Ryanair worry the heck out of me and many other professional pilots

[ShortfinalFred]

Ryanair worry the heck out of me and many other professional pilots.

If it were not enough that they fly a fleet of aircraft on a Flight Time Limitation Scheme that has no basis in objective science - the Irish one that allows strings of multiple earlies - and we are forced to share the skies with guys and girls who are driven by that imperative AS WELL AS the "turn up to work or your on a disciplinary" management style, the company's cost cuts are seeping out across the industry to enormous disbenefit all round.

I very much doubt that Ryanair use ANY of the modern methods of continuous safety management - a FDR trace review for excessive out-of-parameter operation of every flight, moderated by peers through the pilot union; an open and honest no-blame reporting culture; a safety incident data base that tracks every incident company-wide and provides open and full feedback to all crews as well as "closing-out" the process loops found to have been at fault, for example.

There is, of course, a cost implication to these, and though I would be genuinely delighted to hear otherwise, I very much doubt that these are in place. Likewise, I doubt that there is any meaningful training standardisation going on to check and verify training outputs against an objective standard.

This is NOT to denigrate in ANY way the pilots of Ryanair, but to question the PROCESSES and motives behind the probable lack thereof.

But there is much worse than that. The culture of getting pilots to pay for their own sims and conversion courses etc etc has led to a cost advantage for them that no carrier who does not do this can beat.

So what, one may say?

So everyone else who does not do this is reducing sim times and courses to the bare bones in an effort to claw back that 'advantage' that Ryanair have 'created' for themselves. Our sims have been cut from 4 to 3 hours on some fleets. Conversion course are at rock bottom in terms of sectors allocated and sims programmed. A certain "bare level of acceptability" may be being maintained, but it is just that, a bare level of competence.

There was a view within commercial aviation that quality was everything in creating a safe operation. You had to strive to create it on initial conversion, strive to keep it on recurrent training, AND strive to support it by the quality of, and commitment to, the processes you put in place to monitor and adjust the trained outputs that you were getting on the line.

That Ryanairs' anti-union, anti-pilot ethos attacks the core competencies of a safe operation is, to me I believe something that one can allege as being beyond doubt, that their stance on training is affecting the whole European industry to its great disbenefit in terms of quality and safety is something one can allege with just as much conviction also.

[Justbelowcap]

Totally and completely agree. The Irish regulators are a disgrace, more Third World than Western European. Lets hope the CAA will stand firm and one day insist that Ryanair operate to the same standards as the UK operators or prevent them from using UK airspace. Fat chance.

Everybody in the industry knows what is going on but the regulators just keep turning a blind eye. When the fateful day comes the hundreds of posts on this and many other websites will haunt those who had the power to keep aviation safe. I'm ashamed to be Irish when I think of Ryanair.

[ark]

all i have to say is what a load of poo. i'd much prefer to work a steady string of earlie's on a stable roster then be subject to c.a.a ftl. i would say that 90% of the company would agree.

proof has been in the pudding so far that Ryanair operate to very good, safe standard's.

sleep tight now,or you ll probably stay awake all night worrying about getting out of bed in the morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:O :p

[Hudson Bay]

ark your an Ostrich.

How can anyone have their mind on the job when O'leary is using underhanded tactics? Its time you pilots took action now before it's too late. Judging by some of your other posts on other threads ark, you advertise your ignorance in a big way.

[ad astra]

What are the differences between the CAA and Irish rules that would effect the safety of Ryanair flights? I'm sure that many of us non-professionals would be interested to know.

[Drap-air]

perhaps they think we fly overweight - you see they fly for the likes of BA.

Guys, when the aircraft is full of passengers, the a/c is not overweight.

There... end of thread.

[flystudent]

As a wannabe that reads about RyanAir here there and everywhere my simple thoughts on it remind me of the processess that were in place at a famous space organisation who were doing so well until a few accidents led to accident investigations which highlighted major failings in the company 'methods' & motives.

Having studied/researched that to a fair bit of detail and then reading about RyanAir I see similarity that is a bit spooky. I can only hope that RyanAir does not become the next "perfect example of poor HP/CRM etc" like trainers use Kegworth for.

Another thought is the amount of Pan/mayday's I have read that they issue due to fuel minimums (dont know how true that is) but if it is, I can only imagine this increases ATC workload and what if there was another A/C that had a real emergency and couldnt get processed becasue someone didnt take enough fuel becasue they wanted to keep their job !!

Or is it not really that bad ??

FS:ugh:

[Drap-air]

the tone of the messages you read are from bitter pilots who hate low cost strategies and know little about what they preach.

ryanair and easyJet are the best in the business, highest passengers per mile, best running times and excellent safety standards. thats why people hate them!

Can't beat the best..

[chikenscanfly]

yeah, but the best at what cost

atleast at Ezy the pilots have some say to put on the brakes a bit or redirect things if they seem to be going a bit in the dangerous direction...

management in most cases isn't aware of what limitations really lie, or what alternatives are perhaps available...

MOL says he hates pilots... he claims he isnt an aerosexual... so why should he know anything about contingency fuel? all he cares about is the pilots taking minimum fuel so not to carry too much and end up burning 'too much'...

that used to be the case, now thankfully no more thanks to a little intervention by Boeing...

A little backgroud info...

FDR is now installed fleet wise, but feedback to pilots is done by the company directly, and there is a general overhanging sense of fear of the box...

training is of a high standard... thanks to the TRI and TRE's hard work...

