View Full Version : BMI loses another manager

24th Feb 2005, 09:26
BMI loses another manager. I think that 4 have now departed from Baby.And 2 have left from mainline in past 12 months.

Wake up Mike!

24th Feb 2005, 12:19
5 from flight operations!

24th Feb 2005, 12:33
Pitch can I assume the latest is the man at EMA? IF so what a loss. Own goal again for the senior management team.

24th Feb 2005, 13:31
Yes I agree and yes SG

Kalium Chloride
24th Feb 2005, 14:37
Any chance of this fellow's title so that we all might share the joke, or is this only open to those who speak in code? ;)

24th Feb 2005, 15:14
Given the lack of direction the company has, is the loss of any management a loss in real terms?

24th Feb 2005, 15:29
If my sums are correct, mainline has lost 12% of its pilots and 20% of flight ops management. Baby has lost a similar amount and 80% of its management team all within a very short time. It doesn't make good reading does it?

Maybe the managers who have left or are leaving have got it right.

mr solo
24th Feb 2005, 15:37
Thats right pitch, and I hear that there are a lot more pilots to go and apparently bmi will be recruiting soon !

24th Feb 2005, 15:44
Why have they left recruitment so late? Maybe they're not going to?

24th Feb 2005, 16:23
Want an example of appalling management?

On the way home last night I was intrigued to see a Baby doing circuits at NEMA ... in the snow. If I wanted my three bump 'N' grinds to sign me off on type I'm damn sure I wouldn't want to do it in those conditions.

I have it on excellent authority that the schedule was held up out of NEMA yesterday because they had no F/O's and the poor guy was signed off and line checked last night whilst the PAX waited in ignorance. I guess that would be a delay due to 'operational complications'!

Talk about pressure!

So, if you're reading this hope it all went ok mate, rather you than me. :uhoh:

24th Feb 2005, 16:54
You dont get "signed off to line" after circuits, you only get the paperwork signed off so that you can take your licence down to CAA Gatwick and get the type stamped on it,you then have to fly 30 line sectors (minimum) and you may, if you are good enough pass a line check and then you are able to go fly with line Captains F,O,s,and thats with some restrictions. Please dont slag off the training dept,bmibaby dont cut corners on training ,take it from me ive just completed it.The training I have just had, was as good if not better than any ive experienced before and no, its not my first jet job.

24th Feb 2005, 17:00
I suppose he has gone to Virgin Atlantic, just like lot of the pilots.

24th Feb 2005, 17:09

I wouldn't dream of slagging the training off I know what its like. I know many Baby and Regional pilots both Captains and F/O's. Indeed I made no mention of the quality of the training. I was merely making the point of the lack of management. I take your point that you don't go straight from circuits to being line checked. However there were delays in the schedule, presumably because the aircraft was otherwise occupied.

24th Feb 2005, 17:23
How about this as an example of bad management ?

MD arrives at 1300 everyday (he says he is not a morning person.)

MD spends next 2 hours checking his e-mails and to see when his new company car gets delivered.

MD takes away watercooler and makes everyone pay for their own bottled water in order to "illustrate cost saving measures".

MD has "business trip" (all first class) to another continent to see a major global sporting event.

I could go on..........

24th Feb 2005, 17:51
MD of which company?

24th Feb 2005, 18:20
So what you are saying is that the management are leaders, but are leading everyone out of the door!

24th Feb 2005, 18:28
What I am saying is. BMI will always lose pilots but when the managers leave in there droves well what does that say?

I could be reading into this to deeply. Nough said.

24th Feb 2005, 20:23

Wrong again! baby do cut some corners on training as part of their grand master drive costs down at all costs master double secret master plan. maybe you just needed extra!

24th Feb 2005, 20:34
No your the one thats wrong,was through first time on everything and minimum sectors,

max nightstop
24th Feb 2005, 20:58

Perhaps you could expand on your assertion that baby cut corners on training? I would be very curious to know which corners you think have been cut.

I am reassured, though, that you accept that if anyone had needed extra training, (unlike nitefighter) they would have been given it.


One moment you are repeating comments you have on "excellent authority", the next post you are agreeing that those comments are clearly factually incorrect. Then you make facile presumptions that because someone is base training, this must be the cause of all the other delays going. Err or perhaps the fact that half the country was covered in snow may have delayed some flights?

Perhaps you could read through your posts in future, before hitting the "Post" button, to see if they make any sense at all! It's not the passengers who were "sitting in ignorance" mate, it's YOU!


24th Feb 2005, 21:42
Ok guys anyone care to share .... just which manager has gone?

