Trans Tasman.Who is making Money?

[TOPC]

It amuses me that every operater on the Trans Tasman route says they are losing money yet the saturation of the routes continues.
Between Qantas , Jetconnect , Air New Zealand, Freedom , Emirates , Aerolineas, Singapore etc.
Is anyone making money......?
What are the load factors like ? :confused:

[Crusty Demon]

Why do you think Singair is not moaning and groaning about entering the Tasman market like they are bleating about their rights to fly the pacific?

[Pete Conrad]

Well, if you believe those at Pac Blue, oh yes, of course, they are rolling in the cash and cleaning up on the Tasman. Reality is, they are not, and to emphasise it, they are moving most of their operations to Auckland from Christchurch and Wellington, to try and add another spin to it.

QF have the best LF's on the routes between Oz and NZ, the 767 out of CHC and AKL is always full, the Air NZ A320's are spasmodic to say the least, the Pac Blue aircraft are not near what QF and Freedom loads are and that is FACT, and Freedom, well, they do alright for themselves and good on them.

My opinion, Pac Blue were relying on the QF and AirNZ merger going through, it has not, so they are having to eat humble pie. Pac Blue want to play with the big boys, but can't offer the service, so they bleat as a result.

Prediction, I believe you will see A380's on the trans Tasman, but who will it be? Emirates or QF?

[wirgin blew]

Pete - the PB aircraft could possibly be the first in the fleet to get the Foxtel inflight entertainment which would be an added bonus straight away.
Also the tech crewand cc are kiwis so its probably not as expensive to run as VB, and may be carrying enough of Patrick's freight to cover costs.
Lastly I am amazed that anyone is making money on this route with the fares the way they are. QF have to overnight plenty of crew in Auckland so this would be an added cost for them, and I assume Emirates would be in the same boat? These extra costs on already slim pickings would probably even out the balance sheet with companies with NZ based crew.

[Pete Conrad]

wirgin, have you travelled Emirates from Sydney or Brisbane to Auckland? I have, and trust me, Pac Blues "new" Foxtell in those aeroplanes will not beat Emirates choice of over 600 movies and songs from their in-flight seat back entertainment system in cattle class. Not to mention the meals on Emirates, oh and if you also want to thow in another, the fares Emirates offer are better, oh and another, no twit Flight Attendants, the list goes on.

Add to that, Emirates Sky Cargo in NZ as well, so no, your two points of Pac Blue being on a winner are wrong.

I didn't say anyone was making a decent quid on those routes, but I get a bit fed up with the Virgin bullsh1t artists telling everyone how good they are doing, when clearly, they aint. And if they want to get serious and play with the QF's, Emirates, AirNZ's of this world, then stop squealing, stop demanding airport space wherever you go, build your own faciliities and offer a better product.

QF Jetconnect crew are NZ based, so their cost base is low as well. Pac Blue overnight people in Australia, and as far as I'm still aware, in Wellington as well.

No one is ever going to make alot of cash on the Tasman, but the smart operators, not the half baked operators will do ok.

[Don Esson]

It's difficult to know who is making money on the Tasman, as it's difficult to determine break even seat factors by route. Usually airlines publish an overall brteak-even seat factor but these are obviously available in-house.

Those who are 'pure' Tasman operators (QF, NZ, SJ, DJ) would find it more difficultb as they would have to apply full costs to their operations. The bottom feeders like Thai and Emirates may show a profit simply by seeking to recover the operational (out of pocket) costs incurred between Aus and NZ. Their real profit would be on operations between their "home base" (read UK/Europe) and Australia, and as they incur standing charges whether or not the aeroplanes, they may as well inflict some buggery into the market by 0operating end sectors and cost them marginally. Who knows what they do?

The latest numbers published by the Aus govt are for November 2003. Here is a list of declared seat factors (transit punters on Emirates, Garuda, RBA and Thai are excluded)

To Aus Ex Aus

Air NZ 71.19% 74.00%
Emirates 32.70% 35.10%
Freedom 66.00% 67.80%
Garuda 18.70% 15.80%
Pacific Blue 44.90% 51.30%
Qantas 78.40% 82.30%
Royal Brunei 28.80% 28.80%
Thai Inter 29.90% 25.30%



Aeroilineas Argentinas and Lan Chile are not shown as their data does not separte trans Tasman loads from South American loads.

(Sorry. But I have tried to format to make the data easier to read but I just can't do it - I'm not a nerd!_.

[apacau]

It´s obviously not a representation across the board, but I flew EK MEL-AKL last week and the 777-300 was full to the rafters. Also, for my long-awaited first RPT flight on EK, I was disappointed. My experience AKL-LAX on Air NZ was far, far more pleasant, despite the long flight and no personal IFE!

[Believe Brother]

apacau

As many before you have also found, the EK reality is quite different from the EK marketing. EK is simply a full service low cost carrier. Keep discovering!