[Valve Kilmer]

all he cares about is the pilots taking minimum fuel so not to carry too much and end up burning 'too much'... - seems to be normal for many operators. Lots of heavy iron skippers, some of them presumably "Speedbirdies", are these days informing joe public, that landing with minimum fuel is absolutely normal, and not compromising safety at all. So why pick on the LCCs on this matter? :hmm:

VK

[flystudent]

I assume that evertyime someone declares a fuel emergency it is "recorded" somewhere. It would be interesting if these stats could be analyzed to see what %'ge of these are from which ever airlines. Does anyone know if/how this could be researched ? These could then perhaps be compared against the number of flights operated per week in order to get a clear picture (thinking being that obviously a larger carrier will have more than a small outfit just due to frequency of service). Just an idea....

FS

[Hansol]

Perhaps FR needs the type of safety culture that allows a 747 to fly over the pond on three engines, you may not like it but they do have one of the best safety and on time records in the business.

[leander]

Shock news - it has just been revealed that aircraft have been flying over the Atlantic on just two engines for many years - and they had the audacity to do this without permission from either The Times or Flight International. :p

[PPRuNe Radar]

The UK CAA will hold stats on every aircraft landing in the UK which declares an emergency due to low fuel. It is subject to a Mandatory Occurrence Report which is compulsory for ATC to complete, even if the crew, which may be foreign and not fully aware of the scheme, don't.

Landing with minimum (legal) fuel is a different kettle of fish.

[mrjet]

What a load of crap. I don’t ever feel MOL breathing down my neck. The OFDM is one of the best things that have happened since GPWS.

How can it be an unsafe company culture to identify problems like pilots exceeding flap speeds, is it not a good company policy to identify problem areas and resolve them by changes in training procedures? It’s not used to punish pilots. Management won’t even know who the pilot exceeding a parameter is; it’s only intended and used to identify certain trends that need to be rectified.

We have an excellent and very stable roster pattern. I don’t think it’s a problem to do 5 earlies in a row. We have no overnights; I get to sleep in my own bed every night. I think it’s a greater safety problem to have a late start, sleep in a hotel, get up after minimum rest and go to work. I get a stable sleeping pattern during my earlies and at least 12-18 hours at home in between duty periods.

I’m not management, just a pilot with a little bit of common sense.

[ifleeplanes]

There are many things wrong with the management philosophy in Ryanair BUT the pilots are well rested very current. Two landings/takeoffs a day each into airfields that are limiting BUT not dangerous, with many circling and NPA. How does that compare with 1 landing every month in the safety stakes?? I notice a recent case of a female BA F/O wanting to go part time after four years in the airline. She had amassed 1100 hours in 4 years! Our pilots are current and will do more than that in 18 months, so who will be in better currency?

You may justifiably critisise the management but the pilots are some of the best in Europe. We do not exceed limitations and are monitored by OFDM just like the rest the major carriers.

I fly 5 earlies followed by 3 full days off (so in effect nearly 4 days off) then 5 lates followed by 3 full days off. Yes I am tired at times but far less so than I was under the CAA pattern. I see my kids everyday, often taking them to school and managing to see their plays etc etc.

The things RYANAIR has going for it are the roster patterns 5*, new aircraft 5*, great pilots and crew 5*, good pay 4*. The managment intimidation is a huge problem but hopefully will be sorted soon with very positive signs coming from Dublin. When thats been sorted out the airline will be a great place to work.

You can slag off the management as much as you please but your way off line hitting the pilots!

[minuteman]

Here's a little gem of info: there is no IAA operational equivalent of UKCAA CAP371.

Here's why: the operator submits their suggested FTL scheme to the regulator, who appraises them, and then rubber stamps them into the operators Ops Manual as the defined legal FTL framework for that airline.

Amount of line pilot input? Nil.

Amount of times the IAA have refused changes in the recent past? Nil. (The famous "resetting the clock" in FR comes to mind. 1800hrs in 18 months.....?)

So when MOL decides he needs a bit more flexiblity out of the guys, who does he ask? the pilots....?

[Miles Hi]

The Irish regulators are a disgrace, more Third World than Western European.


I don't understand how a thread having a go about Ryanair turned into a pop at the IAA. All the aviation authorities operate under JAR rules - it's unfair, and untrue, and unwarranted to blame the IAA for any perceived problem you have with Ryanair.

[ifleeplanes]

FTLs, I still can only legaly do 900 hours a year, 100 in 28 days, max of 12 hour duty day before disgression. My rolling total is approx 840. The majority of my duty day is flight time, I do very very little riding around in taxis etc, maybe once a year! I havnt been into disgression in months.

Our FTL is fine. Your picking on the wrong things!

[ShortfinalFred]

Ifleeplanes - great, I am genuinely delighted to hear this. This could and should be a great profession where the natural enthusiasm of the workforce for what they are doing, if respected and nurtured, can and will create profitable, secure working environments ANDd competitive products for the travelling public.

The degree of divide-and-rule management tactics evident here on pprune, (see threads on BACX, BMI baby, Ryanair etc etc), is testament to outdated, American-sourced management concepts that have destroyed more shareholder value than they have, or ever will, create.

My concern remains the issue of both 'pay-per sim' and its effects on other carriers in reducing their own sim times to a bare minimum in an attemtp to compete, with a consequent and worrying reduction in standards across the board, and the evident highly anti-pilot/pilot union stance that certainly appears from a distance to be incompatible with a safety culture at Ryanair.

All informed replies read with great interest. The level of debate on pprune seems to drop within about three posts to a trading of barbs at best, or insults at worst, that have little relation to the issue at hand.

I emphasise that my thoughts here are NOT in ANY way an attack on LCC's. Anyone, in my opinion, who holds a professional pilot's license is worthy of great respect, both for the massive individual commitment and effort involved in acquiring it, and also for the position of stupendous public trust that they hold by exercising the privileges of that license in the performnance of their job every working day.

[ZQA297/30]

From the outside it would seem that there is a range of interpretation under JARs and that some administrations are more, ahem, "flexible" than others.
Ireland and Iceland are often mentioned, but there are probably others.
In this age where survival is based on tenths of a cent in RPKs, tilted playing fields are sooner or later going to result in serious recriminations.

