View Full Version : USAF F15 Defeated by Indian Su27?
DaveySimon
13th Mar 2005, 04:56
I read a small article about a little discussed military exercise involving the USAF and the Indian AF. I belive it was called "Cope". Apparently the USAF F-15 group didn't do so well against the Indian Su27. I'm just trying to get more information on the exercise, hear a few different opinions ect. Apparently it happened last year around this time. I tried to search the forum to find previous postings but couldn't find any. It would be great to at least be pointed in the right direction.
Thanks for your time...
Cope India (http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-iaf-usaf-su30-f15-article01.html)
Along the same sort of lines, if you have an excellent pilot in an average machine, would he be able to overcome a less able pilot in a far superior machine. I ask this as my boss when I was in FI claimed that he would take his F4 up gainst the 'new F3' any day.
Tink Master
13th Mar 2005, 11:25
KP, perhaps your Boss still shouts loudest in the debrief? Or just smells of wee.
Anyway, reading the not so small print about this exercise, it seems the Spams had their hands tied so much I could have got a few kills; even in an F4! Centre the spike, press to the merge etc.
'Proof' that the F15 can be out gunned these days? Or just a thinly disguised plea to the Senate to continue the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for F22, me thinks.
ChristopherRobin
13th Mar 2005, 12:17
if you can get hold of some of the recent copies of Aviation Week and Space Technology, it did something on it, I recall.
Geehovah
13th Mar 2005, 15:00
This will result in changes as fundamental as when Red Flag first started.
Those of you who know me who have a need to know, get in touch and I'll give you chapter and verse.
Fox3snapshot
13th Mar 2005, 18:06
The USAF conceded in a press statement after the exercise that they had uncovered some fundamental flaws in their training, tactics and the edge has certainly been reduced over the years with some of the more modern Russian equipment.
I do recall however, it was the more capable new SU30's and not the SU27 as mentioned in the previous post. As mentioned in the link provided above and in Aviation Week and Space Technology there were restrictions put on the USAF capability (in the BVR arena I think) which of course pulls things back into perspective.
:cool:
It is not for me to argue his case, however I believe the USN thought he did all right as an F14 pilot during his extended tour with them. All I was asking, is the pilot more important than the ac.
Ian Corrigible
13th Mar 2005, 22:45
They were basic Su-30K/MKs, not the more advanced MKIs (i.e. lower spec avionics and no TVC).
KPax is spot-on as to why Cope India received so much publicity - a nice way of 'reminding' Congress that the F-22 will be needed to take on China's Su-30MKKs....
I/C
Fox3snapshot
14th Mar 2005, 23:13
I might point out here that when I mentioned the more capable SU30's, it was reference to what was in service with the IAF at the time.
Of course they have an even better Sukhoi product now....
;)
Ian Corrigible
14th Mar 2005, 23:34
Point well made (hell, the Sukhoi OKB seems to announce a new designation whenever one of their designs reaches a major TBO...)
;)
I/C
saudipc-9
17th Mar 2005, 03:36
Well lets give a little credit to the IAF pilots too. They might not be as bad as what most folks seem to think.
trap one
17th Mar 2005, 14:50
Guys
As usual the F15 driver will try to BVR the oposition to death. If all he gets to practice against is an F16/F5/TA4 driver that is restricted to Sov GCI tactics then he gets no idea of how to fully fly and thus fight his aircraft.
Once you take the self imposed limitations out then the agressor drivers usually win all the time because they can "fly" their aircraft and thus fight extremly well.
The IAF is a very good mixture of eastern Kit western tactics and flexability of thinking that is continually on alert/stand by, against both China and Pakistan. Thats why they buy the best kit they can, and send their people to the best training they can get.
Other point is an F15 can BVR 4 Mig 21's then AIM9 4 more and finally kill2 more with the gun. If they don't Chaff, Flare, Manoeuvre to defeat the missile/Gun. So the eleventh Mig21 flys in and kills him. Numbers will kill quality kites every day.
Personally I think the USAF training system is pants, with too much resting on a guys career if he screws up in a situation. Yes the original TOP GUN/RED FLAG concepts were needed but they have gone away from the original ideas/debrief/allowing mistakes.
Apart from that what was the GCI like cause I worked with AK F15C's on RED/BLUE and real OPs, when the Brits were controlling them then won no matter which side they were. If the Brits were supplying the GCI to the opposition they lost.
Can I ask my question again. Would you rather have the best ac in the skies with average pilots or the best pilots in average ac. Just a simple question that is probably obvious to the flying fraternity.