STRESS DISORDER (LMF as it was)

[SPIT]

Hi
Does the same rule apply as in WW2 that if an NCO Aircrew refused to go on a mission he was stripped of his rank and flying brevet and postod somewhere to do the most menial task they could find but if an Officer type aircrew commited a similar offence they retained their rank and were quietly posted (with full flying status but were grounded) to a less demanding job.
I only ask this as with todays mixed crews ie:NCOs and Commissioned Officers this situation may occur in somewhere like The Gulf or Bosnia ???.:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Lockstock]

Does this answer your question?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39519

The old memory not what it used to be?? :confused:

[kippermate]

Good spot, Lockstock. :ok:

SPIT. Is there something you want to tell us? :confused:

kipper

[stillin1]

you guys are GOOD!
1 -0 to the good guys:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't know the Admin rules of the matter but we had a member of our crew who opted out.

As far as I know he retained his brevet as he had a previous tour on this aricraft type but was ground and lost his flying pay. What would have happened in the longer term I do not know. What actually happened we he was allowed to retire and transfer to the RAAF as an ATCO.

The other incident, which was not proven as LMF, we the Canberra captain that belly flopped on tak-off at Nicosia during the Suez campaign. I believe he disagreed with the politicians. I do not know anything more of the incident except it takes a fair amount of the cojunes to retract the undercarriage with a full fuel and bomb load.

[The Gorilla]

In WW 2 most members of the Armed Forces were conscripts. They were drafted under strict legal codes and anybody refusing was called a coward and treated harshly. Somewhat less harshly than the shell shock victims of WW 1 I will grant you!

Today we have professional volunteer Forces. Anybody, Officer or NCA who is in a flying position can refuse to fly. AP 3392 has a very nice chapter which IIRC is entitled "Aircrew who refuse to fly due to stress" or something like that. It has a very nice flow chart with regards to the disposal of individuals. The RAF also has (or had) an excellent Pyschiatric unit based at BZN with capable Doctors and Nurses whose aim is to get guys back flying again.
Most refusees should get to see this unit at some point.

I know of a number of instances 2 years ago whereby individuals refused to continue flying, some have left some have stayed and been promoted.

Like Pontius, AIUI, once you have been awarded a flying brevet, it cannot be taken away from you. Even if you remuster to another trade you still get to wear the brevet. I know of ex Air Eng's who went Ops Support and continued to wear the brevet.

:ok:

[SPIT]

Hi
LOCKSTOCK, thanks for pointing that out. I does make me feel a bit of a PLONKER. The memory aint what it used to be. Once again THANKS.:{ :{

[Jackonicko]

Weren't WWII aircrew all volunteers?

[BlueEagle]

Len Deighton wrote a book called 'Bomber' which covered this subject as it was in WW2.

[DC10RealMan]

I can confirm that all RAF aircrew in World War II were volunteers. I believe that that "status" allowed the RAF to treat stress cases with such harshness. I have heard of some cases whether they were NCOs or Officers I do not know who were treated in a more enlightened manner and send to a rest home in Derbyshire which allowed many to continue to serve in combat after treatment.

[The Gorilla]

Volunteers as in they were conscripted into the RAF and then they volunteered to go Aircrew??

[JessTheDog]

I can confirm that all RAF aircrew in World War II were volunteers. I believe that that "status" allowed the RAF to treat stress cases with such harshness. I have heard of some cases whether they were NCOs or Officers I do not know who were treated in a more enlightened manner and send to a rest home in Derbyshire which allowed many to continue to serve in combat after treatment.


Even an enlightened and considerate leader like Gp Capt Leonard Cheshire admitted he had been harsh with LMF cases, but this is not surprising in a campaign that cost 50,000 lives, perhaps needlessly, just to open a can of worms....

[Navaleye]

One pilot was similarly afflicted during Corporate and was sent home. By all accounts he was very badly treated despite all the BS about compassion and understanding from the Brass. I believe he was light blue serving with dark.

[C130 Techie]

Tail End Charlies written by John Nichol and Tony Rennell provides an excellent commentary on the life of the crews of Bomber Command during 1944 - 45 and covers the subject of LMF extensively.

A highly recommended read.:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Navaleye I also know of someone who had brown underpants in ASI after the 707 pitched up outside SD range. I believe he was shipped home and then opted out.

Mind you he was 'shot' even before the war and usually tanked up each lunctime as he couldn't hack the job.

[Training Risky]

Like Pontius, AIUI, once you have been awarded a flying brevet, it cannot be taken away from you. Even if you remuster to another trade you still get to wear the brevet. I know of ex Air Eng's who went Ops Support and continued to wear the brevet.

Just to address the point made above, all brevets are on velcro (ie, on probation) until the wearer has been CR for 6 months. So a Chinook mate has to keep his nose clean for a longer period than some fag-chariot driver who gets CR within a few weeks.:cool:

NB: There's a certain Nav u/t out there who was until very recently a GR4 OCU (pilot) stude, how's it going....!

[bad livin']

Gorilla, I've two mates who'v had wings stripped - one on the Chinook OCU who's a frequent poster here, and the other was on 15(R) recently, got chopped, lost wings and is now retraining as a Nav from day one on the Tutor. I cannot even imagine what that must have been like.

[Training Risky]

Bad Livin', good to see you dude.

Sorry I missed you last year at XXX XXXXXXXX, I'm back again in a few months.... I'll give you a call.

[teeteringhead]

I recall an extremely strange "retraining" story.

I had attended the funeral of a student aircrewman (ALM) from my squadron; after the service we went back to "Mum's" for the tea and ham sarnies bit. Inevitably the photo' albums came out, and I was surprised to see pictures of he whom I had known as A/Sgt Bloggs as an APO (Acting Pilot Officer) complete with Nav brevet!

Turns out that he had completed IOT and then Nav training to brevet standard, and soon after had been chopped, I know not where. He was either not offered, or had declined any other commissioned branch, and elected to retrain as airman aircrew. (rather fly as a SNIC than be a blunty orfiser - good man!)

Only possible apparently as his commission had not yet been "confirmed" whatever that meant..... Twas not too long ago either, mid to late 80s I guess without checking log books (b*gger - that's nearly 20 years ago!)

..and of course flying badges can be withdrawn for disciplinary reasons at any stage with the authority of the appropriate Service Board (QR J727 (3) refers).

[grobace]

The Gorilla said:

Like Pontius, AIUI, once you have been awarded a flying brevet, it cannot be taken away from you. Even if you remuster to another trade you still get to wear the brevet. I know of ex Air Eng's who went Ops Support and continued to wear the brevet.

Not quite true, as I understand it. Once you have been declared operational (or it might be once you have passed an OCU course) your brevet is confirmed.

Mind you, I heard recently that first tourist aircrew who fail an OCU are being shown the door. A sign of the redundancy times?

[The Gorilla]

Right, for those who have not been Aircrew!!

Once you have been awarded I said! Aircrew are not awarded their brevet until they have gone CR or the like. Usually about 6 months after a successful OCU. You normally get a piece of paper from PMA to confirm the award of the brevet which is usually backdated. And yes they may be WEARING a brevet before they are awarded it!! Play on words you see!!

Bad Livin,
Yes they didn’t make the grade did they?

And obviously if you are a real bad boy they can take it off you as well. However in my experience of the bad boys it doesn’t often happen even if you get caught nicking mess silver red handed!!

You know sometimes on here, it's like talking to the public on a train platform!

:ok: