Butterfield8]

You are not in LHR but rather in Sydney and operate on this forum as part of the spin team.So give us all a break!!!

[jettlager]

Morning qtee.
It is morning in Sydney isn't it???

My "beef" is not with QF but rather those who are running it into the ground.
Your response to these issues is EXACTLY the standard QF management response- "if you dont like it leave".
I wonder why...........?

You seem confused by my attitute and feelings toward QF management............?

Have we forgotten the "Hewitt" survey?

For those who dont know. QF has reciently spent millions tasking an outside organisation to measure the level of "engagement" that staff have with the business.
They report that they had NEVER seen a result like QF's in their whole 20 year history.

Engagement levels "critical" with 78% of the QF workforce surveyed completely "disengaged."
My attitude as measured by "Hewitt" [at great expense] is the norm at QF and you my friend KNOW IT.

They have reported at board level that if QF think they are doing well now with $1 billion AUD record profits, the results achievable with an engaged workforce would be.................unlimited.

The conditions of ALL OPERATIONAL employees are under attack as never before and for Longhaul crew the LHR base is just one example.

The executive level in this company pay themselves MASSIVE bonuses for taking money out of OUR pockets whilst crying poor mouth at every opportunity.
The hypocracy sickens those of us whose contributions are treated with such CONTEMPT.

Do QF management have any creative strategy for business success beyond slashing conditions from it's employees.............?

No.

Pilots, Cabin Crew, Cleaners, Engineers, Groundstaff, Catering, Ramp, Baggage Handlers etc, etc are ALL under attack and yet these groups are the ones largely responsible for OUR success.

Your argument shows you as nothing more than a lapdog to these executive filth. Do they flick you scraps from their table as thanks? No? Happy with a pathetic little tummy rub are you?

More RECORD profits this year qtee??

Not if we were performing network wide, to the level of the LHR base.

The cat is well and truly out of the bag re the LHR operation qtee so denying the reality really only makes you and your spin team look foolish.

Is ANYONE at the executive level going to be held responsible for the disaster?
No because operational employees are the only people accountable in this organisation.

New UK recruits coming on line are they??
Daylight sectors?
Bring it on...............

P.S. Say hello to dick more ass AKA fat boy slim for me will you. I can't for the life of me think of an individual more unsuitable for trying to build a happy cohesive and healthy CC culture.

[jb_flyer]

OK, this is a risk coming out ito the firing line, when all instinct tells me to crouch lower in my trench...

My issue with the base is not driven only by the erosion of conditions. My opinion on that issue does not hold much weight, as I am not a Flight Attendant.

My opinion, and this post, comes from a different perspective, that of the wannabe. I know this issue is serious for all current crew, and I do not wish this post to detract from their concerns in any way.

With the number of crew based overseas, in London, NZ and Bangkok, there is increasingly smaller amounts of work being avaliable to people in Australia who want to work here, without moving. There has been numourous comments from UK nationals saying that we should get over it, and I would like to take issue with that. There are many more oppurtunities in the UK/ Europe to work as cabin crew, (yes some are contract or seasonal work, but the number of carriers with London based positions especially...) then we have here in Australia. OK my home town of Perth is not crawling with oppurtunities, but I am willing to move east to where the concentrations are.

So this airline, "The Spirit of Australia" is employing increasing amounts of overseas based crews, in what has been acknowledged as cost cutting. Now remembering that Qantas is not in dire financial troubles, indeed it is one of the most profitable airlines in the world. Qantas is not in a position like many US carriers who are battling bankruptcy, they are in a strong financial position, and enjoy an effective monopoly on their highest grossing routes. (So much for no Government help or handouts hey!)

So I will reserve my opinion of the effect this is having on crews, on conditions and service standards, rosters etc, as I would just be repeating heresay, but I am finding it very difficult to find gainful employment with the Qantas group, and so are many other wannabes. Imagine if the 400 odd crew based overseas were Australian based, many many more oppurtunities.

JB

(ducks back down in the trench, riot shield at the ready)

[jettlager]

No arguement from me jb_flyer.

The overseas bases effectively prevent hundreds and hundreds of Australians an opportunity to fly for "The Spirit of Australia".

Take care, goodluck and thanks for the PM.

Jettlager

[GalleyHag]

jb_flyer

I agree with you 100% and sadly things are about to get a whole lot worse for Australian wannabe cabin crew when it comes to Qantas.

The short haul EBA expires this year and according to an FAAA rep Qantas are asking that a clause be inserted stating that there be NO requirement for permanent employment within the short haul division. No-one really knows how or if this will work but this is just one of the ideas put forward by the company. Currently there is an "alleged" ratio, this is what they want to get rid of, the requirement under this ratio to retain a certain percentage of permanent crew against casual.

It always amazes me when Dixon states Qantas has grown and created 7500 jobs over x number of years but less than 1% of those 7500 would be permanent. What sort of life is contract/casual? But sadly thats it according to Qantas take it or leave it.

I know this is a bit off track but nothing sh*ts me more than knowing hundreds upon hundreds of off-shore permanent cabin crew jobs are available with our national carrier but not 1 permanent job has been offered to wannabe crew based in Australia for many, many years.

But if you hold an EU passport no worries mate!

[jettlager]

Reports indicate that Neil Perry and his Rockpool group have and are expressing serious concerns about the damage being done to their operation with the recent LHR base opening.

As partners in the service and food provided in our "premium cabins" the recognise the very real possibility of lasting damage to THEIR brand.

Compaints are flooding into the frequent flyer department and now its seems the Rockpool group itself.

One poor operator cooked ALL the meals in P/C after take off leaving NOTHING left for the rest of the 12 hour sector which demonstrates that even the basics are failing.
One can only imagine how the finer details of our First and Business class service are panning out.

All of the undeniable difficulties EX LHR where of course entirely avoidable with the proper training and support but as has been pointed out before, money is the king at QF.

Those traveling to LHR as "sherpas" have been given strict instructions NOT to divulge details of the fiasco but denial is impossible with the volume of complaints streaming in.

Denial at managment level is still the order of the day with the "whirling dervish" AKA kylie looking resplendent in his "brand new clothes".

Contrast if you will the concern Neil Perry has with the damage done to HIS company's reputation.
Business us usual at Qantas where it continues to be ALL about money.................
geoff dixon's money.

More updates later.

Jettlager

P.S. Rumour has it that more than a few of the "second wave" are dropping out on reports that all is not well in old blighty.

[DEFCON4]

It would appear that this foolishness is to be visited up on the unlucky souls of Germany.The trip to FRA has been trimmed down to 8 days and the bean counters are about to announce that the LHR crew will soon takeover this route as well.It was either this or pullout out of FRA all together.Apparently it was close but the cheapness of the LHR crew won the day.
I still call Australia......what was it again?

[GalleyHag]

It seems like so much flying for long haul is just disappearing. But you have to love Qantas they have thrown some domestic flying to the Melbourne long haul base but wait there's more you now have to pay for your own hotel room. If it wasnt so serious all this would be too funny.

From www.faaa.net

8 April 2005

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants

Planning & Scheduling Update BP238

Downsizing of Perth Long Haul Base & the Base Transfer List
The downsizing of the Perth base has continued for BP238 with transfers out of Perth being actioned. This round of transfer is driven by the need to downsize Perth rather than as a result of vacancies in the other bases. Crew from bases other than Perth with their name on the voluntary base transfer list will only have their request satisfied if it can be reciprocated by another crew member transferring out of the base that crew want to transfer into.

Increase in flying by overseas based crew
More notable changes for BP238 include:

• The final phase of LHR base will be completed with the LHR base operating all flights out of LHR except for the QF1 & QF2. This flight will have 4 BKK based crew. The QF9 & QF10 will be the 1 pattern per day guaranteed to Australian based crew.

• AKL based crew will make up the full complement of Economy cabin flight attendants in the AKL/LAX/AKL sectors and some SYD/LAX/SYD patterns.

• Mumbai and Shanghai patterns will have 2 AKL based crew.

• Jo'burg and HNL patterns will have 3 AKL based crew.

• FRA patterns will have 4 BKK based crew.

Increase in Airbus flying
• There will be 2 MEL/PER/MEL patterns per day for the MEL based crew and various domestic patterns out of SYD.

• A330 flying patterns to HKG from BNE, MEL and SYD will be operated by SYD Longhaul commencing July, week 7 of bid period 238.

Continual Inequity faced by Economy Cabin Flight Attendants

The Association has continued to re-iterate and request the Company, through the P & S Committee, to address the imbalance and inequity faced by economy cabin flight attendants caused partly by AKL and BKK based crew operating only in the A/C category. The Company has continued to ignore the concerns voiced by the Association on this issue, as this issue has minimal to no impact on their “resource planning” objectives. The Association will continue to pursue avenues for this unfairness to be addressed.

Mumbai Issues
The Association listed this issue with the Australian Industrial Relations Commission in February. The issue was heard in conference before the Commission on 1 March 2005. The Commissioner made some recommendations for the parties to consider and could arbitrate on the matter if a compromise is not reached.