[ifleeplanes]

I agree the divide and rule sentiment is disgraceful and fingers crossed it will end soon. I dont pay for my sims, and never have done. I do have to pay for my HOTAC when Im doing them :(

Our standards are high and the sim isnt just a rubberstamp. One day we may be able to convince management to up their standards of management.....:ok:

[stator vane]

i strongly suspect that if your company had gone bust and you were out of work, you too would be flying at ryan just like so many others. it is bloody difficult to get a job flying when one isn't flying. it is so much a matter of timing and catching the waves of hiring which a pilot really has little control over.

the flight deck is a safe as we make it. and when one grows up, one should have the ability to disregard whatever tactics happen in their office and set the atmosphere in your office-the flight deck.

and multiple earlies are actually more natural than starting with an early and ending on a late in the same week. i can set my alarm for a full week and quickly fall into a sleep pattern that is better than setting a different alarm time every day.

it sounds as if many of you think we should give up flying and work at pizza express rather than work for an airline that might bring your job under threat someday. (and guess what--your management will fill their pockets)

don't blame the pilots. you might be in the same boat sometime. but it won't really be my fault.

[Flap 5]

I can not understand why some of you think that the postings up till now have been blaming the pilots. No one has done so. It's a red herring and only serves to create bad feeling. Stick to the point.

[frank ice]

I had the 'Pleasure' of flying en route to a 'positioning sector' via 'Ciampino' recently, twice, and I read the book autobiog on Ryanair, for something to do, Scary or what ! M.O. is a 'control freak' and very ruthless in his business accumen, and his motives, there is a lot of backroom double dealing always going on there and from the horses mouths of 'aircrew' who were not too shall we say 'discreet' in their airing thoughts of the company whilst engaged in their own conversations in the cabin/galley, to someone who did not fully understand either terminoligy or flight regs, it would have been 'Most' un-nerving, I was fortunate to be sat with two 1st O's (swedish) returning from very tight 'sector duties' to Stansted, both of whom were quite happy to lay bare the shortcomings of the company. Its unfortunate that the 'cannon fodder' usage of pilots and crew drives such high pressure businesss decisions, a lot more care and attention to details may help?
Someday, somewhere, and with some unfortunate results, It'l all go 'pear' shaped, and the people who will have to pick up the pieces will have been 'cast adrift' by the high command and left to face the music. Others will I'm sure be scuttling away protecting their own interests and looking to place blame elswhere.

[Say Mach Number]

What a load of bull!

So the person who started the thread now is a spokesman for other professional pilots.

All his of post is assumption and supposition. He clearly doesnt work for Ryanair and does he have any foundation for his comments or is our new spokesman just guessing what Ryanair is like.

I work for the company and yes its not perfect but as far as the flying is concerned the pilots I train are pleasantly surprised by the high standards set by the training dept and the trainers. And yes there is an active safety culture within the company.

Dont forget we are a LoCo so we have got to be doing it better and safer than some because our so called reputation.

Yes FR need pilots but they are not that desperate and people fail and that goes for experienced types as well. Eg 12 LOT(Polish Airlines)pilots turned up for the sim but only 2 got past the FR sim ride. And they are not alone.

The places we fly and the flying we do sorts out those who can and cant. If you are weak this sort of flying will find you out.

As for FTLs then I suppose his thrust applies to Aer Lingus and everyother Irish airline. Dont hear to many slagging EI.

Ask the Buzz guys they were working CAP371 as part of FR and the ones I know far prefer the Irish way now.

Brand new airplanes, home every night, a roster that no pilot moans about-now theres a first, shed loads of cash and shares, and an impeccable safety record.

It has its moments like any airline but lets put things rightly in perspective.

PS Ive never had or been put under any pressure by management on any flight. Full stop

[Justbelowcap]

How many times have you gone tech away from home base?

You don't because you simply fly an unsafe aircraft back to where it can be fixed. Last month an aircraft departed XXX with a front door slide inop but with a full load of pax. That is illegal and totally irresponsible. (Want me to print the dest/Flt #?)

You seem to think that the ability to actually fly the aeroplane is what makes a pilot. Most airlines can take that bit for granted. What makes a good pilot is the decision making process. The first and most important decision is whether the aircraft is safe to fly. In Ryanair the answer is always yes, simply because you have very few crew of the quality to say no to the intimidation they will no doubt receive.

This really all stems back to the airlines safety culture. Ryanair seem to have no Union monitored confidential safety reporting system (this is an airline doesn't even have a complaints dept), it can't because it has no union involvement. The sim checks are a joke. How many real time LOFT's do you do during your recurrent check? How often do crews not go into discretion?

With a Professional license come responsibilty. That responsibilty is towards those people who put their lives in your hands. It is vital therefore that the flight crew are able to have the last say in any safety issue. In Ryanair this simply isn't the case, poorly trained crews are not equiped to be able to halt the operation. This is the situation that, if it spreads will kill people. That is why it disturbs the professional. Ryanair are running the gauntlet and by squeezing costs so much they are forcing others to do the same. The whole industry knows this to be the case but the Irish regulators seem powerless to act. If it makes money it must be good. One day it will all go horribly wrong and the cost of MOL making lots of money will be the lives of those who flew in an aircraft that should never have left the ground.

[Say Mach Number]

Went tech not so long ago and engineers were depatched from STN to fix it.

But dont go tech very often because the airplanes are so well maintained.

Remember every FR aircraft sits on the ground at every base from 2330 until the first departures about 6am so the engineers have ample time to fix snags.

FRs operation can only work if the planes are well maintained and dont go tech. They are well maintained and invariably they dont go tech.

Believe it or not at a meeting with MOL after 9/11 we all assumed we would be entering night flying business to get better utilisation of the a/c but MOl dismissed this idea for the maintenance reasons above. Think we were all shocked and relieved at his response!