24th Feb 2005, 21:48
The trainers at Baby are excellent. Might be nice if they had a training meeting sometime so they sang from the same hymn sheet.

They do not cut corners but are working flat out to maintain a level of crewing.

Baby has a problem with its management...they keep leaving. One guy now basically flt ops director, chief pilot, senior training Captain and we mustn't forget chief negotiator!

The pay deal for pilots (last years) still hasn't been sorted and the guys are getting fed up and moving on (BA & Virgin seem this month's favourites).

Pilots talk about their 'escape plan' rather than the future at Baby.

24th Feb 2005, 22:20
Rubbish managers. Great pilots/trainers/cabin crew but no sort of compan to work for long-term. So maybe managers quitting is good news.

24th Feb 2005, 23:33
As usual bmi keeps everything close to its chest in the intrest of industry security sod the staff. No one knows whats going on everyone on line cares but bmi are as usual unable to comment or make any commitments.
bmi staff are told work harder as baby is doing great but mainline not very well, when NT was recently asked about the future of MAN longhaul due to the expected start up of the indian route he was quoted as saying 'bmi is commited to MAN longhaul but until the GOV make there decision we don't want to give away anything'. Give away what ask all the temp staff who dont know if they have a job in 2 weeks. This extra route requires another a/c or dropping existing routes it does not take a manager to work that out.
No wounder all the managment are leaving it hard t take seriously an airline that has no faith in its staff or vision for the future, not past tomorrow anyway, the staff have about as much faith in the D/H managment team as the D/H managment team have in us.
:{ :{ :{ :{

25th Feb 2005, 06:29
The pilots at bmi have always been unhappy.

The "illustrious" Chairman, MB, was always being quoted as saying that pilots grew on trees.....shake some if you start running short. He was also quoted as saying that they are "a bunch of moaners".

No acknowledgement, therefore, of any respect for pilots. Some would actually interpret the treatment of pilots as demonstrating something approaching hatred. I believe that to be an accurate description of the attitude.

The MB boast was that if the pilots were so unhappy, then why did'nt more of them leave.

Well, now Mikey boy, they are leaving and you're stuck with an ingrained malicious management system which you created and which may well see your little train set go off the rails.

I wonder if there's anything you can do about it.......I don't think you or your "management" have the people, or even basic management skills to begin to rescue the situation.

So, Mr MB, take your few hundred million quid (gifted from Heathrow slots and nothing else) go away (polite version) and let Dickie Branson or someone with decent management skills run the show instead. :mad:

25th Feb 2005, 09:05

Nice to see that your still as bitter and anti bmi as ever .

Having taken the time to review your postings it seems to date you have yet to post anything other than anti bmi vitriolic diatribe.

Maybe you should take some time to consider that your bitterness could be better channeled .

Please consider that your hidden agenda does nothing for your credibility within the Pilot community.

If you are so keen to work for Virgin might I suggest you review the Virgin.com website where you will find a list of current opportunities within the Virgin group im sure some of which will suitable. When your actions are those of a professional aviator you may care to make contact with Virgin at crawley until that time Virgin Trains or Virgin Mobile would seem a safer bet.

Once again please dont use pprune as a vehicle for your anti bmi feelings.
Had your posting have been made by any other forum user it would have had had credibility, sadly your previous postings have ensured that it is only viewed as the vitriolic rants of a bitter person.


25th Feb 2005, 09:22
I spent many happy years working for BMA, as it was then, and have the deepest respect for MB. He kept the Company going though thick and thin whilst others fell by the wayside.

Yes, there appears to be problems in the middle management but when hasn't there been a divide and rule policy. No company is perfect.

Believe you me there are many companies out there than treat their staff like s**t and I don't just mean the airlines.

If you don't like quietly walk away and find another job, if you can someone who will have you. I suspect the perpetual moaners may be in the unenviable situation of being in a "black hole" and unable to move on. No names!


Edited for spelling,again!

25th Feb 2005, 09:59
Maximum pete

I think your posting sums it up !

Have to admit i agree with every word!

MB has kept the company on course when others have lost the way , bmi isnt perfect but then I have yet to find any company that is ...

Remember the grass always looks greener till you have to live in that field !

As you say Uncle pete the perpetual moaners and purveyors of anti bmi vitriol are unable to move on !

Its good to see that since leaving the company you have kept your objective stance, Your missed pete, Fond memories of the F100 (Never thought I'd admitto that !)


25th Feb 2005, 10:00
Dear Maximum. I do agree with many of the points that you have raised. My concern is not just with turnover of pilots but with its turnover of management. Why did PM,DO, CW,TD JR go? and now another good bloke. Rats and sinking ships seems the obvious.