[Eastwest Loco]

I have only experienced 3 rides on EK, and all in J class. One paid for, and one sort of via a managers retreat (read pissup with Boeing 777 Medivac afterward). 4 nights on Pacific Sky is baaaaaad for the liver.

Personally, I found the flights faultless apart from Rammadan induced lack of food disorientation on a SIN MEL leg, and that only applied to one side of the J Class section as the other side was operated by 2 Pommy ladies.

I found the 777 totally enjoyable and solid feeling, the catering excellent and the crew attitude generally happy and very friendly.

On some routes, they are killing a bug with a nuclear weapon using an A345 on trans Tasman, but obviously the dollars are there for cargo. It is also very nice to pull 9% commission on EK rather than 5% on NZ (a few extra bucks are picked up on flown revenue overrides, so NZ is a definite option still) and 1% (thanks for that Geoff you dropkick) on QF, and know your passenger will be treated well during their shark patrol service. Also nice to know you can book them on a big solid modern aeroplane, not a superannuated biscuit bomber from Jetconnect.

Despite selling lots of NZ over the years, I have yet to experience their service level and/or equipment. I have had no negative feedback from those that I have booked with them, apart from a brain fart when the lovely and extremely efficient Mrs Sue from Air NZ Melbourne was away on extended leave due to tragic circumstances.

The guts of this is that we have no damned idea where to turn these days, but how anyone makes money on the Tasman is a complete mystery to me. Maybe the deepest pockets will prevail. I think we know who has them too.

Best all.

EWL

[Jet Man]

Don Esson

I think Pacific Blue had very good load factors in Nov 2003 taking into account they had no aircraft at that time!

[VH-Cheer Up]

EWL

Flew NZ MEL-AKL_MEL J class in December. Picked them because their timing best suited my need to be on ground four full days and get a decent nights sleep the the evening of arrival.

Fare was significantly lower than my agent offered on QF J class and better (for me) schedule.

Equipment was a slightly tired looking 744 but everything worked, although disappointed no laptop power outlet in seat.

Return flight was best as they put us in the first class section in the nose, old P class seats and the cabin staff treated us like we'd paid for first class.

They had the first class section closed on the way to AKL, pity, they should put J class pax in there to give them a taste of the greater space and maybe they would attract more J's to upgrade to F/P in the future. Always good policy to give free upgrades when the seat is going begging, in my opinion.

VHCU

[Eastwest Loco]

Thanks VHCU for the input.

One of my staff has done an educational to WLG courtesy of NZ, and the lovely Sue Burgess (NZ MEL Sales) who would have to be the best Airline Rep I have ever encountered, and a good mate too.

My staff member was lucky enough to score J both ways, and was most impressed.

I am just sorry that we lost the NZ14/15 services SYD LAX nonstop, as that threw another viable alternative into the mix on one of the most expensive per air mile sectors we sell, particularly in J/F classes.

Best regards

EWL

[Anti Skid On]

Back to the original question - who is making money?

There was a Ralph Norris moanathon in last weeks NZ herald - apparently Emirates have eaten heavily into both ANZ's and QF's freight business, with the move to the A320 also hampering their freight loadings for ANZ. So Emirates will be happy having few PAX as it equals more freight dollars.

[The Enema Bandit]

Trans Tasman.Who is making Money? Definitley not the Jet Connect, Pacific Blue and Freedom Air pilots.

[Keg]

So Emirates will be happy having few PAX as it equals more freight dollars.


Statements such as these are a load of crap. Emirates are flying either an A340 or a 777 across the pond- neither of which would have to displace passengers in order to carry heaps of freight. That being the case, I think they'd be after every extra backside on the seat that they can! :suspect: :rolleyes:

[rescue 1]

Agreed Keg, there is a misconception that freight is a sound substitute for passengers...Not!

Enema you sum it up nicely I think...

[Don Esson]

Jet Man,

You can argue with the Australian Govt stats office if you wish but I don't, and, for better or worse, we have to believe what they publish. For Nov 2004, they reported that Pacific Blue operated 118 trips each way between Australia and NewZealand. Whose equipment was used I know not, nor do I care. Are you suggesting that the offical Aust govt data is incorrect?

Keg,

What you have written is also a variety of crap, although diluted. Operations on the Tasman would be limited by ZFW limits and as such cargo weight carried would not ordinarily be limited. BUT......there is also a limit due to volume. This means that the fewer passengers carried, there is more room available under the floor, as there would be space unoccupied by the SLF baggage. Whether they make more money from a pallet of cargo than they do about 25 punters (presumably very low yield), goodness only knows, but it would be an interesting equation. I suspect not.

[Anti Skid On]

Keg et. al. - it was not me who stated the bit about the freight issue, it was the stats quoted, something like 50% down for ANZ and 30% for QF. However you look at it, if you lost half of your freight revenue to a competitor you'd be pi55ed off. Presumably business plans factored in anticipated freight loadings. Emirates have been accused of seriously undecutting to get big contracts, and there ability to use SIN as a hub, means they have not only taken trans tasman freight, but also long haul stuff.

