View Full Version : Is the UK going to pot, and if so, why? (merged)

14th Mar 2005, 08:14
Guardian: Trespasser who fell through roof wins payout of £567,000

A TEENAGE boy who fell through a roof while he was trespassing on private property has received £567,000 in compensation. Carl Murphy, now 18, sued the owner of a warehouse after suffering serious head injuries when he plunged 40ft to the floor as a nine-year-old in 1996.......

Mr Murphy, of Seaforth, Merseyside, suffered brain damage in the accident which was said by doctors to have caused such severe behavioural problems that he was expelled from two schools in the two years after his recovery......

Mr Murphy fell through the roof of Container Care park in Bootle docks after trespassing with a group of friends.

He was expelled from his primary school in Bootle within a week of returning after the accident, given a home tutor, but that ended when he threatened her with violence. He missed ten months of school before being enrolled at Nugent House, Billinge, a school for children with behavioural problems, in November 1998, but was expelled 18 months later.

His family took the now defunct company to court four years ago, claiming that it should have repaired security fencing to prevent children from playing on the site. Their claim was successful and he received the money on his 18th birthday yesterday.

Mr Murphy is currently living with his grandmother because his mother Diane and her boyfriend, Kevin Parsons, both 36, are serving three years in prison for setting up a heroin and crack cocaine business from their council house.........


14th Mar 2005, 08:15
No. It went mad some time ago.

14th Mar 2005, 08:30
Give it a couple of years and Americans will be telling stories about famous compensation claims in the UK for hot tea spills, camper van auto pilots, etc etc.
The Brits will get all excited and shout back that these never really happened, they're only folklore.
But the Americans will not believe us and the stories will get bigger.
And President Blair will start playing war games without too many of his best friends.
What are we becoming?


tony draper
14th Mar 2005, 09:09
True Mr aged ,a once great people being brought low by PC, touchy feelyness, and being social enginered by the luvvie media, they like to pretend that everything in the garden is rosey,and all problems can be solved by a large multi cultural group hug.

To many limp wrists on the tiller of the good ship UK.

14th Mar 2005, 10:14
"This is the BBC:-

Astute listeners, if they hold their heads outside their back door after ten pm, will hear, above the distant rumble of traffic, a faint, high-pitched sound not unlike that of a distant jet-turbine engine.

We are reliably informed it is Enoch Powell, turning in his grave."

14th Mar 2005, 10:21
er.... I'm puttin me helmet on before I post this....

I think the basic principle they consider here is somewhat akin to a zoo leaving a cage door open - kid wanders in and whap! he's a tigerburger.

ie if you don't take adequate steps to ensure secured access to a dangerous area you may make yourself liable.

I'm not making any comment on the rights/wrongs of this particular case.

14th Mar 2005, 10:41
That's right SLFguy, years ago I worked in the construction industry and you had to have fencing and security equipment so extensive you could store gold on site as well as your diggers and concrete mixers. Any small hole in a fence which would allow a child to sneak in would leave you liable. A clip round the ear from a security guard would leave him with charges of assault.

14th Mar 2005, 10:49
Well thank God that the UK legal system has at the same time managed to convict a 12 year old to a life sentence in prison then.
Should make some of you happy.

link (http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5036494.html)

14th Mar 2005, 10:53
From the news at the weekend, it seems that football clubs in Renfrewshire are closing down teams because, under Scottish Law, they are liable for any accidents caused to young players on their way to the game, even when they are being transported by their parents.

The UK has indeed gone mad. When will a political party ( the Common Sense Party?) have a leader and the courage to reverse this destructive trend?

tony draper
14th Mar 2005, 10:57
A life sentence in the UK is a meaningless term Flappy,we had a low life who beat up and caused the death of a old lady during a burglary here last week, the Judge sentenced him to life imprisonment as well, then spoiled it somewhat by telling him he must serve at least four and a half years before being concidered for Parole.

14th Mar 2005, 11:02
Sorry, don´t buy it. Break into a building, climb up onto the roof and fall, and it´s the owners fault because it was "dangerous"?

On that basis a large number of buildings should be permanently fenced off with restricted access because soneone could fall. Multi-storey car parks should have grills fitted, every flat roofed building should grills around it and people catchers, zoo enclosures should be fenced in...

At a certain stage people have accept the consequences of their own actions.

Paranoid Parrot
14th Mar 2005, 11:20
A couple of days ago the Chief Constable of Nottingham pointed out that his officers were too busy doing paperwork to be able to clear up the murders in his area. Did the local (New Labour) MP back his expert up? Like hell he did! He called him irresponsible for pointing it out! Apparently the Chief Constable shouldn't 'whinge' about his problems but should show 'leadership' and sort out the problems (created by New Labours bureaucratic goverment). ... More of the same to come before (and probably after) the election! :*:suspect:

14th Mar 2005, 11:29
Yes, but what are we going to do about it? Are we just going to sit around and take it? Who here is involved in politics? Anyone?

Perhaps we have the politicians we deserve.

14th Mar 2005, 11:44
Flaps are you seriously suggesting the sentence was wrong ?

The only 'wrong bit' I can see is that "The judge told the boy, now 13, that he must serve at least 21 months before he could apply for parole."

This is a sick and blatently dangerous person and should be removed from the 'gene pool' (current law says we do this by locking them up) in order to protect the rest of us - and hopefully for more than 21 months.


Just an other number
14th Mar 2005, 12:23
Guardian or The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1524886,00.html) ?

14th Mar 2005, 13:16
It is sad indeed what has happened to this once great country. We must be the laughing stock of the world. Parents don't teach respect for others and their property. Out of sight, out of mind. They just don't seem to care about where they are, or what they are up to, yet scream blue murder when something happens to them. I appreciate they can't keep an eye on them all the time.
Clip round the earhole worked wonders for me, if my parents found I had been places where I shouldn't have been.

Standard Noise
14th Mar 2005, 13:37
Of course, there was a story in one paper last week reporting that after many months of research and detailed surveillance, a team from the Immigration service and the Police were getting ready to raid an address (I think twas in the midlands) where they had evidence of 18 illegal immigrants living.
Just before the raid, notice came down from on high that the raid would not be taking place in the near future cos the bosses at the Immigration service in London were more worried about causing TB and his useless layabouts adverse publicity so close to a general election than they were about dodgy foreigners abusing our country and being here illegally.

It would appear that the lunatics have taken the keys and locked us in the asylum!:sad:

14th Mar 2005, 13:50
I can remember a news story from many years ago. A joyrider won compensation from the owners of the car he stole because the seat belts were faulty and he was injured when he crashed it at high speed.

14th Mar 2005, 15:36
With a bit of luck, considering the society that the bloke lives in, that amount of money will bring him more trouble than he could imagine.Even might be the end of him, overdose himself to death, be killed for it, etc. etc..