Following the Commissioner's recommendations, the Association is still waiting on a reply from the Company, which has indicated that there will be an answer by mid-April. We will keep you informed of developments.

Ad hoc inconsistencies with Operations
Recently, there's been an increase of anecdotal reports from members on questionable discretionary decisions by Operations/Schedulers. They have ranged from requiring crew to purchase their own hotel accommodation to the denial of duty hour re-calculation after a diversion.

When dealing with Schedulers, crew should always note the name of the officer and report any irregularities to your Planning & Scheduling Committee members from the Association.

[peanut pusher]

We'll it goes a little like this.

The first six weeks have been very interesting to say the least.

I thought I would put some acuate facts down as I can't sit bye and let rubbish stand in the way of truth.

True, first two weeks seen many teething problems with a great number of ex s/h crewing finding there feet on a new service and equipment. But they now have there confidence and are skilled up to a high standard. Remember your first day, we'll times it by 10 and you had 10 new people onboard for the first time, all on the same flight. It didn't take long and they know what they are doing now.

False, No roster in the base has been built to 230 hrs, no f/a or csm has worked more than 181 hrs. the average build will be 178 hrs for the next 6 months. nb. you must have 3 days stand down between patterns. (I read through every roster and reserve line completed since day one to check on this one)

True, it's a great place with young crew to work, average age would be around 23.
Other facts are
Wave 2 is experianced L/H crew and new uk starters
The base is 81% female
Of the uk crew, 30% are Australian born and using there uk family passport.

Thai crew, I thought I would make comment on this issue.
Thai crew were great to work with during the first 2 weeks as they helped out greatly. There was a few teething problems and they helped me out greatly.
Jetlagger, please give it up, you are fighting a loosing battle, just look at your comments before the last FAAA ballot for the EBA. You made a fool of yourself then, I can still find your post with the words the no vote is gaining momentom and the EBA is not going to get in.
Thai crew report to LHR base crew that SYD crew are obsest with whats going on, tell us all you know on every trip.
Thai crew remember the reception thay got for the first year, remember the tele tubbie names and stories of go go girls and ping pong balls etc. I remember the crap Thai crew copped was 10 x what your trying to stir up.
Most Thai crew know what it was like to be be new especially onboard with a whole lot of new crew so they have been very supportive. So please don't say in your posts the the SYD and BKK bases have always got on because that is so far fromthe truth.

Things I like, (my personal opion)
* great manager
* crews consist of mostly young happy people with great attitudes. They help and support each other
* The flying is great, work 3 days have 4 off
* Crew come to work in there proper uniform and don't modify it and look great, (not like a bunch of 50 plus old men at hand overs, pax often comment on the age and presentation of the SYD crew to LHR crew, last week a P class passanger asked me what happened in BKK with the crew average age dropping by 30 years) I had to laugh and say botox
* Every crew member wants to be there and it's a great family atmosphere
* Travel to Europe during my days off
* Helping young people find there dream job and flying for a great airline
*Being away from neagative w_nkers who think that the world will never change and they are on the same level as brain surgeons.


Things I don't like
*Being away from my family for so long
*The NRL weekend games
*Being so far from the greatest country in the world
*Poor hand overs from Aus crew but we don't make a big deal of it and should
*Lies told to pax to try and cause problems on next sector, like the crew getting on have never flown before and are lowly paid with little emergency training


Just my opion and thoughts, in 6 months it will be a well oiled machine running just a smoothly as any other great base in the network.

Regards

[ferris]

Interesting to hear the other side.Being away from neagative w_nkers who think that the world will never change and they are on the same level as brain surgeons What does one call someone pleased with their efforts at assisting managers line their pockets by screwing their employees? A positive w_nker? Hope you are sharing in the 30 pieces of silver.

The world changes. What it changes into, and how it changes, are choices. Proud of your choice?

[jettlager]

Hello peanut pusher.
Congratulations on the promotion.........?
Did you move the the UK to get the CSMs coat?
Fourth floor????

Anyway............Your report about how fabulous the operation is flies in the face of reports from those directly in contact with it and with those fielding the many complaints.

The LHR base represents to Australian based crew a not inconsiderable loss of pay and conditions.

It also is the vehicle that at present prevents hundreds and hundreds of OTHER Australian residents the oportunity to fly for the nations flag carrier.
The base DENIES AUSTRALIANS the same opportunity afforded you and I.

The fact that you support it for you own ends is your own business.

It represents to SYD based crew however the largest attack yet on our conditions and is lining the pockets of senior executives at cabin crew's expense.

Myself and the hundreds of others who have operated the flagship Kangaroo route for years have arguably provided the highest standards of service in our network.

Does the word "ownership" ring a bell?
It was beaten into us as a concept for service excellence from a sadly departed management team that CONSIDERED US, A PART OF THE BUSINESS.
The London base is a vehicle set up by a management team that CLEARLY does not.

None of us in SYD are happy that our company's reputation for excellence on the route is being sold in exchange for ever increasing executive bonuses and if you take the critisism and exposure of the service failures personally, thats unfortunate.

I'd purposely chosen not to mention "age" and the fact that QFUK is well short on "life experience" as I find ageism distastful, pathetic and rather sad.

However you started it. Good judgement in stressful conditions requires maturity and life experience by the bucket load.

Enthusiasm for ones work is not age specific and the 50 year olds I am privileged to fly with invariably have the skills, pride in their work, life experience and maturity to have our passengers eating out of their hands.

Our passengers are a captive audience for 14 hours at a stretch.
How and at what level is a 22 year old going to relate to and converse with, a 60 year CEO?
Eye candy I suppose but isn't that more appropriate for "Hooters".

Nothing wrong with youth OR experience.

QF needs both in balance. As a cabin crew "community" your base is seriously unbalanced, by your own admission.

Lyn Stanbridge knew this and sadly those now running QF DONT CARE.
THEY JUST WANT CHEAP and sadly our once proud airline is suffering.

Back to ageism.
As a CSM, who do look to for support in a crises, be it medical, security or whatever?
The 22 year old bit of fluff straight out of school.
Good luck.

I'll tell you who I look to. The 50 year old salt and peper haired bloke who has been flying 25 years. He knows what a passenger is going to say or do before they do, can pick his mark, has a cool head and has seen EVERYTHING.

The problems being experienced with LHR are exactly that. The 50 year old ex Senior, ex Air chef, ex Chief. You dont have ENOUGH of them.

Handovers???????
You have GOT to be kidding?
You may be Ex longhaul and have some semblance of what one is but I can assure you your [ex domestic ?] collegues dont.

Perhaps things will in time improve for you and your operation but my guess is it is going to take years.

I personally look foward to a massive regime change at QF that may see a CEO taking a LONGTERM approach to "The Spirit Of Australia's" success rather than the "Chainsaw Dunlop" method we are enduring.
We are 10 years or so behind management trends in the US after all.
Why, they might even close the whole nonsense down.

Jettlager

Congratulations, any truth to the rumour you guys have taken our FRA trips?

I get the message peanut pusher.
It's ALL good, right








:ok: :ok:

[maxy101]

How and at what level is a 22 year old going to relate to and converse with, a 60 year CEO?
How does someone that has worked on board an aircraft doing CC related things going to relate to a CEO whatever their age?
Lets not kid ourselves here, the pax pay to get from A to B safely. I doubt that they are looking to get share tips or company advice from the First Class purser.

[DEFCON4]

Age has never been an issue on the LHR routes.Having a brother in LHR I did them back to back for years.The crews were always a mixture..gay/straisght,young/old,male/female,some fresh out of training school and some who had been flying for years.
So Peanut Pusher I think you are telling Porkies.
Why would the Company give you access to everyone's roster?
What about privacy issues?
Why would you need to see everone's roster?.
A little less spin and a bit more truth.
If everything is so wonderful why do you need Sherpas?
I have taken over some of these southbound aircraft and the pax comments have varied from not bad to woeful.I have yet to hear "consistently outstanding".
The LHR base is never going to be popular because of what it represents..an enormous erosion of our conditions.
The very reason it exists at all is to save money...nothing else.
Lets see what they do with you in two years time.Lets hope its not tears before bedtime.

[DEFCON4]

My wife and I are both Buddhists.
I will spell GWandwanaland however I like ...I live here You Don't.
The way our investment portfolio is shaping up I won't need the waitering(?)waiting job,but thanks for the suggestion,most thoughtful of you.

[jettlager]

Gday scrubbed,

"I think this LHR gig is a good thing. Look at how happy people are with it. Them and the Thais. "

This statement indicates that you really don't have ANY idea what you are talking about.

Cheers,

Jettlager

:ok:

[peanut pusher]

Just to clear up a few details for the uninformed

*There is a copy of rosters like in every s/h base in Aus for people wanting to swap etc as there was only 80 crew for the first 6 weeks it wasn't hard for every body to print the crew rosters and make a swap book and even a swap website.