The Real Slim Shady
25th Feb 2005, 10:08
Have to agree with Pete and Airbus even tho I left BM either ' under a cloud' or 'in a blaze of glory' or ' any other epithet you can think of'

Certain 'managers' didn't hold a skill set to be effective and the effect they had on perfomance and morale was enormous.

The training staff and shopfloor staff were terrific; a better bunch of folks you couldn't wish for.

Complaining about won't change anything; if you are unhappy with things either do something about it to make a change or leave. Simple. But stop whining.

25th Feb 2005, 10:13

The reason TD left for far eastern pastures is simple .....

He was head hunted to lead the start up ... having done it for baby . CW was head hunted by TD .

If someone head hunted you and offered you the package you couldnt turn down.... YOUD BE OFF !.


25th Feb 2005, 10:13
perhaps acbus1 had an unhappy childhood, or maybe a bad experience when unloading the bags, whatever the reason his posts always have the same theme and are not to be taken seriously no matter how "entertaining" they may be. Getting back to the thread, as long as SM.B is running HIS train sets (which HE has done very successfully over many years outlasting many other airlines) bmi and all the offshoots will survive, keeeping many of us in paid employment, doubtless there will always be the unhappy few wannabes who couldn`t make the grade and now think they have an axe to grind, so to you guys I say: GROW UP,MOVE ON and GO AWAY
(again the polite version) :ok:
ps see threads about easyjet, Ryanair,Emirates,and dare I say even BA to see that the grass may not be as green as you think over there!!

25th Feb 2005, 10:44

When talking about head hunting you didn't mention JR!

If you are correct why did DO depart. Wasn't he chief training capt mainline? And PM ops director mainline. You can't tell me that they didn't know something!

max nightstop
25th Feb 2005, 16:05
Think PM wasn't ops Dir but chief pilot, didn't he get tempted to the gulf by RH?

If he knows so much about the dark future of bmi, then that can't have been him at NEMA being interviewed for the bmibaby ops dir post recently????

Managers move around airlines trying to better themselves, just like management in so many other types of companies. If you have the ambition to be a lower middle manager somewhere, then you will probably have the ambition to be an upper middle one, somewhere else, with a pay rise!

More interesting question is, if these managers are all so useless, as has been claimed; how come they keep getting offered better jobs by other airlines?


25th Feb 2005, 17:31
Jees! Some of the posters here have'nt got much room to talk about being bitter, twisted and anti bmi!

I speak from the unpleasant experience of watching some of their weak and childish antics and mind games.

They know who they are (one hopes......otherwise it's called mental illness).

Once again please dont use pprune as a vehicle for your anti bmi feelings.
I'll use PPRuNe to convey the truth as I see it in order, amongst other things, to educate the viewing public. It's called freedom of speech.

Perhaps you'd care to try stopping me.

25th Feb 2005, 18:04
The"truth" as seen through a distorted eye will always be just that !! Iwouldn`t want to stop anyone expressing an opinion (even if it is a little off the wall ) but there comes a time when the viewing public deserve better than a myopic view of a particular company given by an extremely bitter and twisted individual who really should get a life :{ :{ :{
ps mental illness is in the mind of the beholder (if you know what I mean)!!:ok:

25th Feb 2005, 19:08
I'll use PPRuNe to convey the truth as I see it in order, amongst other things, to educate the viewing public. It's called freedom of speech.

Truth as YOU see it. Says it all! Bit embarrasing really, isn't it flower?

Moving on, I think the majority of rational people within the group realise that the reason Management are leaving Baby are not remotely linked to those that left Mainline over a year ago.
People move on for there own personal reasons, including those at the top.

The new Management at the group need time. Some will allow for that and some won't and that, again, is personal choice.

25th Feb 2005, 19:14

I speak from the unpleasant experience of watching some of their weak and childish antics and mind games.

You mean the management have got the better of you hence your bitter twisted vitriol

I'll use PPRuNe to convey the truth as I see it in order, amongst other things, to educate the viewing public. It's called freedom of speech

Sadly your vision seems to be some what distorted . I fully support your right to free speech after all it costs nothing to have an opinion even if it distorted to meet your own agenda.
Sadly acbus1 you use you your own agenda in the same way a drunken man uses a lamp post ... For support rather than illumination.

Your continued vitriol only seeks to reinforce the poor opinion of you, held by your peers within the pilot community.

They know who they are
acbus1.. Im secure in the knowledge of who I am and if you were as secure you'd have the courage of your convictions to at least share your distorted short sighted opinions with me to my face if you dont feel confident enough to do this you can always call me.