14th Mar 2005, 16:00
Picture this along a canal in the centre of Amsterdam:

A man returns to his car after some business, finding 5 young guys leaning against his car. They claim they have secured his car from being stolen and ask € 200 for rendered service. The man tells them politely to fcuk off after which two guys try to "convince" him to pay the € 200. Of course this convincing is accompanied by some physical persuasion. Unfortunately it happens the man is an experienced Muay Thai practitioner and has these 2 down in no time. Of course they fled the scene and whaddaya know, they go directly to the police to file a complaint. End of story the man gets 3 months probation and has now a crime record.

Moral: pay or get busted, otherwise you might end in jail.

A world turned upside down.

14th Mar 2005, 16:13
Should make some of you happy.
Given that the individual concerned violently raped a women, yes I am happy.

Next comment?

Fg Off Max Stout
14th Mar 2005, 16:29
I get absolutely apoplectic seeing examples of how in the UK now nobody has to take any responsibility for their own actions or decisions. There is always someone else at fault. The USA used to be a laughing stock because of its litigation and compensation culture, but now we have embraced the very same in the UK.

The government, by promoting criminal's rights over those of victims, and allowing this blame culture to thrive, will cause this once respected nation to disappear from the world stage only to be replaced by former third world nations, who embrace a work ethic and law and order. You only have to look at the rising fortunes of India, China etc..

Companies and individuals need legal indemnity to protect them from stupid people who are unable to act with common sense or stay within the law. As far as I am concerned I am the only person responsible for my wellbeing and do not rely on other people to take care of me. If I do something stupid or illegal it is my problem. I believe that as soon as someone steps outside the law they should forego the protection that the law provides - their decision. The human rights issue has been so distorted from its original purpose (preventing genocide, torture etc), to its current purpose (the right to a TV set) that I'm sure Churchill et al would be spinning in their graves. I cannot get upset about little scrotes who get killed or injured in the course of robbing, thieving, mugging etc. I just wish Tony Martin's aim had been a little better. Controversial I know, but those two drains-on-society chose to put themselves in the line of fire by going out robbing. If I broke into a farmhouse in the middle of the night I would expect the farmer to own a shotgun and would not be surpised if he used it. I would also know who was responsible for creating the situation in which I got a buttock full of lead. Likewise, if I order a Hot Apple Pie, and am taken by surprise when I discover that it is hot, I cannot contemplate it being someone else's fault. F****ng man up and take some involvement in your own destiny.

Having been in Iraq recently and observed how people just get on with their lives and try to make the best of things amid real hardship and danger, coming back to the UK and reading of people sueing when they trip on paving slabs seems absolutely ludicrous. I'm also seething to see British lawyers exporting the compensations culture to Iraq - 'say some Squaddies roughed you up a bit, it'll be your word against theirs, you'll get British nationality, healthcare, benefits and a council house'. Here we go again.

Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh. Rant over for now.

14th Mar 2005, 18:04
There is an appropriate saying that fits the situation perfectly. "As ye sow so shall ye reap."Consider. For some years now various governments have increasingly fostered a society where benefits and rights have been allowed to run out of control.

Political correctness misuse of the race card, flagrant abuse of uncontrolled immigration has resulted in a number of situations which have over time almalgamated and are creating a very sad situation. British culture and identity is being broken down to be replaced with a mishmash of multiculturalism and nationalities who somerimes do not wish to integrate anyway. They want the benefits of living here yet retain their various languages and indentities

Education has been dumbed down in the name of equality so that now everybody can get an A levels or a University degree resulting in a devalued product that is meaningless.

Morality has been relaxed to the point where anything goes. Children are not only exposed to abnormal sexual situations, I am sorry but I do consider homosexuality as abnormal, but even encouraged in the new PC sex education lessons to give it a try. Though quite aware of situations where through genetic mishap or other circumstances individuals have arrived in that situation their normality is not the norm. They should neither be excluded or discriminated against, simply not held up as a normal alternative.

Teen single mothers are at an alltime high, we lead Europe in this particular blight. By the time their offspring are 6 or 7 the young mothers will have lost control if they ever had any, after all what example have they followed to be where they were.

Financialy under this government married couples seem to be worse off financialy than unmarried couples creating a culture where marriage a centuries old institutution is now being seemingly penalised and the old stable family unit is now couples who can and do part far more easily.

Discipline seems now to be a dirty word, schools lack the means to implement or enforce it and a new young more indisciplined society seems to be emerging and doing pretty much what it pleases and is getting away with it.

The judiciary sends very mixed messages, and Flaps I very very much doubt the boy will get life. The 16 years olds who recently drowned the young 14 year old for example will probably get off with a warning or derisory sentence, how grotesque.

Our future is being created now and the young learn by example. The examples being presently and increasingly set in todays society will result in our seed sowing making for a rather sickly crop in times to come.

But then I imagine I am probably only saying what my grandfather said years ago.

Onan the Clumsy
14th Mar 2005, 18:21
Oh yes yes yes there were no teenage mothers before 1950, nobody got robbed in the Victorian times and school was hard.

Maybe we should go to a tougher society and increase punishments like some other cultures, that way if your teenage daughter gets raped, you can kill her...even if she didn't get pregnant.

...and no I'm not saying our society is without problem, I'm just reacting to the same old tired News of the World based argument. I'd like to see some rational perspective instead.

Consider this, most of these thing that have been said here, were said by your parents about your own generation. :}

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

tony draper
14th Mar 2005, 18:28
We could start by turning the Police force back into a law enforcement organisation instead of uniformed social workers which is the roll they are expected to play now, let the chaps plant a few sized ten boots on a few arses again, scrap the feckwit rules of evidence that favour the gutter scum.
Another good idea would be to sack every Judge and Magistrate in the country tear down the ancient unwieldy legal system and re build it from scratch.
Just because its been around for 800 years does not necesarily mean it has merit, I am sick of people wiffling on about Magna Carta, that was drawn up by the Barons for the Barons and the big chaps up in the Castle, and **** the poor buggas toiling in the fields.
Systems should be torn down and rebuilt every now and again otherwise we finish up with the chaos we have now.

14th Mar 2005, 18:45
Drapes, eal, Paterbrat, both the award mentioned in the first post and the life sentence mentioned in my post, go against what I percieve as just and civilised.
You do not financially reward criminals like was done with that compensation award.
You do not imprison children and give them "life". That the child in question needs to be removed from society I do not dispute. That “life” does not mean just that, as you have kindly explained, is something I am well aware of. But to my mind, a civilised nation does not imprison children.

