United Under a Single Union?

[Woomera]

Well, you asked for it.

Who would join a SINGLE PILOT UNION representing ALL professional Australian Aviators, from all levels (GA, Airlines, Corporate etc) and be run by fully paid and full-time union representatives - SPECIALISTS in negotiation, industrial matters etc etc (not necessarily pilots) - in order to assert, protect and establish pilot pay and conditions in Australia?

[splatgothebugs]

Agreed "POWER IN NUMBERS" also if it was trans tasman would be great.

splat :ok:

[TAC On]

I joined such an organisation (AFAP) in 1974, and am a member to this day.

Unfortunately the Quaint ones decided it was all a bit humiliating having to deal with the hoy poloy, upped their stumps and took their bat. That was the start of the decline.

Then there was 89 when a couple of hundred decided they could do better on their own. Not one of them is currently employed by those to whom they prostituted themselves.

The rest is history.

Yes a united representation would be good, but I feel that like all utopian ideals it is unlikely to occur. Sadly the pilot community is too fragmented and filled with too many wannabes and self interested morons to sucessfully unite.

TO

[Feather #3]

Just to put the record straight in TacOn 's post.......the Overseas Branch were effectively paying a CONSIDERABLE [yes, that IS shouting] more than their fair share of the AFAP budget at the time and asked for "representative taxtion"; less fees in proportion or greater vote. The nail in the coffin prior to departure was the then President telling us that we had to go out in support of the Cabin Crew -SP drama. That ensured a virtual unanimous vote for departure.

G'day ;)

[Cost Index]

Sounds good.

How many separate unions in OZ aviation at the moment? Who'd be the right men to take up the reigns of such an organisation? Would airline pilots really be so interested in looking after their GA brethren? How would one become the dominant union if others exist at present? As alluded to before, why would 2300 odd QF members want to change their membership? Would the union that QF members are a part of consider expanding their umbrella to encompass all pilots? Would the separate unions maybe consider merging and taking on different sectors of aviation but under one umbrella? No honest idea to the answers, but maybe something that could be discussed.

I'm sure everyone agrees that a united front against unfair management tactics would be beneficial, question is how. What a great thread to put our collectrive heads together to come up with some ideas for those in the know to persue. It would also help if there wasn't such a high pilot to job ratio, but that's another story (John Anderson, feel like doing something!)....

Cheers

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Whilst I agree that there are already 'established' representation, they carry with them alot of history and water that is now under the bridge.

Time for a NEW START.

Whilst there is residual bitter feelings over previous events, which is understandable, there are many who fly today who were not involved, who suffer from the results of ' that ' conflict.

Cost Index asks why the 2300 QF pilots should join.

Their T & C's are under threat as well. Plenty of 'pilot labour' around to take up their slack, if they went so far as to get locked out, for example.

It's about time, the past was considered the past, and all aviators should be aligned together to protect each other's livelihoods, not threaten them.

Something to be remembered. Pilots and employers are co-dependenct. No pilots - no operation. No operation - no pilots.

This is not about shafting the company. It's about us protecting ourselves from the shafting that's been on the cards, and is just around the corner.

[HIALS]

Similar to Tac On - I joined one - the AFAP in 1984. And am still a member today. For the last 15 years I have lived and worked abroad and yet I still pay my dues and remain a member of the AFAP.

My point is - I'm not ultra-pro AFAP. I just believe in comprehensive, representative unionism.

The AFAP was with me in GA. The AFAP was with me in the airlines. The AFAP is with me here and now.

I would leave the AFAP tomorrow (of course for something better...) if a comprehensive, all-embracing pilot union was established in Australia. I have my views on the 89 dispute and yet I believe the time has come to see beyond hurt feelings and perceptions of old betrayals. We need to bond back together. We're just killing ourselves this way.

I want a union that ALL pilots - GA and airline pilots, Kiwis and Aussies, Stay-outers and Go-Backers from 89 - can be equal members of.

[bonvol]

Whilst one union would be the best for the profession we have been there done that. To reweld the rod is going to take some time and there are significant obstacles to be overcome. Someone is going to have to give up their patch of dirt.

Even if we could the get past the hurdles our esteemed PM will no doubt have the industrial relations environment heavily weighted towards the companies after July.

In QF we have gone down the Neville Chamberlain appeasement path in order to keep the peace. Now we have the rear view mirror it is clear this approach has been to our untold detriment.

One would think, after Jetconnect, Jetstar, Jetstar Asia and offset after offset that the penny would drop with AIPA but it seems they don't even possess the penny to start with.

Now we face some unpalatable options. Kick up a stink and upset GD to the extent he declares "war" and does us over bigtime or continue bending over hoping he will only do us over just short of breaking our back. AIPA are heading full steam ahead with the latter option. The troops don't even have the stomach for a lousy stop work meeting so if push came to shove most of them would figure just having a job is good enough I suppose. The vote for the EBA will give some good guidance here.

