Mess Dress Rules

[wiggy]

Many moons ago - mid -70's, a chap, on entering Her Majesty's establishment at Sleaford, was introduced to Mess Dress Rules....Now as I recall it hats in civilian dress( ladies, raised to, for the use of) had just gone....however Mess Rules were Suits Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, Sports Jackets Wednesdays and Weekends.......Jeans, :mad: never.
I wonder, are Mess Dress Rules these days more relaxed?

[BEagle]

Considerably.

[FJJP]

Odiham mess rules take the form of a letter, from the PMC [or is it the Staish?], that states that he expects his officers to be dressed appropriately at all times.

I understand there have been no problems...

Some messes these days operate a 'RED' and 'GREEN' system. When it's RED, it means that high-powered guests are about, and more formal dress should be worn. GREEN allows for a more casual mode. Usually a plaque on the entrance hall table announces the dress code.

You still get the odd pratt who has no sense at all - like the idiot who walked into the bar one summer Sunday lunchtime wearing a only pair of thong size bathing trunks and nothing else - despite the scruffs bar being a few feet away. Great impression to give your guests - would you do that at your local pub? Would the landlord stand for it?

[StopStart]

One of the dangers of commissioning the working classes I guess...

:ok:

[BEagle]

Something with which we were grateful for your excellent assistance during recruiting fayres, eh Stoppers?

So that no 'common' students made it past your initial filter to our interview stage...

And rightly so!

:ok:

[Zoom]

I remember trying to argue that surely it was better to see a junior officer in a smart blazer, etc on a Monday night than a grumpy, aged, bean-stealing senior officer in a greasy, threadbare tweed suit. It didn't work.

[Fence-sitter(?)]

ZOOM, you really ought not to talk about Beagle like that!

[teeteringhead]

Likewise Zoom , I once tried to argue that as a particular jacket and trousers of mine, although of different materials, were bought together and only ever worn together - they therefore constituted a suit. Didn't work though. :(

But then I was also asked to leave th4 dining room for daring to wear a cravat rather than a tie with my tattersal check shirt and tweed sports jacket - at Saturday beakfast!! An' ye tell that to the young folk o' today ......

[FFP]

My thoughts . . .. . .

Let's not forget guys that the Mess is the home of many people, and whilst standards etc are all well and good, to have some tw@t who visits the mess for a meal every now and then to use his associate member right to turn his nose up and complain about the youth of today, really is the last thing the guys and girls need.

Changing RAF, changing officers. Different Rules ?

(Awaiting inevitable incoming . . .. :E )

[BigGrecian]

At Daedalus you would think people had never read mess rules and the red dress board is blantantly disregarded by most members at lunch time!

[brakedwell]

During the late fifties when V Force crews used to wander round the Officers' Transit Mess at Luga dressed in flying suits bristling with pipes and hooks, an old Transport lag was moved to write in the suggestions book: Suggest the bar be pressurised to make the V Force feel at home.

[Art Field]

There was, many years ago at a large Norfolk base, a nav , one Gegegogan, who reckoned he was the epitome of sartorial eligance. He had two suits, one bright green, the other bright yellow and when he got bored with them he wore the yellow jacket with the green trousers ,or viceversa. The cheeky devil had the nerve to criticise someone for wearing a Hawian style shirt on Ascension during Corporate.

[JessTheDog]

I had the displeasure of witnessing a pompous hon member (of an unnamed Mess) upbraiding a JO who committed the heinous crime of sticking his head round the bar door to see who was there...whilst wearing a topcoat! :mad: I was reminded of the Little Britain vomiting sketch sans vomit!

What made me very angry was when said hon member answered his mobile in the bar and had a lengthy telephone conversation without excusing himself!

I was young and naiive; otherwise I would have invited him to ring the bell and buy a round.....

