BA cabin crew strike ballot!

[Hot Wings]

Having failed to agree with the company, BASSA and CC89 are to ballot their members for industrial action. The reason behind this is the company's insistance that the Jan 2004 pay award be linked with a new sickness policy. Cabin crew sickness is on average 22 days per year, however BA have little compassion for granting any requests for days off, etc...

Currently, many flights are being cancelled or have premium cabins closed due to a shortage of cabin crew - due to high sickness levels, poor morale and the fact that they are only able to train 90 new cabin crew per month; which barely covers the number of crew going on maternity leave!

[GS-Alpha]

due to high sickness levels, poor morale and the fact that they are only able to train 90 new cabin crew per month; which barely covers the number of crew going on maternity leave!

But have these levels increased at all recently? I very much doubt it. The cabin crew shortage is actually down to poor planning. They cannot train up quickly enough, because they have allowed levels to get too low before they started recruitment again.

They may have assumed the cabin crew would sign up to the new AMP, and sickness levels would go down. But that was a silly assumption.

[TopBunk]

GS Alpha
They cannot train up quickly enough, because they have allowed levels to get too low before they started recruitment again.
There may be an element of truth in that, however, the real underlying problems are:

1. the average 22.9 days per year sickness taken by Cabin Crew (source BASSA) with the resultant levels of standby crewing required - Longhaul and Shorthaul.

2. the archaic rostering agreements (esp in shorthaul) which means they will not stay on an aircraft at LHR on arrival to go somewhere else but need to go and rest for at least 90 minutes, and frequently 3+ hours [and getting paid up to £50 each if they reduce below 2 hours!]. This means if they are late they frequently lose subsequent sectors, again requiring extra standby crews. [If you go into the Compass Centre you will see about 100 cabin crew sitting around].

This means their productivity averages 40 flight hours per month in Shorthaul vs 75 for pilot colleagues.

[zed3]

Two of my last three flights from Manchester (1730) back to Dusseldorf within the last two months have been cancelled . The last I believe due to cabin crew sickness . It was due to depart at 1730 from MAN and was not cancelled until 1850 and we were put on the 1930 flight , fine BUT . It was around eating time , BA wouldn't give any info and I knew that if we went to the restaurant and ordered food the flight would be called , so stayed hungry for the bread roll later . The way for a premium airline (self sold) to win customers , NOT.

[Rainboe]

It's worth pointing out that this extremely low productivity coupled with the very high pay many old contract cabin crew are on (still the majority of crew) means that cabin crew are on a higher pay/hour than most shorthaul and longhaul pilots! It takes 2 weeks to train a cabin crew member.

[GS-Alpha]

I totally understand what you are saying TopBunk, and I wish things were not like this. But unless there has suddenly been an unexpected increase in sickness etc (which I do not believe), then the reason for the lack of cabin crew is purely the fault of the managers and planners. They know the system they are working with.

Personally, I think they assumed they would be able to push the cabin crew into signing up to the deal before now and so left the recruitment until the last possible moment. Someone counted their chickens before they had hatched, and that was a mistake. They are so desperate for crew now, that I hear they are taking anyone who gets as far as interview (even though they were rejected at this stage initially).

As for sorting out the inefficiencies within BA, I don't think it is ever going to happen, because we will be bankrupt long before.

[hobie]

Maybe a new CEO might be able to fix the problem long term ..... how about Willie Walsh? ...... ;)

[Mini mums]

I think TopBunk has hit the nail squarely on the head. 40 flight hours per month, due to inefficient turn-rounds, and archaic industrial agreements, mean we deserve to go bankrupt. If it weren't for the LHR slots it might even be Rod's preferred method of dealing with the problem.

I say let them strike - give me a tabard and I'll perform their safety role, and service - I'd even manage a smile which might shock some of our regular passengers.

If you paid me the same as a CSD, I'd be happy with the pay rise.

Rod - if you're reading this, get back to work - and please sort out this f**king mess.

I would love to have a good working relationship with our Cabin Service colleagues - but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the Nanny State that BA provides for them.

BA is talking about lowing the gear on approach 300' lower and saving a hundred grand a year in fuel bills. I say sort out Cabin Services, get rid of CSDs and save several million. Fire Mike Street and Joy Horden and bring the lot back under the umbrella of Flight Operations, save several more million in pointless middle management.

Let the sanctimonious rebukes begin . . .

[nurjio]

Lord help 'em, I hope this thread fizzles out before BA's dirty washing is fully aired again...

Meanwhile, I offer a cryptic clue for a money saving scheme to the current or indeed the future BA CEO:

A recent BA 747-400 tech log entry read as follows.... "CSD's office seat worn" ......take note Willy, and learn.

nurj

[jerrystinger]

BA's productivity levels are renowned for being dire, but has anything changed? No. No frills airlines are coming out way above "established" carriers, like BA, when it comes to profitability and productivity and even customer satisfaction. BUT, my opinion is don't kick the cabin crew and pilots at BA because it is the system that is at fault and the "system" allows them to get away with privileges that ultimately are running the company into the ground.

Just tossing a coin to see whether my flight with BA will be canx because of the crew! Heads or tails?

[411A]

What BA really should have done is train up large numbers of CC six months ago, then let the old hags go on strike...sack the lot (selective termination, on a large scale), then hire new faces.
'Tis called....customer satisfaction.

Oh yes, the boys go too, if they create 'problems'.

[oldandskint]

Be very carreful when making rash statements about sacking 'old hags' and 'old' contract' cabin crew. You may have a point but......
How many 'old contract' 'high earning' pilots are in BA today??
Plenty!
How many guys and girls out there with their nice new ATPL's who would pay for their type ratings and jump at the chance of working for BA for less than half current rates?
Plenty!

Think about it.

[maxy101]

I see it's all over now....BA have caved in yet again....no doubt lots of bottles of nicked champagne will be toasted tonight.

[Max Angle]

Maybe a new CEO might be able to fix the problem long term ..... You can be sure the cabin crew will be in his sites as will the highly unionised ground operations staff. With Walsh in charge there will be some BIG changes at BA for some groups of staff and I suspect he will not cave in as easily.

[Anti-ice]

Actually, FYI, cabin crew sickness is well under budget....

Many crew actually come in sick because they are too scared to ring in sick.

They have recruited too late into an exodus of crew leaving,going on maternity,retirements and so on....

STOP blaming the cabin crew.

Perhaps if you were down the back of the aircraft with a host of germs,viruses and bacteria floating around , and you were fatigued from your 50-60hour week,you would succumb to something and be off too ?

All this cc bashing is ridiculous, as they who bash really don't know what they are talking about..... grow up.

[HZ123]

CC sickness is well under budget ? Compared to whom or what. That said the whole of the company is still showing very high levels of casual sickness. As someone has stated the BA management seem to cave in on every challenge.

I wonder if Willie Walsh will be able to sort out the mess that we are still in and will get deeper into as T5 approaches.

[Mini mums]

STOP blaming the cabin crew

Anti-ice, it's not pilots who average 22.9 sick days per year - who else should we blame?

OK, I can hear you shouting this at your PC screen, BA are to blame for not having a better ROSTARing system.

I'm sorry, but the system at BA is far better than VS or BD, and their sickness levels are far lower - as is their pay.

All this cc bashing is ridiculous, as they who bash really don't know what they are talking about..... grow up.

What a pathetic retort - "grow up."

I'm looking forward to Willy joining us - I'd give up 10% of my pay to get rid of CSDs, have 2 pursers on a LH aircraft, 1 on SH. Maybe then we could compete and have an airline of which we could be proud.

75% customer satisfaction . . . you know why? The CSDs fill in the forms themselves - caught in the act!

I can't tell you how pleased I am to be flying with the new crew who have worked for other airlines - they're a breath of fresh air. Friendly, fun and they appreciate the benefits of working for BA - how long before they believe the BASSA propaganda that 22.9 sick day per year is acceptable?

[Carnage Matey!]

and you were fatigued from your 50-60hour week

Of which I'd wager at least 20 hours is spent sitting around in Compass or CAT or on a bus and not actually doing anything productive. The 60 hour week is a favourite quote, but the whole picture is that the maximum monthly hours are the restricting factor so if you did happen to work a 60 hour week you could look forward to taking it easy for the next three weeks.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Well I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know that the company has backed down and our backdated pay from JAN 04 will be included in our MAR pay packets The issue of EG300 is no longer attached and wil be resolved seperately.

[Mini mums]

Well I'm sure you'll be pleased when Willy starts and he takes you luddites on - if he doesn't we won't survive, can't you grasp that?

Benchmarking? Compare yourselves to other airlines - you're paid 50% more, but you don't add 50% to the bottom line.

VS pilots similar pay to BA,
VS cabin crew half BA LH cabin crew.

What about KLM, Air France, Lufty? You're paid nearly double them - and they're not a miserable bunch whingers.

With all your MBT days, perhaps you could put together a business model on how we're supposed to compete.

BA couldn't sign you up to an AMP, as they're short of crew anyway and couldn't aford to weaken the weakest link further.

Go back to the shadows - PPRuNe - something about Pilots Forum in there.

[Helli-Gurl]

My general experience with BA I hate to say as pax is pretty poor, they treat passengers with contempt and fellow staff even worse.

I had cause to complain recently as a meal I had pre ordered wasn't onboard leaving me unable to eat anything substantial for 10 hours, at first they thought I was a member of staff on a staff ticket, which I wasn't, I was a full fare passenger, whilst they thought I was a member of staff, I was treated like complete and utter sh*te....inexcusable really!

Once they'd realised they'd f*cked up, I still didn't get an apology, went all sheepish and I got the "it's not my fault so it's unfair of you to complain routine" so I was in a no-win situation!

Never been treated so shabbily by any other airline, not even Ryan Air!!!

Anyway my point is what hope have they got if they're prepared to treat their fellow colleagues so awfully let alone passengers, and why do the Virgin CC always look happy in their work for half the pay and dont seem (and I dont know what goes on behind the scenes, but I do know a few virgin CC) to bitch half as much. The job is hard enough at times as it is so why do they do it?