[Eastwest Loco]

Anti Skid

The long haul stuff is where the big dollars are - rates worked in FCU's (freight construction units) based on the US dollar as are passenger fare NUCs (neutral units of currency) also based on the USD.

If EK for instance carries a 100 kg consignment AKL DXB where it is transhipped to NBO on KQ then they receive a percentage of the overall haulage mileage proportionate directly to the mileage they flew. These are big bucks too. All are layed out clearly by IATA in a voluminous tome which used to be used to calculate the rates. I am sure it is all now computerised.

The 100% EK freight is where they could discount, but into their home market, why would they more than 10% at most as SQ is the only other carrier covering the same port pair with a one airline service? Ooops - MH can do that too, but limited and with the dangers associated in an aeroplane change en route - you know - breakfast in Auckland lunch in Singapore, dinner in Dubai - crayfish in Bangkok. That sort of thing.

Long haul = big bucks indeed, and the ability not to have to share the revenue due to an expanding market and port coverage.

Please also remember that QF and AN operated wide bodied equipment as belly load only freighters back of the clock, and may still do so. Freight pays. If you write off the rear locker of an A345 to freight, you would still have enough space for SLF bags even with a full load in the forward and bulk holds. As for bulky freight, volumetric charges are applied and you still get the revenue without the weight - win/win situation at 250kg allotted per cubic metre, even if the consignment is feathers.

That's my 2 bobs worth.

Best regards

EWL

[Jet Man]

Don Esson

Yes, if your original post is accurate I am suggesting that the official figures are incorrect. Pacific Blue was not operating in Nov 2003 - it started in Jan 2004!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually my post was a jab at your probable typo! Not to be taken too seriously.

To be honest I read an article in the paper (not official I know) that out Pacific Blue's load factors at the top (big Q second) for Sept 04. It probably varies each month as companies run special fares. It is informative to look at the passenger yield rather than load factors.

[Pete Conrad]

Jet man, sorry to rain on your Pacific Blue parade, but I can tell you that they have never, and will never carry top loads across the Tasman. I hear their loads on the radio in NZ!!

To even say that they outstrip QF and AirNZ and even EK and Freedom, is the biggest lot of Virgin b____t I've heard so far and the paper you read isn't worth wiping your bum with.

Mmmmm, not to mention Pacific Blue Yeild, 40 bums average at $179 per bum, yep, thats a winner!

[TinPusher]

The ATS providers are making a killing no matter what the load factors are like:O The only shame is that I don't get to see any of it :*

[milbud]

I'm not going to suggest that anyone is doing well on the trans tasman stuff as a whole.
But i do know that Mel - chc aint too bad for Pac blue. I only have to log in at work and look at loads for the day to know it!
And yep i've seen low days, but since christmas i've been seeing some pretty high loads too....
and have seen full loads, eg no empties on flights!

But i dare say QF and others have seen those days too on some routes.

[cnsnz]

based on the figures on the news following Ralph Norris little whinge EK load factor would be about 83% plus frieght as extra revenue.He blames EK for dumping seats but he has no problem adding capacity when new routes are opened up by other carriers or new entrants, mind you he is giving EK alot of publicity.

[kiwipilot02]

Freedom are must be struggling with what looks like an over capacity of seats at this time of the year.We have hardly had a flight leave with more than 60 punters on board for the last 6 weeks( sometimes as low as 40) and not having freight to offset this it must be hurting.Wellington-Fiji no better with loads as low as 24 somedays.

[AF1]

Pete Conrad
Dont know what your agenda is but you're full of horsesh*t
40 bums on Pacific Blue?

More like 140 on average - many flights are much closer to the 180 pax limit and have been for months.

Loads across the Tasman for Pac Blue are consistently high and increasing all the time -FACT
Pacific Blue is making fantastic headway against strong competition from ANZ and QF
Freedom can't be rated as a serious competitor - most of their loads are averaging around 40-60 punters. Bear in mind their fares generally start a bit higher than PB (closer to $220) but with almost 100 punters less on each aircraft the yield is much higher on PB
Service wise - no comparison - PB have a strong product - cheap fares, plus high service - the only thing missing is IFE but on a 2.5 hr breeze across the Tas thats not a major anyway.

So stop the begrudging ...

[Pete Conrad]

AF1, A typical example of Virgin propaganda - the loads aren't that good, so stop wasting time, 140 pax average is a load of rubbish, absolute rubbish, and if your making so much headway, why are Pac Blue pulling out of Wellington-Sydney re poor loads? FACT

If Pac Blue have a such a strong product, why then are they not full out of Christchurch? FACT, get real. Another thing, look on the net, Pac Blue are the dearest the majority of the time FACT. The list goes on and on.

You say 2.5 hour breeze across the Tasman, what? do you get excellent tailwinds going both ways at those FL400's Pac Blue fly at cause they are so light!

