want my money back

[spaceman1000]

I am just fed up with this job hunting, is there any way to sell my license and get my money back?

is the CAA blue license: "satisfied or your money back"??(no it is not), is someone on this site interested to buy my ATP frozen?

I sell it half price, I have to warn you, it is a total useless license, unless you are ready to spend in a type rating and pay for some 500 hours building time, with no guaranty of employment.

I feel I have been cheated since I have start to fly( several years ago).
Who to blame?: Airlines, governmnt and flight schools (and passengers??).

Please, do not do the same mistake, if you are considering to become a pilot...FORGET IT!!!! get a life and do something else !!

(now I am waiting to read post of flight schools telling me there is a pilots shortage coming soon... ):{

[Nemanja]

what?!?!?! you don't want to be a pilot any more?
tell us how many hours do you have andwhat are your references?,

[FLYbyWIT]

"Who to blame?: Airlines, governmnt and flight schools (and passengers??)"

Id say your parents are to blame for deciding to spawn such a sad excuse for an individual!

"Please, do not do the same mistake, if you are considering to become a pilot...FORGET IT!!!! get a life and do something else !!"

Good idea! NOW WHY DONT YOU?

[Tinstaafl]

Who told you getting a bare minimum, entry level qualification would guarantee you a job? In any industry, let alone flying. And what employment research did you do prior to starting down the pilot path?

[jamestkirk]

Yet again, people are resorting to insults when someone decides to air a bit of steam about the job market at the moment.

I too are a wannabe looing for that first job. No money, no job prospects and getting older by the day.

Tinstaafi is right. We are at a basic level. We maybe lucky and land a decent job. Or go the instructor route and sell our bodies, souls and speedo's until something better comes up.

Let try and give some support to spaceman1000 instead of questioning his genetic make-up (flybywit)

As my musical hero Darius said:
"There's alot of love in this room..." . Or as we feel it "...on this forum".

Now go spreading

JTK

[X-Centric]

Come on guys give Spaceman a bit of room here, he is only trying to make a point. We can all sympathise with his frustration & he should be allowed to let off a bit of steam; I actually think that he is entitled to a lot more support than has been shown thus far.

Does he also have a point? The flying schools do make promises that are a load of B.S., especially in times of job shortages, their very existence depends on lying to potential students about an impending 'pilot shortage' & promises of FL390 glories to come.

Spaceman, do stick with it &, yes, you may have to spend more than you had bargained for in today's market because paying for ratings when it's your first job has become almost the norm. If you have to work for a couple of seasons as a flying instructor then so be it. I served my time as a flying instructor at White Waltham & it was probably the most enjoyable, rewarding flying that I've done. It sure beats sitting in the cruise for 4.5 hours, through the night feeling like sh1t, knowing that you've still got the return sector to come & Greek handlers/ATC to deal with when you get there! If you have your ATPL(f) then you are well & truly on the way, now start to enjoy your flying & keep applying. If it's your dream then the worst thing that you could possibly do is to stop now. :ok:

[FLYbyWIT]

Sorry to offend, But Spaceman seems to make a living of it. Just look at his recent posts and then try defending him Kirk, If anything Spacey is the one knocking wannabes,open your eyes JTK.

[X-Centric]

Sorry FLYbyWIT I have just searched some of spacemans previous posts & he does sound like a bit of an ar$0le, doesn't he. My well meant words apply to anyone who knows what it's like to be searching for that first break & who is for real! :ouch:

[mikepops]

Have a little compassion, I think we should all chip in and give the poor bloke his money back if it means shutting him up...:hmm:

[and the chap said]

Hang in there chaps and you will get the reward for all your hard work and dedication. There is no doubt that for many, the job hunt is the hardest part of the training. I know it's easy to feel down on occasions, but it is so important to remain positive.

With the right attitude, you'll get a job in the end and when you do, believe me, it'll be every bit as good as you imagined.

Good luck

[Flying Rasta]

Im afraid many more wannabe pilots might find themselves in the same situation as spaceman.

Flying Schools are a business and like all business they want to make money, and if that means lying out of their back teeth about job prospects and the industry malarky, then so be it.

I advise (opinion) all prospective wanabees to get themselves to sit the aptitude/potential-skills tests before parting from their £60k's. Thats if going down the self sponsor route. Because more often than not, you may have the base hours and the base type rating; but if you dont fit the bill you have no real chance in an airline environment.

Many can fly planes but only a few are of REAL commercial pilot quality, the others are just of tw@t and hope affiliation. if you dont have that rare pilot quality....then im afraid its quits for all your dreams.


BUT above all, sheer grit and DETERMINATION is what lands you a pilot job, if you dont posess the above two then you're in the wrong game.