*The UK GM has recieved 28 complimentory letters from passangers in the first 5 weeks, don't know as of today

*We have a great sprinkling of experianced crew including the qantas number 1 seniority, (40 years next week) who fit in perfectly with our very junior crew

*To be truthful I wish we never had a LHR base but we do and if Aus crew didn't staff it it would be 100 % British nationals.
So I have to work with what I have, and I have family in the UK and a business in Thailand so I didn't have any choice

*There has been many delibrate attempts to sabotage hand overs, no cork screws onboard etc, dirty plates mixed with clean, lies to pax about crew backgrounds etc

*Most junior crew have been flying s/h for around 2.5 to 3 years and are not wet behind the ears in flying experiance.

*Sorry for the first hand overs as the ex s/h had never been trained out of SYD that the a/c is not stripped inc. oven liners like in s/h but they sure know now.

*If you want to point a finger, point it at the Ex FAAA who got out gunned and out smarted in the last EBA before the current one.
This is were our battle was lost and will be the beginning of the end as we know it.(I give myself 4 more years and the job will be broken down so badly that it won't be worth doing anymore)

*I understand the passion and why there are such strong feelings but unfortunately it's our bed from now on (read above passage for my scope)

*Lets keep it real and remember our pax are caught in the middle of it

Ferris
*Your an air traffic controller in the UAE looking for excitment in the crew forum, please this is something you know nothing about or are effected by.

*Why no comments further about Thai crew, jokes about captain here are the beers you ordered (on the flight deck at the top of decent), first 1 1/2 years Thai crew would not answer interphone and remember the captain who called R4 and asked do you see any smoke from the 3 engine, R4 no I don't smoke and hang up. They go on and on so Thai crew had a much harder transition than any LHR crew every will

Please no more personal stuff

[loudmouth]

From my point of view ( pointy end U/M ), having done two sectors now with London based Cabin Crews,they are going just fine. As you would expect they are not at the same standard as the Syd. based crews but hey, they are not very far off. They are extremely enthusiastic and because of this I think that in a relatively short time frame ( say a bid period or at the most two ) they will be offering a superior product. The only concern that I have is for their health if the Company starts to operate them on LHR/SIN/FRA/SIN/LHR patterns, as no doubt it will.

I wish them all the best.

[cabinfever]

Just out of curiosity...what are the f/a's earning at the LHR base?...Say weekly?...Including bringing back some of the allowances?
Is it hideous having to commute on the tube if u have no car?...or can u get the bus back with the Thais at the hotel and make ur own way there?

Hope someone can help

Cheers

[mach2male]

I agree with loudmouth.Once everthing settles down and QF starts tightening the rostering screws CC health will become a major issue together with fatigue.Once it is realised that QF don't care enthusiasm will be the first casualty.

[ferris]

*Your (sic) an air traffic controller in the UAE looking for excitment in the crew forum, please this is something you know nothing about or are effected by I know lots about it and am affected by it as I have close family flying. I am also interested in the general Industrial Relations principles and techniques being applied. How do you reconcile your incorrect statement about me with your plea "Please, no more personal stuff"? If you are embarrassed about selling out fellow Australians (or assisting in their sell out) for your 30 pieces of silver, then by all means argue your case- but don't bleat on here about "personal stuff".

I sleep very soundly at night. You?

[Defcon5]

I am "worked up "about the LHR Base because of the ethics and principals involved.It has no affect on my income whatsoever.Just who is better off with the base?The crew there receive less income,have no interactive rostering system,standown time is less and in time will be worked into the ground.The pax are certainly no better off.
The Qantas Brand is being damaged.The cost saving /annum is about the price of one engine on a 747.400.
I am glad my posts bring some joy into your obviously dreary life

[flapsforty]

For your information:
Scrubbed has disqualified him/herself from the thread by using personal attacks instead of arguing the facts.

[hugh grant]

just arrived on the second wave, and surf's up . yes it all looks good.
too funny about syd crew discovering BKK based crew as their new brothers in arms. last week a syd csm refused to take BKK crew on his bus because ' you work for another company, not qantas' too funny if it wasn't pathetic
the thais are working 12-13 day trips -3 days off - 243 hrs per roster. if syd crew so concerned for them perhaps they should get FAAA to improve their conditions so they are the same as syd. this was what warner & broome were attempting to do.
I remember all the racist jokes about BKK crew too. guess the syd wits better start thinking up some pommy ones.
one thing syd crew and poms have in common though is their ability to whinge.

[peanut pusher]

Ferris really, I thought your wife was ex L/H crew (Qantas) and that was the extent of your crew exposure. That was your PM to me two years ago. 30 pieces of silver not quite, didn't you move to the UAE to better yourself and you wouldn't be working in a country with poor human rights and segrigation of woman, gays etc. Sorry but keep it real, looking through all the other forums your a real expert in everything.

New Name Eddy the expert

[jettlager]

huge rant,

The same CSM who denied transport to the Thais also denied transport to the Tech crew travelling with them.

This was done in consultation with the Captain that was traveling with him as there wasn't enough room for eight extras on the bus nor there luggage.

The said CSM also made a call to the LHR base ops looking for a replacement crew member during that slip and was TOLD don't be calling us as we don't work for the same company.

"Pathetic", no?

Jettlager

[Flugbegleiter]

This thread has been a very interesting read although, I think it would be better to stop the *personal* attacks against each other.

I personally have nothing against any individuals in the LHR base, however, I disagree with there being a London base. Since there is, though, it may as well be crewed by Aussies who want to take the opportunity to live in London.

Before the current EBA was approved, I was totally against a London base, and back then I definitely had a problem with people applying for it. But it is too late now. It's done. Another nail in the coffin for Australian based crew. And for all I care, London can go on to become a better base than Sydney, because I personally no longer strive to provide "exceptional" customer service, or go out of my way for anyone. Like this company, I now only think about my own bottom line and I do what suits me.

I used to be very positive, happy with my job and lifestyle, despite constant change and challenges. But I really don't give a sh*t anymore. I guess I'm "disengaged". I still enjoy flying and am desperately trying to hold onto the lifestyle I enjoy, but unfortunately QF is the only international airline based in Oz, so for as long as I want to keep doing this, I have no alternative but to stay.

If you have taken the London base for your own reasons, then that's fine. Good for you. But please don't try and justify the base and claim it is a great thing. The money they are saving is coming directly from the pockets of people like me, who make most of our money from the long range/OT/allowances of trips like these. Not to mention that the reason I started flying was the lifestyle of flying on routes like these (London, Rome, Paris, Frankfurt).

[jettlager]

Flugbegleiter,

[ I really don't give a sh*t anymore. I guess I'm "disengaged".]

You are not alone my friend.
The "Hewitt" survey measured disengagement levels with Longhaul at 78%.

These figures are mirrored across ALL OPERATIONAL departments with Tech crew I understand not much better measuring 72%.

Rumour has it that one of the SYD longhaul "handlers" has just resigned "unofficially" disgusted with the lies and spin he was expected to deliver.

QF is one hell of a sick organisation.

geoff dixon is solely responsible for the poisonous culture and environment that QF staff endure.

With more and more of us are taking a leaf from managements book by doing as they do the big LONGTERM question is will QF survive geoff dixon's tenure?

Jettlager

[hugh grant]

disembarking the a/c in sin last week a syd based csm mumbled 'there go the uk scabs'
I resent that
the uk base went ahead with the full endorsement of the faaa
if you got a problem take it up with the membership that signed off on this last eba
this csm is indicative of ther gutless wonders that hide amongst longhaul cabin crew
the immature antics of the screw the roo tossers are an embarrassment to all adult f/as who take their jobs seriously
lets hope these jueveniles are exposed and sacked asap
with their pathetic attitude -they could only burn up excess fuel while at work
since when does qantas owe these bludgers a living? go out and have a crack at getting a real job .
you're an expert at serving tea & coffee at 39,000 ft travelling at 900km per hr. bully for you.
you'll spend the rest of your life at a Centrelink office .there's no room service or crew drinks there.

[Flugbegleiter]

...disembarking the a/c in sin last week a syd based csm mumbled 'there go the uk scabs'
Hugh Grant (??!), I do agree with you that this kind of behaviour is stupid and pointless - as you pointed out, the FAAA/membership signed off on the London base. Anyone in the London base is NOT a "scab" and Australian based crew should not hold any resentment towards anyone who wants to work in the London base.

However, I can also understand why so many crew are upset with a lot of what has been going on lately, and the major changes and attacks on our job and lifestyle. So far, from what I have seen, the "Screw the Roo" team have not done anything wrong. They are meerly voicing their opinions of current management, a lot of which I agree with.

Unfortunately, we no longer have the powers we used to have as a union, and it is almost impossible to defend our hard-earned conditions. Of course it costs the company more money to uphold certain conditions - things like our slipping formula, hourly rates, transport entitlements, crew/company max, etc. But these are things we have fought for in the past, and make our job more bearable now. The company will take away any of these conditions they can, with little or no regard for our health, well-being or lifestyle. The Kiwis, Thais and now the London base are a good example of how Qantas would like us to work. I know a lot of AKL based crew have been doing 12-13 day trips with only a couple of days off afterward, then they're off again. 230-240 hour rosters, lower pay, shorter slips, contract employment. What sort of life is that? Sure, it saves the company money, but it is not fair to PEOPLE. I think QF have long forgotten this and it is now purely about profits and shareholders.

