Diabetic man forced off BA flight [Archive]

Helli-Gurl

13th Mar 2005, 20:19

I have a needless injection system, uses a compressed gas to force the insulin thru the skin.....mind you had t fight to get it and not too common on the good ol' NHS.

The resting equipment does use a needle to prickthe skin and draw blood but it is so tiny one can hardly see it. Although In have a doctors note, I've never once on any airline been questioned about them.

Seems a bit of a storm in a tea cup really as someone quite rightly pointed out early, if using needles, then diabetic's needles are infact tiny and most use a pen dosing system which is totally harmless, less dangerous than a bic biro!

Does seem like BA are being a but strict here especially when other airlines arent, and I've never seen anywhere where its written down or displayed that you can't carry a dosing pen or testing kit.

This is one area where common sense ought to prevail as it's not the first time it's happen and probably won't be the last.

Engineer

13th Mar 2005, 20:21

Thanks and it states
Diabetes There is no reason why someone with insulin dependent diabetes cannot fly as a passenger. For long haul flying (particularly if crossing time zones) it may be sensible to discuss how you manage your insulin regime with your healthcare professional. Information is also available from Diabetes UK at www.diabetes.org.uk.Could not find any mention of of insulin or blood sugar testing needle restrictions or requirement for doctors note.

Helli-Gurl

13th Mar 2005, 20:25

This is interesting..

""British Airways are unable to store insulin in aircraft fridges for various reasons. Diabetes UK (formally known as the British Diabetic Association) advise that insulin, in general, can be kept at room temperature (below 25 degrees C) for up to a month without losing its effectiveness."

I was on a flight back form BKK where my insulin got runined because the plane had faulty air conditioining and the cabin was up at 30 degrees constantly....made for a very unpleasant flt.
What was worse is that plane had been flying about like that for a few weeks so the problem was known about...so why on earth did they send it to a tropical country in the first place?

disappointed

13th Mar 2005, 20:30

Engineer - then you didnt scroll down!

quote:

Passengers should carry a letter from their doctor confirming the need to carry syringes, needles and medication in the aircraft cabin. As security screening at airports is outside the control of British Airways, you should discuss a contingency plan with your Doctor to enable you to travel safely in the unlikely event that the authorities do not allow your equipment to be carried in cabin baggage.

Please note: The above information applies to passengers who need to carry syringes, needles, epipens and medication, in their hand luggage, for any medical reason.

Battery operated glucose monitors may be carried in hand luggage. If you are carrying these monitors you must obtain a Doctor's letter confirming your need to carry 'sharps' on board an aircraft.

DX Wombat

13th Mar 2005, 20:32

It may surprise some of you, but when someone needs regular injections it is possible to forget that you are carrying them as it is part of your normal lifestyle and thus accidentally not declare them. I have had personal experience of this having had to carry injectable medication around for several years and been on many flights with it prior to the clampdown. Thankfully this is no longer the situation. On the first occasion on which I flew after all the new rules and regulations came into being I quite happily went through the check-in process, including putting by cabin bag through the scanner and went to sit in the lounge at Manchester and awaited my shuttle flight to London. Sitting there happily minding my own business it suddenly struck me that not only had I got the offending article in my cabin bag, but I had not been asked if I was carrying any such articles nor, most importantly, had they shown up on the scanner. Fortunately I had documentation and was able to satisfy the person from BA that I told. Whilst it is unlikely that this person would have died in the time it took to get to Heathrow there were measures he could have taken to reduce the risk. There are one or two important things to note. Why was he not carrying an identification card? diabetic people who require insulin have one and it should be carried at all times. Failing this, if his diabetes was really as unstable as he claimed (another good reason for carrying the card) why did he not have some sort of Medic-Alert bracelet or necklace? The person with the illness / disease has responsibility for making sure that his or her problem can be easily idenitified especially if travelling in an area where English may not be the first language. (I am NOT suggesting that nobody in Hong Kong can speak English)

hobie

13th Mar 2005, 20:41

Eng .... it is there .....
Passengers should carry a letter from their doctor confirming the need to carry syringes, needles and medication in the aircraft cabin. As security screening at airports is outside the control of British Airways, you should discuss a contingency plan with your Doctor to enable you to travel safely in the unlikely event that the authorities do not allow your equipment to be carried in cabin baggage.

Its sad but in this modern world of ours one needs to study carefully before even stepping outside your front door .... :(

ImageGear

13th Mar 2005, 20:57

Deleted for not being a good idea.

Imagegear

disappointed

13th Mar 2005, 21:02

image gear
smart and responsible move
:ok:

Buster66

13th Mar 2005, 21:12

As an insulin-dependent diabetic in the airline industry, I agree with LTNman. My insulin needles are 0.6mm diameter and 6mm long. I have a fountain pen with a fine nib in my kit which would cause more damage. The crew may have over-reacted but equally, may have been bound by their crew operations manual.

Rainboe, you are either mis-informed or being sarcastic.
"...when all around you are having nailclippers and mini-screwdrivers confiscated at security": Are these nailclippers and mini-screwdrivers required to keep you alive?? Blood monitoring and insulin injections are, and, incidentally, would prevent that diabetic passenger from becoming a possible medical emergency during the flight requiring a likely inflight diversion.