Why don't you speak to their ops control, they'll tell you the truth, run along now.

Does the labotomy scar heal after a while when you join Virgin?

[DJ747]

Rumour has it that PB will significantly increase operations from Auckland to OZ over the next few months. That will throw a cat among the pigeons (kiwi's).

[The Enema Bandit]

Or a wolf amongst the lambs???

[VH-Cheer Up]

AF1

Service wise - no comparison - PB have a strong product - cheap fares, plus high service

PB has "high service"? Like, what service?

Isn't PB same as VB... Pay for everything including a cupful of cold water?

VHCU

[HGW]

Pete Conrad
I love to knowwhich radio station gives out commercially sensitive info such as pax loads and do they state all carriers. If they do what do they say the other airlines are carrying, you haven't mentioned this.
I only ask because I am privy to the PB info and the figures show for the last 4 months very good load factors on all flights.
Added to this is the high connection rate of over 60% PB to VB and VB to PB which is nearly double Ansetts rate of around 32%.
Also the yield is determined by the cost which PB is lower than VB by virtue of NZ wage rates, crew compliment, etc. Don't fprget it is basically a medium halul domestic flight with lower terminal costs as the chardes are for only rated to the time used in coomon user terminals such as SYD i.e nothing like the $50+mil charges for SYD domestic.
The only thing I agree with is the dropping of WLG - stupid based on load factors and connector numbers.

[Alien Sex God]

Don't you have to give the pob to the tower in sheep shagger territry?

[rescue 1]

HGW - In NZ the PIC is required to advise ground and TWR POB.
I imagine therefore, if you worked there, it would be fairly easy to gauge the pax loads of other carriers including EK; albeit without any consistency.

[Anti Skid On]

Nice first post ASG - good to see you are allegedly publicly spirited (from your profile). Good luck with your T5 role.

[HGW]

Thanks all
I stand corrected on the radio station. By way of being the tower it would be impossible would it not for an individual to hear every call at evey port (WLG & CHC at least) on every day which is what you would have to do to quote the figures Pete does.
With good on carriage figures PB just has to break even to be viable something EK, SJ, etc do not have. Even codeshares make very little money and can cost in disrupts. You have to look at the whole picture. Something GD is looking at and that's why he is CEO of QF and not Pete.

[Alien Sex God]

Anti Skid On thanks. Jeff Tracy is a good bloke to work for. He looks after the staff and pays above award wages and therefore gets better productivity out of us. Best of all, he doesn't make you pay for endorsments.
Pete. I once wanted to apply for GD's job to. Where did you get the application form from? They wouldn't send me one out.

[rescue 1]

Correct HGW - and I'm pleased GD is heading up QF and not Pete C too...

[Pete Conrad]

Well, facts are facts hey girls? Brainwashing is what Virgins renowned for.

[milbud]

I would love to know where the info regarding PB pulling out of SYD - WLG is coming from?
Along with the reported awful loads, because the poor loads sure aren't MEL - CHC.

And as regards the brainwashing, i'm sure not blind to faults in the VB / PB product, but i do see a deep hatred of VB coming through in this and other threads i've read from at least one individual!

Does anyone know what sort of a/c QF are operating from SYD and BNE to NZ?
Lately i've seen a mix operating from MEL, so some days must have good loads to warrant the larger a/c.

[Pete Conrad]

milbud

In answer to your first question - from Pac Blue ops staff!

In answer to your last, B747, B767 and B737 (operated by Qantas Jetconnect) from BNE and MEL and WLG to SYD, MEL and BNE.

QF carry good loads every day to NZ milbud, and as for your comment about hatred of VB, well I'm sorry, but, yes, and I aint alone in that, so deal with it.

HGW, fact is and I'm sorry to hurt you, but PB do NO better than anyone else across the Tasman, they do worse in fact. They are not the saviours of the Tasman and they do not make money on it. They offer less service than the others and yet they charge the same fare, in alot of cases MORE.

Rumour has it BG may be getting the sack soon, so the outfit may become less of a PR crap machine and more of a consolidated airline.

[HGW]

Pete, how can you possibly know every airlines daily pax figures and from two different countries. I didn't say the others were doing worse than PB and in fact I agree with you on that they are all doing the same.
The big difference is that QF and VB would be doing the best of all with the on carriage and PB has a far lower cost base with lower numbers required to break even. That is fact and you know it.
I am not hurt mate, I don't work for either VB or PB I just don't like unsubstantiated statements like you make. Geez, the only one brainwashed here is you with your blind hatred for VB/PB.
No doubt you will reply with some personal abuse or will you surprise us all with some actual facts instead of biased opinions.

[milbud]

Thanks for the QF a/c info Pete C,
but you may need to cross examine your pac blue ops people giving you dugg gen.

I won't speak for all there routes into and out of NZ but MEL - CHC is very much healthier than the 40 you mentioned on Page 2 of the thread, assuming that was what you were inferring by the 40 bums at $179- statement.