Blah blah blah...

[Xatrix]

Sorry couldn't help but to post.....

Firstly let me say I too like most Qf employees are unhappy with the direction the company seems to be taking with this "sustainable futures" program. It is an attack on conditions in ALL parts of the company. Tech crew, cabin crew, engineers, ground staff. There is no doubt the opening of these new bases is an attempt to slowly erode the conditions now enjoyed. Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Jetconnect, AO all achieve this same outcome. But let me say this....

I (tech crew) have done 3 sectors now with the LHR based crew, the first 2 with Australian crew (ex short and longhaul) and the 3rd with a crew of about half poms and half aussies. I have to say, and I can say my opinion represents that of all the tech crew on board each flight, that it was an absolute pleasure to work with them. Sure most of them were "learning" (though most had some cabin experience already) but the attitude was very refreshing. Not to tar all Syd based cabin crew with the same brush, but it was like a breath of fresh air.

Jetlagger i'm not sure exactly why you want the London based to fail so urgently, or where your disdain for those crew stems. Whatever your agenda, most of the things you say, especially using the Thai crew to try and fuel your obviously desperate case, are downright laughable. You think their memory is so short as to forget the less than friendly welcome they received when they first joined 5 years ago? (Undoubtedly from people like yourself - what is the different in principle from the BKK base and the LHR base?) Trust me, it is still fresh in their minds. And they are enjoying being treated with the respect of being the "senior" crew, and feel like they now have something to offer. Out for dinner in BKK a few days ago with a group of the BKk based crew asked what they thought of the LHR based crew. Generally speaking, nice people, good attitudes, obviously still cutting their teeth, but they all remember what it was like to be new too. Far from the anti-lhr base sentiment you suggest (and obviously hoped for). Sure, like any large group of people you are bound to get a few "extremes", but i think most would find what you write quite difficult to swallow.

I for one hope (and am quite confident) the LHR base will suceed, and the doomsdayers like yourself will have to turn your irrational outbursts elsewhere.....

[jettlager]

Xatrix,

thanks for the reference to me in your post.
I'm not entirely sure however why you want the base to succeed?

Is it because you like the fact that it represents a 10-20 % drop in salary for the hundreds of SYD based crew that traditionally operated that sector?

Is it because it is a vehicle that denies hundreds and hundreds of Australians the opportunity of working for and representing our flag carrier?

Is it because it represents a shift away from what has traditionally made Qantas unique which is the nature and character of our onboard service and those who provide it. I can only assume of course that our marketing department spends countless millions selling "The Spirit Of Australia" for a reason........?

Is it because it lines the pockets of the already bloated senior executives salaries at our expense?

Is it because the service standards on that route have declined markedly since it's start up?

Is it because the Australian taxation department and our economy as a whole loses the income tax and buying power generated by the wages that WOULD be paid if those jobs had stayed in Australia?


Speaking of the Thais and their introduction.
Was it not a SYD based CSM that was "stood down" by one of your collegues for DARING to put two Thais upstairs AGAINST his [the Captains] permission?

It is a FACT that since start up the Thais have been treated less than favourably by the new kids on the block.
They chose to bow recently to a SYD based crew for a reason.

Granted they may be prepared to, "blown wind up your ass" which is something SYD based crew will not but I personally dont see that as reason enough to champion the base's cause.

I can only hope that geoff and his cronies have a similar operarion in store for you so that I may be the first to ask why, YOU don't support it.

Jettlager

[Xatrix]

jetlagger,

I'm hardly championing the REASON for the creation of the base. You obviously missed my first paragraph. But it HAS happened. YOUR union endorsed it. Real people are up there now, some your ex-colleagues. I hardly think its going to close down because a couple of old syd-based boilers try to sabotage it. If you think your posts or actions will achieve this you're p!ssing into the wind. Why the "us v them" mentality?

I wonder what source you base your FACT about the treatment of the Thai crew on? And yes i've heard the story about the captain you mentioned. Like i said, you take any large group of people, whatever they do, you are still going to have your w@nkers. Fact of life.

As for a "similar operarion" for tech crew, i think you will shortly see the creation of a Singapore basing for a certain rank. An opportunity, for those who want it, to experience living and working in another country.

And noone's blowing anything up anyones arse. Its just refreshing, and one of the few times in my career that i've seen all 16 cabin crew and 4 tech crew go out for dinner and drinks as a CREW and have a really enjoyable time.


Jai yen yen na ja!

[jettlager]

xatrix,

to suggest that the basing of a handfull of AUSTRALIAN second officers in SIN is "similar" in effect to our LHR CC base is more than a little disingenuous.

[I wonder what source you base your FACT about the treatment of the Thai crew on?]

First hand reports VOLUNTEERED from the Thai crew that experienced it.
You may be interested to learn that the Thais have what THEY call a "secret weapon".
It takes the form of a written complaint to QF management and they have been putting pen to paper like never before.

You and others who think so are seriously misinformed if you think the Longhaul FAAA have "endorsed???" the LHR base.

Rather they were and continue to be, in no position to do anything about it.

[Its just refreshing, and one of the few times in my career that i've seen all 16 cabin crew and 4 tech crew go out for dinner and drinks as a CREW and have a really enjoyable time. ]

Still not enough reason to support it as far as I'm concerned even if YOU did have a really good time.

Jettlager

[peanut pusher]

We as crew lost the battle when TW & co. let the BKK base & AKL base start. You continually use the Thai crew as a friendly force when they have had a greater impact than any other on our conditions.
They worked during the stop work industrial dispute 3 years ago, the still go to LHR and stay at the hotel we stayed at, actually nothing has changed for them it's probably got better and some can be very two faced.
Most are excellent but a few are trouble makers, much like our Aus crew.
A Thai crew member said to on Wed. night it was great not being hit on middle aged men trying to impress her with their 2 bedroom flat in Mascot. I said does that happen lots and she said a couple times a month.
So the bow to the crew last week may have happened but there has been more than 100 flights between LHR / BKK / LHR and one bow doesn't make a presadent.
I know it's very hard but you have to work with what you have. I sumed it up and made a choice to work with what I have been delt.

Xatrix
Thank you for a a third party opion with clarity

[barrheadboy]

hi all i have been reading this thread with a lot of interest not as an employee of qantas but as a regular traveler with your airline i have flown with you since the early 70,and can honestly say that not once have i had any bad flights and that has been due to the professional work of the pilots c c ground staff and the travel agents so it realy dissapoints me to read all the comments and see what this aussie icon is turning into this sort of thing always starts at the top due to greed and dixon has a lot to answer for it causes distrust in the company and in the end divides the work force and has you fighting among your selves when that happens you all lose it would be better if you all worked together to get a better deal for your selves instead of being divided and conquered then we can get back to the happy friendly faces on board again because you will be there after the ceo and all the board have long gone good luck to you all from a qantas customer

[r3please]

Thanks for the positive feedback Barrheadboy. If only our leaders (using the term very loosely) would realise that we do in fact work hard onboard the aircraft, and spend most of our time fixing problems caused by lack of investment. Of course we should be spending the time that takes to be out in the cabin giving more fantastic service. Unfortunately the management only care about their bonus. What was is Margaret Jackson (chairperson) said? Oh yes I remember, she said "We should spend less time looking after the customers and employees and more time looking after the shareholders"

Says it all really doesn't it?


Anway I am one of the scabs working at the LHR base. I didn't want to come and was very outspoken against the base. But at the end of the day if I stay at home in Oz my flying will be rubbish now London trips have gone. Plus I had some family issues which required me to be in the UK and I thought it would be a good opportunity to travel around Europe while I still have staff travel.
When I return home in two years I can only imagine the trips will be unbearable so can't see myself staying around very long.


So how is the base going?

I heard 71 crew are wanting to return to Oz already. I don't believe that figure, I think its more like 17 crew. We have been told we have to stay for the full 2yr contract otherwise we don't have a job to go home to. There is a rumour going around that this is not legal and we can go home if we want to at anytime. I need to get more information on this but heaps of people are saying its true.

Operations seem very nice, much better than Sydney ops who only refer to you by number. Here they know your name and speak to you like an adult.

Management seem OK although wouldn't trust anyone at management level within QF.

Only on 2nd roster but been happy so far. Averaging around 160hr over two months, thats less than my Oz roster. Lots of days off and not been used on my A days yet. Of course rosters will get busier when Hong Kong trips start next bid period.

Flying has been very hard. This is because many time I have been the only crew member in economy with any experience. Its disgraceful that QF saved more money by not training new crew properly.

The other day we took off out of London and I walked into the galley, after handing out headsets etc.. to find all the new crew looking at their procedures manual on how to set up a bar cart!!! Nightmare! Services have been taking hours longer because people aren't up to speed.