[BTDTGTTShirt]

Art Field
I remember the giggly one when he arrived at Odious Field in the mid eighties. He had been back to his tailor and had a purple one made by then.
:cool:
Reminds me of a funny incident at Odious Xmas exchange drinks in Royals Mess a long time ago. PMC had decreed working dress or smart casual for royals. CMC decreed that the dress for all knockers would be lounge suits. Prior to going across to Royals Mess, knockers assemble for a sharpener in Knockers Mess. CMC sees very young crewman in very smart blazer and slacks and tells him, in a very derogatory fashion and in front of all the Mess that he will not be going to the O’s dressed like that and orders him to change. Young man is extremely apologetic and embarrassed and goes to leave the Mess when he is set upon by some very senior Masters who buy him a beer and tell him that he will go to the party without changing. CMC who is a very junior WO then tries to round everyone up to leave for the O’s Mess but is told in no uncertain terms by the very senior Masters as well as most of the WO’s that they would follow when they had finished their drinks. As soon as the CMC had left with only a small entourage to accompany him, a quick phone call was made to PMC. Dress code confirmed every NCO in the Mess except for the young crewman exchanged jackets (after all it was exchange drinks) and then marched off to join the party. CMC was almost apoplectic when he spied the throng arriving all dressed in jacket and trousers and not a suit amongst them. He left the party shortly afterwards and some of the JO’s were kind enough to open the window before he left. They forgot about the roses though. You had to be there to enjoy the carnage when everyone tried to find there own jackets and wallets. Happy Days :E :

[STANDTO]

I have still got my copy of 'Officer Behaviour' A fine read when all around you is going to the dogs.

Says a lot about what is wrong in general with life in the noughties - no style, no discipline, and no interest in making an impression.

Simple things like never folding linen napkins!

Ah!

(Could someone design a smiley with pipe and slippers please)

[adr]

Pipe and slipper smiley? Now who'd want a thing like that?

No copy of Officer's Behaviour on eBay, whatever that is. Ah well, time to turn on the wireless and see what the Sunday Torygraph has to say.

http://www.dourhu.freeserve.co.uk/Man_in_armchair_pipe__slippers.gif
Ahhhh.

http://www.soulmania.it/site/images/smilies/pipa.gif

adr

[tablet_eraser]

My Mess is strict by RAF standards at the moment... minimum of slacks or trousers, smart shoes, and an open-neck collar-attached shirt or polo shirt during the week for men, and the equivalent for ladies. Jumpers may be worn with shirts. And people WILL be bollocked for ignoring the rules. At weekends it relaxes to smart jeans, but trainers are still a no-no, as are t-shirts. Oh, and in the summer, tailored shorts may be worn throughout the week. With shoes and socks.

I don't think so!

I do get annoyed by inconsiderate people who decide that the rules don't apply to them. Yes, I live here, but I don't have to use the bar or dining room; therefore, if there is a dress code to be followed, I'll follow it. As for people answering mobile phones in the bar... :mad:

[Gainesy]

an open-neck collar-attached shirt

One assumes that attire is for the "Scruffs'" bar?:)

[JTIDS]

Have to say always thought mess rules to be a bit of a waste of time, as the mess rules at Odiham say... you know how to behave.

Did get a shock though when I went to Leconfield last summer and discovered the army still required suits on certain days, and jacket and tie was considered to be dress down on others. Had to eat in my bedroom for the entire time....

[STANDTO]

But what is wrong with that?

The forces were (and I hope still are) the last bastion of common decency, pride in one's appearance, and standards. If the Messes of today have acquiesced to the slip shod datum of what society has to offer in this day and age, then goodness help us.

In my brief time in, during the late eighties, it was said that RAF 'standards' were about 20 years behind civvy street. I was just twenty, and didn't see it as a bad place for it.

If, at a party, we are hearing people looking over at the bloke in the hoodie, saying " Oh, he's that recently commissioned officer. Going to be a fighter pilot, you know!" then we might as well pack up the Ikea flat packed furniture now.

[BEagle]

What's a 'hoodie'?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Hoodie, eh?

