FIC or TR? Advice Please

[Flying Fortunes]

Advice request.

Having recently completed my flight training in November 2004, I am now the proud owner of my own fATPL inclusive of an MCC/JOC. Total A/C time of 152hrs (100 PIC). Not a lot at all!

After applying for over 5 months to no avail and having not flown in that time, I am now pondering what to do in terms of making myself more marketable to perspective employers.

Throughout my training I was totally against the idea of paying for a TR and believed if needed, I would complete an FI course and gain experience in that respect.

However, in recent days and weeks I have found myself actually contemplating spending more than 3x the amount of an FIC in favour of a type rating.

I can see the advantage of an FI rating and the benefits from increased hours, experience and teaching, a task I have found most rewarding. Even though we are now hearing that instructors are starting to move up the ladder to charter outfits, turbo-prop operators and indeed some airlines such as Flybe and EZ, is there a risk of getting stuck in this environment for too long. I am not in any way trying to put down the instructor role, I have the greatest respect for mine and indeed all instructors, but I have to be honest and say this is not a career path I want to lead. I do feel a short period in this field would be very useful but after 1500hrs in a PA28, how much more can be gained by a further 1500? Surely a load of SE time is not too helpful on the grand scale of things when applying for that first jet job?

So, to the TR. The choice seems to be between the A320 and the 737 300-900. Is spending 20k on some hours in a box and 10 landings really the way to go? No guarantees of employment with a limiting factor now on your licence, as it’s pointless applying to the other operators who use the other A/C type. The risk factor that you have now exposed yourself to have greatly increased. Just like the IR the clock is now ticking with the bank manager ever so less patient or understanding.

I know this industry is and has always been competitive. It keeps us good at what we do and that is not my complaint. However, with the likes of FR leading the way some years ago by sending prospective employees away to fund their own TR to then come back and reapply has led me to be disquiet about this whole SSTR process. Defenders have told me it’s market forces of supply & demand, that if FR hadn’t started it someone else would have and that it shows an individual who has commitment.


Really? So working 60hrs a week for two years and two jobs to save half, get a bank loan for the other and spend the region of 60k doesn’t show commitment of ones convictions already? I’m sure others with similar situations will agree. Where were the unions BALPA, IPA/IFA when this all began? Are we not to blame for this state of affairs because we were too weak to say no? Everyone wants to get ahead in that outset position. I am right now. But if I decide to go down the TR route is this not continuing down a very slippery slope? Where do we draw the line? A few years from now fATPL with a TR may become the norm? What then, do pilots attempt to get ahead by offering to fly for free? Oh wait a minute, we already do by paying for x sectors or hours Line Training!! :{

This is a farce! Are we really accepting this, 100k debt to fly people around Europe who paid more on the train/petrol to the airport than the bloody plane ticket itself! The cost of running an aircraft is fundamentally more than that of a coach/bus/train/taxi and it’s about time people realised these overheads can’t continue to be substituted to our own detriment. :* Should TRTO’s say no to individual training requests without an approval for such training from an operator? Yeah, I’ve left the realms of capitalist reality and am being stupid now.

I have turned my advice request into a rant. Yet I am still contemplating the TR! :ooh: My desire to fly heavy metal my be clouding my judgement, impairing me to come to an informed decision. HELP!

For those of you that have got this far without switching off thank you.

To those that are still looking for work, good luck. To those that already have their office between FL40-410, safe flying.

I let this out to the greater PPRuNe community for your thoughts.

FF

[Flying Farmer]

FF

I can only answer you from the view point of an instructor. I qualified three years ago this month and after 6 months in the doldrums undertook the FI course. You will benefit immensely from both the FI course and then the flying to follow, you are PIC and the decisions rest squarely on your shoulders, building experience and handling skills along the way. As an aside if you chose your place of employment with a little care many contacts can be built along the way.

In my case, I'm now 43!! With around 1100 hrs, my position as an instructor put me into the right hand seat flying with a company that requires a second pilot flying various piston and turbo prop twins in a commercial environment. I believe this to be a natural lead in to a F/O position with the experience gained and now feel well prepared for a multi crew position.

As to the type rating argument and I have at times thought of going down that route, the advice given to me ranged from, the positive "go for it, it gave me my first break" to "if you are going to do it, you will need to include 100 hours on line to make you employable" and from people in the know “don’t bother, wait till your employer pays for the rating" given my situation, I have decided against going down this route, as is said here there is no guarantee.