Acbus1 i really dont understand why you continue this crusade of petty sniping and bitterness... As many posters have advised if your not happy walk away from it . Ill be happy to assist you in preparing a CV for a position more suited to you.

Until then you may wish to reflect on some of the comments made by other forum users who have also realised that your bitterness continues to provide demonstrative evidence of your state of being, I can only hope you do not display this behaviour onboard any aircraft . It is exactly your actions that lead management to label the pilot community in your words "Moaners".



26th Feb 2005, 12:58
Acbus1 sounds much like a previous poster who loved nothing more than to snipe at all things bma/bmi, particularly after he left. It couldn't really be the same person, could it?
Nice to see Maximum Pete giving a bit of credit to his former employer too.

The Real Slim Shady
26th Feb 2005, 13:39
AcBus 1 you need a reality check.

Some of the middle managers may, in the past, have been less competent than was desirable but on his way through the trees MB has never lost sight of the wood and kept a lot of people in jobs.

bmi has a good product, excellent staff, a young fleet - and is my carrier of preference.

Stop knocking it - if you are unhappy leave. Come and see how it's not done elsewhere then complain.

26th Feb 2005, 15:52
acbus 1,

I think you a clinging onto reality by your finger nails which you have probably nibbled down to the roots.

Freedom of speech.......I seem to remember that some of your replies to my posts doubted my sanity when I chose to stand up to you.

Antics and mindgames..... If you are whom I suspect you to be you want to spend more time on improving your chances of succeeding and less on having a go at your colleagues on this forum.


27th Feb 2005, 15:07
Even "badly done to, underpaid, undervalued,loyal, company minded fellows" like poor old acbus1 need to take a day off now and then to recharge their venom supply, guess he`s just worn out huffing and puffing all the hot air of late

mr solo
27th Feb 2005, 15:53
Come on fellas, give acbus1 a break - and lets face it, after many years of success bmi have lost the plot completely over recent times. As for long haul - bmi have left it to late, and you all know it, your operation at the moment is bit of a joke, bmi chop and change routes like theres no tommorow. Hardly a recipe for success.

As for management, acbus1 is right - you need people at the top who understand business and who can negotiate in the corporate world. ( dickie branson is a good example ).

27th Feb 2005, 16:31
I think Sir M.Bs track record , bmi`s success and continuing survival speaks for itself. Despite the best efforts of "the world`s favourite airline" over the years to stifle bmi`s growth and various locos and new start ups bringing competition to the market we are still here and, if other threads on this site are to be believed will break even this year, which by any standard is a pretty impressive turnaround in just a year. The reason acbus 1 gets so much stick is that virtually all he ever posts are bitter and vitreolic attacks on a company that he may have once worked for(although in what capacity is open to debate!), anyone who wishes for the failure of a major UK airline with the attendant job losses that would cause among his fellow aviators deserves all the put downs that this individual attracts , in fact some of the more outlandish claims would probably be worthy of some editing by our esteemed Moderators in order to restore some sensible discussion between the professionals amongst us rather than the rants and raves we have been seeing lately from the disgruntled one!!

High bmi!
27th Feb 2005, 18:02
This thread appears to have become a slanging match thanks to one poster.
I seem to remember that someone asked earlier on who'd left. Where have you been? Well one certain Base Captain. Nice chap. Liked his father too ( ducks under all the attacks ) but frankly whenever I spoke to him I felt like I was the only person in the world whose opinion counted at that moment. Nice!
Re the company. Well, I think that Sir M has told the illustrious Mr T save money at all costs barring front line staff. I've just heard that we don't have a Reservations department any more! That's why our F & F tickets were stopped.
Personally I think that the company will survive despite the predcitions of one doom merchant on this thread but things will change....that's guaranteed...always!

27th Feb 2005, 18:08
Acbus you do yourself no favours by "always" slating bmi. Try and redeem yourself.....somewhat, and say what is good about the company, cos if you dont , your posts will just be harping on about the same old moans and groans......and lets face it after a while they become boring !


mr solo
27th Feb 2005, 18:33
High bmi - I have very good friends at bmi and have flown with the airline many times and rate its service and staff highly. I have no doubt whatsoever that bmi will survive - for survival is in their nature !

But with all of bmi's experience and past success they really should be doing more than just "breaking even"

The industry has changed, for better or worse only time will tell, but one thing is certain - your competiters are leaving you standing !

28th Feb 2005, 16:29
We can't break even. It's not allowed.