"...not exactly onerous.": How would you feel if you had a chronic condition, had to try and get an appointment with your doctor (not exactly an easy task, sometimes), had to get a doctor's letter - not a 'doctor's note' which is required for self-certification and SSP purposes and has nothing to do with this subject - had to pay the (up to) £25.00 that they demand for this "service"/requirement and then have to present it to check-in, security and flight crew whenever asked. Would this not make you feel slightly annoyed. And the galling thing is, when you pass through some airport security stations (LHR T2 and T1 in my recent experience), they do not spot the needles on the scanners and, when you volunteer that your diabetic kit may need checking, they check nothing and point out to you that this is not necessary.

Diabetics are made to feel consistently sub-human by an industry that is increasingly failing it's own low standards of duty of care towards passengers. I would propose to you that this passenger may have had his human rights infringed. I would also ask; was the passenger ever advised by BA that he had to satisfy 2 seperate standards of justification for carrying needles/insulin/blood testing kit? BAA Security (who are contracted by BA for terminal security checks) let him pass unhindered without a doctor's letter. The BA crew demanded that he show them a doctor's letter. A case of double standards, methinks...?

Rainboe

13th Mar 2005, 21:29

The rules are there, and it is up to the person when making a booking, especially if they are diabetic, to ensure the conditions of carriage are complied with. Were I to be diabetic, I would arm myself with a Doctors letter kept with the medication in case of such eventuality- it does not time expire! If you have a beef with the fact the rule is there, I am not the one to get angry with!

Buster66

13th Mar 2005, 22:05

Rainboe,
I wasn't actually angry. I was emphasising that you seem to categorise insulin (required for medical reasons) as less important than nailclippers (cosmetic item) and mini-screwdrivers (fixing glasses, perhaps??).

I would allow that the conditions of carriage may not have been read properly and there is plenty of information out there to ensure that this chap cannot allow authorities to put him in this position again.

However, there is inconsistency in the industry. I have travelled on BA flights (long-haul and short-haul) where the cabin crew would seem to have ignored their own company's conditions of carriage and, presumably, S.O.P.'s.. Just to back this up, BA059 LHR-CPT. Declared sharps and insulin verbally and showed my MedicAlert bracelet to check-in, security (who ignored me), gate staff and purser in charge of our cabin. The purser told me that I hadn't orderd a diabetic meal. I said I know, I don't need one. That was the end of her input... She let me carry sharps and needles et al in the cabin with no problems at all. BA572 LHR-MXP. Declared sharps and insulin verbally and showed my MedicAlert bracelet to check-in, security (who ignored me), gate staff and purser in charge of our cabin. This purser asked if I needed any special assistance, answer no, then "was I happy to keep the insulin with me in case it was needed in flight?" (The right way to deal with it, in my opinion.) Answer, yes. So 2 people within the same company dealt with it in 2 completely different, and, according to their conditions of carriage, wrong way!!!!!!! :ugh: And neither had, nor was ever asked for, a doctor's letter - by anybody.

Confused...? You would be, if you are a diabetic and fly on "The World's Most Inconsistent Airline"!

Rainboe

13th Mar 2005, 22:25

I am not categorising metal implements of any sort- I am just trying to explain concisely without any sarcasm or other meaning that these days any sharp metallic objects are likely to receive unsympathetic treatment in an aviation environment. To need to take needles away these days, one should always have a letter. As a Captain of an aeroplane, I have had nailclippers, not scissor type but the squeeze together ones, removed from my briefcase washbag! One imagines Ali the Terrorist, bursting onto the flight deck, and spying sticking out of the Captain's bag, a nailclipper! With a whoop of satisfaction, he grabs down and holds them out threatening the pilots with imminent injury as he holds the nail clippers opening and closing like a shark's mouth!

What chance with such logic pervading security these days does a syringe have? It's not the airline, it's security.

Jerricho

13th Mar 2005, 22:34

That's right. And it's the added "security charge" on tickets for a service the bastards should have been providing in the first place that is the ultimate insult (here in Canada it's $5.61 plus GST per person per leg of flight!)

Buster66

13th Mar 2005, 22:47

I obviously don't know what airport you normally operate from but: Here is part of the BAA's web-site relating to what may not be carried in hand-luggage:
"DO NOT pack the following items in your hand luggage:

Toy/replica guns (metal or plastic)
Catapults
Household cutlery
Knives with blades of any length
Razor blades
Tools
Darts
Scissors
Hypodermic needles (unless required for medical reasons)
Knitting needles
Sporting bats
Billiard, snooker or pool cues
Corkscrews"

Source: http://www.baa.co.uk/main/general/travel_guide/travel_tips/travel_tips_keep_draft/airport_travel_and_security_tips_frame.html

We could take this to the nth degree. I do support ypur viewpoint that nailclippers are hardly an immediately threatening weapon. But, the security staff, if you travel from a BAA airport, may have been given guidance that nailclippers constitite either a "blade of any length" or a "razor blade". I don't know for sure, but they may have been thinking that...