Our history teacher once read us a letter and asked us who we though had written it.
Its author complained about the lack of discipline in today’s youth. The alarming growth of crime in the city of Amsterdam.Declining morals leading to premature sexual debuts and teenage pregnancy and many other subjects that form the mainstay of JB threads.
Our class decided it must have been written by the then major of Amsterdam.
Turned out the letter had been written by Piet Heyn (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/5213/heyn.htm) somewhere around 1620. :ugh:
I hear you Onan. ;)

14th Mar 2005, 19:01
got to agree the UK went mad some time ago, as for a 12 year old raping his teacher? Life....I can think of better things that would prevent him re-offending, but then the PC brigade would ask what about his rights to father children.

14th Mar 2005, 20:13
flaps said...

both the award mentioned in the first post and the life sentence mentioned in my post, go against what I percieve as just and civilised.

flaps...that's a sweeping comment....I agree that the 'compo' culture is a problem but to say 'the award mentioned in the first post.....go against what I perceive as just and civilised" in itself unjust unless you are privvy to ALL the details of the case.

To use an argument of a nine year old falling thru an unsecured roof and a rapist is disingenuous in the extreme.

It is PRECISELY the attitude of not judging each case on its merits that causes the culture to snowball.

14th Mar 2005, 20:45
SLFguy, you are quite correct in saying that a judgement based on the limited facts as presented here is bound to be lacking.

But the information here is all I have. And based on what is here, the outcome of both cases offends me.

Flying Lawyer
14th Mar 2005, 21:35
Flaps You do not imprison children and give them "life". That the child in question needs to be removed from society I do not dispute. That “life” does not mean just that, as you have kindly explained, is something I am well aware of. But to my mind, a civilised nation does not imprison children.

We don't imprison children and, to be fair to the journo, the news report doesn't mention prison.
The boy will be detained in a secure unit for children of his age where they'll continue his education and try to deal with his problems.
There is an element of punishment (rightly so, IMHO) - hence the minimum period of detention set by the judge - but the emphasis is on trying to sort out his problems so he can be released and not be a danger to others.

14th Mar 2005, 21:37
Unfortunately these examples of society turned on its head are now so regular that I can barely bring myself to sigh, let alone get angry. Here's one in today's paper that is affecting some good friends who live in the area, a care home where the residents are totally out of control and making their neighbours life a living hell. Note the comments from the authorities who are supposedly in charge!

article (http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=1084&ArticleID=967107)

TEENAGERS from a children's home are making the lives of almost 200 nearby residents a misery, it was claimed yesterday.
Residents who live near Westgarth children's home in Victoria Road, Elland, Calderdale, say they have to contend with youths shouting abuse, throwing stones and spitting at them.
They say they have suffered years of frustration and annoyance and want urgent action.


Calderdale's director of health and social care, Philip Lewer, said the home could not close or move because the council had a responsibility to ensure the children were safely housed.
Coun Graham Reason, portfolio holder for health and social care, said: "I don't know what people expect, to be honest. We have a statutory duty to fulfil.
"Society must hold its hands up: we can't chastise them, we can't curfew them and we can't lock these kids in. They have rights – thanks to today's society."

14th Mar 2005, 22:47
Several of the examples quoted above smell strongly of urban myth to me.

If you dig out your Latin textbooks you can read extremely similar stories from 100BC. Some things don't change.

Not saying it's all hunky-dory now (and those interminable ads for B*G*R Bloomer Personal Injury Solicitors make me wince) but nor was it all so brilliant 100, 500, 2000, or 5000 years ago.

14th Mar 2005, 22:52
flaps... no offense intended but...

no complete facts available = no judgement permissable

Flying Lawyer...

am curious ...can a minor be sectioned in the same way as an adult?

CarltonBrowne the FO
15th Mar 2005, 00:38
Perhaps Flying Lawyer can confirm or refute this, but I thought in the UK, prisoners on a life sentence are never given parole as such, but are released on licence. This may seem a meaningless distinction, but AFAIK it means that the released prisoner can be returned to prison at little or no notice, for even the most trivial of offences. Admittedly, very similar to parole- but it lasts for life.
Flaps, whether one calls it imprisonment or hospitalisation, in the case of a child who is already a danger to those around him- what is the alternative? I got the impression that he was being detained for treatment; I hope the treatment is successful, and that he can become a safe member of society. If he cannot be cured, should he be released at age 18, grown to full adult strength, with no criminal record, and ready to harm someone else? Perhaps it is better to keep him safe, in as benign an environment as possible, where he cannot do any more harm.

15th Mar 2005, 01:53
It seems to be assummed that the kid was carrying out a crime. He was only getting a lost football for Chrissakes.


15th Mar 2005, 02:01
Unfortunately the two examples given here are not the best.

The boy rapist was already receiving 'one-on-one' lessons in a special needs class, which afforded him the opportunity to carry out the assault in the first place. His 'treatment' for the problems which the judge acknowledged "were not of his own making" will now take place in a more secure environment and with much closer supervision, so as to protect his teachers and medical/psychology staff from further harm. The 'Life Sentence' has the effect of ensuring that he can be properly contained and controlled until such time as he is no longer a threat to others. Whether the boy's age of twelve years or his mental condition is appropriate to the assigning of criminal responsibility is another matter, for professional discussion in other forums; That he should be removed from society during at least the earleir part of his treatment is undoubtedly the proper course.

The other example of compensation is a well established point of law. Thirty years ago while studying employment law in a training course, the barrister who led the study group used a similar 1962 case as an example to illustrate the finer points of the Factories Act - that all machinary on the premises must be fenced or located so as to be as safe to all persons on the premises (by default, including trespassers) as if they were so fenced. Maybe a change in the law, excluding trespassers and persons with criminal intent from all right to compensation for injury, is long overdue. This isn't the place for that discussion. Write to your MP or even better, put down a question for him to answer at the election campaign in a month or two.

[Sorry to disagree with you Flaps, but be assured that I do remain a bit of a 'Lovey" at heart. Its just the Organizational Behaviourist bit of me showing through. Ain't Psychology wonderful?]

15th Mar 2005, 09:16
FL, thanks for clearing that up. I gues I should have realised that it was a matter of wording rather than actual practice.

Blackie, SLFguy, none taken! ;)
But I don't agree with SLF's no complete facts available = no judgement permissable. We seldom if ever have all the facts available in these matters. If I understand you correctly, you mean to say that we therefore should not make judgements on them?
I think that if we try to get as much info as we can, we can make those judgements. As long as we realise that they can be faulty and are willing to adjust them as more information comes to us.
But maybe I am indulging in semantics here?

What is more important I think, is trying to think of ways to change the way we raise our kids. I must confess that I really have not a clue. Having tried my damnedest to install in our own kids a sense of responisibility towards others and society as a whole, I heard our eldest arrive home last night at 2300 hrs with her car stereo blaring so loudly that I could hear it through the wall. No doubt she woke up various kids in the street with her racket.

