to bang out or not to bang out

[swords 29]

plane is under control....no flames licking round your bum....but engine is silent. no runway within glide range.

PPL tuition for forced landings.....find a suitable field
but with ex-military hardware underneath you...say a JP5....do you point aircraft somewhere safe, and bang out, or find a long flat surface? does it make any difference if the wind in 40kts at 2,000 feet?

any views out there?

[jimgriff]

Take a look at the
"SILLY QUESTION OF THE DAY" Thread on flight testing forum.

This subject is discussed in full there.

[H Peacock]

JP3/5 and Tucano could technically all be force landed without power. The stronger the wind the better due to the reduced groundspeed; could also be a good reason not to jettison the ac and use the parachute. I would prefer to risk a 50-60kt G/S forced landing than a 30-40kts G/S parachute landing IF I had a suitable field. However, not much time at the bottom to revert to the seat if you did pork it up!

[maxburner]

If you bang out in a surface wind of 35 knots or more you can expect some major injuries. Try running flat-out into a wall. Then imagine the impact at twice that speed. I'd stay with the jet for as long as possible and look for a flat field, leaving the ejection seat stuff until the limit (10% of the rate of descent) approaches.

[Cheers Chief!]

Just because you've shut down and can't see any flames, doesn't mean the fire is no longer there. Times like this call for supreme trust in the captions,
captions out - stay until 1/10 RoD,
captions lit - get out quickly!

[soddim]

Hopefully not a factor to consider but if the seat was last properly serviced a long time ago it might be best to continue to use it as a chair.

[Lafyar Cokov]

Certainly on TinCan and Ork I was always told that forced landing was not an option. If you are happy to land in a bumpy field sitting on a live ejection seat that doesn't necessarily have 0/0 performance then all the best to you.... for me I'd rather find a school to avoid and bang out!!!

LC - I fly helicopters now though - shows you what I knew!

[Llademos]

To quote 'Whacky Wheeler' on JP Groundschool Cranwell (I wonder where he is now) ...

'If in doubt, there is no doubt - pull the handle!'

Can anyone remember the (libellous) acronym about Bader in one of his exams?

[UNCTUOUS]

Whilst talking about the Tucano, if we were, what's the incidence nowadays of the dreaded prop-seal failure and loads of oil all over the canopy? (with zero vis for the front-seater?)

What's the CFS dictum nowadays on what a solo stude should do? Does he have to bang out or can he unstrap, crawl into the rear-seat and land (or do the poison dwarf's solution and become instantly/urgently formation qualified for a wingtip formation landing)?

Just wondering as there were all sorts of silly solutions around ten + years ago from people who shoulda knew better.

UNC

[L1A2 discharged]

I understood, maybe wrongly, that all ex-mil jets had the seat carts all removed.

Pull black & Yellow, swear, pull again, swear again, look for flat field again

[Tarnished]

L1A2 it was up to the owner/operator to decide if he wanted to maintain the seat or inert it. Couple of things spring to mind - the bloke who "Fell out of " a JP out of North Weald when his brother (IIRC) turned the jet upside down for the first time after the seats had been serviced and refitted (oops). This in turn begs the question to the non-military trained individuals now flying bang seat equipped aircraft - how much egress/ejection and parachute descent drill training do you consider enough? Us mil and ex-mil folks were regularly exposed to dinghy drills (pool and sea), rapid egress practice, hanging harness, parachute descent drill etc etc. It all (thankfully) became second nature, do it in you sleep sort of thing.

Saying to yourself 'if the engine quits and I don't have a runway in gliding range I'm going to eject (and tell my pax to eject too! - how well prepared is he/she going to be?)' is a well and good but I can assure you its not a smooth ride and its not without its own risks.

Sticking with it and hitting the ground at at best 70mph is not a pleasant ride either, sitting on a UXB, no airbag. Think of what a high speed motorway car crash looks like.

Jim Griff - time to post your link here again!!

Fly safe

Tarnished

[jayteeto]

Wacky Wheeler? Now thats a flashback.... If you failed an exam the interview was something like: "Any problems?", "No Sir!", "Ah, Any sexual problems?". A fabulous man. I thought ACEDB passed that exam...
The reason we were given in JP5 groundschool was that the seat would fire if there was any distortion of the cockpit floor on landing. The 90kt seat meant that if it fired, you died. Hence eject rather than Force Land.

[Zlin526]

Dunno, ask the civvie chap who recently deadsticked a Gnat into a muddy field.....!:oh:

[Gainesy]

IIRC a civvy JP was successfully force landed on some mud flats in an estuary a couple of years ago. N Ireland maybe?

[jimgriff]

The JP that belly landed didn't have live seats!! So the crew didnt have much of a choice and were very lucky!!IMHO

Live seats in the civvie market.....
The MOD do disarm the seats before sale.
However, there are companies who specialise in servicing and certifying e seats in the civvie market.
The CAA suggest that any swept wing, e seat equipped a/c should have live seats. IMHO any a/c that was equipped with an e seat should have a working e seat installed whoever owns it.

The north weald guy was very lucky to live and it was because of the preflight brief he had that he was able to pull the manual overide handle and loose the seat and deploy the chute although he wasnt "ejected". The seat was found to have a worn toplatch which allowed the seat to slide out and through the canopy when inverted (with passenger attatched) He didnt even have the harness leg loops on properly and was saved only by the release box jamming in his upper clothing and a wider chest than waist.

Civvy jets with bang seats info here (http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/seat-regs.html)

[Evil J]

There are plenty of civvie a/c out there with live bang seats. Not just JP's but also more modern East European types....the Duxford L39 tragedy springs to mind with regard to the difference between a (ex?) military pilots response and a non (ex) military pilots response to "unusual" events close to the ground.

[poor southerner]

Indeed I think you will find 'most' ex-mil jets have live seats. But agree the training and prep of pilots and pax in not what it 'could' be.
Seen to remember someone in a JP5 banging out over the wash only to die of exposure due to lack of correct clothing.

Plus the expected addage of getting YOUR bird back home no-matter what, coz you paid for it. I may be wrong but was this not the case with G-HHUN ( hunter mK.4) going into Dunsfold after the candle had gone out ?.

[Paracab]

poor southerner,



Is This The One ? (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/may_1999/jet_501781.cfm)

[Roghead]

Tarnished makes a good point with regard the lack of currency reference seat training ,drills,survival etc., which most non mil bang seat travellers would suffer from. However there is evidence that as long as the user knows how to pull the handle, that is all he/she needs to know and that all the other useful information is exactly that...useful but not essential. I know of one accident (Javelins mid air, Far East mid 60's) where the T-bird pax was a locally enlisted airman with very limited seat training who survived the ride with nil physical problems. I'm sure there are many more. I also accept that I never made the "ride" but suffered many hours of seat and associated training and as CSRO inflicted the pain on many others, but do wonder how much was necessary.
Glad to hear that the locals haven't blunted your wit Tarnished. Enjoy the sun.:cool:

Just reread the post from Poor Southerner, and must add that the Military had poor examples of surviveability post ejection despite the extensive training. As an ex CSRO and CFSO I found that difficult to understand at the time, and as a retired old fart now put it down to arrogance rather than ignorance.

[AdLib]

And who WAS 'ace db', young ... jayteeto?

[Ivor Fynn]

I was at Whacky's dinning out night at Cranwell. As I remember he retired to be a Justice of The Peace somewhere in Nottingham but I heard he had passed away a few years later.

Was any one asked to take his daughter to a summer ball, apparently if you took her you were in for a memorable night!!!!!

:p :p :p

[Llademos]

That was it ...

ace db - 'Ace Douglas Bader' to which WW would respond 'no he wasn't, he was a :mad: '

I wouldn't have liked to come up against him in court! Sad to hear he's not around, though - one of life's 'characters'

[jayteeto]

Didn't know he had passed away, very sad... His dining out night speech was fabulous. Quite relevant to what the services ask today of its aircrew. Part of it was to remind pilots that although they had the glamorous lifestyle and pretty girls, they were exactly the same as troops in the trenches, there to go into harms way. 'When the Queen pays you the Shilling, one day she might ask for her money back, remember you are just a number so live with it!!' It all brought a tear to the eye.

[Pontius Navigator]

Never had to do a roll with a parachute on but I have lost count the number of times I have done para rolls tripping on nothing more than a pebble and come up dusty but unhurt.


Practice bleeding may be a pain but far less painful than the real thing.

[jimgriff]

Controlled parachute rolls are great for training, but I can assure you and I do speak from experience, that landing under a normal (not a sporty thing) parachute is more akin to the proverbial "sack of spuds".

To do one in a 20 to 40 knt crosswind must be bloody frightening!!:bored:

[Tarnished]

Jimgriff,

Maybe I'm being a bit dull here but ......

Surely left to its own devices doesn't a parachute just go with the wind, therefore all basic chutes land downwind. There are vents at the back of a standard ejection seat chute to make it go forwards so that a concious participant can steer into wind. Crosswind landings therefore only come when someone has tried to mess with the laws of nature:D

I was in no state to try and steer anything during either of my descents, landed like your sack of spuds and then some!!

Any other ejectees like to offer their experiences?

T

[airborne_artist]

Controlled parachute rolls are great for training, but I can assure you and I do speak from experience, that landing under a normal (not a sporty thing) parachute is more akin to the proverbial "sack of spuds".

Vital to keep the legs together and bent, which is why the ground trg. has its place. Worth remembering that 20 knots would be above limits for airborne forces static line jumps, and that nil wind is not preferable. About 8kts is just perfect for a PX4 - not sure about Mr Baker's silken devices - I guess at that stage in the process you don't really care.