Increase The Peace
And keep it real.

Rasta.
:ok: :ok:

[Craggenmore]

1. Spaceman is out of control...(so are his other 6 or so names that he/she goes by...)

2. Certain flight schools DO employ the biggest fibbers... I recall one in particular who in 2004 said, 'never pay for a type rating'.

Since then his school has teemed up with GECAT to provide a lucrative scheme of conveyor belt graduates who, not content with being 70K poorer, now want to part with an additional, '£16,500 for a Boeing 737 Classic rising to £18,950 for an A320 rating'.

I also know great pilots who passed all exams first time but perhaps won't make great commercial pilots. Until they get on-line and prove themselves, whose to know - Never up, never in as they say...watch what you say Flying Rasta.................

Craggs

[fastjet2k]

all 'spaceman' has ever done is moan about how horrible the industry is, how tough it is to get a job and how awful life is to have dealt him a bad hand. Dya know what, quit whinging and get on with it because there are so many other people on these forums that have no job, that go about their business constructively. Get a life and quit the industry as you are clearly not suited for it.

[Tosh McCaber]

Couldn't help but notice, fastjet2k, that your profile tells us that you appear to be a student and that "you're coming back in April 2006, to a job in an A320/321."

Lucky man. You come over as being very confident. Maybe that explains your lack of sympathy for the many people lured into training by b......t from training organisations, believing that flying transport aircraft is the same as playing with a MS Flight Simulator, or even a light aircraft. They don’t appreciate the realism of the other side of the job- flying in any kind of on the limit weather, disruption of private and family life due to irregular rostering, lack of job security- I could go on.

I wish you well- 2006 is still some time off- I presume that your airline will still be there, awaiting your arrival with enthusiasm.

[VFE]

spaceman1000 = Ronchonner! :}

VFE.

[fastjet2k]

Tosh McCaber,

I would love to see everybody who wants to fly, get a job. If I ever find myself in a position where I can help somebody else, then I will unhesitatingly as I have had so much help and support from so many people who have helped me along the way. However, what I didn't do was slag off the industry at every chance I got and throw my toys out the pram. That's never going to get anybody anywhere and, with the industry being as it is, everybody needs to spend every minute they have constructively trying to get work. I'm sure Spaceman has done that in the past, I'm don't know his background so I can't comment. I can only comment on what he does write on here, most of it being complete self-pitying crap.

My post was based on the history of some of the original poster's comments in the past, as others will testify. He seems to spend a lot of time complaining about the state of things and trying to put other wannabee's off doing it. I know how hard it is, believe me I had to work my nuts off to get it and I'm continuing having to work hard on the ATPL course. I know a lot of people who have licences who can't get jobs, but rather than telling other professionals how crap it all is and sulking, they quietly get on with things and continue to do all that is necessary to help them get there. Believe me, I have full sympathy for Spaceman, I would love to see him get a job because perhaps then we wouldn't all have to read some of the utter tosh that he comes out with.

I do know how tough it is and if Spaceman asks a constructive question then I'm sure he will get a constructive answer from everybody here. In the meantime, I plan to ignore whatever he writes as it's all based around the huge chip on his shoulder.

FJ2k

[Touch'n'oops]

Ladies and Gents

Getting that first job is extremely difficult I agree. This period of time rips at every tender heart string. It killed me watching aircraft fly over head and not knowing when I would be there.

But, we have to except that all of us are pursuing nearly every boy's dream. This industry is all about survival of the fittest and most determined. Spaceman 1000 has a right to explode with his anger on this forum (hopefully stops him going postal) and it is healthy to let it out. However, I do not agree with telling others NOT to go through with it. Let them make their minds up!

If you are looking for that first job, I suggest you get employed by an airline. Working check-in, throwing bags, despatch... all this gives you experience, income and lets you work on meeting the right people.
All of my friends who had jobs within an airline are now employed. This is not one or two people, but ten. I see a relationship there...

So, shout your frustrations if you need to shout and people will be understanding. Apportion blame and you're asking for it...

[Dutchie]

Who to blame?: Airlines, governmnt and flight schools (and passengers??).

Get yourselves a faster internet connection next time and do your research before spending money :rolleyes:

[spaceman1000]

naive you are!!!
do your parents know the situation?
what a surprise when the bank will be after their money!!!
How do you intend to get the 2000h jet, 500h on type.
Do you really think that an airline will look after you with your 200-250 hours of single engine, and 20-25 hours of light multi.
Kids, you are dreaming!
give a look at www.flightinternational.com, see all these ads asking for 500h jet.
or give a look at www.climbto350.com, all jobs are for US citizen only.
Look at all these students at gatwick doing their ATPL, do you really think they will get a job?
look at the number of flight instructors, who can not move on for a better job. Stuck on their Piper Arrow??, Yes they are.And they are happy if they can teach on the multi.