Take it you have done a FR sim check to qualify your statement or is this an uneducated guess?

[FlyingIrishman]

The engineering at Ryanair really is first rate - whether at the bases or in STN, PIK, DUB or SNN. If the alleged departure with a slide really did take place which I find impossible to believe, why didn't you take the facts you claim to have to the IAA or CAA? I'm not expecting an answer...

Training is also of a very high standard. Just ask the many pilots that did not get past the sim check or even line training. The operation is more demanding than at mainstream airlines so it really does separate the men from the boys.

Any other "facts" regarding our (immaculate) safety records? Feel free to contact the IAA with evidence.

The airline is not perfect (with less sh*t coming from MOL and his merry men I dare say it would be) but the pay is good, rosters are great and so are promotion prospects. Something that can't be said about many outfits...

[sky9]

Do Ryanair restrict the amount of de-icing fluid that the handling agents can use to de-ice an aircraft?

[Ryanairpilot]

sky9: complete and utter drivel

[Joyce Tick]

MOL has so many Pprune-type pilots squirming - he just has to be doing something feckin' right!

[Few Cloudy]

Ah! I wondered where you had got to.

[Idunno]

As for FTLs then I suppose his thrust applies to Aer Lingus and everyother Irish airline. Dont hear to many slagging EI. That would be because EI work to an agreed set of working conditions, while FR work to the legal limits. Big difference.

[ifleeplanes]

So what your saying is that the agreed in house regulations are OK but the legal limits arnt? Yeah right :confused:

We dont dispatch with problems with the aircraft, I never ever have in many years with the company. Never heard of anyone dispatching with a slide U/S. We have a MEL just the same as everyone else, if itsays dont go WE DONT GO, simple as that!

As for restricting the amount deicing fluid, geeze we realy are dredging the bottom of the barrel now arn't we! Dont be so bloody stupid!


As for JUSTBELOW CAP

:The first and most important decision is whether the aircraft is safe to fly. In Ryanair the answer is always yes

No it isnt ! Your talking out your arse. We have well maintained new aircraft so the reliability is good. If the are U/S then they get fixed and we take another one.
With a Professional license come responsibilty
Yes and we are professional show me how Im not, give me the proof you believe you have. Laughable!!!

It is vital therefore that the flight crew are able to have the last say in any safety issue
We do and we exercise it

In Ryanair this simply isn't the case, poorly trained crews are not equiped to be able to halt the operation

What complete and utter drivel ! I hold a JAA license that is approved and ratified I meet the requirements to keep it current. I am in excellent CURRENT practice. I am well traned and well equiped. You are talking out of your arse YET AGAIN!
:yuk

We moan and groan because our terms are being eroded slowly but surely. Paying for my HOTAC and my own medical hardly presents a flight safety hazard! We NEVER comprimise on safety and we are never pushed into doing so. Safety levels are never eroded and never will be, management realise that is a step to far. Now get of your high horse!

[Sunfish]

[/b]well maintained new aircraft so the reliability is good[/b]

I respectfully suggest that does not automatically follow.

[ifleeplanes]

Reliability decreases with time. With the odd exception, even Boeing has 'Friday' aircraft

[Sunfish]

Ummmm, with the greatest of respect, this is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. There is a condition known as "infant mortality" that applies to all systems including aircraft systems and structures.

New planes, like new cars, often have defects resulting from build errors. Then of course every time you maintain an aircraft you have infant mortality all over again.

There is no reason a 50,000 hr aircraft can not be as reliable as a 3,000 hr aircraft provided it is properly maintained.

Case in point many years ago was the gyros in F27 and B727 aircraft, solution to increase gyro life was ...... don't change gyros. Damage to the bearings during installation (brinelling) was the major cause of failure.

To put it another way, I'd rather fly in a 30 year old aircraft maintained by a top team of LAME's than a brand new aircraft maintained by the second eleven.

:ok:

[sky9]

Re De-icing fluid

I only asked because about 4 years ago the de-icing supervisor of a UK handling agent told me that there was a contracted maximum amount of fluid. (he actually quoted the figure to me). I’m glad to see that this is not the case.

[ifleeplanes]

I will remember that next time I go and buy a car...forget the modern new BMW car Im going for a clapped out Morris Minor with 120,000 on the clock just so long as its been serviced.

The 50000 hour plane can have the same relability provided its been properly serviced.....case in point! Problems are less likely to occur with new systems. Why on earth would anyone buy new modern planes if it were not the case? They would look for the oldest ones they could find and then maintain them well.

And with the greatest repect our engineers are hardly second 11.

[Wide-Body]

Well I am amazed at this thread. When are some of you going to stop behaving like big girls. If FR, BA, or any one on the UK/Eire airlines were operating to unsafe procedures they would get hammered by the authorities. All airlines will use the law to maximise their profitability, and yes individual crews will make mistakes, live with it. That is the real world. This tittle tattle between companies is pathetic for so called professionals.

Good luck in the market to BA,FR,EZ, VS et all. There is enough pressure on us all without childish infighting.

Regards and Respect to all

Wide

[ifleeplanes]

Some sence at last! THANK YOU Widebody

[Hotel Charlie]

they would get hammered by the authorities
Get real! The authorities are spineless! :yuk:

[Charly]

Morning everyone,

with the LoCo carriers all over Europe buying new Boeings at record levels, what happenes, when all those aircrafts need their thorough D-Checks?

And next point: You have an airline that flies 50.000 sectors each year. If it has a safety level of 1 accident every 500.000 sectors, it´ll have one loss every 10 years (which is.. acceptable in a management point of view, i guess..).

An airline whith 500.000 sectors a year needs a much higher standard than that, it needs a safety level of 1 accident every 5.000.000 sectors to match the level of the above mentioned airline, otherwise, with the same level, it would have a total loss EVERY YEAR!