As for "dealing with it" when it comes to VB/PB hatred! it aint my problem. Plenty of people hate each of the airlines, different strokes for different folks. Seems that sufficient like the product to make it viable to now introduce further services.

And it would be very hard for them to just "sack" Brett Godfrey, no single shareholder has sufficient hold to do it! and the move too risky with the Virgin branding being so tightly controlled by BG's best mate Sir Richard!

Just with the 737 services operated i think you said by jetconnect? Are they actually Qantas, like the PB/VB situation or a contracted company just flying Qantas branded a/c?

[Pete Conrad]

HGW, abuse no, exasperation at the likes of you thats all, your not understanding the gist of what I was on about, if you look back at the previous posts on this thread, you will see that the main gripe I have with them is their flagrant sugarcoating of their operation and being honest, it p!sses alot of people off, especially when they roll up to the likes of AKL airport authorities demanding terminal space and a free ride all in the supposed name of competition with a product that can't match it with the rest!!

Unsubstantiated comments about PB, well, no, I happen to hear a great proportion of their loads when I go to work, and by talking to people around the network,so please understand that what I say in that regard is not fiction. PB can have a low cost base, but it doesn't mean they are making money HGW, they don't offer a better product or a cheaper fare than that of QF, EK, SJ, Air NZ, TG, RB so why should people fly with them?

If you want to sit here and continue to pick my posts to peices, do that, all I'm putting here is what is happening and what is said by reliable sources, deny it, dispute it, sh!tcan it, do whatever, but there would be allot that would agree with what I'm saying, and while it's ok for people to commence threads sh!tcanning QF, the slightest bit of anti-Virgin comment on this board brings out the screaming skulls.

How about we wait and see in 12 months time what the washup of the Tasman will be? I'm sure there will be some interesting initiatives from QF and AirNZ coming.

milbud, QF Jetconnect is a 100% wholly owned subsidiary of QF operating 737-300's domestically within NZ and between WLG to SYD, MEL and BNE and from CHC to BNE and MEL, and milbud, they arent adding services, they are simply shifting operations to AKL after reducing services in both WLG and CHC. Another attempt by the Virgins to bullsh!t to the public. Keep it real.

[burty]

Loads for Pacific Blue out of Wellington are just fine. More than anyone else is taking out of there. Yield? well that is the big question.

[HGW]

Pete, the only one pissed off is you. By the way, where do you work to get the "figures" you quote. I,m sorry, I just realised you haven't quoted any just opinion.
117 out of 151 load on to VB are good on carriage numbers. Keep the emotion out of your posts and people will beieve what you have to say. Your whole argument is based on your opinion of the product and hear say for the pax loads. If it was that bad no one would fly them don't you agree.

[milbud]

Pete C I am all in favour of keeping it "real". So what I ask is that you state exactly what routes they have cut in order to only be shifting ops to AKL. As yet not a single route has been published as being axed. In the case of MEL - CHC there is to be an increase!

Lets be honest, no airline in this country is transparent with their operations, it doesn't make good corporate sense to openly allow your competitors to see what you are really up to.

Strange that you should feel this site to be so anti QF, i actually see it as quite anti Virgin. Though I don't tend to take much notice of peoples personal feelings toward an airline. I look for routing info and ops info.

Still, i see no need for any of us to get so eaten up by any airline, the ones here in Oz are pretty much here for the long haul ( i don't mean overseas ops by that either).

With time people will doubtless settle into their preferences and do far more of what is becoming more and more common. Letting the Dollar cost of the fare make up their mind as to who they fly. Seems to be an enormous number of QF Club tags on VB baggage, and know from my best mate that QF see a lot of VB name tags on QF baggage. I don't think people are quite as faithfull as they used to be, cost is becoming more important to both leisure and corporate travellers alike it would seem.

[BigWaz]

As Far as Brisbane is concerned, Emirates is doing quite well especially considering Feb-Mar is quiet time for travel. The BNE-AKL flights have been averaging 190-240 local joining passengers, sometimes even more. Quite a few flights in the last month have been oversold in Y class, averaging 10-30 Y-J upgrades.

Pacific Blue is also doing ok, with guest loads rarely dropping below 100. BNE-CHC averages 115 per day, and BNE-WLG averages 140 guests per flight. Guest numbers from NZ are slightly higher. They arent extraordinary loads, but considering Freedom Air averages 30 passengers per flight between BNE-CHC I think its pretty good.

Some days SJ has four flights departing in the afternoon and DJ has two flights departing at the same time. When this occurs the 4 SJ flights struggle to get 200 passengers total, at the same time 2 DJ flights always have more joining guests. Im not sure how Freedom will cope when DJ heads to AKL..........Interesting times ahead.