QF should have had them flying with mentors for the first few months. Right now I feel like I'm an unpaid trainer and its pissing me off big time.

Dixon was up here a few weeks ago. All crew were invited to go and meet him but as I wish he were dead, I couldn't force myself to go. He told a group of crew that the base would be closed if it didn't save enough money. There he goes again being all positive.

It amazes me that they have got so many crew offside by the opening of the base all for a saving of $18m per year. Then they spend millions sending us on stupid 'Breathrough' and 'Straight talk' corses that are supposed to make us feel all warm and gooey about the company.

Good on jetlagger for being so passionate about the retension of out terms and conditions. We are supposed to be an Australian icon, takes the piss when Qantas are hiring English crew who have never even VISITED Australia.

If only more crew were like him/her they would have never got this base open in the first place.

[barrheadboy]

that would not be the same margaret jackson that had the freebie in the inflight magazine regarding her husbands ski resort in japan it would not be the packer group that publishes the magazine would it or am i being cynical maybe next time she is freeloading in 1st class you could dish out the service to her that she expects you to do to the paying customers if that is their attitude to customers that keep them in highly paid jobs no wonder they treat their employees the way they do if they are that worried about the share holders they should be creating a better culture among the employees when that happens the business improves and so do, s the share price i think they are in it for short time gain for them selves and stuff the airline as they will be long gone before the true picture emerges . good luck might see you on a flight one day

[r3please]

Exactly right Barrheadboy,

Look after the employees, they will look after the customers, the customers will look after the company.

By the way, Dixons email is [email protected]

I have it on good authority that he does read his own email.

[Arataki]

:*

[surfside6]

Arataki
What is your definition of professional?
Define "generous"wages.
Like most passengers you have no idea what crew do.Nor do you understand how CC juggle their lives around their work(not a complaint,,a fact.)
How did you find out about PPrune?
Most if not all LHR base are young and single with no responsibilities.As with anything that is new there is a particular excitement.Fly on the same leg in a years time and gauge the enthusiasm.The first casualty of working for QF is your enthusiasm...the mangement suck it out of you.
Flying is fast becoming a young single persons job..Stay 5 years get burnt out and leave.
Todays society is critical of older people..just as you have been.I would guess that you are younger than 35.As you age and your priorities change remember your own words they may come back to haunt you.
American companies are slowly realizing that they made a mistake by retrenching their older more experienced employees.They have the answers.their absenteeism is lower and they are more stable than their younger counterparts.
What you are seeing is the transition of the airline industry from hospitality to transport....a bus service.Then,I guess, your criticisms will take on a different complexion.
Welcome to PPrune.

[qfcsm]

What a sad state of affairs this thread has got to!
Everybody is just bitching and yelling at each other.

True to form, cabin crew are whining about something that has already happened. Something that is too late to change.

There is not one suggestion about how to fix it.

And why? Because long haul cabin crew are now totally unrepresented!

The long haul FAAA are now the laughing stock of QF management and are now at a point where QF won't negotiate with them - they just go ahead with the changes they want!

The word the CEO used recently to describe the FAAA was "unforgivable". That means he and his management team will not forgive the FAAA for what they did (threat of strike action).
Read that as 'why bother consulting with them!

I suggest someone needs to put a rocket up the FAAA before nothing is left.

BTW: I am not a member of the FAAA as I refuse to subsidise their childish, unprofessional behaviour. And when someone suggests that I may need them one day for support representation, I suggest walking in to a disciplinary with an FAAA official will get you sacked quicker than walking in with a camel suit on!

[surfside6]

QFCSM
Don't blame the current people running the FAAA ...they are just trying to clean up the mess left by the 3 blind mice.
Talking about solutions what would you have done to achieve an equitable outcome...I wait with bated breath.

[ozskipper]

Perhaps it's time to put a little perspective on the real situation.

I came over in the first wave, and as many of you will probably recall I started in Qantas as a fixed term employee (one of the 11 month bods) in long haul.

Whilst I agree that opening overseas's bases isn't ideal for the flying we like to do out of Australia, the fact is its well and truly happened. The flying is never going to be the same as it was when Qantas was owned by the Government and the good old days are well and truly gone. That's reality and it seems a bit pointless to belly ache over it.

Yes, there have been some initial teething problems - but that's be expected. I remember my first few flights when I started and there were teething problems then as well! Fortunately, I had colleagues who were happy to point me in the right direction and were patient enough to put up with endless questions.

The local recruits are very enthusiastic and many of them have flying experience with other airlines, so they're not completely green.

As for comments that passengers have been unhappy with the service and that the cabins have been left in a mess, well I can only speak of my experiences and that hasn't been the case at all. Each flight, passengers have commented that the crew are particularly friendly and that they enjoyed the flight.

One particular VIP asked me what on earth I was doing up in first class. When I queried what he meant by that (I presumed he didn't think I was up to scratch), he said he thought that first class was reserved for the old grumpy bums rather than the younger friendly ones who seem happy to be at work and it was a refreshing change!

The only problems I've encountered have been the lack of handover forms being completed by Australian based crew (I'm yet to get on board and find one completed!), the snide little comments made by people who ought to know better (some CSM's should lead by example), and childish game playing like tying up the ends of the safety demo equipment and hiding equipment.

It wouldn't hurt to bear in mind that the crew at the LHR base are making the best of an unavoidable situation.

[DEFCON4]

OzSkipper I think you are telling Porkies.The crew generally working on any flight to LHR and in particular P/C are the youngest and newest in the Company.The grumpy old bums usually do short trips.Spurious anecdotes undermine the general thrust of your post.

[QFRegional]

So here we have someone that has been with the company 5 minutes working in the premium cabins, just goes to show how much Qantas care for the customer. Why the waiting period for Australian based crew to apply for BFirst positions?

On another note are long haul that seriously overstaffed that leave without pay is necessary again?

[DEFCON4]

QFRegional
You ask a very good question.If you crunch the numbers you will find that QF Longhaul are indeed overstaffed.With Howard gaining control over both houses in June you may find that QF will make some selective retrenchments in the new financial year.No packages just retrenchments.These people will then be replaced with contractors when manpower requirements increase.These retrenchments will not be" last on first off" but rather based on performance and the assessed behaviour gleaned from the fireside chats.

[r3please]

QFRegional - QF's excuse is that you need to have experience before working in the 1st class cabin. HOWEVER because London crew are cheaper the company doesn't give a **** so they put them in 1st anyway. Thats why they have sherpas up in London now working on every flight out of London.

The sherpas are on a 33 day trip, must be costing a fortune.

And yes, now the base has opened in London they have a huge excess of crew in Australia. They are 'managing' this by offering leave without pay and part time positions. If only everyone could see through this and not take these 'offers' the company would be paying out millions for crew sitting at home with no work for them.

[surfside6]

Words of wisdom from Lesley's(Grant)favourite nephew.Its early days my friend lets hear what you have to say in a year's time.

[White Pointer]

Most of the more senior people I know couldn't give a rats about going to London. Some of them have stated how they have been there 100 times in their first few years, and the newer shorter trips suit them more after years of doing longer trips. Just have a look at the different people going back to Singapore and Bangkok as mentioned above. A more proportionate amount of senior people on most crews compared to a few months ago.

Perhaps people should consider who the union really represents. Is it the more junior workers, or the more highly senior people who always seem less affected by these changes. To say the union was forced into this whole concept is a load of crap. They accepted it and conned the membership into voting for it. Do something constructive with your anger and let them know as well.

What is the latest with New York now? What is the view of the union on this?

[surfside6]

Like most people you are critical but offer no alternatives...what do you want?...allocated rosters?squirrell caging?No union is able to represent ALL interests but rather attempt to satisfy the common interests.Stop carping and come up with some alternatives!Better still....stand for election.

[jettlager]

Interesting to see that we have a brand new poster attempting to divide support for the longhaul FAAA by spreading lies, spin and misinformation.

They are obviously not a paid up member. If they were a simple phone call would be all that was needed to answer their question.

I wonder what their agenda is...................?

[surfside6]

"Squirrel Caging" is the popular name for rotating seniority.

[ozskipper]

DEFCON4 writes

OzSkipper I think you are telling Porkies.The crew generally working on any flight to LHR and in particular P/C are the youngest and newest in the Company.The grumpy old bums usually do short trips.Spurious anecdotes undermine the general thrust of your post.
His words not mine. Whilst this is an anonymous forum I believe that my previous postings over the last few years on here have established some level of credibility. I don't engage in porkies or personal attacks, so as such I stand by my previous post.


QFREGIONAL writes

So here we have someone that has been with the company 5 minutes working in the premium cabins, just goes to show how much Qantas care for the customer. Why the waiting period for Australian based crew to apply for BFirst positions?
I agree I've only been in the company for 5 minutes - how this affects the customers in the premium cabin however, I fail to see? Unless your suggesting that I'm not fit to work up there?