So, how do the Low Cost structures look like, if the carriers reach a "critical" mass?
It costs a lot of money to increase your safety standards by a factor of 10..

[Wide-Body]

Hotel Charlie

Thank you for your informed comment. I can not comment on the Norweigan authority I have not delt with them. In the dealings I have had with the UK authorities, they want airlines to fly. They will help airlines to operate within the LAW. As for spineless I do not know, but I have seen their teeth.

Like all professionals, they do not abuse their authority rather excercise it with care.

Again there will always be individual cases where this is not so. But as a real overal situation, this IS what goes on.

Regards

Wide

[BoeingMEL]

Sorry Charly but your question is so full of ifs and suppositions. The big question should be: why do you use speech marks for the word critical? bm

[brabazon]

D checks do they exist anymore? Also I think you'll find that easyJet will roll out their A319s before they need heavy maintenance checks and given they got them for a knock down price may make some money out of it. I am sure the same will go for Ryanair and their "bargain basement priced" 737-800s.

[Tallbloke]

The LoCo are very efficient businesses working to a different business plan than more established carriers. They will replace aircraft when it is most economic to do so. Is there a problem with that, that a business should use its assets in the most effective manner possible?

If a regulator has decreed that a pilot should fly no more than 900 hours/year, why should an operator not try to utilise all of those 900 hours? Either the operator is unreasonable, or the limit is unreasonable. I wonder which it is?

Slightly off topic, there seem to be 2 different points of view being expressed here. On the one side we have thise who are watching T&C being eroded by LoCos, and on the other side seems to be those who have known nothing different, for whom the FR or EZ way is the norm, not the new idea. I remember thinking everything my dad said was rubbish, until I got older.....

[Suggs]

Ryanair - The only company that i've heard calling up with the Clackers going off in the back ground.

Barbers Pole - What's that all about??

[Pilot Pete]

If there was a problem with the limits they would be reduced.

Do you really believe that? Have you read the thread about the harmonisation of Flight Time Limitations throughout Europe? A retrograde step that will make the UK FTLs less restrictive, but at the same time introduce some FTLs in countries like Italy that currently have none whatsoever. They have operated without any for some considerable time and they didn't change them. Does that mean there was no problem with them? Or perhaps just that the problem had none come to light yet?

Maybe you don't think that working to CAP371 is a problem, but many pilots do. Why? Just so they can 'improve' their terms and conditions? NO. Because they know how they feel when they are pushed to the limits of the document.....absolutely shattered and that is a flight safety issue.

PP

[Carpathia]

FTLs were devised many years ago before the phenomenon of LoCo's. They were intended to allow airlines to operate pilots to a limit greater than that deemed to be the ideal, in times of shortages, unexpected happenings etc. In other words to allow for short term flexibility. The limts were NOT intended to be the norm. However, they are treated as such by the FR's of this world, hence the problem.

And yep, the authority is question IS spineless. Remember its the IAA, not the CAA.

[Tallbloke]

I thought that T&C were generally hammered out between employers (who want as much as possible for their money) and unions (who want as much as possible for their members). Regulators define safe limits using the lowest common denominator principle (ie to cover all situations and persons). Duty time should be linked to duty and rostering IHMO. If one's roster is all over the place with rest not properly allowed for or time zone changes mean rest is very difficult then duty times below FTL are well in order. However, I would contend that the closer an Ops department gets to offering a stable 5 on 2 off roster with no change between early and late during a duty cycle, the more an operator is likely to think that crew can fly close to FTL.

Oh, and by the way, I think MoL has done more to harm the image of LCC than anyone else to date. I furthermore think that his method of dealing with staff, customers and pretty much everyone is appalling. Some of FR "so-called" cost saving measures are a) short sighted and b) repugnant. And the Ryanair method of doing business has very little to do with SouthWest Airlines other than looking the same.

[hobie]

Quote from Reuters ....

"March 3, 2005
Irish no-frills airline Ryanair said on Thursday passenger numbers in February rose 13 percent from last year to 2.12 million.

The carrier said in a statement its passenger load factor was 79 percent in February compared to 77 percent a year ago.

Ryanair announced last week it had ordered new planes worth more than USD$4 billion from Boeing as part of an ambitious plan to double its passenger numbers by 2012.

Dublin-based Ryanair, which aims to become Europe's largest airline in seven years, plans to expand aggressively in Europe, particularly in Spain and Italy, despite falling ticket prices and high fuel costs.

Rivals easyJet and British Airways have also reported consistently higher passenger numbers as more people travel in Europe on cheaper air fares.

(Reuters)"

Who are these 25 million passengers a year who keep on flying with them if they are as bad as some would say :confused:

[Max Angle]

implies that current FTL are less safe than they could be. Exactly so, being rostered to current FTL limits can result in serious fatigue. CAP371 is NOWHERE NEAR as safe as it could be, in fact it's a joke in some areas and the scary thing is it's not half as bad as some other countries schemes.

[Sunfish]

Iflyplanes. Your comparison between a brand new BMW and a clapped out Morris Minor is incorrect.

When you buy a new aircraft, you are also buying the teething problems and hidden defects that come with it, as the owners of BMW 7 Series cars with software problems will tell you.

It may be news to you, but Airbus and Boeing go to very great lengths to make sure that everything that can be replaced or rebuilt in an aircraft, can be returned to original condition.

The bits that cannot be replaced or rebuilt easily, like the wing center section, are built not to fail within the likely life of the aircraft, like the chassis of your hypothetical car.

Furthermore, my guess would be that when your bright shiny new aircraft arrives from the factory, the first thing maintenance will do is take out at least one of those bright shiny new engines and chuck an old "Clapped out" (your term, not mine) engine on the wing in order to equalise things in its engine module maintenance schedule.