I could, if I really wanted to, mention that Hypodermic needles are not permitted in hand luggage unless required for medical reasons. So who is not working with the other, BA or BAA Security??

Anti-ice

13th Mar 2005, 22:55

Just about all BA aircraft don't have fridges , and even if they did, for health and safety reasons we would not stow anything from a customer in there - to avoid cross contamination.

You could always ask the crew for a small bag of ice - or go one better and bring a small coolbag from home with a blue freezer block in it to protect your medicine.;)

Buster66

13th Mar 2005, 23:23

South African Airways do (or at least have cool storage areas) on their B744's. Cabin crew asked me if I would prefer to store my insulin there for the long flight to Cape Town. I took them up on this in order not to take any risks with my medication - see post by "Helli-Gurl" at 13MAR/2125 above.

LTNman

14th Mar 2005, 05:10

So why don’t BA ban fountain pens? If someone held one as a dagger with its sharp polished nib I would feel more threatened than by a plastic needle pen with a needle so short and fine I would struggle to see it. Do BA crew ask passengers to remove their pen tops to make sure that the nib hasn’t been replaced by a needle? Either a fountain pen is a potential weapon or it isn’t. If it isn’t then how can a needle pen be classed as a potential weapon?

etrang

14th Mar 2005, 05:51

"The BA crew were a bunch of idiots."

I'm no fan of BA, but in this case the crew seemed to try and solve the problem. The fault lies with the rules themselves. The needles would have been just as dangerous if he had had a doctor's note, and are far less dangerous than other objects which passengers are permitted to carry.

Rainboe
"It's not the airline, it's security."

i thought it was the airline's rule. He later flew with CX without any problem.

Diverse

14th Mar 2005, 07:06

Taken from BA website.

Please be advised if you are carrying any of the above items (with the exception of hypodermic needles when proven to have a medical need for it/them) will be asked to place it in their hold baggage/suitcase. If you only have hand baggage then you will be asked to hand over the restricted item for disposal by British Airways.

Note: Tweezers, nail clippers, safety pins and sewing needles up to 2 inches in length are permitted in hand baggage.

Also everybody for information the following,

Virgin Atlantic site...

If you have a medical reason that means you need to inject during the flight you are permitted to carry syringes in the cabin. But you might be asked to produce medical evidence such as a doctor’s letter when you check in or at security screening. The letter should be kept with you at all times.

Easyjet...
The following items are not permitted to be taken into the cabin, and will only be accepted if packed securely in hold baggage...

Hypodermic syringes (unless supported by medical evidence)

Ryanair...

MEDICAL SYRINGES

If for medical reasons, passengers need to inject themselves during the flight (e.g diabetics) they are permitted to carry syringes in the cabin. They will be asked to produce appropriate medical evidence (a doctor’s letter will suffice) when they check in or at security screenings. This should be kept with them at all times.

It's fairly clear you need medical evidence to travel with these airlines, though some airlines it wasn't, I couldn't find info at BMI or Cathay Pacific. Also the TSA don't require written evidence they just need to see the syringes and medication. So it's not the case with all airlines, or at least they don't give any information that they do require medical evidence.

SLFguy

14th Mar 2005, 07:08

Apologies if I have missed something but this talk of fridges is confusing me...

Assuming the PAX was intending to keep the kit in his hand luggage and that he wasn't carrying a portable fridge, (!), then surely the CC could have stowed it for him somewhere safe?

I KNOW the print gives the splurge about Doc's Cert etc but having got to the point in time that they had, surely a little 'nous would have helped.

Diverse

14th Mar 2005, 07:19

I think the reason BA won't put this stuff in a fridge is because there isn't one that I'm aware of on the aircraft. Also if the items are taken from the passenger and mislaid or another passenger goes into a galley and steals them or the items get damaged and are unusable or other items get contaminated the company and it's staff have put themselves in a difficult position. Without their medication or ability to take it at the right time that passenger could become seriously ill.

eal401

14th Mar 2005, 08:05

The main question for me is how BA could refuse to carry this individual, yet CX had no problems whatsover?

Maybe CX and it's crews don't get off on treating pax like filth.

Diverse

14th Mar 2005, 08:46

I don't think in this case your comment eal401 is fair to the crew. The rules were clear. There is a process involved in removing a passenger which involves more than just the cabin crew. we don't know exactly how this passenger was treated and neither do you eal401, we just know he didn't have the paperwork required to travel on this flight and was offloaded. I think the big question should be why different airlines traveling in and out of the UK can come up with entirely different policies for the same thing.

Cathay now also provide a system where frequent travellers can register any medical conditions they may have this means they do not have to have clearance each time they travel. Maybe BA and other airlines could look into doing the same. It could be something which the airlines can include in their alliance programmes like they do with exec cards or even as part of that system. I wouldn't have thought it would require much effort.

skydriller

14th Mar 2005, 10:09

Alot of posters here have quoted "The rules are the rules" etc. etc. I think you are missing the point.

I for one also wonder what happened to common sense where the crew were concerned? It appears that in this case security dont have a problem with the carriage of a diabetics syringe/Novapen/insulin or whatever. All I can see is that Big Airlines has dropped the ball with their customer relations and gotten itself some bad PR - Again!!