It's only a small example and inoffensive, and by and large they and their friends seem good young-adults. Sunday morning they were all up at 0900 and went to collect money for Kids with Cancer at the annual Ski jumping competition in Oslo for example.
But they should be "good", with the priviliged upbringing they have had. Parents moderately smart, interested in their offspring, prioritising kids over career and still married. No money worries, fairly strict regime when kids were small and lots of TLC always.
Compare that to the upbringing of children from poor, not very smart parents, broken homes adding extra stress... what can we reasonably expect??

If you do not need to exhibit a certain behaviour pattern* in society as an adult to make sure you have a roof over your head and food for your kids, but instead can behave any which way and still get those essentials, what hope is there really?

We humans do not tend to good I don't think. Bad is much more fun and less effort. If neither upbringing nor society conditions us to be "good" we have the result we see everywhere around us.
What to do? No idea.

Post too long.

* Be polite, show respect, work hard and aspire to improve yourself and the life of your kids. Be able to defer gratification.

15th Mar 2005, 13:01
Flaps agreed with your following post, on reflection mine was a bit hasty and off the cuff, a gut reaction. Totaly agree with your last. Example to the fore from very young and discipline applied young lasts for ever. The definition of discipline is a weighty tome in itself and will be debated hotly, my simplest opinion is that at presently it is widely, both diluted to innefectiveness or sorely lacking.

Onan you obviously ignored or didn't read my very last comment so the sleeping icons most appropriate do carry on. :rolleyes:
Yes indeed there were all these and more ills years ago, we just seem to be replacing or adding to them with some nonsense resposes.Common sense appears to be in decline and replaced with a pronounced sense of PC. It effects everything.

Send Clowns
15th Mar 2005, 16:42
Looking at Smoketoomuch's quote, can we just tell our politicians the simple, unavoidable fact that children do not have rights!!!!

Every "right" is interlinked with responsibilities, and fail in the latter and the former is forfeit. This connection, which to me is obvious, has gradually fallen apart over the years, and we see the result. Children cannot take resposibility (hence the child rapist will be cared for as much as punished), therefore have no rights. We all, as adults, have a duty to any child we encounter, duty is a one-way obligation, unlike responsibility which confers, as we have said, rights. The exact nature of the duty depends on our relationship, if any, with the child, but children are not protected by rights but by the duty of adults towards them.

This is just one of the ways that we are harming children and their development to adulthood and destroying childhood by treating children as "young adults". They are not. Treat them as children, protect them as children, not in the same way as we protect adults.

Why do we let people insist on their rights when they refuse to take responsibility? Why do we extend rights of an individual to the absurd, yet fail to protect genuine rights of the group they thus harm which is after all made up of individuals? Do the people who give these rights, and those that wrote the European Convention on Human Rights have absolutely no sense nor connection with reality or understanding of human nature or the world? Why do our politicians bow to stupid, ignorant, politically left or central (but I cannot bring myself to call them liberal, as they are profoundly illiberal), self-appointed watchdogs of every small supposed injustice? Why can we not allow personal responsibility to be the first duty of everyone who is mentally capable of taking such responsibilty, and teh first assumption unless a good reason is forthcoming otherwise?

simon brown
15th Mar 2005, 17:11
We need a hard leader and if that upsets the fluffies then tough. I didnt agree with Thatchers policies a lot of the time, but believe you me if she was incharge there wouldnt be any of this PC nonsense.

The Police need to be able to put the boot in to mindless thuggery, householders should be able to put the boot in to burglars and the legal profession should be very tightly regulated, so cases where you fall through a roof whilst "on the rob " or trespassing are laughed at and dismissed outright and my tax isnt wasted paying drug dealing scum offspring compensation.

I want to be able to punch the drunken student who decided to kick my wingmirror in, and get away with it. I want the same benefits a Kosovan family gets when they come over here, if I lose my job, having paid 10s of thousands in tax over the years. I want to be able to fly the flag of St George without some fluffy PC type telling me I cant

I dont want my Poll Tax rise to subsidise the pensions of public sector workers whom if they dont like their Ts and Cs expect us to bail them out of their 75% final salary pension schemes.Get real , get a life and get another job if your not happy, just like those of us who have to provide our own pensions out side the public sector.

I dont want my local taxes paying for Gypsies romany lifestyles where they think they can just pitch up anywhere at our expense

I dont want Parliamentary time wasted on trivia like fox hunting when there are far more important issues to be addressed.

As a law abiding hardworking taxpaying member of society I dont want to be treated as a cash cow and with contempt by the w*****s running this country, whom want to be liked by everyone and pander to anyone with the loudest voice. Those of us who just work hard, get on with life and can accept responsibility for our own actions seem to be penalised in this Blairite Assylum

15th Mar 2005, 23:11
SB - agree, nicely put.
This country has gone far too far down the PC road. Our President has all the wrong priorities. Cash that is thrown at the work avoiding classes could be much better spent. And the high level of cash thrown at far too many "visitors" should be controlled. It should be a privalege to come here as a foreigner, not a right.

16th Mar 2005, 03:06
The trouble with "rights" is that someone has to provide them... and that usually ends up being the tax payer.

No one has the "right" to a job.
No one has the "right" to the dole.
et al

All these are privelidges and should be treated as such.

Please don't bring up the "rights" to good health, safe working environment etc. They're not rights - with health it's God given; and with work - it's a condition of employment. You can figure the rest.

And I believe in doing what you like, when you like, where you like so long as you do not offend any person in any way. If it's really naughty - do it out of sight of any one... or do it with like minded people.

16th Mar 2005, 07:53
The UK seems to have become a bit pathetic in recent years. Look at numerous threads on this site, for example, and read examples of what I can only term as pathetic.

• A suing culture has arrived – avoid responsibility for your own actions, let someone else hold your hand
• Immigration seems to have got out of hand and associated handouts are enormous. Come and live in the UK, we’ll house, feed and pay you! What is the projected population mix 10 years from now? Who will bother to work to pay for it all?
• Political correctness has gone mad
• Discipline in schools seems to be getting worse by the day and punishment is not allowed. The belt or cane generally did much more good than harm and whilst there were probably some who abused it, I think there is more resulting abuse from not teaching discipline
• Policemen get taken to court by kids when they’ve given them a cuff around the ear
• Schools and teachers are increasingly unwilling to organise outings because of the risk of legal action – no school trips to beaches, forests, rivers, whatever. Criminal to make kids grow up like that
• School sports – several schools in Scotland have sold their sports grounds as they are no longer required!

I guess this has been a gradual erosion of reality, but if the trend continues where are we going to be in 5 or 10 years time? Plus how much of it has come from our own governments and how much is due to European government? I fear Brussels has a lot to answer for.
If it is at least partly from Europe is it worse in the UK than say in Australia or Canada or NZ?
Bad news I reckon.

16th Mar 2005, 09:14
Yesterday in Denmark two youths with a Turkish immigrant background lost their appeal against deportation in the Danish High Court. They had been found gulity of murder, and sentenced to a jail term. On completion of the jail term they are to be deported to Turkey.