Must say, it does bring the face into a sharper focus against the dark background. Very thoughtful of them to consider the rifleman trying for a head shot.:E

[Lafyar Cokov]

I once produly displayed my hoodie at a naturist party - but I think I may have the meaning of this word confused.......

[FJ2ME]

Surely if we recruited more carefully to weed out the council-estate hoody-wearing type we wouldn't need the petty stupid rules to dictate to those of us who benefitted from a decent upbringing.;)

On the flip side, I find that those most pedantic towards mess dress rules are the sort of people who wouldn't see the wrong in wearing tailored shorts with socks and shoes. Or, indeed, wouldn't know the difference between Jermyn Street or aisle 3 of George at Asda. Its supposed to be a comfortable home for our hard-working personnel, not a snobby pensioners golf-club, for people with no dress sense anyway.

http://www.davanti.net/STYLES/TUXEDOST/T5.JPG

[BEagle]

Tailored shorts with shoes and socks - oh dear me no! One would look like some aged Malaysian rubber plantation owner....

Who was that appallingly dressed 1950's lounge lizard in your post, FJ2ME?

[STANDTO]

Really! I thought he looked rather smart.

Have you ever noticed that adverts for Farrah slacks are always accompanied by a drawing rather than a photograph?

Sensibly though, one can look smart even in casual attire, and it is important to remember the bigger picture. You represent a service to be proud of (!?)

Last week, we had some visiting lecturers. I turned up in a jacket, shirt and tie. the Jacket went on the back of the chair. Everyone else (i.e. my senior officers) turned up looking like a bag of Daz.

At least I know I left the right impression. :ok:

[PileUp Officer]

Hoodies and jeans are not worn exclusively by council estate scruffs and chavs.

If ‘officers’ lack such moral courage that they feel they have to wear pink shirts and red cords in order to fit in then the Air Force should take a good look at it’s recruiting standards.

The military needs to grow up and get up to date with regards to mess standards. Standards are all well and good but unnecessary prejudices are... well, …. unnecessary!

[BEagle]

"Hoodies and jeans are not worn exclusively by council estate scruffs and chavs."

Nevertheless, they are clearly not suitable attire for an officer to wear in the mess.

Next thing you know, they'll be letting in yobs with tatoos and facial scrap iron...

[PileUp Officer]

Next thing you know, they'll be letting in yobs with tatoos

Best get my coat then :uhoh: :p

[Widger]

Are you calling all Matelots Yobs???

[Zlin526]

To see what the future holds for mess dress standards, have a look here: (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

[teeteringhead]

Tatts and piercings??

Well that'd exclude George V (tatt) and Prince Albert (eponymously allegedly!);)

[FJ2ME]

BEags, the picture came from some tailor's website showing the different possibilities for evening wear:

http://www.davanti.net/template.php?pg=tuxedos

And PUO, I am prepared to accept that maybe not all hoody-wearers are chavs. However, a significant number are (see Crimewatch website below- alright its not a hoody but near enough)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/crimewatch/appeals.shtml

On the other side, it is certain that a pink shirt- wearing, mulberry cord-sporting chap is a fine upstanding gentleman and is never seen on the pages of crimewatch!

I agree with STANDTO, there is no better first impression a man can make than to turn up dressed smartly. Conversely no worse impression than can be made turning up looking like trailer-park trash.

I suppose then, PUO, you turned up to OASC sporting your latest sk8er gear rather than a suit?

In general, those who feel uncomfortable in a suit have suffered one of 2 problems:

1. They have had the misfortune to consult a poor tailor.
2. They have previously had cause to wear a suit only for harrowing occassions such as court cases.

[PileUp Officer]

Hoodies and jeans are not worn exclusively by council estate scruffs and chavs. If ‘officers’ lack such moral courage that they feel they have to wear pink shirts and red cords in order to fit in then the Air Force should take a good look at it’s recruiting standards. The military needs to grow up and get up to date with regards to mess standards. Standards are all well and good but unnecessary prejudices are... well, …. unnecessary!