I'm not in inexperienced in the employment world, I'm fully trained in Qantas's service standards and emergency procedures (I'm yet to get less than 100% on my exams) and whilst I occasionally forget a service signature here & there, I'd like to think I'm a good operator both in the cabin & galley. I'll freely admit I'm not perfect and never will be, but I don't cut corners and I make an effort to get it right.

From what I recall, there was no waiting period for BFirst when it was initially introduced (anyone could apply regardless of length of service - however, I'm open to correction on this point). In any event, its pretty obvious why there was no waiting period to apply for BFirst in London - Qantas didn't have enough experienced BFirst operators going over. Again, I reiterate my previous point that you might as well make the best of any given situation rather than bitching about it.

Anyway, I guess my point was (and still is) its not all doom and gloom over here.

[jettlager]

huge rant,

get a life.

Its obvious you need one.:ok:

Jettlager

[ExcessData]

Wow - lots of anti-Q sentiment here!

All here who've had enough of the Roo: I reckon the best strategy would be to vote with your feet and resign. I mean the company treats you pretty badly! Especially when you compare the job to other gigs around town (like Virgin Blue (domestically), where everyone's so darn happy!).

Show the company you've had enough. By resigning, not only will you kick them in the guts, but you'd probably be able to make a hell of a lot more money with your skill set elsewhere (surely!).

It's time to stand firm, and hand in that letter of resignation (or else endure the unendurable)!

ED

[Argus]

ExcessData

Well said.

Show the company you've had enough. By resigning, not only will you kick them in the guts, but you'd probably be able to make a hell of a lot more money with your skill set elsewhere (surely!).

Not only would you register your disapproval with QF, you'd also make available a job opportunity for some one who says they are serious about customer service.

And I'll patronise QF long haul again.

Or will pigs fly?

[jettlager]

excess data,

the following is a quote from the end of a post you made 12 months or so ago.

--------------------------------------


"Academic really - at least Qantas mainline employees are on decent conditions."

--------------------------------------


We [Qantas mainline] aim to keep it that way.

Thanks for your interest and support.

Jettlager

[ExcessData]

Sure, jetlagger. But I spose my point (in return to the Q bashing going on in this thread- and remember that 'Q' is all of its employees) was that QF mainline CC conditions would have to deteriorate significantly and substantially further before their wicket would be considered anything less than very, very good - note that this ISN'T a barb, but rather a fairly objective observation based on how your conditions weigh up against the competition (and yep, I've looked into it quite a bit). And if conditions had deteriorated to the point where your quality of life/remuneration was no longer adequate, then you'd see that in the form of a mass exodus to the greener pastures elsewhere. No such exodus has occurred, as I believe no such 'below standard' decline of conditions has occurred. In fact I think the QF mainline CC have some way to fall before their package/lifestyle could be considered anything less than 'extraordinary'...

It's not a personal comment, jetlagger, but I don't know what else I can say?

[jettlager]

excess data,

12 months ago our conditions, [to quote you] were decent and yet today you deem them "extraordinary".

As a longhauler I can attest to the fact that nothing positive has occured since then, to our terms and conditions.

3% PA increase to our basic which puts us behind CPI and with the LHR base, hundreds of us are 10-20% out of pocket.

We ARE paid higher than other Australian FAs however we operate a more complex 3 CLASS FULL SERVICE arrangement and like it or not an element of what we earn historically reflects the fact that 7 months of our lives are spent away from home.
We recieve nothing extra in the way of penalty payments for holidays and the unsociable hours we work with the majority of our work days seeing us missing a nights sleep.

It is a mistake to compare us, what we do and our renumeration with domestic FAs as the roles really are like chalk and cheese.

Given the profitability of QF and the contribution we make to it, I can see NO REASON for any reduction to the conditions we [and other operational employees] currently earn.

Hypocacy is rampant at the exective level in QF. They handsomely reward themselves in the way of performance bonuses whilst constantly harping that "the sky is falling" and that "WE ALL" must do more for less.

A recent Longhaul Cabin Crew Manager resigned recently quietly quoting disgust with the direction this company takes with it's staff and their [QF's] complete obsession with short term profitability at ANY/ALL cost. Rumour has it that he claimed QF was the worst managed company that he had ever worked for.

We will continue do all we can to maintain our terms and conditions in the face of this rampant greed and hypocracy but with geoff dixon part of little johnny's industrial relations reform committee, that isn't going to be easy.

I suspect Australia is about to take a massive leap to the political right like NEVER before seen in this country.
Your dreams may, through legislation, come true...................

Jettlager

QANTAS- The {mean} Spirit Of Australia.

[RollzRoyce]

Apparently the next permanent flight attendants to be employed by Qantas will be on a different and much lower pay scale/system then the current Qantas permanent flight attendants! It keeps getting worse I suppose..even for the permanents!! That is dissapointing!

Rollz :suspect:

[jettlager]

Rolls,

if geoff dixon gets his way there wont BE any permanent FAs ever again.

Didn't you know?

little johnny and his offsider costello say that people WANT more casual/partime/contract work.

You know the type?

The type that doesn't provide the conditions that allow you to borrow money to buy a car or a house and leaves you living week to week with no security of pay/employment.

The conditions of employment that DO provide for the above and afforded some security, were a given, for your parents generation.

We once had a social/industrial structure in this country that was the envy of the world.............

I hope that the backlash against what is going to come will see the right side of politics out of office for a long, long time.

Jettlager

[DEFCON4]

The BNE base did not erode our conditons in any way and it is not an off shore base.The PER base was never going to work(not enough flying)Mel...well we will see.I don't think that the FAAA abandoned these bases at all.Just empty rhetoric on your part.

[White Pointer]

Nice comments re short haul f/a's jetlagger. Is it just my imagination or don't other fa's in any airline also work on holidays, night times, shift work etc.?

I suppose it is obvious that nobody has as many skills, works so hard and deserves more pay as they alone increase the company profitability more than you long haul f/a's. If maybe you started treating others in the company with more respect, rather than bleating constantly from your pedestal, then there would be more support for your cause.

Perhaps that is why short haulers all bow to you when you walk past as well.

[jettlager]

whitepointer,

have you heard of "band payments?".

I'm dizzy to the point of falling over with the "spin" in your post.

You dont report directly to kylie do you?

Boring................................

Jettlager

[sydney s/h]

Jetlagger,

careful what you say about...

Quote - "It is a mistake to compare us, what we do and our renumeration with domestic FAs as the roles really are like chalk and cheese".

Can you explain how they are like chalk and cheese?

We operate flights out of Singapore down to Darwin, then to adelaide then home to sydney in one single duty. Min 14hr tour of duty but you can pretty much expect it to blow out to up 16hrs - yes, true. No cab rides for us home - allowances a minimum amount compared to yourself.
The next day we can then be operating 4legs - a 10hr 20min duty after this big duty the day before.

Just have a reality check buddy. You are not the only ones working long night sectors, public holidays etc. As for band money - lets swap. You have our band money and i'll happily take your allowances.

I dont know ANYONE in short haul who would earn more money than a longhauler, and thats working more hours than you do.

Please - this is not an attack at l/haulers, i have alot of respect for what you guys do and feel for you losing trips - jetlagger just needs to know that s/h work bloody hard as well and gone are the days of chalk and cheese between the two divisions.

[Gomam]

can i please just say one thing?

i dont care if people get stuck into me on this, i understand long hauls frustrations as well as short hauls, but hey if u dont like it get out! its simple as that, having been on line for 18 months i see it everyday, and i wonder why these people who complain are still around.

yes we all are being screwed by the company, it sucks, we are just a number, and really they dont give 2 hoots about us.

but where else will u get a job that pays so well, with little amount of training and the benefits associated with it?

put yourselves in a jetstar flight attendants shoes for a day, then i am sure u will think differently. Or even worse put yourself in my shoes, the poor little casual who covers your sick leave, is always willing to work (cause u never know it may not b there next week), this casual doesnt get band payments, no holidays, no staff travel, and is constantly reminded that "you are just a contractor, u do not work for qantas"

Ps-this is not a whinge for me, just stating how it is for us. I doubt u would ever find a casual complaning, we feel lucky to have a job.

We get our rosters a week out which makes trying to organise our lives so much harder, im sorry guys but take a look around, you could be worse off, and be thankful u have a job.

Go ahead and tell me off all you want, i just think some people out there think the company owes them, if its no longer fun get out, you cant be doing yourself any good.

[DEFCON4]

Shorthaul`s naivete in accepting the conditions in their last EBA helped no one.The 16 hour days and no cab ride were negotiated by the shorthaul union executive.This plus the reduction in band payments for transferring longhaul allowed Dixon to screw two birds with one stone.Longhaulers have a reason to be amazed and disappointed by this myopia.The job used to be different, but now....?Many shorthaul friends are not happy Darryl!!!
Don`t let yourselves get done over a second time!!!

[jettlager]

sydney s/h,

what he said..............

Jettlager

[sydney s/h]

Clearly you didnt understand what i said.

ALL i was trying to do was point out to Jetlagger that S/H and L/H are not chalk and cheese and that in L/H you dont necessarily work harder.

Thats all.