Both youths have been brought up in Denmark; one was born here, the other arrived as a three year old, but both retained their Turkish citizenship.

The law allows that any foreign national convicted of a serious offence can be deported after serving their sentence.

The defence in this case argued , unsuccesssfully, that as they had spent all of their childhood and juvenile life in Denmark, they should be considered as being Danish.

Double whammy, or injustice ?

IMHO the courts have got it right. Despite spending years in Denmark (many of them in correctional institutions) they have not taken any steps to assimilate into society. They both have a lengthy criminal record, including violence, and have not shown any remorse about the murder or the jail sentence. Only on hearing they were to be deported (as foreign nationals) did they show any emotion.

Windy Militant
16th Mar 2005, 09:23
An idle muse, If it's European directives that are turning Britain into a crime ridden wasteland full of drunken amoral teenaged mothers and feckless binge drinking chav scum, then why isn't the rest of Europe plagued with the same blight?

Is it because the rest of Europe disregard said directives and do what they've traditionally done.

I've not spent a great deal of time over that side of the channel but the few brief forays I have had have given me an impression that there's far more civic pride and community spirit over there.
Something that we seem to have lost in Britain.

16th Mar 2005, 09:54
Dear all,

A report was published last week (I will try and find a link to it) that showed that the level of externality of young people today has increased dramatically in comparison with a similar studies done 10, 20 and 30 years ago.

To explain, Externality is the practice of blaming external factors for downturns in our personal life. For example, bad exam results, poor job prospects etc.

Therefore what this means is that kids today are more likely to blame someone or something else for their problems.

Now I have to agree that kids today are worse than when I was a boy HOWEVER, the adults are the same.

The level of externality shown on this thread alone is proof of that.

I have in the past asked how many of the "talking heads" on here who complain about our politicos, have actually bothered to stand for public office. At that time the answer was a resounding none.

Now before you ask, I have. I did not get elected but at least I tried. I got my voice heard for a short time and I actually managed to change somethings for the better.

Come the next local elections in Scotland I will stand again.

So to those who like to complain that this country is going to hell in a handcart, what are you doing about it? It is easy to complain from the comfort of your PC.



16th Mar 2005, 10:04
I dont want my local taxes paying for Gypsies romany lifestyles where they think they can just pitch up anywhere at our expense

That's the problem. They don't "think they can just pitch up anywhere". They know they can.

I've just had planning permission turned down for a conservatory, as it would have been 8 inches longer than council limits. ((even though both of my neighbours approved, as I would have demolished the old conservatory, which is a wreck).

But, it my local town, a "traveller" camp has just been set up on a council owned park, and they have now been given permission to stay for at least 6 months:mad:

Tonic Please
16th Mar 2005, 10:38
People are saying to those who are not doing anything about this to go and do something, but not telling us how to do it.

How do we "do something about it"?

Glad I'm moving to France :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Canary Boy
16th Mar 2005, 10:51
There have been some problems with the local yoof (hoodies, baseball caps, Burberry – stereotypical or what!) Mindless vandalism and some instances of violence against local residents. The ages of said reprobates varies from 10ish to more than 18. The council have been less than helpful with deterrence measures (primarily CCTV), citing a lack of funds. (Costs a fe**in’ fortune to repair the damage mind). Some weeks ago, after yet another incident, the police arrived and a few residents went walkabout with them with the intention of trying to identify the culprits. The PC found a likely-looking candidate (about 14) and asked him to stop. “Woffor” came the reply. “I want to ask you some questions” says the PC. “Where were you 15 minutes ago?” “Why the **** should I tell you” comes the witty rejoinder. And so it went on. The PC was, understandably, getting very hot under the collar, but felt there was little he could do. When we returned to the scene of the incident he confided in me that, in his opinion, the best resolution was for the residents to have an animated discussion with any offenders – just don’t leave any DNA traces! :ok:

tony draper
16th Mar 2005, 10:59
Yup, time we had a few of those death squads patroling our streets.

16th Mar 2005, 11:14
Windy Militant,

You are right. I spend a considrable amount of time in Europe. I am generally anti the European Union ( corrupt bunch of incompetent thieves unfit to govern anyone, a bad idea) but very pro European culture and people. Other European countries have two things we no longer have:

1. Support for stable two-parent families at the centre of fiscal and social policy.

2. Strong Christianity ( or stronger than here anyway).

It has been obvious to me for a very long time that the British, or a large section of the British, have become the new barbarians. We ( or many of us) are scruffy, rude, ignorant, slobbish and yobbish and yet convinced of our superiority. I cringe when I am abroad.

A few years ago I was in Prague for a couple of days. We were having a late lunch al fresco on a warm sunny afternoon in the Old Town Square, drinking in the atmosphere and watching the world go by. The we heard it in the distance and coming our way: " 'ere we go, 'ere we go" with associated loud foul language.

Amidst all that style and beauty, it was utterly depressing.

Lack of time prevents me from posting more just now but I shall return to this thread when the opportunity arises.

16th Mar 2005, 11:46
Agree with Send Clowns.


a civilised nation does not imprison children.

Surely, in a 'civilised nation, 'children' don't go around raping other members of society...?

16th Mar 2005, 12:55
Strong Christianity ( or stronger than here anyway).
I've said this before, I know, but before anybody even thinks of promoting any organised religion as being a good thing, they need to take a long, hard, cold, calculating look at the cruelty and aggression promoted by its followers throughout the ages. Followers of this particular religion are among the prime offenders in that regard.

This is another typical example of the way we love to blame other people/circumstances/events or whatever, for the choices we make. If a person chooses to drink, misbehave, commit crimes, take drugs or indulge in any other antisocial behaviour, it is that person's choice and not attributable to any external factors. People always have the option of choosing a different course of action.

I am sick of hearing the way we accept even the most specious of reasoning for excusing the worst in people. It is precisely this mentality which has given rise to the "It's all your fault" attitude which seems to be taking over from accountability and common sense.

Support for stable two-parent families
How about support for stable ONE parent families? What has the presence of two parents got to do with it? Lots of people lose their partner for one reason or another but the surviving spouse goes on to bring up normal, well-adjusted children on their own.

Send Clowns
16th Mar 2005, 13:50

We are externalising these problems, but that is because they are caused externally, by people in authority allowing others to externalise their problems. I take responsibility for myself and the consequences of my actions. Huge numbers of people in this country are allowed to abdicate those responsibilities. That is allowed by the centre-left politicians and by bureaucrats and lawyers whos authority depends on taking people's responsibility away.

While society is run by large, interventionist government there is no way to address these problems. They are caused by the bureaucray that by the nature of the majority of people wishing to work within it, and by the nature of bureaucracy, tends to cause rather than reduce these problems. The only thing I could do to fight that is to stand for the Conservative party and limitation of intervention by government (often on behalf of some single-issue lobby) in our lives.