[Dylsexlic]

Here's a quote:

" If we are to survive the winter, we must cut our costs dramatically. "

This was the BEA Chairman in his Christmas message the 1947 edition of the internal magazine.

British Airways shorthaul operation has a long legacy of high costs to overcome that has not been resolved since then and I doubt anyone here on PPRUNE has the solution - although there are already many offers!

Nothing that BA managers or staff do (or refuse to do) short of closing the shorthaul operation down can ever be as powerful as the market forces that decide whether or not passengers will fly with BA. Passengers vote with their feet at the slightest provocation but over time, will drift back again.

It is price, the schedule and convenience that makes people come back to BA and, dare I say it, the service on board which, compared to some other high-profile carriers, including oneworld members, is often a breath of fresh air.

So for sure, the airline will continue to introduce productivity measures and staff will continue to resist. But even if they take their eye off the ball and ignore the travelling public whilst squabbling amongst themselves, travellers who defect will eventually drift back once the airline resolves it's latest spat.

The question is will this be in enough numbers and in a short enough time to keep the shorthaul operation viable and will the end result justify the squabbles?

Perhaps the answer is to halt the shorthaul operation, take a hit on the profit, make the productivity changes they want, put the rosters they want in place, change salary structures and career paths, remove some senior CC positions and relaunch as a low-cost full service carrier and restart operations.

Either way, passengers will defect but this way, the end result may well be better for everyone. ;)

[Re-Heat]

The problem is that the union agreements and the management are both archaic state monsters of the past – the implementation of policies that monitor and support staff in equal measures are essential to bringing BA into the modern world.

The ability of cabin crew, management, drivers and other support staff to maintain their privileged positions of relatively high pay for the industry and a large number of staff – where others have managed easily with fewer – is simply a product of that heritage and continue to influence the thinking that perpetrates what the cabin crew on this thread write.

This has continued as the company – though forced on European routes to face low cost competition and up the game accordingly – still has a relatively protected position competitively, as no other can hope to compete with the route structure offered by BA to any London-based business. Businesses would not otherwise choose to fly BA these days with the service levels offered in many cases.

That is changing slowly, but don’t doubt that it will change faster once the EU renegotiate to remove Bermuda II.

The cabin crew ballot is quite frankly greedy – HOWEVER against the background of a management system that is ineffective and cannot sell policies such as the sickness monitoring to the staff effectively; their position is therefore entirely understandable.

An incorporation of cabin crew management with flight crew management is entirely sensible to reduce headcount at management level and enhance management of all crew with manageers who are effective for all staff, thereby eliminating any infighting between these two departments whose safety critical function is eroded by constant bickering and misunderstanding of each other.

Face facts though – with higher fuel costs in the future, the wages paid for what is effectively a job that can be done (legally) with just a few days training are excessive. The premium on top of that for ensuring a good cabin service above competitors and London weighting should not create a package anywhere near as high as it is.

Cabin crew / flight crew pay comparisons are irrelevant, as the latter requires 18 months training and in these days significant capital outlay.

The real comparison is with ground jobs that require erratic working hours in customer service roles with a strong element of responsibility. In this case grossly overpaid is not unjust. How can pay that – incorporating allowances and flight & duty pay – exceeds that of many professionals and graduates be justified? Recruitment policy should perhaps be reconsidered, when one experiences the appalling service levels of particular staff across all cabins – that is management’s problem again however.

All those are moot points however where the management and staff cannot work together. Blame never entirely lies with any one side.

[airspeed999]

Rainbow said some cabin attendants at British Airways earn more than some pilots.
Is that really true?
I can't believe people who push trolleys are paid more than the pilots flying the aeroplane?
As a regular passenger and BA shareholder, I think that's bizarre and stupid. How did BA get into such a mess?

Average of 22.9 days sick a year!!!
That's the equivalent of more than a month a year off for so-called sickness. Sounds more like ripping the company off to me.

[sixmilehighclub]

AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Rainboe - It takes 2 weeks to train a cabin crew member.
Correct. - If you train them for 24 hours a day, seven days a week and cut out some of the important drills required by JAR.


Petitfromage - What germs, bacteria and viruses......that is a complete old wives tale. In modern jets the cabin air is completely replaced every 3-5mins. Any air that is recirculated is through Hepa filters. Aircraft cabin air is statistically much better quality than office aircon.
Air conditioning is not the problem. Cabin crew members can come within a metre of up to 800 individuals per day! I've lost count of the amount of passengers with viruses, colds and coldsores who've boarded an aircraft, yet most airlines forbid crew operating with colds, flu, coldsores, rashes, within 24 hours of vomiting, diarrhoea, etc. They get an infection then can't fly if affected by the antibiotics prescribed. Its also a physical job and injuries often occur meaning they cannot fly, but can work in the office. All the above is perfectly fine if you're brave enough to struggle into an office, on the ground you dont know when youve got blocked ears!

Crew need to be physically fit, be legally fit to handle food under health and safety regulations, carry out medical procedures and not sniff all over pasengers, in their drinks, their food, etc.

Flying effects your body more at altitude too.

Flight crew are likely to go through some of these problems, but with respect dont have to face the passengers or handle food.

Also if a BA Shorthaul LHR cabin crew member goes sick on the last day of a working block, then has three days off, and phones in fit the day before they are due back, thats FOUR days off sick.
Days off are counted as sick days, 'weekends' off in offices arent.

[Re-Heat]

Correct. - If you train them for 24 hours a day, seven days a week and cut out some of the important drills required by JAR.
How long do charters take? Post a figure anyone in the know if you have it.

Air conditioning is not the problem. Cabin crew members can come within a metre of up to 800 individuals per day! I've lost count of the amount of passengers with viruses, colds and coldsores who've boarded an aircraft, yet most airlines forbid crew operating with colds, flu, coldsores, rashes, within 24 hours of vomiting, diarrhoea, etc. They get an infection then can't fly if affected by the antibiotics prescribed. Its also a physical job and injuries often occur meaning they cannot fly, but can work in the office. All the above is perfectly fine if you're brave enough to struggle into an office, on the ground you dont know when youve got blocked ears!
So do nurses, and all of their charges are actually sick as well...

I don't know many people who are either productive or come in when sick on antibiotics in an office environment - others don't want to catch it, and you can't concentrate on office work either.

Also if a BA Shorthaul LHR cabin crew member goes sick on the last day of a working block, then has three days off, and phones in fit the day before they are due back, thats FOUR days off sick.
With all respect, two days off around a weekend counts as four days sick in the office as well. I cannot comment on your company agreement you mention above, but statutory calculations of sick days in the office are very similar.

Stop making excuses...

[Carnage Matey!]

Same deal with sickness for pilots. If you go sick then you are classed as sick until you return, even if you weren't rostered any duties. Yet we still manage to be sick half as often as crew, even with more stringent medical requirements. I defy anyone to claim there is not a culture of 'sickies' amongst BA cabin crew. I know it. You know it. Every CC in BA knows somebody who does it, often on a regular basis. The question is how to tackle. EG300 is a blunt and ill-conceived tool, but tackle that culture they must.

[sixmilehighclub]

Of course theres the other issue with the fear of taking time off sick, or losing allowances, leading to crew coming into work and spreading it around.

Edited to comment on Re-Heats reply:

Charter training is usually 4 - 6 weeks. Scheduled airlines about the same. Longest I know of was 7 weeks but that was a start up.
Core legal elements are SEP (safety, emergency, equipment, rules, etc). Then aviation medicine and service training are offered. Airlines add in anything else they feel is fundamental to the business.

But then the crew are only there just to serve tea and coffee isn't that right Re-Heat? Hence why they only need 2 weeks. I look forward to seeing vending machines on crewless flights in the future. I'm sure the CAA can bend the regs a little.

An ear infection isnt contageuos as far as I know but antibiotics are used to treat it. Infections occur from initial colds, etc. BA rule is that you must take them for 24 hours clear of duty then if no side effects, you may fly.

Like Carnage, I know of crew who go sick for fun, unfortunately they create people like me that feel they have to make excuses for a sprained foot or a bunged up ear.

Rant over.


:\

[Big Tudor]

Perhaps the answer is to halt the shorthaul operation
That was the proposal back in the '90's when the franchise agreements were the big thing. The idea was all of the short-haul and feeder services would be operated by franchise or partner airlines, leaving BA mainline to concentrate on the long-haul side. Wonder what happened to that idea?

Anyway, back on track. If the CC unions think that 22.9 days sick per year is acceptable then they are living in a different world. Sick leave is not part of your annual entitlement, contrary to what some people seem to think. :mad:

[sevenforeseven]

Shut the airline down, new contracts for C.C. take it or leave it!!
I can bet all the C.C will take it.
Look what happened at Swissair (Swiss).

[Re-Heat]

But then the crew are only there just to serve tea and coffee isn't that right Re-Heat?
Neither said nor thought that; it goes quite against my prior comments on integration of the whole crew to ensure safety-related cooperation.

There is however no legally-required CAA position-holder in cabin crew management over cabin crew who is required to be cabin crew, nor individual licence as such. Perhaps that is the answer to re-instill the safety-related nature of all.

4 weeks training is what most will get in any role in any large company, be it legally required or not. That rather reinforces my point on the transferability of your skills.

[Lou Scannon]

It would seem that the only people who support BA cabin crew claims are.....BA cabin crew.

Certainly the BA flight deck (who sometimes earn less) or other airline cabin crew who know just how quickly replacements can be trained and in the job, don't.

Sounds like they should make hay whilst the sun shines...and start collecting four leaf clovers!

[Blind_Rivet]

I see BACX have inherited BA mainline hosties! Look whats happened there. Profitable franchises bought by BA and F~~~d up!!

Get rid of em!!

Pay them the industry going rate and allow the airline to compete, especially on short haul where competition is red hot.

That applies to CC, Dispatches, Tug Drivers, Check-in staff etc etc.

There is no room for hangers on who think they have a right to a job that pays more than some of our countries nurses for example.

Sort em out Willie!!