Ask 50 people their opinion and you will get many and varied answers, those that it has worked for (there are many who it hasn't) will say go for it. Some will say you need 100 hours on type, if you can afford £30,000 and can risk gambling that amount go for it. If you can survive on an instructor wage I'd say get the experience, build a few hours, network like mad, fly some twins, do your apprenticeship, you will be a more balanced and experienced pilot when you get that multi crew position.

Feel free to PM me with any questions and good luck which ever path you choose to follow.

FF

[GusHoneybun]

I love it when you posts start off innocently and end up in a rant :D.
Anyway, I'd like to pitch up with afew ramblings from a bored mind. The way I see it is that you have three options, all of which you've listed.

Option 1) Sit and wait for a company to accept you as an FO and pay for your type rating (albiet as a bond). We all know that things are picking up at the moment and people are moving on to bigger and better things. The only company that will consider you in this scenario is one that is losing pilots that it cannot easily replace. Look towards the turbo prop/ air taxi/general aviation market, particularly regional operators. Try to set your sights a little lower initial. Sure, we all would have loved to strap a 747 to our derrieres as a first job, but it ain't going to happen.

Option 2) Go and get a type rating. Well, this has been discussed to death on this forum and yes I agree that it seems the norm rather than the exception. People will tell you that if you get a TR yourself you are contributing to the rot. And yes, they are right but life isn't fair, nobody owes you a living just because you got through training and sometimes you have to make you own luck. But, what makes you think you will get a job just because you have a type rating? It's a gamble at the end of the day and the odds are not in your favour. Plus, having a shiny jet type rating on your licence and you can kiss goodbye to any kind of TP job as the Chief Pilot will know that you will jump ship at the earliest possibility, if only to help pay off the 20 grand debt.

Option 3) Become an instructor. It certainly hones your flying, making any future sim check a wee bit easier. You build hours quicker than any other way known to man and it is very rewarding, frustrating and certainly challenging. It puts you into the industry and you end up making lots of contacts (most useless but hey!). However, you must question your motives as it seems that your heart is set on flying jets. Remember at the end of the day who is actually paying you to fly and you should be able to give them 100% of your attention. If you resent the fact you are an instructor rather than jet driver, don't waste your money on being an instructor.

In your situation, I would avoid option 2 at all costs. You already have a debt to service, can you afford to up that by another 20 grand? Unless you have a definite job at the end, don't pay the money for a type rating. Look to become an instructor first, if you can apply yourself to your students. SEP hours do count. Although, I have heard that only about 1000 hours are considered useful to employers (could be wrong, just what I have heard). You'll be in the right place to hear any little tips and more importantly your face will be known. Also if your in an interview and the Chief Pilot asks "When did you last fly?", the answer "Yesterday" sounds much better than half a year ago.
If you would rather do option 1, then as Hesletine said "Get on yer bike". First, spend a few hours in the air to get you back into the swing of things. There are three TP operators that I know of that have just finished/about to begin recruiting people so the work is out there. Try to target a select number of companies you would like to work for. Go and find some of the people that work for the company, buy them a drink and gleen as much info as you can. Write a unique covering letter geared towards the company in question. Nothing annoys more than a generic CV with a bland covering letter.

Don't get disheartened, if you want something badly enough, it will happen in the end. Just a few ramblings from an ex-FI whose office is mostly now at FL5 and below.

[Flying Mushroom]

Flying Fortunes

I have to agree with Flying Farmer (I too am an Instructor). As much as a shiney TR on your licence may be appealing, its an awful lot of money to throw at what still may be viewed as a longshot. 150ish hours isn't a great deal of experience and I would whole heartedly recommend the FI route.

Yes, it is the quickest way to build your hours and as it has been said already, you must deliver 100% to your students, but as an apprenticeship it is invaluable. It puts you in an environment where YOU are responsible for all command decisions and you will quickly develop very good CRM skills. Consider it as an opportunity to polish all the skills you have learnt, whilst learning some new ones - all of which will be needed in your heavy metal jet job (and yes, I hope to drive one too).

In a recent recruitment drive, one airline was asking for a minimum 1000hrs or 50hrs in the last 6 months recency if you had trained at a major approved school. Think about it, how could you meet requirements like these? Even if you have been to one of the big schools, 50 hours in 6 months takes some doing if you've plowed your last pennies into a TR.