Furthermore, the tires, wheels and brake packs you run will be similarly "clapped out".

Please do not confuse bright shiny aircraft interiors and cockpits with increased safety. There is little if any connection provided maintenance is first class.

[Idunno]

I thought that T&C were generally hammered out between employers (who want as much as possible for their money) and unions (who want as much as possible for their members).Patently NOT. Ryanair DO NOT DEAL with unions. That is the nub of this discussion!!

(I thought) Regulators define safe limits using the lowest common denominator principle (ie to cover all situations and persons).You thought wrong. Scientific studies by the likes of NASA are largely ignored by regulators.
Politics is the main decider.

Duty time should be linked to duty and rostering IHMO. If one's roster is all over the place with rest not properly allowed for or time zone changes mean rest is very difficult then duty times below FTL are well in order. However, I would contend that the closer an Ops department gets to offering a stable 5 on 2 off roster with no change between early and late during a duty cycle, the more an operator is likely to think that crew can fly close to FTL.The IDEAL WORLD scenario again. It sounds so simple in your Utopian dream, but in reality pilots are caught on reserves, rung up on days off, and harrassed into accepting duties which ultimately lead to disruption of your shiny happy scenario - and the creation of institutionalised fatigue in their rostering which is argued as being 'LEGAL'.

Oh, and by the way, I think MoL has done more to harm the image of LCC than anyone else to date. I furthermore think that his method of dealing with staff, customers and pretty much everyone is appalling. Some of FR "so-called" cost saving measures are a) short sighted and b) repugnant. And the Ryanair method of doing business has very little to do with SouthWest Airlines other than looking the sameYet you remain a fan.
How perverse!

[stagn8]

As for the comments on old vs new planes, blve that it takes about 12-18 months to de-bug a new plane and make it really reliable (sort out the wiring looms etc), so don't knock your used planes, someone has sweated hard to make them right...

- I also recall PR's issues with some 747's it acquired off an airline in the same region that only use new planes, turned out that airline hadn't bothered to upkeep the anti-corrosion regime recommended because it was cheaper, cost poor old PR a fortune to rectify.......

[mr lancaster]

Having worked with AIR UK [the uk traingschool for many british airlines and foreign.] 'The standard of training and airmanship in Ryanair is to a higher standard than otherl arge and high profile companys in the UK.

We have the most adavanced AFDM monitoring system available which is actioned upon if required and it is. and working 90 hours every 28 days is no problem. I have a fantastic home and social life ,no night stops and get over £5000a month take home after tax. I love flying do the job with 100% enthuisiasm [spelt wrong?]
and I stick to the SOP's. I get on the 800 and set a good tone for the day. and what's more I enjoy every minute of it.

Yup they are ruthless but I am proud to work for the most succesful airline in the UK and soon to be Europe.

And I certainley will not be leaving!!!!!!!!!!

[eagerbeaver]

Sunfish,

Are you saying when Ryanair receive a brand new aeroplane from Boeing that they remove all the new high value parts and replace them with older worn parts? (i am not being pedantic and referring to every part) How on earth is this managable? Have they got enough half worn out gear to keep replacing everything? Also i refute your claim as this would be a complete waste of manpower and raise costs unneccessarily - something Ryanair will never do.
Will you please expand? Just does not make sense what they are doing.

FYI i am about to join so would like to know

[GGV]

Yup they are ruthless ...
Mr Lancaster, do I take it then that you have yet to be on the receiving end of this ruthlessness?

Like ... if they give you a few days notice to move - on your next two days off - to another base with reduced pay.... will you then celebrate their "ruthlessness" or their fine business and management practices?

Of course you post has a (key) characteristic of many of the pro-management posts here: you sing the praises of a particular version of Ryanair life, appeal to earnings that ... well not everyone gets, forget about the Ryanair induced costs and then give a grudging acknowledgment that Ryanair are not entirely "kosher". Your concession was on "ruthless". We were granted some relief from the "visionary leader" bit. (Kim il MOL as someone here called him).

Do you, as a matter of interest wish to take the opportunity of denouncing this "ruthlessness" here? After all, some pilots with years of experience are convinced that you are right about this and that people with a high profile get targeted by management. How do you feel about that? Good or bad? Or just indifferent to the tune of £5,000 p.m? What do you stand for - greed?

[ifleeplanes]

Hummm Yup I have seen many a brand new 737-800 having its engine changed for an older one:confused: Best we recall all the old 200s and get rid of these clapped out new 800s ...?????

As for steering this debate...B*** I am standing up for the professionalism of the pilots in Ryanair who endure abuse at the hands of management and now face it from the rest of you so called professionals.

Limits are limits, we dont exceed them we may fly to them on occassion but not often. A FTL is a limit as is a DA , do you not fly to DA? And yes we do increase the DA if the weather is poor and we feel it warrants it.

And as for drink limits I think there are a few airlines represented within this debate who shouldnt be throwing stones!! Ryanair isnt one of them!

This thread as as per normal just turned into Anti Ryanair bashing, but this time with the slant towards the pilots. Your a disgrace, I will no longer debate this issue since you all talk from ivory towers and know NOTHING except to believe in the spin and hype you all spout. Grow up...you are demonstrating the qualities you all are so careful to critise.

[Aloue]

Mr. Lancaster says...

We have the most adavanced AFDM monitoring system available which is actioned upon if required ........

But since there is no agreement with the pilots.... what protections are there against abuse ..... so what does "actioned upon if required" mean?

You sound quite happy in your little world of perfection. Long may you live in bliss.