Someone made the point that the passenger involved may have lived with carrying around a Mars Bar and his insulin pen/syringe all his life so didnt think it worthy of comment as it was his normal life. My late mother was a diabetic and I can only endorse this view from experience. If you dont think you are different or have any special needs, you dont search a website to find out these rules do you?

Regards, SD..

Diverse

14th Mar 2005, 11:06

I understand what you're saying skydriller but others can't know people are diabetic if their diabetes is being managed properly. If they travel regularly diabetics will come into contact with may people who have no experience, knowledge or understanding of diabetes. I for one only know what I've been told to allow me to do my job.

I think this rule of needing a letter is more to make sure people have the syringes for legitimate reasons and not for some illegal substance. Maybe?
If it was for security reasons as has already been pointed out, how do they suddenly become safe because the passengers have a doctors letter.

I still think we need to have a more robust system in place than a note from the doc.

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 11:18

The airlines introduced this ruling as a result of security concerns and security regulations! You are not allowed to bring sharp objects through security......PERIOD. If some security checks don't locate them, or some airlines are lax and don't attempt to enforce it, that is not reason to abuse those airlines and crews that do. BA even bans metal cutlery- people have to eat steaks with plastic tools.

IF you are diabetic, all you have to do is get a Doctor's Letter to carry needles! For goodness sake, it's not picking on diabetics, it's not for nothing, it's not crews being brutal- it's regulations! Are we going to have another 35 page thread talking this to complete and utter boredom? Get a Bloody Note!

eal401

14th Mar 2005, 11:25

You are not allowed to bring sharp objects through security......PERIOD.
Rainboe. Security DID let him through and another airline (CX)allowed him to carry the same equipment onboard.

The question is why? Or are CX crew braver than BA?

radeng

14th Mar 2005, 12:29

When I was injecting insulin, the packaging had the pharmacists label. Now it might be stretching imagination a little, but if someone is carrying the injection apparatus and the medication, labelled with a pharmacists label, isn't that sufficient? Nobody injects insulin for fun, after all. And the pens have needles so small they cannot be regarded as a weapon!

It would be as easy to forge a doctors letter as a pharmacists label, so any argument on those lines won't wash.

Although we have a lot of talk about security, we all know how much of it is merely window dressing: in the meantime, very few airlines can really afford to p*ss off long haul business passengers. In many cases, p*ss off one passenger and lose a whole load of business from that company - that's just happened to a hotel in Sweden we used to use as a company.

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 13:05

So if it is so important to travel......get a bloody note!
Jeez- it's not that hard! That's what the regulations say. You can talk the hind leg off a donkey about how beastly it is to be diabetic, how unfair the world is when you are one, but if the regulations say you must have a note.....is it that hard to equip yourself with one for life?

Page 4 here we come~!

Roghead

14th Mar 2005, 13:37

Rainboe, you make your point and with respect to this incident it is hard to argue a good case against the ultimate outcome. However I believe you are very much missing the wider issue which many have with regard the "regulations" and "rules" and the application of them.
It is (IMO) probable that most of the security rules are essentially window dressing and do not make flying any safer. They do, however, very clearly anger a significant number of passengers and airline employees. Do we as rational intellegent adults really have to accept your premise that because the regulations "say so" it must be correct and for a good reason? Yes, in the short term, we have to comply if we wish to travel, but there are many reasons to challenge the rules and regs if they are not effective.
You may remember how easy it was for the Unions to cripple the rail network by an insistance to work to rule. Working and complying to rules and regulations should be a level to aspire to, but the R&R's have to be sound, practical, fit for purpose and enforceable (amongst many other sound requirements).
I would suggest that your comments could be misunderstood as "jobsworth".

Widger

14th Mar 2005, 13:42

Of far more importance is this statement.

If you only have hand baggage then you will be asked to hand over the restricted item for disposal by British Airways.

Now I know what happened to my bags!!!;) ;)

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 13:59

Roghead.........
It is (IMO) probable that most of the security rules are essentially window dressing and do not make flying any safer.
Who is arguing with you? They have banned even pilots wives from being able to take a flight deck seat. None of us like it....but that's the rules. Fight it till you're blue in the face....that's the rules! I'm not justifying them....them's the rules- can't you understand that?

Do we as rational intellegent adults really have to accept your premise that because the regulations "say so" it must be correct and for a good reason? Yes, in the short term, we have to comply if we wish to travel, but there are many reasons to challenge the rules and regs if they are not effective.
Watch my lips- I am not justifying them. That's the rules- you wanna travel, follow the rules. In this case, to follow the rules, all you need is a BLOODY DOCTOR'S LETTER! Argue it with the CAA, NTSB, RSPCA for all I care....please, just get a note and argue it with someone else!

Roghead

14th Mar 2005, 15:03

Sorry old son if my reply has got you hot and bothered- your response suggests that you still have a lot of living to do.
Of course
<Watch my lips- I am not justifying them. That's the rules- you wanna travel, follow the rules. In this case, to follow the rules, all you need is a BLOODY DOCTOR'S LETTER! Argue it with the CAA, NTSB, RSPCA for all I care....please, just get a note and argue it with someone else!>
I, nor any one else, need take issue with that.

I repeat, however, that rules which do not provide a satisfactory solution should be challenged and fortunately there are people who throughout history have taken up that challenge and so progress has been made. No of course you don't have to be one of those people, but please be gracious enough to accept that they exist and you may well benefit from their endeavours.. in fact almost certainly have already

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 16:08

Well go challenge it in the right place! This is a Pilots Forum, not a 'I want to complain about security procedures' Forum! Complain to the Security people, not to the crews who have to follow instructions.

I most sincerely hope I do have a lot of living to do! About another 50 years should be enough.

femalesurgeon

14th Mar 2005, 16:14

Roghead -all you need is a bloody doctors letter- yeah right.

United - rejected the letter as easily forgable. Then made me inject myself with insulin infront of them of a dose of their choosing. Then noticed there were two types of insulin and made me inject the other. Followed by one pf the morons commments that if it was amixture for a bomb I was now a suicide bomber and laughed. They then let me board the plane!!
( for those diabetices- 12u actrapid & 20u Insulatard)

BA1 - Nigel idiot rejected the letter because it was more than 2 weeks old and he wanted a current letter with a current prescription.

BA2 - Rejected the letter because the doctors name was foreign. Nice to know that Nigels are a bunch of small minded racist w**ker s aswell as being thick

Air NZ- prior to 9/11 wanted me to only take exactly what I thoguht I would need on the plane and a letter. I offered to write them a letter as I am a dr, and proceeded to write a letter on a bit of scrap paper from my bag which they accepted.

So have rules but apply them consisitently and with a little bit of knowledge!!

Next time BA ask for a diabetic with insulin to come forward because some arse in Club had forgotten his they can take a flying jump and watch him coma!! ( And yes they have done just that!)

HZ123

14th Mar 2005, 16:18

As a seasoned 30 year airline person I have to agree with Rainboe. If the pax does not have the correct paperwork then he cannot fly, just as if he did not have his passport. This to me is an example of the pax blaming us for his own shortfalls. However, I am sure his business if he takes it elsewhere will be missed but that is his decision.

Helli-Gurl

14th Mar 2005, 16:18

I'm with you on that FemaleSurgeon! aftet they managed to cook mine on the flt back from BKK no way they're getting their hands on it.

I have a letter but I don't even bother telling them, I have no probs flollowing the rules, but they do have to be applied consistently which it woud appear they don't seem to be at present

x

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 16:26

There are no 'fridges' on most 747s. They have cold boxes for storing ice and for keeping food items cold. Do you think you have a right for medicinal supplies to be kept there? What next- 'biological samples' kept on top of ice being kept for people's drinks? I'm afraid IF you have to have something kept cold for you at a guaranteed temperature, then perhaps a refridgerator can be loaded for you (which you will have to pay for). Why should everybody else pay for your particular medical requirements- your ticket cost is for basic transportation- if you have special needs for Oxygen, guaranteed cold stores whatever, you should pay for that service rather than assume everybody else is happy to pay for it.

If anybody took your Insulin to keep cold, they were perhaps being very kind to you, but after some 10 hours, who is to know what temperature was reached in this cold store- I doubt very much it was that effective.

I'm amazed that you should assume that other people will solve your problems for you. If I was in this situation, I would carry my pack next to a freezer pack wrapped up in newspaper. It would last the flight. Why do you assume you can hand the problem to your transportation company- they are to get you to your destination, not pander to a thousand different medical needs that the patient is well able to solve themselves.

Helli-Gurl

14th Mar 2005, 16:34

Wouldnt need a fridge if they managed to keep the temp in the cabin at 25 degrees C or below, however on this flt the temp was up at 30 degrees for several hours and under BA's policy it unfortunately tough luck...I understand why they wont hold drugs etc and have no problem with that, however in situations outside of the paasengers control such as the cabin temp being ludicrously high then they should at least make an exceptions where situations could lead to someone becming ill.

This wasn't the first flt either where I've been on a BA plane with faulty air conditioning and that problem has been known about for some time. Not wanting to put BA down here as policy is policy but what idiot knowing full well a plane has faulty air conditioning sends it to a tropical country anyway! not the crews fault but someone in management needs a kick!

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 16:41

You were lucky- sometimes the rear cabin gets up to 38 deg C on the ground. We do our best to try and control it, but 350 people in close proximity each giving off some 100W lightbulb level heat and a fuselage baking in topical sun overwhelms all modern airconditioning systems- but that is why people go to these places for anyway- because they are hot. Until we get airborne with high airflow through the packs, we can't start cooling it down. People can travel at fares undreamt of a few decades back- it comes with the cheap fares and easy travel.
The Auxiliary Power Units are unfortunately not that reliable and do break down. We always use ground conditioning units anyway at Bangkok, and it is difficult and uncomfortable when the APUs are U/S. If it is any consolation, the one place hotter than the hottest part of the cabin is the flight deck!

disappointed

14th Mar 2005, 16:49

Next time BA ask for a diabetic with insulin to come forward because some arse in Club had forgotten his they can take a flying jump and watch him coma!! ( And yes they have done just that!)

Nice attitude for a medical person to have.

I am not going to call you a liar but must point out that this situation must have arisen in some kind of extreme circumstance.
Insulin is available in all BA medical kits and with clearance from Medilink in Phoenix it can be given to the passenger to administer himself.

Should the passenger coma, then assistance by a willing medical professional might be requested and diverson seen as a solution.

Helli-Gurl

14th Mar 2005, 17:16

Had all this from the long suffering boyfriend Rainboe, but even he admits the situation was unacceptable and he was on the flight deck at the time, the plane didnt even cool down in flt, only after 3 hours or so and getting intouch with people back in LHR..by which time the damage was done....it still remains, if you get these problems on a healthy plane what idiot knowingly sends a plane with faulty air conditioning to a tropical country...?

This plane had been flying around with this problem and it was known about for over 3 weeks!

And no it's no consolation that the flight deck is probably hotter, why should we cook alone ;)

femalesurgeon

14th Mar 2005, 17:33

Disappointed - I do go and help pax in trouble, but BA in my experience, have the rudest laziest crew when they want you to do something.

Med kits have improved markedly in recent years and if you think I would trust insulin that has been in a med kit and not in a fridge then you are mad. ( see heli-gurls comments) For those of you on a hot flight, wrap it in one of those hand cloths they give you and ask for a cup of ice. Does the trick just as well.

It must be something with the HK route, because that is the one I have had most problems with and a thank you has yet to be received from a BA member of staff. ( called on that route 5 times)

Monarch, Cathay, Thai etc on the other hand -could not be nicer. Just a simple thank you for your help is sufficient.

Not the BA response of, well it is your job isn't and you have to help them. No darling, BA do not employ me, pay me or pay my malpractice insurance, yet expect a free service whenever they get into trouble.

Rules are rules, but when they change the goal posts every time you fly, for something that is none of their bloody business in the first place, it is bloody annoying.

I now carry a tatty piece of paper undated and signed by myself and in the past three years have never once been asked for evidence!

jammydonut

14th Mar 2005, 17:38

Since we diabetics HAVE to produce documentation for perusal by morons why dont the freight insist on see Pilots Logbooks and A/C Maintenance Logs.

Carnage Matey!

14th Mar 2005, 17:46

You can't stab someone with a log book. Next stupid question please.

disappointed

14th Mar 2005, 17:50

female surgeon - my apologies- i was incorrect ...
there is no insulin in the kits

thanks for coming forward to help on board, i cannot understand why you have never been thanked a) by the crew dealing with the matter on the day or b) by more formal routes, as this is supposed to be the way things work - and indeed generally DO work

Roghead

14th Mar 2005, 17:58

I don't mind taking the flack from femalesurgeon for using your quote Rainboe, but do try not to be such a boorish, patronising ostrich.

"Well go challenge it in the right place! This is a Pilots Forum, not a 'I want to complain about security procedures' Forum! Complain to the Security people, not to the crews who have to follow instructions."

Yes this is a professional pilots website and the posting is on a Rumour and News forum and I am not conducting a campaign, merely pointing out that other peoples experiences should interest you as a (BA) 747 Captain. All is not black and white and the many shades of grey are the challenges to Command.
Comments like "who have to follow instructions" need a qualifying clause or it sounds like an excuse.
Pity, really 'cos some of your other posts seem to indicate that you are human, and talk a lot of sense.

Finally, I have to admit an interest in the "disability aspects" as my wife is and we still fly.

PaperTiger

14th Mar 2005, 18:08

This is a commercial link, but under the circumstances I hope the mods will let it stand. Portable freezer wallets (http://www.frio.uk.com/) are available to keep insulin cool for up to 45 hours.

And Rainboe, I suggest you rent the movie Casino and see what Joe Pesci can do with a 'safe' item.

SLFguy

14th Mar 2005, 18:46

Rainboe....honest question..please no flame...

Was the PAX intending to keep the kit with him in his hand luggage?

If so then the fridge question is irrelevant.

I appreciate that the CC were fully within their rights and appeared to to do all they could to help, (escort PAX to terminal to obtain Doc's Cert), - which as far as I am concerned negates any beef the PAX may of had. Perhaps the refusal to take advantage of this opportunity/offer raised CC's suspicion?

Apologies to others for not being a pilot yet posting.

maxy101

14th Mar 2005, 19:56

There appears to be a misapprehension amongst some of our posters, in that they think BA FC /CC can apply common sense in situations like this and "bend the rules" or "help the pax out" . What you must remeber is that we all know of BA employees losing their jobs for doing exactly that. Acting contrary to Flying Crew Orders is a sackable offence. Hence, nobody sticks their neck out, even though we all agree it is ludicrous. Do many of the above posters break their company rules to help peopl eout in their respective careers? Do you really want an airline pilot that is willing to bend/break the company Ops manual rules so readily? What next, ignoring MEL restrictions? After all, it is for the pax benefit.

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 20:05

Was the PAX intending to keep the kit with him in his hand luggage?