I wasnt trying to bring up an EBA arguement - not interested in going into that whole debate - just beyond me why Jetlagger has made the comments against S/H.

Hey - they way things are going we will all be working together one day and there wont be two divisions - who knows!

:E

[DEFCON4]

Agreed.One division would be great.Then this divide and conquer nonsense would be over and we could provide a united front against the "visitors"

[jettlager]

The trouble is what will longhaul flying be like if done under the conditions the shorthaulers have agreed to.....................?

[DEFCON4]

I agree.Flying would have to be under our conditions

[DEFCON4]

As usual..long on rhetoric and short on....anything constructive.Stand for election next time and see if you can make an improvement.Talk about pine nuts for testicles.

[qfcsm]

And that's about the best you can do... take a shallow swipe!
Bet you take a swipe at me too.

Basically I agree with HG except for the bit about the screw the roo team. I don't believe they are on the same planet as the rest of mankind! And heaven forbid they run for FAAA spots!

When are long haul crew going to wake up and see that they are no longer represented. We have got a key FAAA executive more worried about a pantyhose survey that the continual erosion of entitlements (sorry girls, I know it is important to you, but could they not have left it up to the OH&S team).

Perfect example of the lack of relevance of the FAAA is the current stance by AO to set up a new consultative committee. Looks like the current committee, made up of primarily FAAA officials, would be more aptly named the “destructive committee”.

But the FAAA will tell you that they are the authority on negotiating on your behalf.
My view is they have lost focus, lost touch and still believe in the old militant union mentality. The reality is that it just doesn’t wash any more. The corporate world has moved on and as much as crew hates to think it, QF is now a corporate entity and behaves like one.

So how about the FAAA get off their buts and have a go at trying to fix some stuff by good old fashion negotiations (that means conversation, consultation, compromise and conclusion).
Hey why not have a go at stopping the annihilation of my long service leave. I was hoping to save that for a rainy day when QF decide they not longer need me and dump me on the dole queue. But it would seem that QF is hell bent on making sure I leave with zippo after 15 years.

Come on guys, stand up and make a name for yourselves… I dare you!

Ooops sorry. This thread is about the LHR base... :oh:

[DEFCON4]

Both Huge Grunt and Qfcsm on an election ticket.....there would be no Australian Crew on QF Aircraft within 6 months.Your thoughts about conversation,compromise etc.would be fine if QF management adopted the same principles.....Guess what?they don't!It is management by divine right.
No swipe intended,just come up with some constructive ideas instead of criticism

[qfcsm]

The way I see it is that the FAAA don't really seem to be achieving anything. Hence my opinion re their irrelevance.

Having said that, the only reason I can see for someone defending them would be because they are 'one of them'!

And if that said one is not 'one of them', why does that one not help the very way he/she says:
No swipe intended,just come up with some constructive ideas instead of criticism

We wait for the constructive ideas.................:hmm:

[DEFCON4]

Yes I WAS on the union executive...8years ago.I have no complaints with their handling of current circumstances.YOU are the one complaining.So instead of whinging come up with some positive alternatives.
If I was still on the union executive you would be asked to rescind your membership.

[qfcsm]

Too late... Haven't been a member for ages as I refuse to finance that kindergarten.... :yuk:

[DEFCON4]

Just an habitual whinger with no solutions>Your credibility= Zero!!

[qfcsm]

Note to self...
"Ignore comments from sludge dwellers".

Oxford:-
sludge
• noun 1 thick, soft, wet mud or a similar viscous mixture. 2 dirty oil or industrial waste. 3 a muddy shade of brown or green.

Hmmmm.... mud

[DEFCON4]

Now you resort to desultory name calling.You were obviously not employed for your sense of humour.You two are in the minority.The FAAA can not act unilaterally but only with the support of the membership ie. voting.EBAs are endorsed(or not) by the membership.It was not 200 FAAA members who chose the LHR base it was 75...the rest are locals some Kiwis,some who just wanted to have a job flying at any cost.
Both whingers with no ideas.Where were you when all this was happening?We didn`t hear your voices then,but we hear your complaining now.You two are just one person with schizophrenia.
If the name calling and whinging brightens your miserable little lives keep it up it matters not one jot to me.While you two little dogs bark the aviation wagon rolls on.

[TightSlot]

Oh dear, and we were doing so well...

For a short, fabulous, shining moment there, the issues were being discussed without all the silly name calling and rock throwing. Now, here we go again.

As my esteemed co-mod flyblue likes to say "play the ball, not the player". She'd also probably say "please" because she's nice. I'm not
:E

[captainrats]

This is not the first time Qantas has had crew domiciled in the UK.In the 1970s it was a privilege and fun.
Sadly how things have changed

[yellow flag]

HI all,
It would seem,there are a lot of different of opinions here.
some of them informed,a lot of them uninformed.
some of the opinions it would seem depend on age or length of service in q.and then again on youth or inexperience.
we can all learn from each other,but are we looking at each other or looking at the common enemy.
many a general has used his troops as cannon fodder to please his superiors and gain promotion.its nothing new.
only time OR plans by the troops change the generals mind or get him/her removed is it possible, but it needs cohesion,not devision.
we cannot change what has happened.
but we can change what happens next.
i suggest the problems with CC are caused by their immediate management,and their instructions come from their management,and their instructions come from senior management and so on up to GD and MD
if you had the chance of saving 18 mill wouldnt you jump at it.
BUT,if in the mean time you loose 100 mill of business,its not such a good deal is it.
that is essentially the senario.
it has happened,we are loosing wages and conditions,the lhr contract pays around L12500 for a f/a p/a when on an international comparison basis it should be around L34000,based on $60,000 aud f/a in syd
we need to fight back not fight
attacks on the FAAA are without substance.i say to anyone out there if you want to attack the faaa,call them and do it,cos as far as i know, and i do ring,THEY ARE PUSHING IT UP HILL,with q negociations.
i have been in q negociations and i can tell you they ALWAYS play HARDBALL. come in and give it a try if you think it is a PUSHOVER.
so lets fight the common enemy .................not each other
HAKUNA MATATA

[qfcsm]

Thanks Yellow Flag for... well I'm not sure what for, but thanks anyhow.

Agree with some of your comments but in relation to playing hardball I'm afraid that's the way it is.

If the FAAA are not capable of playing on the same piece of turf then they need to get some expert skilled people, of comparable calibre that QF uses, to do their battling for them.

There's no excuse for a union claiming to be modern saying "Oh well it's the best we could do". Sorry but that doesn't cut it.

FAAA union officials are flight attendants who are going up against hardened industrial relations law practitioners. They go in with the best intentions but how do you compete against QF when they front up with a negotiator who was previously an IR commissioner and still bears the title of QC. FAAA needs to get bigger guns and the fees that members pay should be used for that very purpose.

I have been criticised for complaining without offering suggestions so I will end this post with a suggestion.

Most long haul crew are peeved at QF forcing the taking of long service leave to reduce QF's leave liability and subsequently make the bottom line look a bit better.

And it seems that by all accounts the law is on QF's side.

My suggestion is for the FAAA to begin lobbying the government to improve corporate laws so that any accumulated entitlements (like long service leave) are paid to a trust account.

The corporation can enjoy the interest from the account but can't touch the cash.

The value in this is two fold:
1. There is no need for the corporation to force its employees to take the leave and relieve the liability because there isn't one.
2. The employees entitlements are protected should the corporation go broke.

Note that I believe annual leave is about rest and recreation and should be taken as prescribed. Long service leave is about a bonus for years of service (loyalty).

[capt.cynical]

QFCSM.

"My suggestion is for the FAAA to begin lobbying the government to improve corporate laws so that any accumulated entitlements (like long service leave) are paid to a trust account."

You dont mean the current Federal government surely.;)

[yellow flag]

thank you qfcsm,i think.
however,and i dont want to enter into banter,your appreciation of the facts seems a little uninformed.
we USED to be able to do the things you may suggest.
HOWEVER,have you seen the changes in the industrial relations agreement,or were you under a rock.
the LIBERAL party by its very nature design things for their 'big end of town' mates.
hence when they get control of the senate this year,we will loose another hard earned RIGHT,to redundancy payment,all we will get is 'SEE YA' and a bit of lsl.(if we have any left)all that hard work for nothing.
BIG BROTHER.your are probably too you young to remember the film or the proficy.might just come true.
the major enemy is GD and LITTLE JONNY.
costello,coming,TOMORROW, will be WORSE.
if you have a grab on all these facts,then go to the FAAA an offer your services.

[qfcsm]

YellowFlag, thanks for supporting my point of view. You said exactly what I expect to hear from the current FAAA - "It's all too hard. The end is near!"

No I don't live under a rock and I am fully aware of the political environment we live in and that is precisely why I say that it's not enough to have a group of flight attendants fronting up to QF to negotiate for conditions etc.

The FAAA have to start looking for high-end industrial muscle. And I mean no disrespect to current industrial officers but clearly they are not up to the task any more. You get what you pay for and the FAAA are paying average wages for average staff.