I'm not against doing a TR if you can afford it, in fact an Instructor who I've been working with has just secured a very nice position on a shiny Airbus (although with around 1000hrs) after following a similar route. I've around 1200 hours and most of these are SEP - they all counted towards my interview with said company (although they havent helped them start up any training courses ... come on guys, get a move on!) Sorry, lost the thread there :rolleyes:

Which ever direction you choose to go, good luck. Without being biased towards my chosen path, I do recommend it. Get some more hours under your belt, in an environment that may very well open some doors for you, whilst earning some (although not much) money. The TR will still be an option if you need it later.

FM :)

[Mister Geezer]

I would say go for the instructor route but since that is how I started off then I am probably a bit biased.

Some of the flying that I did as a instructor is some of the most enjoyable and most rewarding that I have ever done. The FI course is enjoyable yet hard work but I learned a lot. Looking back at my flying standard before I did the course and I am ashamed at how rusty and how scrappy things had become and I flew one every few weeks before hand. The people skills and the decision-making are all qualities that are honed as an instructor but are of equal use in a multi crew environment with put into a CRM context. But above all it is just fantastic fun!

The FI experience got me my first commercial job on turboprops. Despite flying commercially I still do a bit of part time instructing since it is fun and it is a useful skill to have. The guys that taught me for my PPL who are now on heavy metal say to me - keep your FI rating current... very useful to have! Anyway I have moved to a jet operator in order to move back nearer to home and my FI experience was held in high regard at the interview.

If I lost my job then I have got a FI rating that I can use to keep myself current with so it is a back up plan as well!

[Flying Fortunes]

Thanks to all for your comments so far, most interesting.

I must say I am actually still leaning towards the FIC as before. Yet I still keep wondering what if.........regarding the TR.

As some of you have quite rightly pointed out, it would be expected of an FI to give 100% to the student and FTO. I may not have made my position clear and given rise to these concerns.

Yes, this is not a career I want, but I am one who sticks by a decision. I will be 100% committed to my students. I hope I won't find myself bitter about my situation, although if after 2 years drilling holes in the sky without any progression I can't honestly say.

This won't effect my instructing though, as any problems I may have should not concern the student and will be left out of the cockpit environment. Basic MCC and HPL stuff here girls and boys.

Anyway, I shall not digress and get back to the thread.

More views please.

FF

[Mister Geezer]

You are probably more likely to get more back from your investment if you went down the FI route than if you bought a type rating. Instructors are not as plentiful as they used to be since the self-improver route has gone under JAA. The days of spending years as a FI are gone and nowadays it is months! The instructing side is not a 'career' move since it simply can't pay the bills. Look at it as an apprenticeship!

[jamestkirk]

I have posted the odd thread about doing the FI rating, which i am starting at Goodwood in April.

I too was considering selling muself to Natwest or anyone to get the money for a TR. I get the impression that the whole uncertainty of that route has major risks attached when trying to find a job.

My previous job was a trainer, so i feel that i would enjoy the FI role.

And as i said before. It may be low paid and long hours. But it beats sitting in an office.

[salapilot]

Where would you guys recommend doing the FI course and what is the approx costs and time requirements in completing ?

[WX Man]

Recommend Alan Cooper at East Mids Flying School. However he's booked up for about the next 3 months, so if you are in a hurry, look elsewhere. If you want quality training in quality aircraft (OK... they're C152s... but they're nicer than your average C152), out of East Midlands Airport look no further. Also at £5400 including Pre Entry flight test, this is incredible value. He's also got a 100% pass rate, with 18 students over the past 2 years or so.

My 2p worth on the instructor thing: the choices open to me were (1) pay for TR; (2) pay for FIC.

- TR does not guaruntee a job
- FIC pretty much does

- TR may not go that far to improving your manual flying ability(?)
- FIC definately does

- TR will not necessarily give you any contacts
- FIC may do, depending where you end up working

However...

- Newly qualified FI will earn no more than about £10K in the first year, after paying £6K for the rating
- Newly qualified jet FO will earn about £14K in the first year, and even that is with RYR. This after paying £20K for the rating.

On balance, it's probably horses for courses.

I don't really want to get drawn into the 'don't pay for a TR' debate, but suffice to say that the climate these days is very different to how it was 20 years ago.

[sidtheesexist]

flying fortunes - many congrats on completion of FATPL. I've just made a post on the 'age discrimination' thread that has relevance to this topic. I'm an ex - instructor of 3 yrs or so. Rather than repeat myself, if you are interested in another opinion, hop over there and have a peek. Interested to see what you think. Regards, Sid:O

[airpilot]

Salapilot,

Chris Caine at Wolverhampton does a good FI course and the prices are fairly decent.Hes based at The Flight Centre,Half penny Green.