The whole point of this thread was that it was not travelling in his hold baggage- he was keeping the kit either on his person or in his hand baggage kept in the overhead locker. In planning to do so, he had made no attempt to obtain proof from the Doctor that it was necessary for him to keep a potential lethal weapon on his person so that he could self-inject during the flight. Cue abuse to BA about not keeping people's medical supplies cold, hot cabins, anti-passenger crews, something else, how nice Asian carrier crews are, passengers inspecting pilots log books (I will happily go through my log book with any number of passengers and gladly regale them with tales of this and that slip stay- before flight when I am on paid time).............

LTNman

14th Mar 2005, 21:10

In planning to do so, he had made no attempt to obtain proof from the Doctor that it was necessary for him to keep a potential lethal weapon on his person so that he could self-inject during the flight

Potential lethal weapon, you’re having a laugh

Skylark_air

14th Mar 2005, 21:15

I don't think even a terrorist would be stupid enough to hi-jack a place with a syringe, unless he's completly demented.

But let's say (s)he does; I'm sure that the terrorist could easily be restrained, or the needle could be knocked out of his/her hands.

It wouldn't lead to that terrorist taking control of the aircraft, because let's be honest, the worst they could do with it is pick the lock on the cockpitdoor, something which can no longer be done.

The maximum a "syringe" terrorist would be able to do, would be to make a few people bleed.

There, now take a few minutes off the internet, get yourself a coffee, and stop worrying over a few drops of blood, and if you're flying right now, don't let somebody take over that 200 ton machine with something as simple as a needle, and you're on easy street.

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 21:50

Well hello Skylark! I don't think we want any advice from a pilot impersonator thank-you. With some of the garbage (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1768901#post1768901) you have been posting as an alleged Dash-8 (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1697876#post1697876) pilot, I think I can do without any more harebrained suggestions from you young man- you are truly a Walter Mitty and a bit demented! You can pretend to be a pilot, but not in my time please! You must understand it is dangerous when someone pretending to be a pilot starts handing out advice! Now run along please.

So LTNman doesn't think a syringe is a 'potentially lethal weapon'? Why have Security confiscated my nail scissors (from me as Captain of an aeroplane)? Might I hijack my own aeroplane and take it somewhere I don't want to go?

pilotwolf

14th Mar 2005, 22:20

God! I hope no one here ever reveals the location or contents of the on board medical kit...

Had similar situation whilst working at LGW and CC were totally inflexible and insisted it was their decision whether the pax was allowed on board. I pointed out that maybe the commander of the aircraft might have a different view and I d go and consult with him... the pax flew on the flight much to the disgust of the CC.

A little knowledge or misunderstanding of the situation is dangerous to all involved and achieves nothing except pi$$ed off customers and news stories like this.

PW

fastjet2k

14th Mar 2005, 22:22

The maximum a "syringe" terrorist would be able to do, would be to make a few people bleed

Have you stopped to consider what the contents of that syringe might be?

femalesurgeon

14th Mar 2005, 22:50

I think what most of us diabetics are trying to say is: after many years of regular flying as diabetics, then fine if those are your rules then great we will play by them, but do not change the goal posts every time. ( see my earlier post)

If you want us to wave our piece of paper at the security boys, who will take not one iota of notice, then fine we will. If you want us to wave it at the cabin supervisor as we board and watch them panic then fine we will.

BUT BE CONSISTENT

25+ yrs of diabetes and have been asked 4 times for a letter and only twice has that been since 9/11

Most of us just want to get on, sit dwon, fly, inject feed, pee and then get off. We can do this without anyone needing to know and sure as hell do not need the whole cabin crew knowing.

A modicum of common sense is required - before long we will have medical boarding lines, where you take the Epipens off the allergy prone, warfarin away because it is actually a rat poison, take diuretics off people because it makes them pee more and that could be a problem because they get up more, stop epileptics boarding because they might have a fit. But please before oyu start doing that, take your bloody defibs and med kits off the plane, because they really are lethal weapons!

pilotwolf

14th Mar 2005, 22:52

Have you stopped to consider what the contents of that syringe might be?

So how does a Dr's letter ensure the contents of a vial is insulin?

PW

Roghead

15th Mar 2005, 00:22

At this late time of the day I hesitate to state the obvious (to me at least) but if there is a perception that the rules/regs are wrong or that using experienced judgement may be "frowned upon" by the Company then we really are up Sh*t Creek. Having spent my life in active flying I find it hard to believe that my fellow aircrew find it all too easy to roll over and say that rules are rules and we will just follow them blindly. For the sake of the profession guys stand up and be counted. If you are really smart this need not be the end of your career.
Mods, why did you move this from the forum where pilots and captains in particular could read the comments of their passengers? It simply further isolates them from the demands of command. Or is command another casualty of todays commercial aviation?:sad:

femalesurgeon- right on:ok:

Jordan D

15th Mar 2005, 04:42

I can't actually belive this thread has gone on to 5 pages after I posted it yesterday (Sunday). Anyhow, having said this, I'm still wanting to know something that no one has answered. Did CX not have problem transporting the gentleman without a letter?