Am I wrong and I say Bullock...OK? ask your flight school about employment (with them), and ask them names of students who have been hired recently. and call them....they will all tell you the same thing, all are looking for an airline job.

I would like too to see this world in pink, but it is not the case.
When I start my training , I was like you.With my friends we were dreaming to fly a B737 ...after school we start to apply, all answers we got were negative.Most of my friend have stoped and came back in their previous job (lack of money, family problems).

the problem is: if you do not find a job within 6 months after you finish your school, the chance to be hire are very slim.(close of 0%). I would suggest you that if you are on a trainingcourse is to look now for a job.
I am unhappy with the CAA, simply because they way they train us is wrong! they do not train us at the airline standards.We spend too much time in a single pilot cockpit during our flight training...




see you flipping burgers, kids!!!:ugh:
sorry! good luck to all of you.

[RoyHudd]

Time to chill, Spaceman.

And no real need for emotional reactions from the rest of us in the pprune world. This guy is seriously upset, and is expressing himself in his non-native language. Not always very clearly. So no point to pick up on details. Poor fellow, say I. Sympathy.

[RVR800]

Great post Ronch

I have to say some of your points are correct.

One point is the creation of a training programme for Airline pilots -it is called the Multi Pilot Rating MPL

ICAO are planning to start it next year

And yes... most of the training is done in an airline simulator

(The initial part is done SE single crew - just for the basics)

[The Potter]

I couldn't agree with Spaceman1000 more. It really does get you down when you are busting your balls to get your first job & no one will give you a break. You & your mates just about scraping by when you see others taken on, with apparently the same or less qualifications than you, by an airline who told you that they weren't recruiting!

Flying schools are mostly a pack of complete liars peddling false hope so that they can fill their ill-run courses which most of the time have absolutely F-all to do with commercial flying. (Radio wave propagation, do a compass swing, pick a field into wind to crash your B757 into!)

However, we all know this but we do eventually get that first break. We jump through the hoops, tick the boxes & we get their. Where did all those guys come from with their 2000 hours total & 500 on type? They came from where some of you guys are now. Stick with it & it will happen. Allow Spaceman1000 to air his views; at least he's generated a thread that opens up debate.

[bleed_air]

i thought that i may just add something here for old spacey! I have just started with Flybe and on the 10 people on our course there are at least 5 that have the minimum hours after finishing a 509 or integrated. Therefore your silly little theory of no one with 200-250 hours getting jobs is wrong! I myself am an ex instructor with around 1000 hours of time on PA28's etc....so YET AGAIN your silly little theory of instructors not getting jobs is wrong! Infact there were 6 or so instructors from Cabair that got jobs last month..further proving that u need to check your facts before throwing an imature paddy that is clearly not getting you anywhere. I hope this would spur people to not give up on that airline job, things are looking up people, Flybe alone are getting 20 more Q400's!! do the maths! :O

[jamestkirk]

My local flying school had 4 instructors and over the past 6 months, 3 of them have now secured jobs with airlines.

I know single engine hours are probably not the best in the world. But, 1000 hours over 200h looks better on a CV.

To be doing such things as multi and IMC training is better than the odd hop to the local area.

I believe this debate is raging due to the fact that there is no consistency, continuity or set perameters to the job market. If there was we would all know what to do and get in line.

Sometimes, it's enough to turn you to prostitution. Giving that is, not recieving. Got to do something to earn money.

[KimboKK]

spaceman, why havent you left for the US? There are so many part 135 operators, that you will be employed for sure! :ok: Think about it!

[spaceman1000]

ah ah!
FI getting jobs?, under what condition? buying a type at astreus with no job guaranty, or pay to work with eagle jet.

Is that what you call getting a job?

I know many guys working in the HR department for an airline, most agree that if you do not secure a job after 6 months or 1 year, they will not look at you.It costs to much to train you.

I agree the best way is to become a FI, but once again, the chances to get a job with no jet time and a real flight experience (3000h, 500 hours jet)is very slim. after paying for your cpl, you have to pay for your FI ticket, then your t/r and MCC.

do not worry kids, in 1 year or so, a new system will be in place. Guys having done their license before 2005 will be screwed.
Airlines will pick up (maybe) guys with the new JAA license including more hours on multi pilot aircraft.So once again, you will have to pay a school to make a special"conversion course".