The problem is that the assumption across huge areas of influence within the government and the state-run media is that large government is a good thing, and any reduction in state spending must, by definition, be harmful to our society. The people involved often have a great interest in keeping up the rising the state power. We have a government that uses our money to lie to us, to gerrymander and to bully the media. We have a BBC, the most powerful media organisation in the UK that shares the basic, centre-left (I cannot bring myself to call this garbage "liberal", as it is profoundly illiberal) assumptions that cause these problems to such an ingrained degree that they never question them. Before you suggest I do somethhing about that, I have tried to complain about the most shocking BBC politicisation, and they didn't even have the courtesy to reply to my email.

16th Mar 2005, 14:27
Ah, a topic I feel very strongly about :E .

If I get started ranting I'll never be able to stop so I'll resist the temptation and sit here reading the posts, quietly seething at the same time :E ...

Suffice to say, as soon as I have the funds I'll be outta this country pronto.


cessna l plate
16th Mar 2005, 20:30
IMHO the bulk of the problem lies in the EU, and thier endless directives.

For instance, I work in the road transport industry. Traditionally, this industry works long hours, 70 per week is not unheard of at all. But people are free to make a choice, and if they want to drive for a living and work 70 hours that is up to them,obviously they will be well paid for working that long every week.

Now we have the new working time directive. 48 hours per week average, no more than 60 in any given week at all.

Very nice, allows a good return to the work/life balance. But what about the poor sods who depend on the overtime to pay the bills, now they aren't allowed to make a choice, the EU are telling them that they cannot earn what they want. Work in any other industry, and you can help yourself (within reason) Meanwhile a haulier (whose margins are as tight as a sharks a**e at the best of times) is now facing the prospect of more outlay. He will have a contract that may require 65 hours work per week. To fulfill that contract he now needs to pay another driver (of which there aren't that many about anymore) a full weeks wage (48 hours) to cover 17 hours work.

This will undoubtedly kill the industry, and this is just one example of Brussels intefering in our way of life, there are many many more.

For my part, the first political party that will stand up and say, "stuff Europre, we will run our country how we want" get my vote.

Don't get me wrong, I dont want a return to the excesses of the police in the 60's and 70's, we do need safeguards, but the police need less paperwork, and will gain a lot more public sympathy if they stop persecuting the motorist, who is a soft and easy target.

I could go on, but lock 'em up properly, look at the military prison, on-one wants to go there, let those guys run the state prisons. Bring back corporal punishment in schools. Put a limit on compo claims, if it under a set amount, then no case. Prosecute the ambulance chasers.

Above all else, what this country needs a very large injection of common sense!!!!

Rant over

16th Mar 2005, 23:30
BHR - "I have in the past asked how many of the "talking heads" on here who complain about our politicos, have actually bothered to stand for public office. At that time the answer was a resounding none"..........

You suggest that if we are not happy with our government we should all stand for public office?!
The basis of a democratic country is not that every individual with an opinion becomes a politician but that everyone has a vote - and uses it. I am unhappy with the UK having laws imposed on it from Europe, I do not like the present government or the way the UK is going - but I certainly do not want to become an elected member of a public body. I already have a job. Because I do not like Brussels, however, and many other things I will ensure I use my vote.

Voting apathy is a major problem, if we achieved 100% turnout a lot could change. That is why all elections count - local, Westminster, Scottish parliament, Europe, etc - if you don't vote you can't whine.

17th Mar 2005, 05:40
For instance, I work in the road transport industry.

I also work in the road transport industry.

Traditionally, this industry works long hours, 70 per week is not unheard of at all.

Neither is 80hrs+...

But people are free to make a choice, and if they want to drive for a living and work 70 hours that is up to them,

Totally agree.

obviously they will be well paid for working that long every week.

Errr ?? Is there some magic well-paying haulage company in this country that none of us know about then ?!

Now we have the new working time directive. 48 hours per week average, no more than 60 in any given week at all.

It's been put back to the 2nd week in April now already. I can see there being further put-backs to be honest, hopefully scrapping the whole thing altogether.

Very nice, allows a good return to the work/life balance.


But what about the poor sods who depend on the overtime to pay the bills, now they aren't allowed to make a choice, the EU are telling them that they cannot earn what they want. Work in any other industry, and you can help yourself (within reason)

Agreed. My argument too.

Meanwhile a haulier (whose margins are as tight as a sharks a**e at the best of times) is now facing the prospect of more outlay. He will have a contract that may require 65 hours work per week. To fulfill that contract he now needs to pay another driver (of which there aren't that many about anymore) a full weeks wage (48 hours) to cover 17 hours work.

There ISN'T a shortage of drivers in the UK - it's complete rubbish. The problem the hauliers have got is that none of them will pay their drivers a decent wage so the drivers have got fed up of it and all the other shit that comes with the job and have left the industry to take up other careers.

For those of you that aren't drivers, would you pay £2500 to get your artic' licence and then work driving a 44 tonne outfit for £7.00 per hour ? Answer = no.

Our gaffer turned round to us a few weeks back saying he's packing up because he can no longer afford the ever rising cost of diesel and barrel-bottom rates so we're all on a month's notice. We've since found out that he's got 4 Polish drivers starting for him when we leave who'll be paid around half the wages we were on.

Can't blame the Poles though - they're only coming here to better their own lifestyles - it's the Government that's at fault for letting it happen. I reckon in 5-10 years time you won't find an English wagon driver on the roads.


Send Clowns
17th Mar 2005, 09:39

If you object to the way your emplyer has treated you (and I am not saying you do; it may be that you agree he cannot earn enough to pay you, and he may as well be left alone to employ someone cheaper as you would gain nothing by insisting he pays you the higher rate and goes out of business!) then it may be that he is acting against employment law and you can take him to tribunal. He cannot make you redundant then replace you.

By the way there are a fair few people here who have paid up to about £55,000 for their training and earn less than £7 per hour! I get £15 per flight hour as an instructor (not my only job, but it is for some here!). Realistic minimum of 2 hours at work per flight hour on average fair-weather day. Count the hours I am in when waiting for weather or next student during a gap in the programme, or when the student fails to turn up, I probably earn between £6 and £7 per hour. It can be a tough and stressful way to earn that too, and work is very seasonal.

17th Mar 2005, 15:08
Degeneration in the UK.
A random thought that had ocurred was that children learn by example. During the last two world wars there was a drastic culling of generaly males an event which has quite dramatic effect on surviving wives and offspring. Even returning survivors suffering from varying degrees of mental trauma and damage would in their way impact on their offspring. Can major behavioural changes caused by these have slowly rippled out and had far reaching effects on succeeding generations. The other thought is the example set by the gradual fracturing of the stable family unit increased divorce rates, fewer marriages, increasing numbers of teen single mums, influx of many different cultures not assimilating but conflicting instead, all contibuting to a deteriorating capability for demonstration to the new future citizens as to just what is acceptable workable or desirable.
Or is it just a society here that has evolved to a position that is different to the one we have been most accustomed to and comfortable with

17th Mar 2005, 16:05

"Or is it just a society here that has evolved to a position that is different to the one we have been most accustomed to and comfortable with"

Frighteningly enough this might be the closest to the truth.