1st Mar 2005, 17:59
Good News

Just heard that BMI mainline is recruiting. A320 pilots.First Officers with low experience.

1st Mar 2005, 22:51
anyone know how i get a managers job with them?

2nd Mar 2005, 10:05
pitch - the word is that the company may be looking for about 10/12 fo's, depending on the outcome of the mumbai route appeal and from what i hear some of the pilots have already been selected from baby and the others from internal recommendations.

2nd Mar 2005, 13:07
Drap air

What you need to do is apply for one of the first officer positions. Work your way up to a command, show some willing and interest and ability. Then you will be able to apply for any management jobs that come up!

If you are enquiring about non-pilot management jobs, then you are in the wrong place to such an extent that i doubt you would be suitable for a management position.


4th Mar 2005, 22:20
Drap air,to correct Krystens suggestions I would suggest (in no particular order )become a free-mason,become a BALPA CC rep,finally sh*t on your fellow pilots/ back-stab /kiss-ass, until "they" notice you;seemed to work for 90% of the pilot-management in the past, should work for you too.

Max Angle
5th Mar 2005, 12:58
Just heard that BMI mainline is recruiting. A320 pilots.First Officers with low experience. To be more accurate they have recruitED. 3 new starts I believe but most likely some more will follow as more depart to VS and BA.

Norman Stanley Fletcher
7th Mar 2005, 00:48
Krysten - I think Drap-air's question was a joke. I thought it was quite funny actually - but alas my amusement has not been shared!

7th Mar 2005, 20:16
You might be right there Norman.

8th Mar 2005, 09:10
Was the question a joke or the management at BMI?

(Sorry couldn't resist it)

You splitter
8th Mar 2005, 13:03
I don't know the situation at BMI but would like to offer a general opinion on Mangers leaving that applies to both pilot managers and non-pilot.

Bear in mind that there are several teirs of management. The guys at the top (director level) make the policy, the middle and lower management have to apply and administrate that policy. If you dont agree with that policy or find that the way you wish to manage is continously frustrated by those at the top then the only way you can be a 'good' manager is to vote with your feet and find a job somewhere else. Either that or try to make the best of a bad job. You can only work within the company culture which is usually dictated from the top.

Im not saying this is the case at BMI but just wanted to stick up for a few 'managers' out there :}

8th Mar 2005, 13:15
The trouble at BMI & BMI Baby is that they have lost directors, midlle managers and lower level management. From Austin Reid down.

Baby in particular has lots its MD, Flt Ops Director, Senior Training Captain, not to mention a large attrition rate of Captains.

9th Mar 2005, 18:28
Yes you are correct but why?

9th Mar 2005, 19:00

the reason why pilots leave bmi ( capt or fo's ) is that the other airline offers the pilot most if not everything bmi can't ( or won't ).

bmi have lost capts to BA , imagine giving up a left hand seat job to go back into the right hand seat for at least 10 years, a very hard decision to make, yet it has happened. - a clue to anyone wishing a career at bmi.

bmi have lost fo's very close to their commands to other airlines - another clue.

Why ? well - read what acbus1 posted earlier on this thread. It is all true. Dont believe all that crap about being grateful for being in a flying job ! when you are away for airports and up in the air, the job is the best.

What it is all about is - how you get treated by your employer -
that is completely different.

27th Mar 2005, 11:14
I am led to believe that we (ww) can expect a new base in Scotland. Anyone else heard this.

Artifical Horizon
27th Mar 2005, 11:44
Hello folks

I am going for an interview with BMI Baby shortly. Does anyone have any good advice for someone about to try and join the company? Do the pilots enjoy working with BMI Baby?

27th Mar 2005, 12:54
Artifical Horizon

You'll first have to attend a mini course about how to pass the interview, that'll cost you a bit.
Then go to the interview. Having paid your fees you are guaranteed to pass.
Monopoly at it's best.
You don't attend, you don't pass - simple.

27th Mar 2005, 13:23
Do you have hard evidence to suggest that there is someone taking backhanders to smooth candidates progress through the selection process?

Artifical Horizon
27th Mar 2005, 14:01
What course? Have heard nothing about such a thing anywhere!!! Does anyone know the deal with bonding for BMI Baby?

27th Mar 2005, 15:35

It is being talked about at the airline.
Yes I could name names, but hope that it will go away without me having to do this.
I think it is beyond belief that certain people are being phoned and invited to this course, knowing full well that if they attend, their chances get much stronger of getting a job.

Disgusting and unfair, not to mention downright exploitative!

30th Mar 2005, 10:13
Artificial H

The course is advertised in the LOG, if you are a BALPA member.