[captplaystation]

Makes a change for those of us on here who actually know something about Ryanair (i.e.the ones who actually work for them) to find ourselves actually defending them.From the other side there is an incredible amount of ill-informed tosh being bandied about.I've been around the block a bit in Europe and have been very pleasantly surprised by RYR operating standards in most respects including the abilities/motivation of our cadets( hamsters would never understand the incentive to excel provided by spending your own money!).Unenlightened man management seems to be endemic in most companies I've encountered,at least in RYR the knife goes straight in the chest under your eyes and not between the shoulder-blades several months/SIM-RIDES later.The sad fact unfortunately is that our esteemed leader cannot see what a potent asset this latent employee fidelity could be to his global vision.T'was always thus, shame he cant see the wood for the trees.

[Ennie]

Saw a Ryanair flight last week arrive in a blizzard, minus 3 degrees, on the ground for thirty five mins, saw no walk round, no engineers walking round, departed with no de icing. Fair enough, no problem, but come on, lets keep it safe.

[captplaystation]

More and yet more tosh, dont think the spectators balcony at EIN(?) without access to either the A/C or the relevant RYR documentation is a suitable location/platform to question crews judgement/ application of procedures."Spectators Balcony " is always available for this sort of thing; unless of course you want to consult your spotters notebook and give us date, flight No .oh and (of course) registration of the "offending " flight;then the crew can either consider their actions or defend themselves if appropriate.Please try and consider that maybe, just maybe we are just as professional/ no more(or less) fallible than all the other companies you wouldnt dream of criticising on a public forum.Like it or otherwise that is the fact of the matter as most un-biased proffesionals would suspect.

[Ennie]

Cantplaystation, how does in the flight deck of another airliner sat next to the Ryanair sound??
As you say...yet another, I say....yet another...potential accident.

[classjazz]

Avoiding some of the pitfalls created by earlier contributors can I just go back to the beginning and tell you why Ryanair do concern me. My background (45 years) is entirely aviation, military and commercial from ground servicing to flight engineering and airline management of training. Now I look at other airlines operations purely from a passenger point of view - and it is that which concerns me. An earlier correspondent mentioned the lack of de-icing and walk round checks during a QTR. Yes - this happens and is an inevitable consequence of commercial pressures. The Captain makes the decision and that is it. But it is the cabin crew that mostly concern me.
I recently travelled on a Ryanair -800 and watched with professional interest as the cabin crew "performed" their demonstrations. I don't think that I have ever seen a better example of a c/c being utterly bored with their lot. The demonstration was out of synch with the audio and was utterly slapdash. When the c/c attempted to point out the emergency exits I took out of the seat pocket, the safety card only to find that it describing the exits on a -200 series. Although I could see from looking out of the window that it was an -800, I asked one of the girls if she could confirm that the aircraft that we were traveling on was indeed an -800 series. She looked at me as though I had just landed from another planet and walked away.
I did some research (just to make sure about the exits) and indeed did find that the position of the exits on the -800 series were diferent to the -200. I also came across the incident at Stansted where the cabin crew had attempted to push the pax out of an exit close to a burning engine. Fortunately the fire crew had resisted this attempt. But it did confirm my views about the standard of cabin crew training.
I e-mailed the IAA and they confirmed that the situation I described was lacking in professional competence and they would investigate. Subsequently I took a call from the IAA officer responsible, who told me that (surprise, surprise) they had since checked all other aircraft belonging and all the safety cards were correct for the type of aircraft. "As you know" he said, "this sort of incident goes through airlines at the speed of light so......" He left the rest of sentence hanging in mid air. I also got the impression - from the rest of the conversation - that RyanAir are subject to more checks from both the CAA and IAA than is perhaps normal and certainly that I had come across before retirement.
I have no criticism of the flying side of RyanAir and commend their time keeping BUT the cabin crew are a different matter. Hopefully my comments to the IAA will have prompted a "behind the scenes" action plan. I will not willingly travel with RyanAir again so may never see any improvement.

[captplaystation]

Ennie; I,m very glad for you that your employer allows you the spare time neccesary to monitor another crews performance whilst no doubt giving due attention to your own.I would still be very surprised if any of my fellow crew knowingly departed with wing contamination,the well known Non-environmental-icing problem on the 737NG means that we have de-icing avail at the most unlikely locations/times and I have never seen crews shy away from using it.Our management have issued numerous Memos on the subject and you can be sure that they and Boeing are only too aware of the problem;any crew going down that road are totally on their own as regards adherence to SOP,s .I can assure you 100% that we are under no,and I mean NO commercial pressure as regards de-icing;with our tankering policy it is a daily complication for us.If it was any other way believe me I wouldnt deny it on an anonymous forum;I have kids at home too,and we are most certainly not the cowboys some would like to portray (usually to suit their own agenda).To answer the very original posting,what do you expect in a world driven by greed and run by accountants? A ******* miracle is not about to happen in this dog eat dog world.As I discovered a long time ago, just get on with it and look after your Life your License,and your job,never forgetting that order of importance.Stay safe stay standard guys and gals.

[caulfield]

I worked for Ryanair and the rumours are true.
Good points(every airline must have some good):
i)they are successful(economically that is)and provide jobs to many
ii)they enable poor people to travel by air
iii)they pay well
But that really is about it.
Bad points/
i)90% of all people who work for Ryanair are rude SOB's...they cant help it...its de rigueur..if they ever left Ryanair,they'd probably be quite okay
ii)strong arm tactics against pilots..including but not limited to abuse of contract pilots(I was one) who dont conform to the Orwellian nightmare that is Ryanair..and if you dont join the club,they have some very handy little loophole's that work to their advantage..future Ryanair contractors be warned.
iii)Problems stem from the top as with all companies...its just not good business acumen to have an annoying little weasel as your CEO...and the chief pilot is a joke...no tea and biscuits with him,he doesnt even know your name,he doesnt want to know your name and if you have a safety concern or a problem,get a dog or a psychiatrist
iv)they'll do crazy things like send you to Bergamo to do a flight and then find that there's already a Captain rostered for that flight so the whole trip was a waste of time...and they dont apologize...no way,forget it.
v)a lot of Dutch/belgian F:O's with 250 hours who think they know it all...thing is they're in hock with Ryanair and love the company because they do a lot of hours..woe betide if you get on the wrong side of this bunch..they make great spies for the Orwellian nightmare
vi)cabin crew are mostly a friggin nightmare..they must all come from the same backward town in essex or some godawful bogtown in Limerick...only nice ones were Spanish or Italian.
vii)most pilots are usually gentlemen..i mean you may not like someone but you recognize that he's straight-up...well,here they're breeding the new generation and its decidedly blue collar..of course,there are some nice pilots in Ryanair,but they'll get weeded out pdq
viii)They treat their passengers just like their staff...badly.Rememeber that awful TV program Airline where a bunch of people dressed in orange T-shirts were caught on camera being rude to their adoring public..magnify that fivefold and you've got Ryanair.