[Shuttleworth]

Paid more than nurses heh?

(Dont be stupid.)

Long haul cabin crew at BA can get £1700 pcm in allowances alone.

Add that to a basic salary and they take home more than doctors.

A CSD will NETT £3300 per month .

( for ref; hospital doctors will not make that unless they make it (after 10 years) to consultant level which is a whole different kettle of fish)

[glos]

Shuttleworth. You are talking out of your A***.

I am a CSD, full time with many years of valued service.

I have never nett £3300 a month.

In fact this year I have only just gone into 40% tax.

Just work that out for yourself, either Gordon Brown isn't earning a penny out of me or I'm taking home a fraction of what you think.

[Diesel]

glos

Don't know about the 3300 fig but the 40% tax issue is a little misleading so so much cash is earnt tax free given the nature of allowances.

[glos]

The only elements that aren't taxed are 64% of meal allowances which are currently hit by the low dollar rate to the pound and DOA's which is only £7.25 a day.

All airlines in the UK have tax reliefs.

[nurjio]

Hey glos, you say "I am a CSD, full time with many years of valued service"....

....valued by whom?

[sevenforeseven]

Glos, I will not call you a liar but I think conservative with the truth is more like it. BA CSD DOES GET MORE THAN HE AND THE REST OF HIS TROLLY PUSHING MOB ARE WORTH.

[Mini mums]

Who would have thought you'd get to be a higher rate tax payer for handing our customer feedback forms and eating first food, my-oh-my you're hard done by. Try comparing what you do to our undervalued nurese/teachers/soldiers/sailors/airmen - I doubt they come anywhere near paying 40% tax even after many years valued service.

Well said sevenforeseven.

[keeperboy]

What is it with people always complaining that BA crew are greedy and recommending sacking them all and replacing them with cheap labour etc etc? Is it jealousy? Or something else? I don't get it.

I started at BA (LHR) four years ago, so am on the 'new contract'. BA is the third airline I have worked for as Cabin Crew, having worked for bmi and Virgin before. FINALLY I am really happy to work for a company that I feel treats me well, looks after me and pays me well.

I typically earn around £1800 per month (take home/net), sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. I know this is more than I have ever earned before with other airlines and I feel privelidged to work for an airline that pays me so well. As sad as it sounds money is probably the best motivator you can get. After four years I still come to BA with a positive, motivated attitude. I get on the aircraft with a smile on my face and a 'can do' attitude. I feel happy to be there, well rested and happy earning good money. And I know that the only way to continue with the conditions and pay that I have is to do my part to keep our customers happy and coming back. There is no way I want to go back to earning £1200 a month and working like a dog for another airline!

Most of the people I work with are of the same opinion as me. Not with their head in the clouds taking their conditions for granted. We do get in the galley and chat about what Virgin or bmi or airtours or britannia was like to work for....and what they pay. And none of us want to go back there. I can pretty much count on one hand the amount of collegues that have (voluntarily ) left to go work for another airline.

There are some that slip through the net....hate the airline, hate the job, hate passengers. But they are the minority.

What is the point of saying stuff like 'do a swiss and sack them all and re-employ new ones'?? Swiss was bleeding like hell, BA is the most profitable airline in the world in 2004 (source ft.com). And do you know what contributed to BA's massive profits??? The hard work, professionalism and loyalty of it's crew!

I'm sure over time our working practices will change slowly. But it will always be a trade-off of what the company gives to the crew and what the crew give back to the company. The same way pay deals work in ANY industry.

[Lucifer]

After four years I still come to BA with a positive, motivated attitude. I get on the aircraft with a smile on my face and a 'can do' attitude. I feel happy to be there, well rested and happy earning good money. And I know that the only way to continue with the conditions and pay that I have is to do my part to keep our customers happy and coming back.
I think you have a great attitude by the sounds of it, and are obviously an asset to the company. The problem is that many of your customers - especially longhaul - experience staff who are as far from your description as you can get, and have the attitude to go with it.

It is them whom are being attacked by the comments on this thread, and those who benefit from taking sick days as part of their 'annual entitlement' who are most opposed to the sickness management policy.

Please understand that many crews are great, but a large minority really get on everyone's goat, and a re very poor passenger PR.

[radeng]

As SLF in the past few years on BA in world traveller, world traveller plus, club Europe and club world, I've never had occasions where the CC were other than at least 'Correct'. That was two occasions out of well over 150 flights in 3 years. The rest of the time, they were excellent

Unlike other airlines - America West, Air France and SAS who were universally pretty awful.

But I speak only as I find, and it's easy for others to have had crap treatment on a flight where I didn't. BA do seem pretty bad on having diet tonic in economy and WT+ on long haul, though!

I guess it comes down to the fact that any cabin crew can be pi**ed off given certain circumstances, and this then reflects on how they treat the slf.

American, however, seem to have permanently pi**ed off cabin crew - and so the slf (even in business class) pay the penalty!

[submariner]

I too used to travel regularly as SLF with BA, both club and cattle. I think we are going a bit off the original topic, but I felt I should add to the ongoing arguments.

I have not travelled with BA since 2001 due to CC. early that year I had 2 return flights to different middle east destinations. The first was club. The cc was worse than useless and came close to being offensive. Although only a 1/4 full, I was told my meal of choice had ran out and I would have to make do with the alternative. She was surly and arrogant. I did not wish the alternative and my partner (work colleague) decided to share her meal with me. Later in the flight I decided to utilise the free chocolates only to be informed that it was 'too close to meal time and was unavailable'. Normally I would have been angry at this treatment but both myself and colleague thought it was actually quite funny (and no, I was not drinking alcohol).

Another cc however had been watching her colleagues performance and once her colleague was out of sight, offered a meal from the first class and apologised for her behaviour.

On the return, (unfortunately cattle class), I was offered only biscuits and cheese and no other meal was offered for the whole flight. The cc was upset that I had the audacity to ask for a wine also. The flight actually returned to LHR early and therefore the cc used that as an excuse not to provide breakfast at all. All this for a princely sum of around £1,400 single. unbelieveable.

Overall, ba cc's are the worst I have ever encoutered, which is a shame because I know there are some genuinely good staff, but unfortunately they are in the minority, and Pax always remember the poor staff in such incidents.

So therefore due to these particular incidents (plus the fact that it is almost impossible to use BA point to point, unless you live in capital cities - eat your heart out ryanair) - that BA have lost my custom.

As to the salary structure, I would not wish to deny anyone a reasonable salary for a reasonable job, but staff will have to lose their holier than tho attitudes and provide a decent service to warrant their pay.

BA have lost their way short haul and this has led to the great SLF of this country to utilise LCCs to european destinations to connect with long haul, which leaves ba long haul vulnerable.

however, there appears to be a lot of internal grief to overcome first with the incessant bickering which seems rife from top to bottom.

[lefty]

Average 22 days a year sick leave!!! Hello! That is approaching civil service levels. This has nothing to do with sickness and everything to do with a fractured sense of entitlement to extra days off. Someone looked at you the wrong way, take a day off. Need a new frock for the night out, take a sick day. Kid sick and hubby's at work, no problemo, another "sick day". The whole year, you've never been sick, yet 22 days have piled up.
It's theft plain and simple.
Keeperboy seems to hold the traditional attitude. Imagine that, taking a sick day when you are actually sick. Bloody hell!!

[Volmet South]

The only elements that aren't taxed are 64% of meal allowances which are currently hit by the low dollar rate to the pound and DOA's which is only £7.25 a day.

That's nearly a day's flying pay at BACX :*

Perhaps you should have trained to be a pilot instead.

[yeoman]

Keeperboy: You blithely state that after 4 years with BA as CC you take home £1800 pm. You then say that you don't have your head in the clouds.

Humour me, how much does a 20 year Cabin Manager take home outside BA? Clue: Think lower.

My take home on my first jet job was about £1800 when I started 7 years ago and it ain't changed radically since then for new hires. Granted, it improves drastically as time goes by but even at the 4 year point it is not a world off £1800.

To echo others, sadly I am forced to fly BA S/H about 5 X a month. It is dreadful from check in to baggage claim, so much so that I now drive the M6, M40, M25. Apologies to the non Brits but these are motorways that accurately reflect hell on earth. If anyone knows of a way of driving across the Atlantic, give me a shout because that is even worse.

Whatever the reasons for staff behaving the way they do, the fact remains, they behave the way they do and that is badly.

[GS-Alpha]

I have recently been considering a career change...

One of the areas I looked into was Medical Physics. This career path and pay scale was structured the same as all clinical scientists, which encompasses a very wide range of disciplines within the NHS. Incidentally they are among the highest earners in the NHS excluding doctors because they are in high demand. I mention this particular career because it has many of the same features as flying such as; antisocial hours and dealing with the public.

The training required for such a position would entail a good science degree (2.1 or 1st), a specialised post graduate degree (usually of a research nature, so two years or more), and then one or two years in house training... This is a total of about six or seven years of specialist training. After four years at work, a clinical scientist can expect to earn considerably less than the £1800 monthly take home you talk about. Not to mention the first five unsalaried years of university!

Now do you still think you earn a fair wage? I knew mainline BA cabin crew earned a lot, but I am staggered to read you can earn that on a NEW contract!

[ETOPS]

I knew mainline BA cabin crew earned a lot, but I am staggered to read you can earn that on a NEW contract!

Funny - that's what Willie Walsh said!

[airspeed999]

Average 22 days a year sick leave!!! It's theft plain and simple.
Well said Lefty. :ok: What is it with people always complaining that BA crew are greedy and recommending sacking them all and replacing them with cheap labour etc etc? Is it jealousy? Or something else? I don't get it.
It's very simple. I'm a fairly regular passenger and cabin stewards/stewardesses being overpaid is part of what keeps the fare price up and causes cuts in other areas.
I'm also a BA shareholder (small investment in company terms, but big for me) and I'm horrified by what I read.
Do you think waitresses outside the aviation world take home anything like £1800 per month?
Read GS-Alpha's post. I know some cabin attendants have good academic qualifications and choose to do the job for the travel and perks. That's their choice. You don't NEED good academic qualifications to do the job and it doesn't take long to train cabin attendants.
I hope the new CEO sorts the scandal out.

Sally

[Mactom]

GS-Alpha,

BA crew take what the union negotiate for them. Whether it is fair or not has nothing to do with it. If you want to go in to Medical Physics then do so - nobody is forcing you. It's up to YOU to decide if you think you will be earning a fair salary at the end of your training isn't it?

Why do you think these people work for BA? Because most of them have worked for other airlines with crappy conditions before joining BA and BA have the best terms and conditions in the country if you want to fly as cabin crew surely. Seems like common sense to me. Why would you stay in one carrier when you could go elsewhere, earn more money and get a better lifestyle?

I've not met anyone yet who has turned down a job offer because the salary was too high......

[disappointed]

Dear Sally/airspeed999

As a cabin crew member I am quite aware that many think of us as waitresses in the sky. I just sincerely hope for your sake that next time you fly you don't develope a dvt, have a heart attack, cover yourself in vomit or find yourself on an aircraft where there is an oven fire and hence depend on your 'waitress' to take care of anything other than chicken or beef for you.

I also hope and pray that you never have a son or daughter who wishes to fly as cabin crew, It would be very hard to hear your mother belittle your chosen career in such a way.

[JW411]

Ovens don't usually catch fire unless you forget that you put your handbag in there!

[GS-Alpha]

The point I was making is that compared to the normal world, BA cabin crew have got a very good deal indeed - as have many other job descriptions within the company. If we want the company to be as good as it can be, these things need to change. And then as you say, if the people involved do not like their new terms and conditions, they can change careers or airlines - but in the majority of cases, they will not ever earn ANYTHING LIKE what they are taking home now. Of course these changes are not going to happen over night, but I hope they do happen eventually.

[captplaystation]

Isn't it about time this was "MOVED"? As someone has already said it has been at the top of the page on the principal page of a PILOTS forum for long enough; and YES I KNOW I've just put it back there DUH. . .Please Mods enough is enough.

[Tiger]

I was always told NEVER discuss POLITICS, RELIGION or MONEY!(ie. Don`t tell others what you earn or ask what others earn...you`ll never like the answer :{ )

[Mactom]

Gs-Alpha,

I see you want the company 'to be the best that it can be'. I take it you will be first into see the new Chief Exec to tell him you are earning too much money, your deal is far too good, you don't live in the real world and could he please pay you less each month? Or will your personal terms and conditions be exempt from these changes?

These kind of comments in my experience were usually made by frustrated ground staff at BA who perceived all crew to be overpaid and underworked but of course had never done the job themselves and never would.

[Human Factor]

I will be first through the door to tell WW to benchmark each department against our competitors (AF, LH, IB, etc.). I think you'll find the pilots won't have much to worry about.

[keeperboy]

YEOMAN I DO have an idea of how much a Cabin Manager earns with other airlines and I know I probably take home on par or more than them. And it is for THIS reason that I LEFT the previous airlines I worked for and joined BA. Because I don't want to be a cabin manager for an airline earning £1600 per month. Sorry! Every one of those Cabin Managers working for x y or z airline can log onto britishairwaysjobs.com and fill out the application form for cabin crew if they wanted. But far to often it's 'oh no I don't want to lose all my seniority and be a JUNION again'. Then tough! I'm sorry, but I am not going to feel guilty or selfish for the money I am earning. If I worked for a shop i'd probably want to work for the one that paid the most, if I worked in hotels i'd want to work in a sheraton or inter-continental, not a 'Motel 6'. :D

[Lost For Words]

Okay, so we all seem to agree that BA CC are either overpaid or handsomely rewarded. It just depends which side of the fence you're on.
There have also been many posts describing a culture of 'complacency' with regards to delivering good customer service. I fly LH for BA and frankly I agree.

So here is the big question:
How can BA motivate their CC to do the job properly? (ie. Be charming to the passengers as well as being there to deal with emergencies)
1. Paying more is not an option and hasn't worked so far anyway.
2. Sacking / Rehiring isn't going to do much for loyalty.
3. It has been suggested that some sort of bidding system for work rosters would help...
4. Maybe the CC need to be reminded what a good deal they are on. Show them a proper benchmarked comparison with other airlines?

Answers on a postcard addressed to:
WW
BA Towers
House of the Flowing River

[Shuttleworth]

Disappointed wrote " As a cabin crew member I am quite aware that many think of us as waitresses in the sky. I just sincerely hope for your sake that next time you fly you don't develope a dvt, have a heart attack,"

Jeez! This is a clear example of the pompous, exagerated attitude that you come across with some BA cabin crew. Frankly they don't accept that they are cabin crew!!!!

Not only do they get paid more than hospital doctors - they are beginning to think that they can contribute in a way a doctor can .
Miss "disappointed" - wake up and smell the coffee, please. You are much closer to being a waitress in the sky than you are a clinically qualified person. Lets face it - DVT or MI , YOU have little to contribute . BA's aeromedicine is first class training - but you are still a stewardess. Don't overestimate yourself !!

[oldandskint]

Oh Dear Shuttleworth calm down

If the rear cabin toilet was alight and your arse is on fire at 35000' and the only hope of you getting on the deck safely was the 'waitress' you have so much respect for fighting the fire, would you still have the same respect???

You guys crack me up.


BA have reduced costs dramatically. Yes they could reduce costs more. New entrant cabin crew at BA have an 8k basic and many earn the same as other uk airlines. Yes they have higher earning crew on old contracts. So what. Despite all the abuse they receive on this forum, they are still voted year in year out the best long haul and short haul crew by the likes of Business Traveller. Sorry to remind you of that but they must be doing something right.

Just give the guys a break and stop being bitter

[Anti-ice]

Really, this doesn't warrant a response whatsoever...

90% of you have no idea what you are talking about , obviously.

Perhaps you'd like to have a few infrectious pax coughing over you while you're down on the ground, or collect a 100 used napkins/facecloths/tissues/glasses/cups covered in god-knows-what or just be in the vicinty of 100-300 people for hours and hours and see what happens.

Whether you're flying waw-lhr or sin-lhr, you are going to be confronted by a whole host of bacteria/viruses that you have never encountered/built up immunity to before.
This is without the hazards of food poisoning , however mild/dire, and anything else you may encounter while fatigued/jetlagged/whatever...

You all have this attitude old school attitude of ,well we don't need that...well nor do we , but we are not behind a sealed locked door - we are face to face with them.

Please use some common sense or don't bother with your highbrow contemptuous comments :rolleyes:

[Carnage Matey!]

I take it you haven't heard of the article in a recent edition of The Lancet which reported that the air in an aircraft is much cleaner than the average office and you are far less likely to catch an illness on board?

If the rear cabin toilet was alight and your arse is on fire at 35000' and the only hope of you getting on the deck safely was the 'waitress' you have so much respect for fighting the fire,

Frankly if that was the case I think we'd all be finished. Lets face it, your SEP firefighting skills consist of looking for the candle effect lights in the overhead locker or lav, cracking the door then discharging the BCF. Then the fire goes out. We watch it on the video feed and many of you don't do it well. IF we were burning at 35000ft I'd be heading for the nearest runway or flat bit of sea.

New entrant cabin crew at BA have an 8k basic and many earn the same as other uk airlines
Which UK airlines would these be, because everyone I've met who's come from charter, BMI, EasyJet or Virgin are earning more now

they are still voted year in year out the best long haul and short haul crew by the likes of Business Traveller.
Sorry, Virgin got best long haul last year.
I'm afraid, oldandskint, that you are displaying the kind of complacency thats getting BA into trouble. There is a widespread belief amongst BA cabin crew that they are the best of the best, that their abilites and skills are beyond question. Unfortunately that is far from the case. We've got an awful lot of gash crew, but nobody is willing to do anything about it. Except the CAA.

[farmpilot]

Anti-ice

And what about all the other CC that work for every other airline, are they not faced with the same problems? Yet they do the job with a smile for half the money - well at VS they do anyway.

It's over, everyone's talking about it, the days are numbered for the fat cats. Or big airways are gonna be in even more trouble than they are already.

[gps117]

The trouble being that we will be the worlds most profitable airline?

yawn yawn yawn

[maxy101]

Seems to be in spite of the CC though by the sound of it?

[sixmilehighclub]

I grudgingly agree with Carnage .... complacency thats getting BA into trouble. There is a widespread belief amongst BA cabin crew that they are the best of the best

BA crew have to keep making that extra effort consistently, and the hundreds of management need to move forward with the times to keep BA going, and to improve, which leads me on to....

The problem is that many of your customers - especially longhaul - experience staff who are as far from your description as you can get, and have the attitude to go with it

from interviewing many many long-term old-contract longhaul crew over the past few years, they desperately wanted to move on to pastures new as bored, irritable, and fed-up, but I couldn't offer them any other position that pays the same as they were earning (on the pre 1997 old contracts and older) for the skills they have. They are stuck in a job they don't want to do beacuase they have established a lifestyle in most cases they cannot afford to take a pay cut.

Frankly if that was the case I think we'd all be finished. Lets face it, your SEP firefighting skills consist of looking for the candle effect lights in the overhead locker or lav, cracking the door then discharging the BCF.

Whilst that may be true. The toilet fire I fought a few years back was successfully extinguished and we continued to our destination.

BA cabin crews are on different rates. Theres bound to be angry responses on here as everyone earns different depending on circumstance. New contracts are on a basic which when calculated, would question the minimum wage rule, however crew then earn additional pay for the amount of work they do which brings them in line with other airlines, if they choose to work harder, do more flights, longer days, flog more duty free, then yes they will earn more. In other airlines I have heard crew comment on how they have done more work than their colleagues but earnt the same. How is this fair? I have yet to hear the same complaint from BA crew as the earnings are commenserate with the labour. Having seen the payslips, a low-cost airline last decade paid equal to a BA new contract crew member recently.

[keeperboy]

Oh dear I planned on just reading on the progress here but now feel the need to put my two pence worth in (again!) :-))

I am on the new contract with BA, only been here 4 years. Previously I worked for bmi as well as Virgin (as an IFS). I can definitely say that I earn probably 25-50% more on average for doing 25% less work. That is for sure.

-----'BA crew think they are something special/best in the world'----Blah Blah Blah.

Well, I don't think I am any better at my job at BA than I was at VS or BD. HOWEVER, I gotta say I often went to work with my previous airlines really tired (had little rostered rest), overworked and (especially in the case of bmi) the constant feeling I was being shafted by my employer. I really didn't think that I owed BD or VS anything. I felt they were working me like a dog for crap money so my attitude was probably not always the best. At BA I feel different though. I feel paid and treated well. For the first time I feel a bit of loyalty and appreication for my employer and that probably reflects on my attitude when I come to work.

----The 'old contractors'---------

A lot of these people are on SERIOUS dosh. But you can't turn around and take it away from them! Seriously, some of them are literally the most professional crew I have ever encountered. Others suffer from the 'got a massive mortgage, kids in private school, can't afford to leave' syndrome and that is sad. I used to be in stitches in the galley when I first joined BA. You'd get together in the galley with the old gals and guys and they would complain about how HARD the work and trips have become at BA. I used to laugh. When I told them what sort of rosters I had at midland of virgin they didnt believe me.

Anyhows, BA will officially become the 'worlds most profitable airline' the end of this month, announcing operating profit of GBP525 million. Which is great on the one hand, but on the other it's gonna make it a hell of a lot harder for willie to bargain with BASSA for more cuts.

[oldandskint]

Well said keeperboy!!!

[dancing dolly]

I feel I have to comment on the sickness issue here. I am ba cabin crew on the new contract and I am currently sick. To cut a long story short I had flu which then developed into an ear infection. I have been off work for 21 days now. I am genuinely sick and with 1 infection have been off for three weeks. I do not want to be off work and in fact need to work to enable me to pay my mortgage, I am so bored now I would rather be at work. What are my choices?? Go into work and burst my ear drum???? I dont think so, my health is more important. My case highlights why cabin crew cannot accept the new sickness policy.

[pollypocket36]

I will second keeperboy. I to used to work for bmi and Virgin. Coming to BA had made me feel valued and actually enjoy and appreciate my job. It's a fab company to work for with great conditions. Yes I get paid well. REMEMBER, the company has bought in a NEW contract with the same Ts&Cs but with a much lower basic. Why bitch about our pay and conditions when they have already been reduced so much. I've spoken to many crew who have been there for years and perhaps haven't worked for other airlines. If you are used to 3 day 4 sectors and 2 day 2 sector trips and then that is changed to 3 day 8 sector and 2 day 6 sector you will have a litle moan. I on the other hand couldn't and wouldn't even think about complianing. Coming from VS and BD I have a much better lifestyle. However, these issues are minor compared to ohter issues that currently face us.

Several comments on this forum were very uneccessary and uncalled for. We work as a team on and off the aircraft and going by some of the attitudes, I don't know why you have been employed. Clearly, some of you are very bitter towards crew and Pilots and need to get your feelings and situations sorted out. Lets hope you don't bring it on to the aircraft, FRONT and BACK.
Remember, we are a team, not enemies. We work for the same company. Lets have a bit of support for each other and be rid of the bitterness. At the end of the day, if the s@@@t hits the fan, who cares who gets what!!!!

:ok: Polly

[Doors2Automatic]

411A,

It's good to see since I left this forum a year ago you can still come up with so little!!.

Train up loads and get rid of the old hags........get fresh faces.

You begger belief you really do.I work for BA as a senior crew member.I recently flew with Air Canada from Montreal to Tampa.I would say the average age of the crew was 50+.The service was excellent and the main point is that I felt confident that if an emergency were to arise I had every confidence in their ability.

At BA i have the pleasure of working with a good mix of crew,age,sex,male,female,straight and gay.On ocassions we have the bad one as any airline or in fact any company does but in general I feel very lucky to work with the people I do.

Looks are not everything and maybe one day an 'old hag' may just be the person who saves your life!!.

A biggot of a passenger filled in one of our comments forms and asked the CSD to read it.As requested they did. In front of the passenger they ripped it up!!

Why?,because it read. 'When I fly business Class(Club World) I expect the crew to be pretty Stewardesses and not old bags and gays'.

Is the storey true,YES it came from the CSD who is a good friend.

This guy had one of two things,a very strong wife or a very small ****,so he had to pick on someone.

Which of the two is your reason?!!
;) ;) .

I left this forum last time because of lowlife comments such as yours.This time I'm back to stay.

Doors2Automatic.

[jewitts]

:confused:
I have just returned from a long haul trip (Economy) to New Zealand as a PAX. (Been reading Pprune too often!). Outward leg all Quantas via Singapore, return via Sydney and Tokyo with the last leg to London by BA. All I can say is Chalk and Cheese! Quantas service in the cabin was superb. BA was appalling! The daytime 11.00 am departure from Tokyo started well with a meal service about one hour in. Then the whole way (i.e. 10 more hours) to London absolutely no service from the BA attendants. I even pushed the call button 5 times for a glass of water and no one ever responded to it. In the end I had to walk to the galley and help myself. It seemed to me almost the entire crew were upstairs sleeping. Finally just before descent, a very surley drinks service and dry sandwich was flung in my direction. Having flown with most of the low cost carriers around Europe, I think they now give a better, frendlier service than BA at a fraction of the cost. Believe me I am not just BA bashing for the sake of it! I used to love flying BA. Now I avoid it wherever possible and I fear there are a lot more PAX like me. Something is seriously wrong at BA. High profits for now, declining load factor in Future?

[Doors2Automatic]

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D2A

[woodpecker]

Tell me "doors" how did you send your message from the 777's CSD office while asleep?

Seriously though, the CSD was tearing his hair out the other day.

The service down the back should have been dinner followed an hour or so before landing by a light breakfast.

The doris's dished out the breakfast first, thinking it was an afternoon snack. I honestly don't think anyone noticed.

[Doors2Automatic]

Woodpecker I was'nt asleep in my bed!.As everyone thinks BA have it so great I will keep up the momento........I was in fact in the CSD's on-board jacuzzi with three stewardesses and a businesswoman from club who got bored with her laptop!!!:O .

As regards the meal service you suffered I really have no answer.The meal routines are,or should be known by all.The meal service is normally dictated by the Purser in that cabin on Longhaul and should they wish to change it for any reason ie a delay,or they feel a main meal should be served before a snack or visa versa, they will normally pass this by the CSD.

D2A.

[keeperboy]

Jewitts I read your post in dis-belief.

You pressed your call bell 5 times and no-one came? For this to happen I can think of only two reasons:

Either a) it didn't work

or b) the crew stuck their head out the galley curtain and commented 'oh, its that same guy that called us 10 minutes ago...and ten minutes before that...and ten minutes before that'.

Did you ever ask the crew why, after pressing your call bell 5 times no-one answered? Or maybe you couldn't find one as you state they were 'all' sleeping. The crew NEVER take their breaks at the same time.

I use the LHR-NRT route all the time. I am from Australia and work for BA and always go home via NRT with QF/BA. I find the service on the LHR-NRT route to probably be the best we have! We always have 4 NRT based japanese 'national crew' on board and they are very dare I say it 'japanese' in their ways. They are (almost) faultless. You cannot keep them in that galley for love nor money. Sit on their bums reading the latest copy of OK! no way! They'd much rather do a water round.

I do agree with you, the product can do with improvement (especially the second meal service) but we don't have much control over that.

I am not a BA employee that automatically jumps to the defence of BA when it's being slated (I would never have a free minute if I did!) but your comments just maybe don't convey the entire story about your journey.

Maybe it is your personal opinions to BA that gives you the attitude you have toward them. Check out the opinions of hundreds of others that have flown BA/QF and many others on www.airlinequality.com and see what they have to say about terrible BA and faultless QF.

As for the low cost carriers in europe giving a 'better, friendlier service for the fraction of the cost' here is an example:
easyjet.com Return flight from london-paris, cheapest fare available departing this saturday, returning monday £139.27 plus tax. LHR/MAD/LHR same dates. £229
ba.com Return flight london-paris, cheapest fare, same dates: £53.00. LHR/MAD/LHR same dates £211.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

How unconstructive some of you are.

Money is an emotive subject indeed but you all seem to have lost the point of this thread.

The crux of the subject is EG300 and it's failing to recognise that people who fly are far more constrained to coming in to work (thus as they swipe in confirming they are fit to fly), than people who sit in an office at a desk.

Anyone who disagrees with me please reply and I would hope (deep breath) that all contributors on here who do fly for a living will back me up on that statement.

Thee issue with the holding back of the pay (no matter who gets paid what in the airline or what fleet or what contract you are on), is emotive because it is the annual increment rise with inflation. It's not some big pay rise so we can all go and buy new BMW's, it's what we are entitled to as part of our terms and conditions of emplyment. As I would expect most others who contribute here are.

That is the point of the thread and that is why it came to a strike threat (on all fleets - not just the high earners at LHR but also LGW and the regions.

LINE DRAWN UNDER THAT

On the contentious subject of cabin crew pay. As has already been pointed our they maybe some in our number who are payed very well for their jobs. These people joined at a time when the airline and the industry was very different. However put yourself in their shoes now. You being in their position would you put your hands up and say "the game is up" and take home a grand less a month? Of course not. If your fortunate to have been in the right place at the right time then you coiunt your lucky stars.

Cabin crew that get paid more than pilots are in the minority now and new contracts even for CSD's are not as lucrative as they used to be.

If you believe that cabin crew at BA are paid better than you then feel free to apply. We're having at least 620 new recruits into LGW this year and people form all walks of life are welcome.

BA is still the benchmark for cabin crew in the UK as reguards to pay and T&C's, yes. But if you do pay peanuts I'm afraid you do start to get the monkeys (bring on all the witty and humourous comments).

As for getting paid more than others in other vocations that may do more valued or educated work. Well, that's the world we live in. If employers or the government can get away with paying less, they will. If I was an employer, I would too!