Ok, ok. I was drunk when i wrote that - maybe it's unrealistic!

My sober point is this:

I fully agree that extremes of fashion should not be allowed in the mess but how can you define these?

Why are red cords acceptable but smart jeans are not?
Jeans are hardly an extreme of fashion

Edited to say:

I suppose then, PUO, you turned up to OASC sporting your latest sk8er gear rather than a suit?

Hmmm... FJ2ME... i think i know you.

I think i missed the point with the Crimewatch link too :confused:

[STANDTO]

Easy that one!

Jeans look SH*te!!

I have stopped wearing them, other than for gardening and going to the tip. It isn't a great deal of effort to put on a shirt, and a tie when appropriate.

I might say, that red cords would be pushing the boundaries for me!

[idle-centralise]

Jeans look S**te on older people, because it makes them look like they're trying to be younger than they are. The main problem is that two generations now have very different ideas of what looks smart. I have this argument with my (much older) dad all the time.

I-C

[NFI]

Mr STANDTO and others

What planet are you lot on. Join the real world. Things change poeple change. Move with the times.

If I were a serviceman then I would be moaning about lack of equipment / money etc, not gossiping like old wind bags about some Derby and Joan Club.:zzz:

[STANDTO]

that'll be why you're not a serviceman then :ok:

Seriously though, this isn't about the supply of kit, it is about own personal standards.

If the current CDS turned up at Downing Street in an FCUK t shirt and GAP jeans, set off with Typhoon trainers, then we would probably manage a couple of gliders

[NFI]

Me I am ex-service. Did enjoy most of my time.

However you do not just have to be in the services to maintain personal standards.

But you have to move with the times. The last few years that I had in the mod included long periods away from home, long and unsociable (sorry about spelling) hours. Too much make do. Too much bullsh*t for a modern service. During this period the quicker I could get off the base the better. You need time away from work and to me that included prancing around in a mess with silly rules left over from the fifties.

To me the secret to enjoy life in the modern air force is to have a life outside of it. Get rid of all messes (Officer and SNCO) and spend the money saved on the front line.

[STANDTO]

That is an interesting view, and you are probably right that the mess hasn't evolved as well as it might. However, it is an important place, where personnel can socialise without interference from the outside world. The demise of the Police Club hasn't done police forces any good, as that certain bonding and feeling of belonging has been watered down. The services aren't just a job. They are a way of life, for very good reasons.

No offence meant with the 'not in the services' dig. Just a bit of banter

best wishes

[totalwar]

Do the Officers mess at RAF stations allow the wearing of Jeans???? Do they have "scruff's Bars".

At my station the Datum bar is a scruiffs bar but anywhere else in the wardroom and the "devils cloth" is strictly forbodden !!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[JTIDS]

Isn't the point that here the CDS isn't about to pitch up in jeans and trainers at Ten Downing Street?

I don't think we're talking about letting dress standards when we're working fall (which could bring on a whole seperate discussion about new jumper types, blue gortex, and silly little badges on Combat 95) but the fact that having rules about what you wear when your living in what is nominally your house, in the modern day and age, verges on insanity.

If people want to wear jean and t-shirts in the mess (and I might add I don't) what can it possibly matter. Its meant to be a place for relaxing, and getting away from work, not presenting a corporate (another thing which makes my blood boil, could have sworn I signed up to be in a service...) image.

PS If "TOTALWARS" mess is a certain base in Cornwall, isn't it also true that while the Datum is the only bar to let in jeans, it is also the only one which ever has anyone drinking in it for most of the time? Am more than happy to be corrected.

[Safety_Helmut]

STANDTO

Your view about the messes not evolving is part way right, however, they haven't really evolved at all.

However, it is an important place, where personnel can socialise without interference from the outside world.

In my experience, so few people use the old folk's home that it is effectively irrelevant. Most members live off camp, forced to by the crap standard of quarters on offer. Consider what the official entitlement is for a married SNCO with one child for example.

The only people using the mess are those who live on camp to go and meet all the others who can't be arsed to go and buy their own house and live like parasites off the money that all the mess members have to pay. I know people forced through circumstances to live in the mess during the week who don't even venture into the bar because of the creatures that virtually live in there.

Do people really believe that a set of silly and outdated mess rules really help to uphold standards ? Instead, a visit away for most if it involves staying in amess, normally means a night out into the local town, and the real world.

Safety_Helmut

[totalwar]

That very true about the Datum bar.....in fact the main bar is only open for official functions and so whether you want to wear jeans or not you are firced to drink in the scruffs bar. I'm sure that is the same with many establishments.

[Cambridge Crash]

I think that some of the people posting agree that it is not an issue of rules, but a matter of personal standards.

As a member of the University, I frequently attend functions here at Cambridge - both college and University shindigs. Most people understand what is required of a particular function. Those attending formal hall (a 'dining in') wear academic gowns and black tie. Similarly, those attending 'at homes' in the Senior Combination Room or Masters' lodge know to wear a lounge suit. Chapel, such as Evensong and Compline, also sees students and staff to dress in a smart and tidy manner, without a formal 'dress code'.

The similarlities between College and Mess life are striking and apart from the standards required by the Praelector for Graduation (eg checking sock colour) dress standards are largely up to the individual. Yes, most students wear denim during the week, but enjoy dressing up when circumstances would dictate. Perhap Mess committees should rely on the common sense of its members, being cognisant that the Mess is also the home for a lot of people. Officers and WO& SNCOs know how to dress for function and when there are visitors. Isn't that enough without structuring pedantic mess rules that no-one reads?

[STANDTO]

it is a shame that things have seemingly gone down the pan. I enjoyed the spirit of mass life.

The accommodation issue is an interesting one. The recent inquiry into the training of recruits indeed found a wide range of standards.

Accordingly, I can imagine many looking at that and saying, 'well if they can't be bothered, neither can I'

problem is, once it has slipped, it is nigh on impossible to recover the situation.

the job, has indeed, gone to ratsh*t

[reynoldsno1]

Cambridge Crash
Now, this guy is really good... this is amazing stuff...
Chapel, such as Evensong and Compline, also sees students and staff to dress in a smart and tidy manner, without a formal 'dress code'.
Perhaps we can discuss this later. I prefer the more casual druid style, though perhaps something more enveloping would be preferable during human sacrifices....
eg checking sock colour in Lincolnshire this is very important, and always has been. It assumes a slightly less vital aspect of daily behaviour within British culture as a whole, but is dominant in Eastern English tradition, though this may not be as strong in the Sleaford area as it once was.....
Yes, most students wear denim
There are services available for mature students, plus walking frames, outside Block 187B. It may be possible to acquire Status Quo recordings at minimal. or no, cost.

[mightyai24]

Safety_Helmut,

There are many of us forced through postings (and area thereof) to live in, as we're not all blessed with a large paycheck each month. Mess dress rules are of relavance for all of US, and whilst we will be the first to whinge when a new PMC (or other person) changes things to a more formal standard, we will be the first to adhere to them, and hence the loudest of complainant when those who are lucky enough to have the means to live out fail to meet them. It is almost always those who don't who fail to meet the standards, and also who tend to reject the proposals at mess meetings that would make our HOME a happier place to live.

Rant off.

MAI24

[Safety_Helmut]

MAI24

I read your post, I re-read your post, and then I read it again, but I still can't work out what your point is ?

Maybe it's this excellent Shiraz i've neen quaffing all night.

Safety_Helmut

[Cambridge Crash]

Reynolds No1 (is this in reference to the Reynolds No?)

The point I make is that rules don't set standards, the behaviour of individuals do.

It works amongst an otherwise unruly bunch of students in Cambridge - the guys and girls dress appropriately when required; why do messes insist on trying to impose archaic standards? Perhaps Messes should appoint their own Praelectors to check dress standards!