Next time you go in the CAA offie (or any JAA office), ask them how they will help you to get a job.(if you do not have to pay for that)...circa 2000 UNEMPLOYED pilots in UK, 2500 in france, 2000 in germany, 2000 in spain, 800 in portugal, 2000 in italy, etc,...
pilots needed for 2005?circa 1000 .

Kids, please, no ketchup in my burger, thanks!!!


:p

[Grass strip basher]

Spaceman I'm curious have things really changed that much in the aviation job market since you started your training or were you just too ignorant/young/naive back in those days to believe the people who are constantly telling wanabees just how tough it is to land a job?

It is posted on pprune day in day out by those people in the know and with more experience than yourself just what a tough industry it is, so if you had done your research you should have fully known what to expect.... no offence intended but surely it can't have come as a complete surprise to you or anyone else for that matter?

If you really fell for the sales and marketing pitch of a flight training organisation then I do feel sorry for you. I do have some sympathy with people coming straight out of school with little experience of how the world works and racking up £70k of debt without any real appreciation of the value of money because they have secured their loan on mum and dads house. Those people I agree probably do need a little bit more protection than they are currently getting. But in general for anyone who goes down the ATPL route IT IS A GAMBLE and one that should not be taken on lightly..... geeeeeez how many times has that been written in this forum???

Having spent the last 2 years reading the trials and tribulations (and indeed successes.... well done to those who have recently landed jobs) of pprune forumites its strikes me as obvious that you should always have a back-up plan just in case you don't land that job. What was yours Spaceman?

So as us Brits say pull yourself together man, stiff upper lip, stop whinging and get out and do something to improve your situation. If that involves flipping burgers to save up enough money to get an instructors rating that will get you one stage futher up the ladder then go flip burgers... there's no free lunch in any profession these days least of all aviation. Why don't you go out and be proactive to improve your chances rather than blaming everyone else and thinking the world owes you a living.

Good luck anyway, you do have my sympathy even though your moaning is getting a little tiresome. Hopefully next time you post you can tell us a little bit about how you are going about improving your chances rather than just having a go a variety of different organisations that frankly owe you nothing.

[TRon]

This guy really makes me laugh. I just think he is winding everyone up and we are rising to it!

I dont think anybody who has passed an fATPL could actually be that stupid!

[cosworth211]

I'm a 26 year old wannabe with a PPL and I'm only too fully aware of the difficulty ahead of me, as I plan to join EFT's integrated APP in September.

It seems apparent to me that alot of people are jumping into this without any sort of contingency plan.

It seems there are a few precautions to ensure your survival, but they seem to be ignored by many.

These days IMHO it's insanity to start this route without a degree or experience in a career you can return to after your training while you wait your lucky break. It also seems to make sense to choose a course that offers hour building through flight instruction, to improve your chance of that lucky break.

Upon completion of your course, if that break takes a long time to materialise at least you will have a FI qualification, and a chance to secure some hour building work with your local school. And in my case I can use the bus/marketing degree i'm just finishing to join an airline in admin or junior management, and start sleeping with a girl from HR!

Remember there are alot of people that are getting that break, and from what I read its down to their hard work and determination, and I guess they are too busy flying jets to comment on this thread!

[Re-Heat]

Cosworth,

I can only agree fully with all you say. I too am in the position of considering only now at age 24 going to do an integrated course (with PPL & UAS behind me) - those who embarked upon licences while I was jealously watching on from both university and my current job (read backup career) have either fallen by the wayside through lack of cash, lost heart in the process or are struggling as flying instructors.

The only people I personally know who are sitting in the RHS of a jet at my age are in the RAF - this year they too are subject to uncertainty with only 15 pilots being taken on at Cranwell.

The role is constantly on a knife-edge, with commercial pressures on an underperforming industry not to mention the Class 1 medical that could render many unemployable as pilots in an instant.

To dive into the industry without full awareness of the issues may in fact be one of the reasons why employement is not found immediately. Rationally, the development of a backup plan is paramount to success - the ability to earn money to keep you independent and able to make choices about the route you follow comes before throwing yourself headlong into the industry through the pure love of flying. Maturity to put yourself in that position and act rationally would - I think - be thought of more highly by any employer among candidates with otherwise similar hours and experience.

I will reserve judgement until I too have been through the process and found myself a flight deck position, however the ability to see the situation relatively objectively is an advantage now.

I hope you find a job Spaceman1000 - however I wonder why you posted this thread. Are you really attacking the industry into which you entered fully knowing the consequences, or are you really trying to seek approval and sympathy for your decisions so far to make you feel better? If so you have come to the wrong place.

[arpansingla]

I know someone at the age of 24 who is flying for BMI Baby so its not all doom and gloom.