If money is you motivator then becoming a doctor, a pilot, and lawyer, or some other proffesional career is indeed the way to go. If you want a life dedicated to helping the sick, then maybe nurse or caare worker. If like me you are a champion of customer service and love people then you try to find a job where it is all important (I was in retail but sadly even management does not command that much of a high salary), so I came to cabin crew. I just happened to apply to BA and have spent 7 fantastic years at SHLGW and have no plans to leave.

I have made my career decision, please don't knock me for it or my collegues, just because BA choose to pay us more than a nurse or the unions fight hard to keep it that way. Like I said if our life is so easy or so good please feel free to join us.

You may not be rich but you may just be happy.

Regards to all and happy flying.

[ElNino]

Cabin crew that get paid more than pilots are in the minority now

There should not be one single cabin crew member, not one, that gets paid more than a pilot in the company. The reasons for this are self evident. The fact that you imply that the majority of cabin crew were once in this situation is simply mind boggling.

[Rimmer]

For my 10p worth i think a review of CC pay and conditions is long overdue and i hope Willy impliments it,sickness is too high ( we work with pax,cc,pilots,loaders,dispatchers etc and do 12 hour night shifts in the rain and snow without having 22 days a year off ) and the expenses are too high - to counter that though the basic pay for new contract CC is too low and hence a review long overdue.

[BYMONEK]

ElNino

" The reasons for this are self evident"

Please explain? They aren't self evident to me other than the fact B.A pilots should seriously think about joining BASSA/CC89 IF Cabin Crew are on such a good deal.

Stop bitching and get on with flying the plane even if your are 19yrs old,graduated from oxford flying school with 200 hours and consider your job far more important than a CSD's who may have 35 years behind him/her.

The second in command may well have to wrestle with the controls and safely land the plane from a 31,000ft terror dive saving all on board after the Captain collapses but let's be honest.....it doesn't exactly happen often,does it?

[wiggy]

BYMONEK

The reasons should be self evident - accountability, responsibility, and also the little phrase, "Chain of Command", a very unpopular phrase in these inclusive days but still laid down in the Air Navigation Order ( and that's a Law of the Land, not a Union agreement) and available for closer examination in Crew Orders!

By your logic the 35 year CSD should also earn more than the new CEO - you don't mean that...do you?

[Volmet South]

BYMONEK

The second in command may well have to wrestle with the controls and safely land the plane from a 31,000ft terror dive saving all on board after the Captain collapses but let's be honest.....it doesn't exactly happen often,does it?

thankfully it is as rare as the occasions where a CC member saves the day by firefighting in the rear khazi :rolleyes: If the captain were to suffer a heart attack, the FO would at least be at their post and earning their pay when it happened.

The rest of your post is beneath contempt.

[OzzieO]

You know having read some of the posts on this subject I have to say I nearly wet myself laughing.

To the people making comments that are clearly anti-BA cabin crew grow up. Not sure what your agenda is here but its boring and repetitive.

To the BA cabin crew getting so worked up about these childish boring comments stop taking the bait!!!

[NigelsFriend]

Quote OzzyO: To the BA cabin crew getting so worked up about these childish boring comments stop taking the bait!!!

Yes I agree! As BA crew i am feed up just reading this rubbish! Its getting MEGA boring now :\ !!!

[itsinthebag]

Please, for the LOVE OF GOD will you kids stop fighting and play nicely - just wait till your father gets home. There'll be tears before bedtime if everyone doesnt GROW UP pretty damn fast!!!

[Rimmer]

Well what to say,new starter cabin crew get paid C**P and deserve better T+Cs but anyone taking 23 days sick a year deserves a medical.

As for CSDs i thought BA would have the common sense to remove that grade ASAP as its something that goes back to flying boats,paying someone in excess of £68K to supervise tea and coffee is plain stupid!

[OzzieO]

Remember what I said BA folks.........DON'T TAKE THE BAIT!!!!

[BYMONEK]

UMM......Bit of a touchy subject this one eh?

Wiggy

No,that will be YOUR logic.I refered to a junior F/O.No mention of Senior F/O or even a Captain,let alone your new CEO so don't go round putting words into my mouth.Also,as those of you in B.A are well aware,chain of command is no reflextion of pay(regardless of it being 'law of the land').That's why I recommended you all join BASSA. The contributions you guys pay into BALPA are laughable for the service you get in return.

Volmet South

I know for a fact that 4 years ago, a friend of mine, a senior Captain on 744 showed me his total earnings fo the year.It was £154,000. He had been with BA for 32 years.Now, let's take our 35yr old CSD again. Would a figure of £50-60,000 p/a be unreasonable. Quite rightly the Captain gets the pay but as for a brand new cadet in his first year....sorry,the CSD gets it every time for me.......regardless if he's sat on his arse or fighting fires down the back.

You know,if you guys really do resent it this much you should hang up those hats and start pushing some trollies down the back......it's quite an easy job for all the money you know :p

[wiggy]

BYMONEK
Not sure what your point is about the junior F/O vs SFO or Capt, they are still "senior" to the 35 year CSD
You seem to be under the impression the the 200 hr guy does s*d all. Wrong, in the worse case he will still carry the can along with the Captain in the event of an incident or worse still accident - you may recall the infamous Penta arrival at LHR many years ago - sure the Captain lost his "rank", but the new two ringer in the Right Hand seat was also disciplined for failing to monior/intervene when things went awry...and what do you think happened to the CSD?

As for BALPA and BASSA, can't argue with you on that point.

Regards.

[keeperboy]

I reckon the topic is getting a bit off the point now.

I am LHR BA crew (on the new contract) and I agree, some of the Cabin Crew earn ridiculous money. Many of my mates at other airlines say the same about my money!

HOWEVER. Lets say your salary as an SFO is £85,000.00. Your pay and conditions are all fixed within your contract of employment. Then, 10 years later Easyjet starts paying it's SFO's £40,000. On the basis of this your company says YOU should be paid that much as well. Then you start reading posts on here, whinging you are paid too much because a SFO at xyz airlines only earns 'x' amount. Despite the fact that you signed your contract and have planned your life around the money you were told you were to earn, tough luck, people are getting paid less elsewhere, so should you. What would your reaction be? Put your hand up and say 'yes, indeed, let me tear up my contract and get paid half that'. No Way!

The situation at BA is not unique. When a lot of these people joined BA they were in effect 'civil servants'. They worked for a government entity that lost millions of pounds a year and no-one gave a sh**. It is no different at other similar carriers such as QF, AF, LH, AZ, etc etc the list goes on.

On the subject of seniority it is something totally different to dosh. Flying Crew Orders state seniority and rank clearly. Money isn't related. Because you are of higher rank it doesn't state you should be of higher salaries. Most crew earn more than their superiors ('performance Execs') whether they are on the new or the old contract. It's like saying that Rod Eddington is more senior than Tony Blair because his salary is more. Nope!

[BYMONEK]

Wiggy

I must be missing something myself here.I thought seniority was based on date of joining regardless of job title. ie a Captain with 10 years in BA is LESS senior than an 11yr purser. Doesn't this count towards things like staff travel priorities? It's someones rank that is independent so a brand new F/O will have authority over a 35 yr CSD.....on the Aircraft.Wether he/she would choose to enforce it off the Aircraft......
Not trying to put the F/O's job down at all. I'm well aware of the resposibilities placed on young shoulders at times and of the time,effort and money that goes into it. Much more than the 4 weeks or so of Cabin Crew.That is why they still get paid more than the new Cabin Crew members.

My main point is that many people out there think Flight Crew should never be in a situation where they will earn less money than Cabin Crew,regardless of time in Company.
Your referance to the terrible and sad incident at LHR many years ago actually reveals less knowledge of BA than I thought you had.The Captain not only lost his rank but his job.He was taken to court for gross negligence and later took his own life. You say that the 2 ringer was disciplined,and quite rightly so, but may I ask what position this person now holds in the Company?
If, like me you know the answer to this, you'll also know your argument holds no water.

[Doors2Automatic]

Rimmer,How dare you try to do away with my position as CSD.I for one am extremely pro-active ,work hard on the aircraft and do all with-in my power to motivate the crew to give excellent service therefore bringing back the passengers who pay our,YOUR wages.

I sincerely hope you are joking re the £68,000p/a!!! so we can all laugh together as one big happy BA family!!.Otherwise I am sure people are laughing at you :O .

If that is how much I earned last year is it any wonder I don't need to be a pilot;) .Maybe you should hang up those headsets stop listienng out on 121.9 all day and join crew(cabin).

By the time you reach CSD in 10-15 years we will be earning in excess of lets say....£120,000 p/a!!.

Anyway must go now,got to pick the wife up from her city job as her SLK is in the garage for a valet for the summer.Get home and open a bottle of Champers and have a swim in the heated pool with the four kids as they've all finished public school for three weeks ;) .

Off to the yacht for hols in South of France,don't know a good skipper do you?,I pay well;) .

Kindest regards,

Doors2Automatic.

PS Did your ex run off with a CSD!!?:D .

[BYMONEK]

Keeperboy

The problem facing BA at the moment is for the very reasons you state.This isn't the Company it was and if it wants to survive,change is required,regardless of what plans people may have made. Ruthless CEO's and accountants with their own interests at heart ( big bonuses if we make target) have turned Aviation on it's head and if Airlines are to survive these low cost threats,they need to change and adapt. British Airways is stuggling to break away from restrictive working practises that,as you say, have been around now for many years.The pilots,although still well paid in comparison to other UK Airlines,have made concessions to change and adapt.The Cabin Crew,however,along with other departments in the Company,appear to be entrenched in their determination to hold onto their golden contracts.
Although you shouldn't be putting your hands up, I do think that BASSA may be your own worst enemy. If people don't start opening their eyes and moving with the times,you'll all be hanging up those new uniforms for good and that is probably why The Pilots are getting pissed off.....it's their job too that goes down the pan.

