View Full Version : reference legal case - careful what u say!

9th Jan 2002, 19:03
freind is going through court procedings at the moment so cant give to much away but, went to join a company (UK) they then asked for reference from a guy that used to work with him at previous company about the guy. they also confirm that it is a private reference and it wont come back on him for a reference. for what ever reason, he then decides to say that the guy is an idiot (they didnt get on - not professionally remember as they are both F/O's just didnt like him). the friend then gets turned down for the job - totally suited, rated etc with on reason given and until another friend who works there finds out what was said. now going to court, the interviewer while under oath must say what the other FO said, thus opening him up for slander and large reprocussions. moral to story, bite your lip, say nothing rather than unsubstaniated claims as you may end up the loser!

9th Jan 2002, 19:26
Hearsay evidence ("She said that he said...") is hardly admissable in a court of law.

9th Jan 2002, 20:53
As this forum is international whose law are you talking about? English, Scots, US,Australian,NZ, Canadian, French, German,Dutch etc,etc.?

9th Jan 2002, 21:46
And was it an unrecorded verbal reference or in writing?

9th Jan 2002, 22:18
its a UK airline and an unrecorded verbal passing commment, but enough for him to lose out. now in court, all parties are in the dock and must now tell the truth

Eff Oh
9th Jan 2002, 22:26
New employment law in the UK states that... An interveiwer must supply all notes of the interview, when asked by the interviewee. (If that makes sense!) <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Basically, you can see what they have said about you in your interview! Would love to see mine! :) Not sure if this applies to references.

Eff Oh.

9th Jan 2002, 22:27
basically, guy A finds out he didnt get the job and hears third hand that guy B said some comments, enough for the guy not to get a job. now in court, the company is potecting itself by saying that guy B was uncompimentary about guy A and thought that his comments were confidential. they are until guy A finds out and now it has gone thus far ie court, everyone is covering themselves, but moral is, watch what you say about people, especially as guy B had no real professional comment as they were both FO's

9th Jan 2002, 22:35
If asked to give reference "by surprise" (i.e., friend hasn't asked if it is OK to give name for said purpose) then (a) one is happy to speak highly of the target individual or (b) one gently refrains from doing so giving whatever appropriate reason (I am not qualified, I don't think it appropriate blah blah). All references should be given in writing. At NO TIME, however, should one be lulled into giving a bad reference...if someone is merely a colleague then it is unlikely you are qualified to judge and your views will reflect worse on you, if you are former "manager" or employer then you can and should confirm terms of employment and that they were satisfactorily completed (else person would have been let go)...



9th Jan 2002, 22:38
Oh and...if company relying on this anecdotal evidence has confirmed that it has done so? well..I wouldn't want to work for them...they appear to have acted very unprofessionally!!!!


11th Jan 2002, 00:09
This kind of thing has happened before and is a classic example of why you should be careful who you antagonise on the way up, whether inadvertantly or not. It's a small enough industry that there will always be someone who knows you or of you.

I've met several pilots who were regarded with a certain amount of disdain by others around them. Inevitably this always impacted their career. It wasn't just their qualifications or performance as a pilot it was often as not their personality that came into question.
The crucial questions seems to be whether I would want to share a cockpit with this person or come to that share a drink. I can think of several people who were puzzled by their relative lack of progress, yet it came down to the fact the everyone else couldn't stand them.

I'm certainly not saying that's the situation in this case. This may just be a case of personal dislike. But it happens, unfair or not, whether we like it or not.

If you are to be honest how many people do you know who you wouldn't like to share a cockpit with? How many pilots have you shared a cockpit with but wouldn't like to repeat the experience?

Tough one that.

11th Jan 2002, 04:04
and what about the guys that nobody -all crew!! dont like and are right pains but they get promoted and then you get the guys that everyone likes but doesnt get promoted. i beleive this guys was popular and the guy who put the boot in was basically jealous as he got on better with crew at his previous more than him!

11th Jan 2002, 15:31
Steepclimb it's been my experience that the people who get ahead in this business are not those popular types you refer to, but rather those who are driven by ambition such that they will back-stab, back bite, climb over, undermine, lie cheat and steal their way to the top. Just look at the Guvnor for instance. Now theres a guy who's got what it takes to make it big in aviation. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

The Guvnor
11th Jan 2002, 16:18
There have always been ways in which what on the surface looks like a decent reference is read between the lines by HR so that the true meaning can be established - with no loss of face on the part of the applicant.

Same also applies to letters of rejection.

11th Jan 2002, 18:16
Only give a reference verbally, or in writing, if it is good and can be substantiated.

A refusal to give a reference is generally sufficent to indicate that the subject is not worth it!

Sir Kitt Braker
11th Jan 2002, 19:11
There are ways of saying it without saying it:-

"I'm sure he'll settle down in a different airline"

"He was always positive about the outcome of his sim checks"

"He has come on a long way since he started with us"

"He has never, never damaged an aircraft"

"His crew always talk about their flight/nightstops with him"

"I must say- he has always managed to pay his bar bill"

bugg smasher
11th Jan 2002, 21:47
I would tend to agree with Idunno, it’s the ambitious and power-hungry @$$licks who successfully kick, scratch and fawn their way up the corporate ladder. This particular type of reptile, having licked his way up the ladder then insists on his own being licked in turn, a vain attempt, I suppose, to get the bad taste out of his mouth. I’ve personally witnessed some of the most appalling flight department power struggles, all-out free-for-alls where complete character assassination of the other party was considered tactically acceptable.

Unfortunately, it is exactly these types of people who are in positions to provide references, good or bad. Steepclimb is most wise when he cautions against antagonizing people.

In my opinion, nice guys just want to fly aeroplanes.