[Pete Conrad]

HGW, there is no "emotion" in my posts,just apathy and tiredness of an airline sugarcoating, so stop arguing sumantics. If you are so "hungup" on facts, ring Pac Blue ops, they may tell you, in the meantime, I couldn't care, I have better things to do than keep going round in circles with you, I know what I see and what I hear, and a flash week for Pac Blue doesn't mean they consistently carry an average load of 100 as people infer. My argument is not based on MY opinion HGW, it's based on what I see and what I hear, so just accept it. Like I said, there are plenty that agree with what I've said.

I don't agree that if it was that bad, no one would fly with them. People have no loyalty and they get sucked in by the VB image. They beleive they are getting a good deal on VB. There are also a fare share that do fly VB that have a bad experience that don't fly with them again, all I'm saying, is why would you pay the same fare, if not more than QF or whoever, then have to buy your own food, put up with in-flight antics that just annoy over getting a meal, bottle of wine and inflight entertainment and cabin crew that respect your space?

milbud,so whats your argument? Your not saying anything new? Wait and see re the dropping of routes and come back to me later.

[HGW]

Pete, old buddy. if you don't want to go around in circles with me then answer some of my questions and substantiate your claims.
What is your opinion of millbud's figures for SJ. Are they bad, good or just a weeks worth so don't count like PB. I am sorry about being hung up on the facts as that is the basis of my argument with you. You don't quote facts only hearsay and whether the product is any good is irrelevant. You stated PB are carrying no pax which is crap. My figures aren't from PB Ops but from the agency that collects the taxes on behalf of the govt. With your figures PB must be telling fibs about their pax loads and pay more tax than they need to.
It's not sugarcoating it's called marketing and it seems to work.
Boy, this discussion is getting easier as we go along and whats a "sumantic".

[DJ737]

As yet not a single route has been published as being axed.

Actually Melbourne-Port Vila is getting the chop from May and being replaced with increased frequencies to Vila ex BNE.

Also adding SYD-NAN & highly likely SYD-VLI as well, much to the disgust of the overstaffed & overpriced Air Vanuatu.

DJ737
The Roo Rooter :E :ok:

[milbud]

Hi DJ737, ta for the info, but as yet i have seen nothing put to press re the chop of Mel -Vli. Not shocked by it, but haven't seen it as yet.

Sorry Pete but you haven't convinced me of anything, you have made a wide sweeping statement and have now backed out of backing it up with solid fact or info.

My argument, is that "I'" am not interested in who likes what or who. My interest is in what is happening to aviation locally with regard to routes.

Facts and evidence of what is going on and having it backed up with proof, even if only by statements from those within a company involved are what is important to me.

[Pete Conrad]

Well HGW, the argument is getting easier as you have done nothing to convince me as to what I hear is actually wrong. All you state is PB carry good loads as a broadside to try dispute what I say , you don't actually quantify your "facts". If you work in a tax collection agency, how bout you publish some figures and tell us all how well PB are going? I know what I hear on the ATC frequencies in NZ so please do not call me a liar or say that my claims are unsubstantiated, and i'm certainly not backing out of what I have heard.

milbud didn't comment on SJ, and given that they have alot more flights than PB, then it stands that pax loads may be spread out over more flights.

2 767's and a 747 from QF went out with 85-90% LF's to SYD recently, and again a few days later, and a few days later again! PB had less than 50%. So there's a fact for you. How bout you quote us some PB versus QF, AirNZ figures seeing you sit in an office and you have alot of time on your hands?


milbud, if you want the facts then go to a website and find them, or better still, you sound like an aeroplane nerd, so bring your scanner over to Christchurch and camp near the airport and listen out if you are really that desperate to find out PB loads. You never know, if you bring your boyfriend HGW, you may be able to have a romantic moment comparing aviation notes. I have told you and HGW where I have my information from no less than 5 times, and as of yet, I have heard no solid facts from either of you to dispute what I have heard as fact! HGW, give me a weeks worth of numbers to show that PB are doing better than QF, AirNZ, EK, SJ and I'll shut up, till then top wasting time!

[piontyendforward]

Pacific Blue to halve number of flights from Wgtn
12 February 2005
By ROELAND VAN DEN BERGH

Budget airline Pacific Blue will more than halve the number of flights out of Wellington and send the planes to Auckland instead.


The Christchurch-based airline will start flying from Auckland on May 12 with services to Brisbane and the Gold Coast.

The move comes at the expense of the five times a week Wellington to Sydney service which will be axed, though there will be an additional service to Brisbane taking it to three times a week.

Wellington's services were being sacrificed because the airlines' three Boeing 737-800 aircraft could be more profitably used on other routes, chief executive Tony Marks said.

He denied that the airline was not selling enough tickets in Wellington.

The airline had done "reasonably well" on the Sydney run and the Brisbane service was the airline's best performer.

The new schedule would run from May to October, at which point "Wellington would be on the map again", Mr Marks said.

Christchurch would also lose one of its seven flights a week to Sydney in the shake-up.