[Doors2Automatic]

We're all working for one goal and thats to keep BA making profit to pay off the 3.5 billion we still owe so we can invest in some new aircraft to keep us up with the likes of Emirates and Virgins new equipment.(excellent airlines too).

Does it really matter what job we do, check-in, loader, lost and found, dispatch, pilot, operations or cabin crew. It makes me angry when certain people, (again only the minority) think they are above someone else in life because of the job they do, very shallow people.

It's time to work together and move forwards.

Doors2Automatic.

PS Can the few certain people please stop ruining layovers by telling cabin crew that they should be on the hourly rate, EG300 and how militant our Union is.

Off the aircraft = time to relax and play ;) .

[BYMONEK]

Quote

It's time to work together and move forwards.

Well said 'doors'! You have a great Airline there and one that all of you should be proud to work for.

[keeperboy]

BYMONEK I certainly hear what your saying as in airline surviving, jobs for all etc etc.

But the fact is, what we the staff see at the moment is BA proclaiming itself the 'worlds most profitable airline' in the Daily Mail with annual profits of £525 million. I know there are financially minded people who will say this doesn't really mean anything, we are still in grave danger etc etc but to the average joe (like me!) that multi million pound profit speaks volumes. I know we still have to reduce our debt etc but with profits like this the company is going to have a real hard time negotiating cuts with BASSA and perhaps rightly so.

We (the cabin crew) all know where the cuts can be made. On long-haul on a 747 we have a CSD and 4 (four ) Pursers. Leaving lots of high salary chiefs and few indians.

I recently just came over from short-haul and we had the infamous CAT turnarounds paying 37 odd-quid and minimum 2.5 hour break times etc.

Believe me I din't want to be sat in the CAT lounge for an hour and a half before doing my next flight, or at Compass Centre for 2 hours. But this is the fact.....I needed to get every single 'allowence' I could get. My basic salary, before tax, pension plan etc is just over £800 a month . After tax, NI, pension etc it would probably leave me with about £680 take home. Do you know how far that goes in London? So you can see how imperative it is for the cabin crew to do all they can to protect their allowence structure as this generally makes up 50-75% of monthly take home pay.

Many of the pilots I know are generally mis-guided about our pay deal and the hourly rate deal we were offered. Most don't rabbit on in terms of spite I know, many generally feel we will be better off as we would receive a similar deal to the pilots. They tell us how we would all get an increase in our basic pay and how they put all the costs of the CAT turnarounds into a pot and divide it etc etc. This is false . We were NOT offered an hourly rate deal anywhere near like what the pilot community accepted. We were offered the hourly rate, and not a penny more in our basic pay. That was the end of it. The problem for BA was is that they told us what the hourly rate would be (and rightly so). So of course we were able to come home, and work out what we would receive with the hourly rate versus what we received with the current system. i can't speak for eveyone, but in my case I was losing £300-£500 per month . No-one is going to sign up for that.

I do believe BASSA needs to find a way forward with the company though. This should be where both the company and the crew benefit. I really think this will happen soon. For the first time we now have some BASSA reps who are on the 'new contract' so will raise some issues for us on the new contract who will hopefully be at BA in another 20 years time. I hope this gets sorted as BA has a real 'cabin crew hating' feel about it and it makes it difficult for us to move together as a team.

Finally, just in regards to the unions. BASSA and BALPA aren't some autonomous organisations being difficult or making stupid rules. The unions only comprise it's members and their views, ie YOU AND ME.

[GS-Alpha]

The fact is that most people know only the rumours about what other workgroups are paid. Yes, at Heathrow, the cabin crew have many inefficient work practices. The same can be said of every workgroup - and I include us pilots in that. However, my personal opinion is that the pilots are one of the most efficient workforces in BA. Then again, I am a pilot, and I only know the rumours I hear of other groups' T's & C's.

Something I know for sure is that BA management love to see us all fighting like this, because they then find it much easier to attack us ALL.

For the most part, I do not begrudge the cabin crew their terms and conditions. I see incredible amounts of enthusiasm from a couple of the crew on almost every trip, and I feel proud to have these individuals working within our company! It is these people that seriously deserve their salaries. However, there are quite a few who feel the world owes them a living, and I do not have time for these people. BA would do better to weed these people out and replace them, than to attack salaries. You have to spend money to make money, but you must get good value for your money. BA does not get good value for money from such people, and neither do our customers. Similarly, if you encourage workgroups to envy/hate each other, and continually erode T's and C's, you will eventually erode good will and enthusiasm. This might not be something that an accountant can quantify, but it actually costs the company a lot of money on a regular basis.

In my opinion, the BIGGEST problem within BA is this:

Each manager has their own budget, and they will do all they can to save money within their own department, even though it is clear that their saving will result in an overall increase in cost for the company as a whole. Sometimes this cost would be clear even to an accountant if they looked properly, but many times it is simply someone's good will removed, and therefore unwillingness to go that extra mile when needed. It all boils down to management bonuses and SEP (Somebody else's problem). I believe this is the single biggest inefficiency that this company has, and I for one find it very frustrating that money is totally wasted in this manner.

[itsinthebag]

Unsurprisingly, the BA flight crew on here who have taken great pleasure in bashing the BA cabin crew have kept VERY quiet about their pay - anyone of you care to post how much an FO, SFO and Captain take home??????? Hmmmm.

[normal_nigel]

Last year I posted a link to a website that had the cabin crew payscales on it.

Someone called Golden Runways was so upset that the payscales were not a secret any more they threatened Danny that if he didn't remove the post they were going to report me to BA (assuming of course the website was mine which,of course, it wasn't).

However Danny told them where to go and also told me.

Now CSD's on Longhaul earn in the region of £30-£35K basic.

Allowances.

Assuming 20 days per month work - leave would give about 190 days work per annum.

Allowances would be on average (Longhaul) about £70/day. That equates to £13300 pa. These are taxed at a very low rate so they would gross up to at least £15000.

That means that a BA CSD grosses in real terms at least £45000-£50000 per year. In excess of over about 40% of flight crew.

Great work if you can get it.

No wonder its a big secret and guarded with such zealousness by the pathetic Golden Runways.

For info I include what they wrote at the time to Danny.


This post is very aggressive. I will also check with British Airways to see if normal_nigel aka ****** ****** has breached confidentiality rules by posting these internal documents. Do you believe the post and links to be appropriate? Thank you for your time in dealing with this matter. I will wait until 1630 before contacting BA.

This message has been sent to all moderators of this forum, or all administrators if there are no moderators.

Please respond to this post as applicable.

Touchy eh?

[BYMONEK]

Normal nigel

Quote

That means that a BA CSD grosses in real terms at least £45000-£50000 per year. In excess of over about 50% of flight crew.

Ignoring the fact that your sentence 'in excess of over about' doesn't make sense, are you saying that slightly more than 50% of the pilots in BA are on LESS than this amount. Assuming that slightly over 50% are Captains anyway,how do you figure that one out.Their starting pay is 60,000+ before you start adding any allowances and we're not even considering the SFO's who,on long haul,can still take home more than some short haul Captains.

Come on Nige.I've read your posts before and you can do better than that!

[normal_nigel]

ooh well done for finding a typo error.

Actually I have changed it to 40% as I believe most of the FO's earn around £50K or less.

OK lets make it 30%.

In fact lets drop the comparison all together as pilots should be rewarded considerably more than cabin crew to reflect the required training and responsibility.

Doesn't change the fact CSD's are getting £50k a year at least.

Good attempt at a topic diversion though. Impressed.

[Doors2Automatic]

Normal Nigel old boy please do not tell me how much I earn....surprise,surprise I know from my pay slip!!.

Hate to disapoint you but mine(I'm full time W/W) no where near what you are stating.

I'm happy with what I do get and if you're not happy with what I get what do you suggest I do?,walk in to the office and say 'Normal Nigel says I earn to much so please take enough back to get me under the pay of a new F/O, and when you're at it I don't want a final pension'!!?.

I don't make up the pay scales so don't ask me to feel guilty.

I wake up every day and enjoy the thought of coming to work because I enjoy the job and 99.9% of the people I come into contact with,there's always the odd bitter one

;) .

If you think we earn good money come and join us,however you may be disappointed.

Senior Captains on the -400 are on £***,*** P/A but I don't do public figures.Are they worth it?,yes because they have the skill and training to to save my life.I don't give a damn how much you guys earn that's personal and nothing to do with me.It is something agreed between BA and your union BALPA as our pay is with BASSA and 89 and BA.

Maybe we the CSD's should take the flight crew out and pay for all your meals and drinks to bring our money down to £10,000 and keep all you guys happy!!.

What would you like us to do Normal?.

Doors2Automatic

[YYC F/A]

PLEASE!

Enough!

Instead of point scoring and one-upmanship, can we not debate things without the venom?

For those of us whom all work at BA, we're in it together. We all work for the same side. Sometimes I wonder how we can ever get a plane safely in the air; if one were to look at the ascerbicity of some of the posts on here between Flight Crew and Cabin Crew one would be forgiven for thinking that we all hate one another.

I just came back from a fantastic trip to Riga. Allowances sucked, I spent almost as much as I made. Considering that my salary without allowances is about the same rate as the national minimum wage, I *do* rely on my allowances to make ends meet. Some trips are better than others. But on this trip to Riga, we just had a great time, and the ENTIRE crew went out together, flight deck and cabin crew. There was no bickering, no fighting... and the rapport on the flight was fab.

Through our respective unions, we all want a good deal which safeguards both our own personal financial situation, as well as being something sustainable for the airline, irresepective of which side of the cockpit door we work.

There'll always be the odd exception to the rule, but almost every colleague I've worked with 'down the back' has an awareness of the importance of making the "10p in the pound", how this translates into a healthy airline, and how this translates into a secure future for all of us.

There is a difference in 'old contract' vs 'new'. Rather than harping on about water under the bridge, let's focus on the future. We're seeing more and more ppl join the airline (on the new contract). We're headed in the right direction.

Let's stop taking a bash at each others T&C and trying to score cheap points, and maybe have a think about other ways we can move forward together to make BA a great airline, and a great place to work.

As an addendum, hopefully to clarify some of the misperceptions being floated out there:

Salary for New Entrant Cabin Crew (this is advertised publicly on britishairwaysjobs.com so I feel it\'s ok to put it on here)

£9,665 per annum.

Allowances are listed as circa £500 a month. I have to say that this is a bit on the low side as some months I\'ve made quite a bit more than that, but then I\'ve also had months of all "there and backs" and made EVEN LESS than the "circa 500" figure.

Our colleagues at LGW WW often only take home "circa 500" a month in allowances...

As I said before, we need to focus on the future rather than on old contracts that will continue to slowly fizzle out. On the new contract which is what everyone starting now is on, I don\'t think we\'re overpaid (not when pitted against the cost of living in SE England/London), nor do I think we\'re paid significantly more than our competition - we just enjoy slightly better work rules and conditions. And this is exactly what I\'d hope for when working for the UK\'s number one carrier.

As a pilot explained to me recently with regards to pilot recruitment at BA; we\'re like the top feeder in the food chain. Being the #1 means we offer a slightly better deal, and most of our guys these days come from other carriers such as the Charters or Regionals....

Is it such a crime that here in Cabin Services we have a similar situation to the Flight Crew?

[BYMONEK]

Normal nigel

On the contrary.I was merely stating that your argument holds no water. Actually, the more I read your posts I ask myself the question whether you're a Pilot yourself and not just some wind up merchant! My 6 year old can argue a point better than that and without the strop at the end!

By the way, in case you're wondering, i'm NOT Cabin Crew and I DON'T work for B.A. I am a Pilot who has been in Aviation now for almost 20 years and in that time i've never known any other UK Airline that seems to have the bickering and fueds between Flight Crew and Cabin Crew that this Airline does.

I hope you try and get it sorted out between you guys otherwise like a cancer, it will start eating away at the very core of the Company and CRM days will become paper exercises. As for the teamwork that might be required in the event of an emergency... let's not even go there.

Good luck to you all,on both sides of the door and enjoy your OOF day....or whatever the latest thing is this year.

Now, back to the thread!

Regards

BYMONEK:cool:

[SitgesPerson]

Anyone reading this forum could be forgiven for thinking that there is a constant battle going on between flight crew and cabin crew at BA!!! I know there are some bad apples in the flight crew barrel just as there is in the cabin crew barrel. Most of us are NOT pilotphobic, Im not, 2 of my best friends are pilots ;)

I have to agree with Doors2, unless this person is married to or has access to a CSDs pay details how on earth does he know what CSDs earn?? I have to say though 50 grand is news to me!! Hell, if it was true Pursers would be killing each other to get the job. Doors2, if you are on that much cocker, how about you leave your wife and kids and we set up home together ;)

You have to laugh at these people Doors, they are so ill informed, I feel sorry for them cocker. Still, as long as they do the job they are paid to do, which is fly planes and not try to restructure our pay, I am happy.

[ozzy05]

:confused: I must confess that it is good to find out on a public forum how much much I am "supposed" to earn. I just hope my wife does not cotton on, as she thinks I earn a lot less that has been mentioned. ( so did I actually)

As for value for money.....within the last 3 months of flying I have had to deal with one of my crew who had been given a terrible beating in a gay bar in PHL. Very upsetting for all concerned.

Then down in SYD am contacted at 0300 in my room by a hysterical cabin crew member whose boyfriend was threatening to kill himself over the phone whilst she listened.

Are CSDs at BA worth the money? On the whole yes I think we are.

For those flight crew eavesdroppers on the forum.....notice it was the CSD who those individuals contacted, and not the captain.

I wonder why......................................................... ...............??

[keeperboy]

Gee, after eavesdropping on the QF/LHR base thread on here (nasty!!!), the flying community at BA sounds like a big, bright bouncy castle on a summers day in Alice In Wonderland!

I mean honestly, are things really that bad between the Flight Crew and Cabin Crew? I don't think so. Nearly all my trips I go on the flight and cabin crew get together. The issue of pay and conditions sometimes comes up but is debated in a very 'adult' way before everyone gets back to the task of socialising.

It is just so easy on chat forums like this to release all your venom while you can hide behind the guise of a 'username'. BYMONK (who indeed has admitted he doesn't actually work for BA anyway) debating with 'normalnigel' who have never met each other and don't know the other from Adam isn't quite the same as 'Joe' chatting with 'Bill' about the same over a beer in Singapore.

Yeh, I have flown with a few w**ker pilots. Mind you there are w**ker CSD/Pursers and Maincrew out there as well.

[Anti-ice]

So then 'normal' :rolleyes: nigel, perhaps now you'd like to print on here what your Basic ,Allowances and Take-home are - or are you that much of a coward you can only print here totally inaccurate information about your colleagues ?

Or are you so affected and ostentatious that 'we really need not know about' ?

Some of these posts are farcical...........

[ElNino]

The second in command may well have to wrestle with the controls and safely land the plane from a 31,000ft terror dive saving all on board after the Captain collapses but let's be honest.....it doesn't exactly happen often,does it?

Bymonek:
If thats all you think the FO is there for, you're knowledge of flying is somewhat limited. A bit surprising as your profile claims you have an ATPL.
The bottom line is that the primary objective of every flight is to get from A to B as safely as possible. Whether Joe Bloggs in 10C gets the drink he wants, when he wants is a very distant second to this objective. Seeing as the FO plays a far greater role in achievement of this objective, and given that the non-functionability of the FO is far more prejudicial to flight safety than a non-functioning CSD, there can be no question of whom should attract the greater salary. Whether the FO has 200 hours or 5000 does not change this fact.
This is leaving aside all the other rather obvious arguments to do with the constant checking, the much higher accountability, the length and expense of the training etc etc.

Good luck to all CC who manage to make more than pilots, but the fact is that it is a serious flaw in the system that allows this to happen.

[BYMONEK]

ElNino

Hopefully I do Know what an F/O does as I wouldn't being doing the job I do.I hear what you say but I think we'll just have to agree to differ on this as it appears to be going round in circles.My only parting shot in this debate would be to ask this very simple question;

If,as you say,people with the most accountability and responsibility should always get paid the most,shouldn't that mean our prime minister should earn more than any other ?

Regards

BYMONEK

p.s The cabin Crew are also there primarily for safety ie getting you from a-b.......not just to serve Bloggs in 10c!:ok:

[normal_nigel]

New crew are underpsid because BA has to somehow finance the £50K salaries.

Lets not forget that the tax is lower so hitting headline rate of £50K in the real world is not unrealistic.

I don't actually begrudge it. As I said nice work if you can get it.

Oh and I'm on £80K+. Its not a secret.

NN

[ozzy05]

:8 Actually Nigel, new entrant cabin crew are on a different contract because back in '97 BA introduced a new starter rate.
Our trade union argued against it, and consequently we went on strike.

In this day and age this mythical salary of 50k is not unusual, and living in the South East as you are probably aware is very expensive.
I personally could not give a toss what an FO earns, and I am amazed that anyone is interested in what I earn as a CSD.

I am sure that you are good at your job, and I hope that I am equally as good at mine.

IMPO this is not the place to be discussing the salary structure within BAs flying staff. So why don't we park it and move on?

[normal_nigel]

OK fair comment although I suspect WW may have some issues with certain group's pay, and I dont necessarily mean cabin crew.

[rocketsuit]

I am old contract crew, on longhaul. At the minute, I am sitting on me arse in the far east, at a fabulous hotel, by the pool in the baking sunshine and i'm lighting me ciggies with ten pound notes:ok: why are our wages causing such a debate? it's no ones business except our own in my opinion

[behind_the_second_midland]

Ah, a Scouser with a job.

A rare breed indeed!

[rocketsuit]

oi behind the second, watch your wallet and your wifes handbag:=

[behind_the_second_midland]

Calm down calm down

[3Greens]

Whilst i do enjoy discusssing concerns with all those concerned with aviation i can't help but feel PPRuNE was much better value a few years ago. All too often now discussions evolve into abuse, CC v FC, BA bashing, or some idiot asks a question to which the answers can be found by doing a simple google search.

Remember that this was a pilots website originally.

[rocketsuit]

:p :p :p @ behind:O

[Phibes]

I am confused, if BA cabin crew are pain nearly double that of the oppostion why consider striking ? It appears from the posts that CC havwe a two-tier pay structure, with the 'oldies' much better off the the 'newbies' - seems a bit odd.

[sixmilehighclub]

Odd but fair.

BA have been operating for so long now that crew on the old contract were paid better as it was an exclusiv job once upon a time, they are used to their salary have established a lifestyle to match and it wouldnt be right to cut their pay just because BA are streamlining their costs. New crew are aware what they are earrning before they sign up so they accept the pay with the new contract.

The basic salary is in line with other airlines and it depends on how hard the person works as to how much they eventually take home in additional pay. It is a very fair system and as a rule the total paid to 100 new contract crew is probably equal to 100 crew on another airline.

[monkeyhead]

sixmilehigh club you ain't talking reality.

I work for bmi, my bf BA, as is our lodger (both on the 'new contract'). We are both on short-haul.

I take home on average £1200.00 per month.
He takes home on average about £1600 a month but with overtime can take home £2000+. our lodger likewise.

While he enjoys his 10 days off per month (plus his 'non-op' days) I get 8.

When I am doing my Palma/Brussels double he is probably on his mandatory 2.5 hour 'break' at Compass or the CAT lounge. In the last year he has been rostered FOUR doubles....in a YEAR. I do four doubles a week!

And after I do that 12 hour double Palma/Brussels, I get 12 hours off before going into to do an equally delightful duty. God forbid my bf doing a 12.5 hour day, but if he has to he is entitled to 18 hours rest.

So PLEASE sixmilehighclub. Don't take us for idiots. What you are saying is totally untrue.

And to the rest of you PLEASE don't take this as a slating to BA crew or your conditions. You guys and gals are so lucky, I wish we had the same! We all wish we had BASSA at bmi!!

[ABird747]

Take 'em, be my guest!

[OzzieO]

And whys that ABIRD747 care to elaborate?