Instructing is great and it keeps you in the air and the old log book filling up. Get your night and applied instrument restriction lifted at the same time as your considered more useful when looking for a job and there will be plenty.

As for the type rating I will certainly not be spending that kind of cash and am glad I can not afford it anyway. I f we are not careful all the airlines will expect it and they will only look at guys and girls with the fattest cheque book.( Again I must agree with sidteesexist this sort of thing must be consigned to history.) This quote is from the old age forum.

[Loony_Pilot]

Hi,

Well... I've done a combination of most routes... CAP509 followed by unemployment followed by FIC followed by a 737 type rating.

I passed my initial IR 5years ago.. so the wait has been a long one.. 5 months... well..I'd say that it would be pretty fortunate to get a job within 5months of passing your initial IR.

With regards to the FIC rating.... you say you only have 152 hrs? I think you need a minimum total time of 200hrs with 100PIC before you can do your FIC course... so you'll need to factor in the extra 48hrs. (I'm not 100% sure that what I've said is right, so make sure you get definitive advice from an FIC instructor).

I found the FIC course to be the best and most enjoyable course of them all, you're flying skills will improve enormously and you'll find that after a couple of hundred hours instructing, you'll feel very confident with most situations that flying a SEP aircraft and with a student can throw at you.

The big downside to the FIC rating and instructing in general, is thats its very very hard to make ends meet, unles you can get a really good deal where you get a decent retainer and a good hourly rate, its hardly worth doing it full time. You'll do almost as much flying if you just instructed weekends...you could easily do over 250-300hrs a year just from weekends.

The upside to instructing, is you will build experience quickly (and dont listen to the multitude of people who say you shiuldnt instruct as a means to build hours.. you can do that, and still be a highly professional dedicated instructor), it will make a difference at sim checks, and your cv will look much better with 1000hrs rather than 152.
You will also make contacts.
Also right now, there is something of a developing mild shortage of instructors, especially unrestricted ones.

I got to 1200 hrs total, and having missed to on a couple of oppurtunites by failing sim checks, mainly due to being out of instrument flying practice (Ryanair and CTC), I ended up more or less having to make the choice of giving up flying, or going for it getting a TR. I opted for the TR, on a scheme which is suppsed to place you with an airline at the end (and they placed everyone in 2004 as far as I know).
if you're going to do a TR, I would strongly recommend some line training too.

I try not to get drawn on arguments about paying for a TR, but one way or another, most TR's are paid for upfront, or you get a reduced salary etc. yes there are airlines that will pay, and if you can get in with one of those, good for you. I'll just be jealous!

The thing is, that you need something to stand out from the crowd, there are a lot of F/ATPL's with less than 500hrs out there.... getting an FIC rating, 1000hrs and a Type-rating and some experience will make you stand out.

There are almost always more pilots than jobs, and the whole thing has become even more mercenary and cut-throat than it ever has been, for every pilot that will fly for x amount, someone will do it for less.. and so on.
Its the same even with instructing, pay rates differ enormously (from £10ph to £25ph) with or without retainers

Why do Ryanair pay 9k basic salary to new F/O's? cause they can!! (they do pay good rates of flight pay though, and this is not a Ryanair bashing attempt!)

Its supply and demand, until the supply of pilots reduce a little, salaries will not go up, but I believe that things usually go full circle and eventually things will get better, but they'll probably get worse first.

I dont have any regrets about doing the FIC or the TR, doing the TR has got me closer to an airline job than I've ever been before (I have literally just finished base training) and I expect to get into an airline this year.

Sorry that this turned into such a ramble, at the end of the day you just have to weight up the options, try to view it as objectively as possible and make a choice based on real info and not speculation.

LP

[airpilot]

Yep thats correct you need 200hrs total time of which 100 must be pic but its worth doin. Spring/summer is just around the corner so dont hang about.

[benhurr]

Although the CAA will grant you an exemption to do the course with 100 airborne hours if you ask them nicely.

Not sure if I agree with it, but it is certainly a factual piece of information.

I can recommend Alan at East Mids too.

[fokkerking!]

I was wondering how much it costs to get a FI rating in the UK, because in Holland it costs you almost as much as a TQ.

[topunicyclist]

Interesting discussion; I had already made my mind up months ago on the subject.