Also much easier jumping at night - the comparative lack of visual clues is an advantage.

How many on this board have stepped out - ie left a non-viable aircraft that was not fitted with a seat? A stude and his instructor at RN EFTS in 1979 had to leave their Dog. Stude landed sunnyside in the cow meadow, QFI finished easy-over in the slurry pit...

[jimgriff]

What one has to remember is that the majority of "Emergency" chutes are the smallest parachute that can safely place a pilot on the ground without too much damage.
The size of the chute is dictated by the space that can be allocated to store it on the seat. This usually works out to be a 24 foot 'chute or even slightly smaller on modern seats with a aeroconical 'chute. Design does vary the descent speed, but not that much.
Most sport chutes for trainees who use the round chutes before graduating to the square stuff are 28 foot in diameter and even these have a fair decent rate. Troop chutes are more often than not 32 foot in diameter to accomodate the kit they carry, but this is let down to ground out brefore the chap(ess).
The other factor in this is that sprts parachutists usually wait for fine weather before jumping and this isnt always a factor that an emergency ejectee has much control over.

[mitten]

Interesting thread.

I was the "civvy" or is that "silly" who landed the Gnat in the field.

CAA say seats must be live in swept wing but not straight.

Having tryed it, I would land a JP in a field every time if I could and since I've had my one chance.... step out of a swept wing jet.

Not planning on trying it again though!

[SASless]

The descent rate of a 24 foot diameter chute even with a 20 knot wind to drag you about beats an arrival at a 450 knots with the same approach angle. Any landing except directly downwind (facing upwind/drifting rearwards down wind)....that is...feet, butt, head...hospital....will usually allow for relatively minor injuries.

The dragging part can become tiresome....after about the third hedgerow and fifth barbed wire fence....it becomes tedious at best. The real thrill is to cross a motorway in that fashion....been there...done that. Some genius wanting to have a laugh put a half brick in the end of the windsock. For sure it felt a bit windy but the windsock was not at half straight, now was it?


Someone remember the second floor breaking and entering in the housing estate across from the Sunderland Airport years ago? Done on a windy day by a sport jumper. Jumper smashed through the second floor of the flat....stood up...rendered a Cheerio and was snatched back out of the window by the chute blowing over the rooftop....pulled him up and over the roof...broke his leg when he landed on the other side. The old dear in the flat had a heart attack due to all the commotion and sight of the alien creature that destroyed her windows. Ambulance arrived to pick up the casualty....took the jumper thinking he was the patient....left the heart attack victim upstairs unknowlingly. Second unit had to be dispatched to fetch grandma with the heart attack.

[stillin1]

In answer to the origional Q - bang out every time if you can't AFL it onto an airfield. You may well walk away from the ejection (or at least get carried away ALIVE). There is only a slim chance of getting away with AFLing onto a "flat bit of ground" in a jet (even a little trainer).
Ref pretty para roll on landing - double figures in training parachute jumps + zero on pretty landings. Arrived like a sack of s##t every time!!!::
ref high wind speeds - if the donk has stopped I don't care, I'll hit the deck slower in the chute than in the jet and the chute will not break up and kill me! Bones mend, mince don't!
RAF stops peace-time flying if wind exceeds 40kts :: :cool: :

[gravity victim]

I can confirm that the British 24-ft 'Irvin Oscillator' is a highly unpleasant ride, and the best one can hope is to arrive on the upswing. (I didn't, ankle still twinges occasionally.) The US 'C9' ejection seat canopy was far better and you could kill the tendency to oscillate by releasing the centre rear 4 lines after opening ('four-line cut'), which also gave some forward drive and steerability. The same effect can be achieved on the Irvin, if you have a hookblade knife handy, and after that first ride I always did.

[Jobza Guddun]

GV,

Cutting the lines would surely only work in the event you had a long descent? I would have thought that following a low level ejection, a guy wouldn't be compus mentis (sp?) enough to do that. I take it ejectees are a bit overcome for a short while afterwards are they?

[gravity victim]

Jobza,

Good point - but with a higher deployment it would help. The US system had a couple of loops ('four-line jettison') which gave the option of doing it. If unconscious/injured you certainly would not want any forward drive, as you might arrive facing downwind.

[TwoDeadDogs]

hi all
Civvie parachutists, even with fully steerable chutes, generally knock off when the wind reaches 20kts(apart from the real nutters). Some of them put pressure on the drop pilots to take them up when the wind is greater than 20kts, but generally sense prevails. Given the amount of minor injuries that happen routinely(ankles, bruises,cuts,etc), parachuting is risky enough without factoring in stupidity.
Incidentally, a friend of mine ejected from a SHAR at low-level and was in the air for 0.6 seconds. The aircraft remained aloft for about the same. not much time for decision-making there.
regards
TDD