Also, nothing to stop, as was mentioned in another thread, the A380 going to XYZ ULH or maybe even the Jetstar ULH company or similar if we don't acquiesce to the company demands. I'm sure the company figures it's holding all the aces and from where I stand they do.

To add insult to injury, through AIPA, we were the ones handing them over bit by bit till they got all four!

[Zapatas Blood]

People have mentioned on this and previous threads a need to represent the “interests” of pilots in Oz.

My question to the neo – communists on pprune is what exactly are the interests of the pilots you are so keen to protect.

Is it job growth or wage protection because history has shown that they usually do not co–exist in a professional work force.

[Capt Claret]

It won't happen in my life time. And PPRuNe is living proof!

Just post a contrary view and then wait to be called all sorts of names and for the argument to move from an objective argument on the subject to a subjective argument against the individual.

Sad really, because PPRuNe has offered, over the years, much sage advice. Not lately though. :ugh:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I think it will happen...airline management will ensure it.

I won't need to be every pilot in Dunnunder...just a large majority....and then any pilot wishing to be employed will need to join.

A sliding scale of membership dues ranging from $5/yr for unemployed newbies just starting out to an equitable range of percentages from a GA C210 pilot through to an airline captain.

Perhaps all it will take is all the current unions, AFAP and the various pilot groups reps getting together and forming an alliance...pooling resources so to speak...once it gets rolling you might find large numbers of QF pilots joining, relegating AIPA to the sidelines...perhaps someone like the IFALPA could provide the forum and expertise to see it accomplished...they'd probably welcome it.

I feel sure that among all the lessons management learned in 89 which they have used against us since they also learned one very important lesson...don't let it happen again....the fact that none of the airlines involved in the dispute still exists surely exercises their minds?

It's not even about pay imho...it's a raft of other issues. To get caught up in winning pay rises for all and sundry would gaurantee zero public support.

It should be about ensuring that young pilots getting started are actually paid the current award in all its forms....and that any employer who tries to circumvent that are denied a pilot workforce for as long as their greed/stupidity continues.

That pilots dragging themselves up the greasy pole are not forced to pay for every endorsement along the way.

That pilots have good professional indemnity insurance, Life Insurance and Loss of Licence.

That there is a recognised professional body that will stand for what's safe and right when it comes to FTLs and fatigue issues, rather than dickheads who were so afraid of the big bad world they never left University.

Ditto protection for pilots who refuse to fly unserviceable/overloaded etc.

That security issues are addressed in a sensible way without insulting and degrading our profession.

Ditto licencing issues.

If we were all united then no one airline would be held at some (beancounter) imagined unfair disadvantage.

Airline beancounters are madly trying to compete on price alone...and making employees pay directly for their bonuses and whatever profits the airline makes. They must be made to accept the true costs of the operation of an airline...if that means an extra 20 bucks on the price of every ticket then so be it...everything else in life costs more as time goes by...why are airline tickets different to the price of any other consumer item?

The price of all this may, indeed almost certainly will be, the (forcefull) exclusion (blackbanning) from the industry of pilots who do not want to join or who try and short circuit/backstab/undecut or whatever other adjective comes to mind...tough titty, we don't want them in the industry anyway.

I'd join such a union in a heart beat....that does NOT mean the next week I'd go on strike for a 29% ambit payrise for myself or a GA C210 pilot...but I'd support true industrial reform that puts meaning back in 'professional' and practicle, realistic safety ahead of management bonuses.

If we stay away from pay issues, for the time being, even the Liberal Govt would be hard pressed making us look bad.

Chuck.

[elektra]

Like a few others who have posted above, joined AFAP years ago and am still a proud member. For much of my career my prospects were protected by a Scope Clause, the absence of which (or reluctance to enforce it) is the source of much of the QF woes, now, and those ahead.

A single union will not, by itself, stop the rot of divide and conquer that GD is so good at, only strong, united union members and a decent, respected Scope Clause could have ever done that...and that was a little grubby and industrial for the QF people years ago to ensure they had nailed down. Now I suspect it is way too late for AIPA, truly, truly an organization long past its "USE BY" date. A rebuilt QF Pilot Council (or MEC as in the US ALPA system) could see all the legitimate QF interests cared for by QF people and union staffers while at the same time, being part of the SINGLE PILOT UNION which is way overdue.

The AIPA people have done a good job at selling the case for a single, united union. They have shown that a weak, divided pilot body, threats, sledging and vilification help only the dark forces within management, and hurts us all. And thats only WITHIN the QF group!