I could go on but whats the point anyway...

[FlyingIrishman]

Caulfield no wonder you didn't stick it at Ryanair - with an attitude like that they did a very good job weeding you out very quickly. I would disagree that 90% of Ryanair are SOBs as you put it so nicely - one thing the airline has got going for it is that 90%+ are actually excellent people to work with, and that's including the chief pilot who is a true gent.

I don't dispute that there are crewing issues like you've described but in my experience that was only a very odd occasion. As far as the Dutch and Belgian FO's are concerned, yes there are a few bad eggs, but that has nothing to do with nationality. Cabin crew work extremely hard and I suppose you see yourself far superior to "godawful Limerick and Essex backwaters". All I can say to you is good riddance!! And to use your words again, I could go on but what's the point anyway...

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

I am not a defender of Ryanair, I have never worked for them, flown as a passenger with them, or applied for a job with them. However, in all the airline jobs I have ever had, I have never been able to watch the aircraft parked beside me constantly enough to say no one did a walk round. The only way I could monitor them that closely would be by neglecting my own duties.
Frankly, a spotter in the gallery would have a better chance of knowing a walk round had been missed!
Edited for spelling.

[captplaystation]

We have many excellent Dutch F/O ,and lost a few who left with mutual empathy, I leave you to draw your own conclusions where our observant Dutch Co-Pilots interests in this matter stem from.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hello all
With regard to the argument about old or new, well, the reality is that new aircraft can and do go u/s just as fast as the old ones. Airbuses are probably no better than Boeings on that one. Any pilot who has ever conducted an acceptance test flight will be well aware of how the factory can put pressure on the customer to accept the aircraft "without faults". As for routine line flying, there are two kinds of pilots, those who will go with snags( for fixing later) and those who won't. The engineers know how far to go, when asking a pilot to "carry" a snag. Every engineer knows which aircraft in the fleet are the "snaggy" ones.
As for the erosion of T and Cs, it starts at the top when the senior pilots allows it to begin. The old sweats in FR should have stopped the rot but didn't. Giving the new guys a hard time about buying their way in and accepting lesser contract standards is partly justified but the aim should also be directed at their forebears.
regards
TDD

[matblack]

As a frequent flyer I choose not to fly Ryanair. This is not because I doubt the pilots ability in any way but because of my concerns over the attitude of the CEO. In my business activities (non aviaition) I do observe situations from time to time that used to happen 20 years ago but ought not to occur in this modern legislative day and age. These situations occur often in large multinational companies with high profile safety cultures. Such "breaches" in safety procedures generally occur due to the fear of failure to meet operational targets. This fear is driven frequently by the culture of the senior management. My "boycott" of Ryanair may be ill founded but as a paying customer that's my choice. My concern is more for the background activities such as pressure on despatchers & maintenance managers. With the introduction of new compensation schemes from the EU I fear that pressures may lead to one corner cut too many. This could equally apply to any airline, I accept. It's just that CEO...

[Say Mach Number]

Having read and contributed to this thread and in my mind felt it had been put to bed. Couldnt help but notice the 'MK overrun' story sitting above this thread. A 747 overruns and there are 3 responses!

As someone commented on that thread 'not MK again!'

Yet have not seen any "MK worry the hell out of me and many other professional pilots" threads appearing.

We have an impeccable safety record at FR yet we get absolutely hammered on these forums. Much of it safety related and most of it bull.

Sometimes I think people feel its trendy to bash the lads and lasses at FR.

[Runway 31]

Having read through this thread I wonder if professional should be included in the title. If the responses given indicate the professionalism of the individuals concerned, god help us all.

[Aloue]

The central issue is whether or not there is substance to the repeated claims made about Ryanair.

We have claims being made about FR safety with which I do not agree. There is little appreciation of the fact that much of FR training is often much better than in comparable airlines, etc. etc. But, the fact that silly or unrealistic claims are being made does not disprove the thrust of many of the posts made in a wide range of posts over the past year or so.

The recurrent theme is one of systematic abuse and exploitation of employees, including bullying and intimidation. The airline conducts itself in a "robust" manner at all times and has even used its legal advisors to demand removal of a threat from PPRuNe - apparently because of the repeated assertions that a "fear culture" does indeed exist.

Either these claims of emploitation and abuse have substance, or they do not. There is either a "fear culture" or there is not. Apologists for Ryanair - and Mr. Lancaster comes to mind since he is one of the more recent - always seem to appeal to some supposedly positive side of Ryanair without ever addressing the "fear culture" issue (almost as if it was something to be endured).

Does this mean that they (a) are blind to its existence, (b) are apologists, or even management "in disguise", (c) do not care for anything other than money, or, (d) that Ryanair is unfairly accused of having such a culture?

Swopping insults does not take us any closer to finding out if the widespread perception of Ryanair is justified. But the claims are insistent, repeated across all levels of the organisation and give rise to concern at all levels except, apparently, where it counts in terms of having it investigated and sorted out one and for all.