BTW I go to chapel for the music - many recitals are held at the premier schola musica.

CC

[Compressorstall]

Just to cheer Beagle up. Tonight I had the misfortune to see a young hoodie wearer proudly giving the finger to passers-by tonight. Conforming to a stereotype?

[mightyai24]

Safety_Helmut,

Sorry, sometimes the Shiraz gets me too. The point I intended to make was that we're not all spongers who can't be @rsed to buy our own houses; some of us are simply unable to because we cannot afford to!

The other point was that we will always tend to be the ones who stick to the mess rules, and not just meet the minimum required standard. Whilst that was not a point you made in your post, I wanted to (try) and keep to the topic of the thread, rather than just biting hard!

Hope that clears it up!

MAI24;)

[STANDTO]

Well, although the clothes maketh the man, you need a bit of cashto buy stuff of decent quality.

What does a Flt Lt, with a couple of years seniority take home these days, if they don't get flying pay?

I get a feeling that with everything else, pay probablyhasn't kept pace either.

I joined in a monthe when they gave us a six per cent pay increase then changed living in to such an extent that my pay went down fifty quid a month ( and when you were only on £ 250 a month, that was a lot!)

[SirToppamHat]

Speaking as a 'liver-out', I don't make a great deal of use of the Mess, but I have to take issue of a previous comment:

once it has slipped, it is nigh on impossible to recover the situation

Not true in my experience. We had a situation where the scruffs' bar was being used entirely with virtually no-one in the main bar. On several occasions, guests coming into the Mess (including visiting senior officers from other units) inevitably drifted next door. The view was that as this was their choice, so they should not be offended by what they found. However, it was not deemed acceptable by the powers that be, and the Scruffs' Bar was closed. Now we have the one bar, with reasonably relaxed sandards (trousers and a collared shirt, no logos, no sports shirts etc), with the traffic-light system. IMO,it works reasonably well, without forcing people away from the bar to the 'all ranks facility'. It needs strong but reasonable leadership, and an acceptance by the Mess Members that certain standards are not negotiable.

One other thing that made me chuckle was the Wg Cdr's statement that he expected his officers to dress reasonably at all times; no reason why people shouldn't wander round dressed as Goths or whatever, but don't be surprised if it is reflected in your OJAR!

[JessTheDog]

One other thing that made me chuckle was the Wg Cdr's statement that he expected his officers to dress reasonably at all times; no reason why people shouldn't wander round dressed as Goths or whatever, but don't be surprised if it is reflected in your OJAR!

I recall a certain Northern unit some years ago where the Staish allegedly decreed that Officers had to be suitably attired at all times, even in the local town. This probably led to a few beatings by the locals...:ouch: You wouldn't get away with that nowadays!

A scruffs' bar is an asset to the Mess as it is good to have somewhere to relax, slumped in front of the TV, without socialising but if it has the @rse kicked out of it and the main bar is empty then it will surely vanish. Socialising is fun and one of the parts of the way of life that I miss most now in civvy street...

:{

[DP Harvey]

There's been some mention of the mess bar being a part of the home of those who live in. Errrm...I don't have a bar in my house. I have to leave ny home to go to a bar. Most messes have the "domestic" part which is properly de-regulated. I accept that the dining room is the exception to the rule.

Although I tend to support the relaxed dress rules, I do refute the concept that the mess bar is part of the home of those who live in. You happen to live very close to your local...and thats it.

[Incipient Sinner]

Oh dear DP Harvey, you have live out of the Mess for too long.

For those of us who 'live in', the Mess is our house and the bar our living room. It's where you go after dinner for a chat and to put your feet up (obviously not on the Mess furniture).

I completely agree with Cambridge Crash on the matter of personal standards but will be the first to kick anyone out of the bar who seems to lack them.

Just for your info, Flt Lts (especially single ones living in the Mess) have planty enough money to buy acceptable clothes.