AIPA leaders must now fall on their swords for the greater good while they still have the strength. I would be sad to see the name and the proud logo of the AFAP go....but if that too is part of the ultimate cost of rebuilding the Australian /NZ pilot fraternity then so be it. UNITY is priceless.

[TAC On]

Feather #3.

What you say is some of the story, it has two parts.
The part you quote is The gospel acording to Graham the Angry Ant.

That position completely ignores the principles of mutual assistance on which unions thrive.

Sure they were paying more. Given that we all paid a percentage, of course they would, they were earning more.

Its the same with taxation. The more you earn the more you pay. Or another way of putting it you pay according to your ability to do so. It's all about the mutual good.

Fortunately the domestic airline guys, by and large, remembered from whence they came, and hung with, (rather than hung out to dry), the GA guys. Never heard any self centred carping from them that they were paying more and therefore should get more. (and by the way if we don't we'll take our bat and p1ss off).

The other part of the story was of course that which concerned Geoff the Charismatic.

He, of course, was on a mission from his then (or was it future father in law). He was tasked to deliver you all to the gelding yard. Can't fault him on his ability to deliver. You have been a puppet team ever since.

So with you all safetly delivered back to the company, Geoff and Graham were able to ride off into the sunset basking in the favours meted out by a very grateful company.

Sorry to tell you fellah's. Once you've been gelded, its unlikely that the equipment will grow back

However thats all 30 years ago, and really is history. Perhaps we can learn from it.

Regards

TO

[jakethemuss]

Gelded???

You mean we should have great big balls like the AFAP had when they agreed to the lowest paid 737 jobs in Australia and more recently assisted the national jet pilots to undercut the already lowest paid B717 pilots in the western world.

Wake up. The race began with the AFAP and continues to this day.

Unite the Qantas pilots under one umbrella and then see what can grow from there. As I said before 2300 members vs 400 is quite a different position to be coming from.

[Casper]

Then there was 89 when a couple of hundred decided they could do better on their own. Not one of them is currently employed by those to whom they prostituted themselves.
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Could this happen in the AIPA? You bet it could!

[TAC On]

Jake

You miss the point.

We once had a single united and effective union.
Then two groups, the first being the overseas branch, and then much later the "other group", decided they were better off on their own.

History shows what we had, and equally what we now have. Lets learn from that.

I don't know if the AFAP is the answer, but I am convinced that AIPA has adequately displayed that they clearly are not the solution. I reiterate, those guys were gelded years ago and the gear won't grow back.

AIPA is not the way the truth or the light.

A single united union with courage can address the woes of which you speak. In the fragmented and self interested industry we now have, an industrial body must make do with the best that can be achieved under the circumstances. The circumstances that prevail in this country preclude any strenuous action. Only with unity will those circumstances change.

It will not be up to me or my ilk to determine the future, I'm just about done. I just sincerely hope that the up and coming, take heed of history and take a path that will avoid the pitfalls and the ills of the past. Sadly I think the group is far too disparate to form a cohesive single unit

But one can hope and dream.

TO

[matca]

Chimbu for President!

Well said Prez!!

[mjbow2]

Where do I sign up.

would Australian pilots welcome ALPA in this neck of the woods?

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

It's pretty obvious why pilots are held in such low regard by beancounters - they ask for it!!

To whit.......

An anti-J* topic gets 3805 hits/50 replies.

A "Hot Flighties" post gets 2621 hits/22 replies.

A poll to gauge interest in a solitary pilot labour organisation gets 1357 views/17 replies, 89 total votes!

Stick a fork in their @rse and turn 'em over............they're done.

[HIALS]

Oh dear. Having been away on a multi-day trip, I expected to come back and find some interesting opinions here. And an interesting poll too.

You can imagine my surprise to realise that so few people care.

Like another of the posters here - I am nearing the end of my time in this career and industry. And when I look at the results of this poll, I am at once saddened and relieved.

I am relieved because I no longer need to care about the depths that the occupation is heading towards. I'm out soon and I can save myself the anguish of fighting for the younger ones, because they don't care.

I am saddened because my cherished occupation has fallen - not from external forces but from internal apathy.

[Bill Smith]

There is the other side of the coin.
People have just got so tired of reading the school yard squabbling that goes on against one another on PPRUNE that they have just stopped reading and haven't even seen the poll.

[amos2]

...and TAc ON and HIALS have summed it up succinctly and accurately, unfortunately!

QED! :(

[bonvol]

Yep, can't disagree with any of that.

The 200 odd pilots who turned up to the recent SGM had a golden opportunity to send a message to management that they were not happy chappies by supporting GD's motion. In typical fashion they blew it and you can bet two seconds after the meeting ended management would have been much encouraged that the boiling of the frogs is going as planned.

Hell, these frogs even provide their own pot and hot water!