Plans to fly domestically also appear to have been put on the backburner.

Pacific Blue would instead concentrate on its trans-Tasman and Pacific Island network, Mr Marks said.

Competition on the Tasman looks set to increase over the next two years, with speculation that Qantas' Australian domestic budget offshoot Jetstar was preparing to spread its wings to New Zealand.

Jetstar said it would consider international services in 2007.

Meanwhile rival Freedom Air yesterday made its inaugural flight from Wellington to Fiji.

[HGW]

Pete, I have just worked you out. You are a plane spotter listening to a scanner in CHC and thats where you get your figures from. You can not be a pilot as you debate like a child having a tantrum.
As I said before, and you have proved me right again, that you would attack me and others personaly when we dare to dispute your figures or opinion. I am the same as you stating figures with no official quantification as I can not publish ATO documents.
My argument with you is that you can not state the loads for the whole network by listening to a radio, scanner or whatever in one port i.e. CHC.
Again, you will not acknowledge the benefit of on carriage to VB or even QF. Cut the personal crap and debate with sense not "your boyfriend" crap.
Invariably, people use personal attacks when they are losing an argument or it is being questioned. We will just have to wait and see won't we.

[TOPC]

When does Jet* start operating Trans Tasman ?

[2dotsright]

About the freight

40 tonnes on a 777 from AKL to MEL and onwards, and that happens regularly, the pax are a bit of a bonus on the top then

Boy those BIG Kiwis and Islander rugby types love the extra room on those EK 777's, not to mention the free feed and booze
And the QF boys get very p----ed off when EK passes them half way across the Tasman ha ha ha ha ha h!!! Doesn't get much better than that
oh by the way, has anyone seen the new 1st class lounge EK has built in AKL, can't be doin too badly hey ???

[Alien Sex God]

How do you know they get pissed off? Please explain.

[Believe Brother]

2dots, 40 tonnes of freight plus pax regularly AKL-MEL? You must fly a different 777 from me! Yep, the freight is good, but let's not exagerate too much. I don't doubt you have carried 40t, but it is not a regular thing. With current cost indices on EK 773's, at econ cruise, we travel at about .825 to .83. (And being good company men, we fly econ now don't we)! You aren't going to pass too many 747's at that speed. And before you get too carried away with room down the back, EK has 10 abreast seating in 777 economy, which is different from most other 777 operators, who configure 9 abreast. Have a look around the terminal at AKL next time, and you will see that not every trans-tasman flight is a 737 or 320. I'm not a QF or NZ sympathiser. It's just EK hypes themselves up enough without us helping them.

Good point too Alien. And 2 dots, remember that the 737 you passed will probably land ahead of you anyway, as he can track via Essendon to right base 34, a procedure we are not allowed to do in EK, due to some of our megastars being unable to get a 777 through it. Hence, we\'re off setting up for a GPS or VORDME while that 737 is on short final!

[2dotsright]

Alien Sex God, Just kidding about the pissed off thing,
I actually have some good photos of the 76 of yours as we pass on the way (sometimes) A blokes gotta have some fun.. I'm new at this prune thingy and thought I'd try to stir up some action and guess what , IT WORKS ha ha ha ha!! Happy landings Amigo.... I really don't give a S--T who gets there 1st..

Hey Believe Brother, WHAT\'S ECON CRUISE (HA HA HA HA)
Don\'t use that very often
AND they\'re using 76\'s across there , NOT 74\'s
Be daring and do a \'visual\' onto 34, it is possible without having a cuppa with the boys, NOT yet anyway..

[Believe Brother]

2 dots, I think you'll find there is at least one 747 a day QF AKL - MEL. And not sure how long you have been in EK, but if you deliberately go breaking EK sop's, it will catch up with you. Not saying I agree with the 34 vis ban - it is a sad reflection on the standards of some of our colleagues - but read the FOM and the Notam re this, and you will find you are clearly busting company rules doing that approach.

[donpizmeov]

Think you might be in need of a holiday Two dots.
Don

[Pimp Daddy]

I think you'll find there is at least one 747 a day QF AKL - MEL
Nope, QF do 2 flights a day MEL-AKL and vice versa, both 767.

Air NZ do 3 , 2 Deathstars and 744 middle of the day more often than not.

[2dotsright]

Thanks"Pimp Daddy" I rest my case...about the 76's

And Believe Bros. If you read what I wrote, I said a "visual appr" onto 34, NOT that funny one with the 'visual segment' after the EN bit......

Hey I've been on holidays for years, who needs one now...

[Believe Brother]

2 dots, guess you have been on holidays for years. Have a read of Chap 15 of the FOM some time about visual approaches. You are breaking EK SOPs!

[TOPC]

There are a couple of Emirates A340s depart AKL on a daily basis.
If the 777 services AUS , Where do the 340s go to ?