17th Mar 2005, 16:22

..before anyone thinks of promoting any organised religion as a good thing...

I wasn't promoting Christianity, I was merely making a valid observation. As to the strife and bloodshed, well, that was a few hundred years ago. It had more to do with the corruption of rulers than with religion per se. As soon as kings and emperors worked out that religion had gripped the people, they realised that the way to control the people was to control religion. It led to trouble.

Christianity and Judaism have given us the moral codes by which we have lived for centuries. However much some people may not like that, it is undeniable. Although I am generally agnostic I do know a number of people who follow a religious life to some extent or another. I am struck by how nice, how happy and how community-minded they are compared to the general population.

CarltonBrowne the FO
17th Mar 2005, 17:30
Is the concept of maximum duty hours for lorry drivers something we should be blaming the EU for? Besides, tachographs in the cab have been required since the 1970s.

cessna l plate
17th Mar 2005, 19:38
Yes, Brussels is to blame for limiting a drivers working day, the whole working time directive is thier idea, and as such has never been seen by parliament, but is being installed through the back door of a statutory instrument.

Yes, we have the tacho in the cab, and the drivers hours regs came in mid 80's I believe. These limit the amount of driving you can do, along with limits for rest and break periods. This has been more than adequate for road safety issues, and still is!!!

I am personally not affected by the regulations, owing to the job that I do. However, I have a stand in driver who covers my holidays, sickness and so-on. Normally he carries out an administration and repair job, but jumps in the cab when needed. Because he will drive for more than 11 days in a 17 week period, he falls into the WTD, even when he is in the office.
As a direct result of this, the 5 hours overtime that he gets every week will stop, and his wages will go down by £50 per week. Can you afford to lose £200 per month income???

His only choice is to resign from any driving duties, he can then work for as long as he likes. I've tried to find loop-holes that we can get him through, but to no avail. The new regs even count a weeks holiday as 48 hours worked that week, is this silly or what???

If you read the entire text of the document, it instantly squeals of red tape and beaurocratic bull!! And this is only one example of them telling how we are going to live our lives, perhaps Flying Lawyer could tell us if it is challengeable under Human Rights rules???

We can no longer hit kids in schools, because Europe says so!! We give legal aid and compensation to people who blatantly don't deserve it, because EU says so. How many of the freedoms we all currently enjoy in the skies are going to be curtailed, beacuse Europe says so?? JAA was a mess from start to finish, and there is no indication that EASA will be any better, only this particular mutt has teeth as well.

The entire European organisation is obsessed with proving and justifying it's existence, and should be scrapped totally.

By the way, if you earn £7 per hour and work 80 hours per week, surely this adds up to £560 per week? I wouldn't call that a pittance, and its more than I get as a transport manager!!!!

17th Mar 2005, 20:26
What about this?? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/shipman/Story/0,2763,1440095,00.html)

"Shipman widow may keep victims' wedding rings"

CarltonBrowne the FO
18th Mar 2005, 00:51
cessna plate, you missed my point entirely. I think there should be limits on the amount of duty time a lorry driver can do.
Given the carnage that even a Land Rover can cause if the driver falls asleep, the concept that lorry drivers should be allowed adequate time off seems like a good idea! Aircrew have duty time limits, as well as limits on the hours they can fly- these are to prevent employers allocating excessive standby periods, among other things.
As I understand it, the 48 hour working week was introduced to try and prevent unscrupulous employers putting pressure on employees to work unreasonable hours.

18th Mar 2005, 15:29

What has the presence of two parents got to do with it?

Quite a lot, actually. Of course it's tragic when a family is deprived of one parent due to illness or accident and I do know a little about that. What I was referring to is mistaken fiscal and social policy which positively encourages people not to marry or divorce at the drop of a hat and young girls to have babies out of wedlock and without visible means of support other than state benefits. The last is a burden on the rest of us which we could well do without.

18th Mar 2005, 15:36
Cheerio, have a heart Nice to see someone getting the benefit of an open jobs market. Those Maltese bus drivers are probably only wanting an opportunity to escape their wives / husbands...and get paid for it. Malta must be about the only country in the EU where divorce doesn't exist?! :confused: :uhoh:

18th Mar 2005, 16:17
I understand the points you are making, Wingswinger. I do. But I have extreme difficulty coming to terms with the attitude of the many people who refer to themselves as "Christian" and whose attitude towards their fellow human beings is anything but. The arrogance demonstrated by those who believe that their religion is the only "right" one is usually in conflict with the generosity of spirit said to have been taught by the person (Christ) they profess to follow.

It has been my experience that there are more prejudiced, judgemental and bigoted people within the ranks of organised religions than without and there is more of the "holier than thou" attitude than there is sympathy and kindness.

I do dispute the idea that the only appropriate place for having children is within a marriage. It may well be the ideal situation in many regards but that is far from always being the case. A single parent is a single parent regardless of the cause and it is not for us to point the finger at those who are in that situation by choice rather than by accident. All are equally capable of bringing up their children to be responsible, caring adults. On the other hand, many children with behavioural problems have been brought up within the traditional two parent family.

18th Mar 2005, 19:20
Blue Diamond in my previous post I had refrained from commenting directly reference your very valid point concerning single families. It is undoubtedly a quite common event in which a perfectly well adjusted individual emerges with solid social values and goes on to be a model citizen.

It would however also seem that over a long period of time that the 'normal' mode is a male female couple bringing up offspring. I discount the multitude of possible variations that have certainly existed since the dawn of time and simply zone in on a concept practiced from Kalahari bushmen, South American rain forest tribesmen, Eskimos, and peoples pretty much anywhere else in the globe you may care to look.
What is certain is that from their early start babies and young children are sponges soaking up information at a dramatic rate. Their primary source to begin with will be their parents. That behaviour and interaction between the two sexes required to produce the observing learning offspring is if you like the bedrock upon all else is built.
Judging by last night program on parents some of that example despite being male female, supposedly by my own criteria 'normal', it was evident that their are some rather, dare I say dissapointing examples being set. A good point made in the programwas was, who teaches parenting?
There are no real formal courses. Dr Benjamin Spock who had for many years been regarded as the parenting Guru to America made the rather folorn, I thought, comment just before he died " Dear me I must have contributed quite a lot to the brattishness of US society" or words to that effect if I have misquoted him.
The point I think being, too much submissiveness to children and 'reasoning' with those not yet equiped to 'reason' rather than 'guiding' and 'instructing' with reason, can result in children taking over with disasterous and predictable results. Shout and swear at them is an example they will follow. NO should mean NO and not 'with a bit of effort this means nothing. Discipline is required and if applied early when force is simply not required and applied well, one will find in the main that when older children will respond well to reason when they are at an age where violence is counterproductive and sometimes not possible were one to even try.