Jordan

etrang

15th Mar 2005, 06:10

Female surgeon
I am amazed to read this.
" United - rejected the letter as easily forgable. Then made me inject myself with insulin infront of them of a dose of their choosing. Then noticed there were two types of insulin and made me inject the other. "

Yes the letter is easily forgable, which makes the rules even more stupid. But for people with likely no medical training in the use of insulin to insist that a passenger inject themselves, twice, is highly irresponsible and totally unreasonable. I hope you complained to the airline in the strongest terms.

Engineer

15th Mar 2005, 06:50

Maybe the question is

"what about the diabetic terrorist with the doctor's note onboard with his/her syringe"

Would this pose such a security threat along with the 2 litre bottle of duty free purchased in the airport shop

Unless all terrorists are at the peak of physical fitness :sad:

Rainboe

15th Mar 2005, 08:23

Well maybe the only answer is to ban everyone carrying syringes on board. I can live with that. You have picked holes in the current regulations very well, so the only solution is ban 'em....ban 'em all!

Are we agreed that is the safest and easiest answer to the security problem of syringes on board? Maybe no? Well maybe one practical and realistic solution would be to ask them to possess a Doctor's letter about it. Can you think of any other?

Whatever- don't whinge at the crew or Security people about it! They HAVE to carry out the instructions from the TSA, the Security people, or they don't have a job. Go see your MP! To take on the airline or the Security staff, you might as well whinge to a Policeman about the fact he's booking you for speeding. It is not under his discretion to turn a blind eye or fail to follow Police procedure- those are the rules, and if you don't like it, you won't get far complaining to the Police or lawcourts.

Please- just get a bloodly note! It should solve the problem. Is it too much to ask?

Page 6 now! It's stunning!

flybhx

15th Mar 2005, 11:51

Rainboe,

Not being a regular user of BA. Where would the pax have found the reference to the Drs note requirement if he's not a net user.

I'm coming across more and more people now who dont use it because of all the scare stories about virii and trojans etc.

If the info isnt provided to the client on booking then it is something which should be looked at just like baggage weights etc.

radeng

15th Mar 2005, 15:56

'CARRY A DOCTORS'S LETTER'

Who knows if I wrote the 'doctor's letter' myself?

They can hardly telephone the doctor's surgery for confirmation unless it's between certain specified hours, - otherwise, they'll just get a recorded message.

So it seems that it's a case of 'let's be stupid because that's what the rules say', while a 'doctor's letter' is really about as much good as tits on a bull from a security viewpoint.

Now, isn't that a good way to end up deriding ALL security precautions?

Of course, at the end of the day, what is needed is people with a modicum of intelligence making security regulations, but that appears a vain hope.

femalesurgeon

15th Mar 2005, 16:48

Rainboe- what part of this haven't you read. We have notes and you lot change the rules.

I am not endangering your life so don't endanger mine.

As for banning all people who carry meds - I think you will be bankrupt before you know it. And as for banning diabetics, kiss your profitable Asian routes good bye, because you have just kissed good bye to over 20% of your passengers!

PaperTiger

15th Mar 2005, 18:01

I am amazed to read this.
" United - rejected the letter as easily forgable. Then made me inject myself with insulin infront of them of a dose of their choosing. Then noticed there were two types of insulin and made me inject the other. "

Yes the letter is easily forgable, which makes the rules even more stupid. But for people with likely no medical training in the use of insulin to insist that a passenger inject themselves, twice, is highly irresponsible and totally unreasonable. I hope you complained to the airline in the strongest terms.This has to be the most mind-boggling piece of stupidity perpetrated In The Name Of Security I have heard of (and that is saying something). Complain hell, sue the b:mad:rs !, if it was United and not in fact the security jobsworths. Overdosing insulin is as dangerous as not taking it and medical decisions of that sort cannot be made by mouth-breathing dimwits whatever uniform they happen to be wearing.

(Feel much better now. Idiots.)

femalesurgeon

15th Mar 2005, 21:15

I did complain and the response was and I quote:

" in light of recent events, we do not feel that our actions were inappropriate." We therefore find no reason for us to apologise as the interests and safety of the USA and its citizens are number one priority"

As a doc and a longstanding diabetic, I did it, knowing what I needed to do to be safe. However, for the majority it would be highly dangerous and not a recommended course of action.

PaperTiger

15th Mar 2005, 21:25

Was it United (the airline) or the TSA ? The reply sounds very much the kind of thing we have come to expect from the TSA :mad:

radeng

16th Mar 2005, 08:08

femalesurgeon,

Do you think they realised the risks? No only that, how much does an emergency diversion cost?

patdavies

16th Mar 2005, 12:10

you might as well whinge to a Policeman about the fact he's booking you for speeding. It is not under his discretion

Oh yes it is.

This is one of the things that makes traffic cops far, far better than speed cameras - discretion

airbourne

28th Mar 2005, 14:58

I havnt posted on PPrune for a long time but I felt that this was response worthy. I was first diagonised with Type 1 diabetes last November. I spent almost 2 weeks in hospital. It took me a long time to come to terms with sticking myself with a needle everyday for the rest of my life. So when the day came for me to start injecting myself, I 'stabbed' myself twice and bent the 6mm needle before I could puncture the skin!! So anything more than gentle nick and the needle is useless!

Its just noteworthy for the terrorists!!