[Believe Brother]

EK 412/413 is the Airbus 340-500 that does SYD-AKL-SYD. EK 404/405 is a 777 doing MEL-AKL-MEL. EK 432/433 is a 777 doing BNE-AKL-BNE. From 1 May, the 412/413 becomes a 777 also, and I think it will be a 773 ER. So, just the one 'bus a day, if it is serviceable :)

[VH-Cheer Up]

If the 777 services AUS , Where do the 340s go to ?

Off for maintenance, if you can believe our brother...

[milbud]

It is sad that you have had to resort to Personal abuse Pete Conrad, otherwise this could have been an interesting thread!
Plane nerd? Yeah I guess I am, I suppose that is why I work for an airline, so I get my figures from calling them up on the computer at work whenever I need to.:ok:

However I respect your right to hold an opinion different to mine, bearing in mind that "slagging off" cheapens the argument somewhat.

Enjoy your day mate, I know I will.
:D

[Pete Conrad]

milbud,it took you 5 weeks to reply to something that was dead and buried. You need to let go little man.

Run along and play flightsim nerd.

[Borneo Wild Man]

So Pete-how many times you flown the Tasman(up front-that is)?
From your name/address- re Skylab .Does that mean your a
SPACE CADET.
You know what they say-"those in glass houses................:'ok:

[HANOI]

Pete Conrad

I Knew Pete Conrad when he was a Vice-President at McDonnell-Douglas . They were trying to flog DC10-30s to Pixie . I don't know what his family would think of you using his name , but I can assure you that you are no 'Pete Conrad'

[jokova]

Pete Conrad[B]

Knew Pete Conrad, Hanoi? In what sense? And do you know of his motor-biking demise? Maybe some fragments of that extraordinary character's story are somewhere on the web.

Here, here, what's been posted about unsavory people's propensity to slag off, flying off pathetically with their trite derogatory remarks. Where can you get an abuse filter to go with your crap detector?

Dispatch the sods to a place where, as my rosy-cheeked grandmama would say, prostitution prospers and buggery is a byword.

[Pete Conrad]

Get a life, the lot of you.

[2dotsright]

Hey, 'believe brother', I can't let you get away with this so at the risk of boring anyone else on this subject here goes.
I'd have left it alone but you have chosen to use this public and anonymous forum to say that I don't know what I'm doing or talking about and you are WRONG 'brother'
Since you have taken to quoting EK SOP's then I suggest that you have a good read of them first. If you go to your Ch 15 section 10,55 you'll see that a visual approach is ok. "if it becomes more efficient to continue with the vis appr rather than the full inst procedure" ie. the VOR appr onto 34 MEL. If you have trouble understanding this then I suggest that you present yourself to the EK training department for some more training maybe or an explanation of the visual appr procedure. I won't have to have a cuppa with anyone my friend as I operate completely within the SOP guidelines. Get a life and don't bother replying to this cos I rest my case and won't bother wasting any more of my time on you. You should be studying by the sound of it anyway

[Believe Brother]

2 dots, CH 15.10.5.5, paras 1 and 2. With people like you in EK, no wonder management do what they like with our contracts. See ya.

[HANOI]

Jokava

During a course at the McDonnell-Douglas facility at Long Beach in '81 the real Pete Conrad took our group to a dinner at the Long Beach Yacht Club . Of the 20,000 MD employees only two were members , Conrad and an old welder from the early days. A hard-nosed business man but with an amazing history , a marvellous night with many great stories.
On another occasion Conrad was in 'Port Morbid' to lend MDC Vice-Presidential weight to the DC-10 sale to Pixie effort . At one stage he sighted John Close's Tiger Moth (P2-JCT ?) outside the South Pacific Aero Club and his eyes lit up. " Man , I'd love to get in that" . Hasty arrangements were made which resulted in Pete getting himself airborne in the infernal machine. Here was the third man to walk on the moon loose in John's Tiger and loving every minute. At that point two worried accompanying Managers/Minders up at ANG House , overlooking Jackson's Field , asked where the hell was Conrad . Gleefully we pointed to the little yellow dot in the sky . The colour drained from their faces , " My God , get him down , McDonnell-Douglas has insured him for millions ".
Sadly Pete was killed in a Motor-cycle accident in California in 1999.

[VH-Cheer Up]

...the DC-10 sale to Pixie effort
Pixie?

[Updraft]

"Pixie" = PX= Air Niugini.

[jokova]

What Hanoi says about Pete Conrad strapping on John Close's Tigershmitt at POM, calls to mind another revered Yank's comment when he was at Mascot, having flown in in his Boeing 247 (1934 Mildenhall-Melbourne Air Race). "Colonel" Roscoe Turner stared bewildered at the WASP Airways General Aircraft Monospar with it's two tiny Pobjoy Niagara radials - "Whaat the heck DO YOU CALL those WRISTWATCH ENGINES!!!"
(Bob Hoover's "Forever Flying" contains other amusing references to Turner and in particular a bit about his pet lion 'Gilmore' that flew everywhere with him.)