Jamestkirk: did you go to Stapleford by chance?

Fokkerking: about £6000 for the FI course + pre entry flight test + acft & examiner hire for final flight test + rating issue fee + 5hrs of single engine piston flying in the 6 months preceeding the course (unless you have flown SEP recently)

[jamestkirk]

I start at goodwood in early April.

[sidtheesexist]

Airpilot - pleased to see that we are singing from the same hymn sheet re SSTRs!!! :O If only more people felt the same way..

Not so happy with regard to your comment '..the old age forum.' You cheeky blighter.......:E

Re Chris Caine - have heard many complimentary things about him. I did my FI rating at Andrewsfield Aviation with Carol Cooper and Steve Wilkes. I found them professional, helpful and enthusiastic.

Cheers

[airpilot]

Yo Sid, sorry about the old age bit mate, could'nt think how to spell discrimination at the time.


£6000 for an FI course seems a little steep. Chris Caine at The Flight Centre, Half penny Green,Wolverhampton. 01384 221456. He'll do it for around £4500-£5000 and get you done and dusted in 3-4 wks. If your interested fokkerking give him a bell.

Thats how you put these little faces on.;) :cool: :D :p :ok: I\'m having so much fun.

[sidtheesexist]

Airpilot, you young whippersnapper - apology accepted :p

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Flying Fortunes,

Good post, and reading the replies I have found to be a breath of fresh air. I cannot offer any advice, however I am in the same boat as you, I have just started a FIC. TR not an option for me right now, all my pocket money has run out, dam Seneca at five quid a minute :{.

Just out of interest how many of you guys out there still teach on a part time basis, even though you are flying the big stuff commercially? Like you all, I am keen to fly jets commercially, however, would like to think I will still teach part time and share that valuable experience and enthusiasm with like minded youngsters or older guys, on my days off. I would imagine if you are flying short haul it would be difficult to fit it in, but what about long haul, with your days off? There are a couple of guys down at my local club who are B777 pilots and still teach in light aircraft. I think this is great. These guys have achieved their goals and are keen to share their experiences and enthusiasm, its nice to give something back.

Anyway FF, good luck with what you decide. Once I finish the FIC I am looking forward to taking on my first student, 18 year old blonde :E.

All the best.

[sidtheesexist]

CAT 3C - currently flying tprops but manage a bit of ad hoc instruction. It's not too much of a problem finding the time more a case of inclination believe it or not!! - I know, I can hear the cries of ' sacrilege ' - however, if you've had a busy month you get a bit tuckered and days off away from aviation become very attractive propositions indeed.

Yes, it is in many ways a refreshing change from the proper job (which I enjoy thoroughly) - what really cracks me up is how small the C152/PA28 seems!! :D It is also rewarding and enjoyable to share your experiences and to hopefully encourage aspiring pilots whether they are aiming for PPL or higher.

Regards, Sid :)

[Mister Geezer]

I fly commercially and still do a bit of part time instruction when I can. I still enjoy it as much as I did when I started, if not more! However if you have had 5 early starts in a row, then light aircraft flying on your days off might not be that appealing. However I do try and do as much instruction, when I can - nicer on a month when the roster is a bit quieter!

It is a nice and refreshing change to do some flying which is in a relaxed atmosphere where there are no timetables to keep to, no missing passengers to worry about and you have the chance to fly at low level and enjoy the view.

Most airlines won't have a problem with you instructing however if cash changed hands for my services then my company regards that as duty time and could limit how much flying I can do on my roster. I just get any money put into a kitty and I can use it when I wish to hire a Cessna and go for a jolly on my own - which is the best fun of all!

[Cavallier]

Nice post CAT IIIC. You are not having any of my students ;)

Seneca trip next Tuesday !!!

The Cav:cool:

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

sidtheesexist and Mister Geezer,

I think it is great that you guys take the time out to instruct in your spare time, nothing like an enthusiastic instructor. If I ever get the oppotunity to fly the heavies, I will most definately adopt that attitude.

Cavallier, greetings there sir, you have surfaced back to the realms of PPRUNE. I am glad you are still responding to my posts. I thought scum like me would not be worthy of a response from a potential A330 pilot ;). Oh yes, Cavallier the stud, with all the female students, someone will have to take them on :D. Can I book myself into the left or maybe the right hand seat of the Seneca next Tuesday? Perhaps you can laugh at my ILS into Bouremouth? See you soon mate.