You’ve heard the saying that builders have the worst houses, well unions are generally the worst employers.

So I say that yes times are tough in negotiations so the FAAA need to get tough people who are strategically smart and know the landscape. :rolleyes:

[yellow flag]

qfcsm,
you,really didnt say anything,did you.
just avoided the issues.
if you think there is a simple solution,get involved with the faaa,manage the finances and hire the people YOU think we should have.
see simple.

[qfcsm]

This is a pointless debate.

I don't want to get involved and as I explained I don't believe that flight attendants are capable of negotiating at the level that QF are playing at and I certainly did not say nor believe there is a simple solution.

And I have made two suggestions but still I am accussed of "saying nothing".

My thought on protecting crew conditions is that the FAAA should employ strategic, industrial muscle. And be prepared to pay for it.

Clearly there are no other answers from this forum and if it is true that some of the posts are from FAAA officials then there are no answers there either.

And if that is saying nothing then nothing is what I will say!
Simple eh! :(

[White Pointer]

Qfcsm - your opinion is the sentiment of many out on the line. Well said. However, the responses are what you would expect from the current union reps.

[Captain.Q]

Aircraft approaches LHR to commence descent.Captain receives a call from CSM...we cannot land we are still doing the meal service.Approach cancelled and aircraft circles up around Manchester for an hour as crew finish service and prepare cabin.
Lack of experience meant that this LHR based crew could not even develop a time line.
This was a breakfast service that was begun too late by the onboard managers ,who,as stated, have little concept of time management

[White Pointer]

Is this supposed diversion fact? If so what are the details, ie. flight no, date etc? Or is it just another figmented rumour designed to discredit people.

When you have a close relative up in LHR enjoying the base, there because they love flying and they get a permanent gig at the end of it (after being on a fixed contract) you get really sick of all this crap being invented on this forum.

Fact is the people up there are mostly great, and they are making the most of the situation. Most are actually loving living in London. However, people calling them scabs etc, and trying to make out that they are really incompetent, is really putting certain groups of people offside with many in the company.

[GalleyHag]

The "fact" is they were employed as scabs on fixed term contracts for the very purpose of working should long haul crew take industrial action. So what if they are now in LHR and come back to a permanent position in long haul (if its still here in 2 years) the fact of the matter is they are/were a scab.

Maybe they are competent but the only FACTUAL information on the fixed term crew now up in LHR is the above.

[RaverFlaver]

Seriously - I have my doubts about the above service. I think you could still complete a service on a full 747-400 from SIN - LHR with 4 flight attendants!!!!

A full 747 from SYD to MEL would sound more believable.....

Not that I know anyone who took up a position with QF during the EBA negotiations, and then on to L/H, but can we refrain from calling them scabs it really is getting tiring!

Cheers
RaverFlaver :)

[GalleyHag]

I agree, however I was just stating "factual" information for White Pointer on some crew based in LHR.

[peanut pusher]

Craptain Q comes out of the blue with another dreamt up lie.
Didn't happen did it ? Please don't bore us with continual cheap shots from the cheap seats.
Name the flight and date, nobody in LHR op's has heard of it only diversion was a medical this week, first in 8 weeks so deal in facts not fools.


Bring it on

PM me captain and we'll keep it out of public domain

[White Pointer]

I can see the following sequence of events happening quite clearly:

"Flight deck"

"Yes, this is the CSM, you cannot land this aeroplane as our newbie hosties tried to get a bit more break time in and started the service late, therefore, the pax have not had their meal. Will advise you when it is ok to land."

"No worries, we have extra fuel, about 10 tonnes, to hold for an hour, plus another 10 to fly up to Manchester and then back, in fact put some extra on at the start of the flight and offloaded commercial pax and freight due to potential cabin crew incompetance. Let us know when it is safe to land"

"No worries, will only be an hour or so"

PA to the pax "ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain, you will be not making it to london this morning as we are unable to serve your meal in time, therefore in order to allow you to finish eating we will fly a bit further up to Manchester, and if we have enough fuel and you are well and truly satisfied, we may just be able to make it back to Heathrow. Thankyou for flying Qantas, hope to see you again in the future."



Galleyhag, following is a copy of your posting on the qantas panel interviews thread posted today. However, your post above defines any fixed term contractor as a scab.



GalleyHag
Over 250 posts so far. Perhaps I should click here and order a Personal Title
posted 5th May 2005 17:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How depressing is the following information from the FAAA Victorian branch www.faaa.net. This is just 2 parts of the newsletter I thought would be relevant to this thread:

5 May 2005

Attention All Victorian Based Long Haul Cabin Crew

Sadly the end of Bid Period 237 will see several of our colleagues on fixed term contracts and secondment leave our ranks. Priority of employment will be offered to these individuals over the next 6 months. However, the Company has categorically stated that there will be no additional employment within Australian Long Haul in the near future. I therefore urge all affected members to submit applications to all areas of flying within the Qantas Group as soon as possible.

Having worked with many of these crew, I can only commend them on their commitment and the contributions they have made during their employment.

The Future of Flying?

The Association is aware of the angst of members regarding the continuing reduction of traditional flying out of Victoria . Qantas CEO Mr Geoff Dixon has made it abundantly clear that the Company, through its Sustainable Futures Program, will seek to achieve maximum cost efficiencies. In doing this, the Qantas Group will restructure its workforce as required, and Long Haul Flight Attendants are not exempt. Management have stated that there will be an alignment of flying to achieve the greatest degree of productivity within the terms of the EBA.

The Association will actively campaign to avoid marginalisation of the Long Haul Division and while many of the changes may be unpalatable, they will be inevitable. We will continue to look to the future with our primary objective being to maintain employment for ALL Australian Based Long Haul Flight Attendants.

[r3please]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if this happened.

I flew with a CSS last week who had only been with Qantas 2 WEEKS!!! (LHR base) She had been called out of catagory due to shortage of CSS's.

She was lovely but had no idea. So if on a full flight she has done the service late they would have had to circle around in order to collect service items from the cabin.

On this flight though she had several Aussie crew on board who new how the timing/service worked.

Makes me wonder why they didn't ask me (with several years) experience or on of the other crew to operate as CSS? How I remember, we would be asking for additional payment to operate out of catagory where as this new girl has no idea you get out of catagory allowances.....saving cents yet again.

Qantas the spirit of tight arsed, mean, lying management.

[GalleyHag]

White Pointer

My post on the Qantas Panel Interview thread was to highlight the fact that there would be NO opportunity for employment within Australian long haul and the future of flying long haul for the benefit of people currently going through the interview process.

I could care less about the fixed term crew!

[Crusty Demon]

You guys have got to be kidding. This is the most hilarious thread I have read in a long time.

To think you would divert an aircraft because the cabin has not been cleaned up shows a lack reality. Every airline has some form of communication when on descent in the event that some persons don't recognise the change in sounds, pitch etc. If the pilots did not communicate the fact they were on descent and the cabin should be ready for landing means they would have to shoulder lots of the blame. But to go to Manchester - you have to be kidding?

At the end of the day, most descents take nearly 25 to 30 minutes. Even if all trays full of food were on everyones laps, a crew should be able to pick them all up and stow them in quick fashion. Bad luck if the punters have not finished eating. Say 15 pax per crew, how long would it take for each person to collect 15 trays each, stow them and perform their normal duties.

If a crew cannot do that, then I would hate to see what they would be capable of. Didn't a BA 747 have all 4 engines go out not long after departing Asia for Aus years back due to volcanic ash. The crew managed to clean everything up and do a ditching prep in no time at all. Don't think they would have said hang off the ditching until the service has finished.

Get a grip on the real world.

[hugh grant]

there is absolutely no way r3p is on the london base
no one would put up with this snivelling little wimp
mate you chose the base .you're on it. you're a "scab "or whatever some of these dopey posters want to refer to you as. don't try and suck up to aust based crew now
and as for your attitude :if you are up here -you are dead weight, excess baggage
"they didn't ask me..."big sheilas blouse
there are 180 aust based crew operating out of LHR
we are not scabs - we are fully endorsed and suported by the FAAA through an overwhelming vote at the last EBA
live with it

[jettlager]

crustydemon,

its obvious you know nothing of the inexperience of many of those now operating for qfuk.
Especially those running the cabins.

No captain that I know of is going to land an aircraft [fuel permitting] with a cabin that is unsafe to do so.

Your assumptions about the time needed to clear a cabin and prepare for landing indicate that you have never worked in one.

Miss your slot into LHR at 6am and you'll be dizzy doing circles north of LHR.
30+ minutes of holding is not unusual.

--------------------------------------------------

huge slant,

"we are not scabs - we are fully endorsed and suported by the FAAA through an overwhelming vote at the last EBA".

The "spin" is so much that its all I can do just to stand up.

Regards to kylie.

Jettlager

[TightSlot]

For now, this thread has run its' course, and has degenerated into the usual rock-throwing party, so we'll put it to bed: I'm sure that the subject will return again to impress us all with the sparkling charm, wit and perception beloved of a small number of QF crew.

:{