Our society is influenced by all of us young and old, the present young can will and are having an increasingly large effect on it young as they are. Outspoken violent, abusive, schoolskipping and therefore uneducated, scofflaw individuals always have and always will have an inversely larger effect than their numbers.

Since I have already rambled on far too long I will spare you my opinions on religion just now.

cessna l plate
18th Mar 2005, 19:55
I agree that there needs to be a safeguard for employees, to prevent total carnage on the road. Surely the drivers hours regulations cover this, by specifying daily and weekly rest periods.

The really silly part of the whole transport WTD is the fact that the drivers hours regs are to run along side it. Surely rather than making an already complicated issue totally incomprehnsible, the sensible thing would be to issue a new set of drivers hours regs, that eceryone can understand. Methinks this would be too easy for Brussels.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire UK is a joke, and a sick one at that, although the conservatives have said that if they get in they will ammend or even scrap the human rights legislation that has brought this country to the ransom of the selfish, lazy and downright hardfaced scum that will put in a claim for anything.

Whoever heard of a prisoner being able to sue the prison for anything to do with his being there??? Yet the loopy sods in the High Court and beyond allow this sort of crap to go through. Whatever happened to common sense??

The only thing that keeps me here is the fact that the wife wont move abroad. For some strange reason, she actually like this country. I used to be proud to be British, but what does it mean these days?? That we live in the worlds dumping ground?? That society is a joke?? That our justice system (and this is the major cause of all the posts on this thread in the first place) used to be the worlds finest, and yet is now the vehicle for anyone to challenge anything done agaiinst them, especially if that means telling them what to do??

Sadly, the time is coming when we will return to the dark ages. The police are powerless to stop Yoofs causing problems, and when they can get the little sods into court, they are then virtually let off. How long before we have vigilante squads roaming our streets at night?? Before "travellers" are removed from their camps by a couple of hundred gun toating locals?? And so-on.

If the establishment doesn't wake up, and very soon, this is what we will have, and I for one will not hesitate in taking action against those who affect my way of life

Rant over......... for now!!

18th Mar 2005, 21:32

If you think that the EU working time directive is mad, you need to see how completely Bonkers Dutch Mining Law is...:mad: :mad(This is the rules & Regs limiting the amount of time -not necessarily working- workers are allowed on Offshore Platforms per week/Month/Year etc..)

cessna l plate
19th Mar 2005, 13:16
Does this rule come direct from the Dutch government, or is it a result of an edict from Brussels???

Let's face it, when they can tell us what shape a banana has to be, then a few complicated rules over offshore work is a cinch

The whole point of the posts I have put on this thread are this, we the British people are no longer masters of our own destiny, no matter which party are in No 10.

At the risk of sound anti Europe (which I'm not, the idea of a few nations grouping together to achieve a common goal is good) and without prejudice to any other nationalilties reading this, in the first 50 years of the last century millions of British Servicemen gave thier lives in order that we in Britain remained free, and yet for the last 50 years the hard won battles have been forgotten and most of the power that UK parliament had has been eroded to faceless, unelected red tape merchants in Brussels, and we are powerless to do anything about it.

As I said earlier, the first political party that promises to get us out of this, and instill some common sense into our lives will get my vote, and a lot more besides!!

19th Mar 2005, 16:29
My Tort Law lecturer made a point of flagging up this case last week.

There is clearly something wrong with the law when a 'feckless little git' gets half a million pounds for head injuries sustained when trespassing on private property while injured victims of serious crimes have to make do with £10-£12K from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board.

The old law said that trespassers could not claim for injuries sustained when trespassing. That changed some time ago (1970s I think) when a Judge ruled that an occupier had a duty to act in a humane manner to trespassers (seems reasonable to me). This was enshrined into statute by the Occupier's Liability to Trespassers Act 1984. Now it would appear that the law needs to be looked at again.

The law is being reviewed, the House of Lords are looking at the defence of 'ex turpi causa' (Illegality) as we speak, which at present is only available as a total defence and is very hard to prove, as is 'Volenti' - (the claimant voluntarily exposed himself to the risk).

Trespassing itself is of course not a criminal act anyway.

There is also 'Contributory Negligence' which usually substantially reduces the amount awarded when the claimant has acted in a negligent manner themselves, I don't know why it didn't appear to work in this case.

19th Mar 2005, 19:37
Hmm... succinct, to the point, many would agree Scrubbed. Thought of standing for a party, constituancy perhaps? You did indicate a willingness to offer some help, heaven knows the present Government could do with some assistance.

19th Mar 2005, 21:26
It would take me too long to explain all the ins and outs of the Mining Law and how it affects the different parts of the oil industry in Holland....
From what I gather these are purely dutch introduced laws which are there as a way of limiting the days/hours you are allowed to work offshore with the intention of forcing employers to employ more people. Which I can understand in theory if everyone was doing the same job, but in practice doesnt this isnt the case .......Unfortunately they are trying to regulate a tiny, tiny part of a massively international industry, with many different facets so the only companies that get affected are Dutch ones, many of the main multi-nationals just rotate guys in from abroard where the laws are more flexible........

Regards, SD..

20th Mar 2005, 14:56
Is this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/26/wexp26.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/26/ixnewstop.html) the next step towards making crime pay

cessna l plate
20th Mar 2005, 16:25
Not just the UK that's gone barking mad, seems the Dutch are keen on the idea as well.

Whatever happened to breaking rocks 12 hours a day???

20th Mar 2005, 20:01
Oh dear... a gross violation of human rights chaps, no soft matresses, individual dressing gown and slippers and hols for those who need a bit of a stretch.

20th Mar 2005, 20:04
Dunno about the UK going to pot, but there ain't half a lot of whinging b*ggers about. :rolleyes:

20th Mar 2005, 20:09
cmon Cas always were always will be, beside nothing like a good whinge to clear the sinuses... er maybe not that's something else.
besides other than the fact that spring is here the buds are appearing and there simply hasn't been too much really bad news around what else is there to do.:D

20th Mar 2005, 20:47
I haven't read all of this thread very carefully ............ is it something to do with the re-re-classification of cannibis back to class B. :confused:

Going to pot..........geddit?? :D

21st Mar 2005, 19:15
That and the rest. At least in my day all they said was that although Mary Jane had not proved to be addictive or harmfull to ones health it was against the law and these were the penalties in the various states around the US. No bullshit and to my mind refreashingly direct. I tried liked and then moved on deciding that abstinence to all drugs probably a healthy option. The fags took much longer to kick and booze alas I still am dabbling with. I may yet get clean.:sad: