Precision aerial crane work using mirrors

[kissmysquirrel]

got word of a job in scotland looking for a skilled pilot for precision aerial crane work using mirrors.
based in the Highlands of Scotland near Inverness and operates AS350B2 helicopters. The company specialises in precision aerial crane work and requires a highly motivated and skilled pilot.

The successful applicant will be required to take a proactive role in the operations of the company. Salary negotiable. Permanent contract.

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS.
2500 hours rotary
1500 hours PIC
Experienced in precision aerial crane work using mirrors
CPL(H)
Class 1 Medical

I'm not applying for the above job but just wondered if anyone has done mirror work, what are the things to watch for and pitfalls/mistakes which could be made etc?

[407 Driver]

The biggest question is ...WHY ?

A B2 is easy to VR out of, and I'd bet that any VR pilot could do a faster, safer, and more accurate job than any mirror....of course, that's only my opinion.

[SASless]

407,

I had that very argument last week with an Austrian EMS/Mountain Rescue pilot.....and he in no uncertain terms defended the mirror as the right way to do "Short Haulling". I suggested the bubble window and eyeball methos worked a charm too but he would not even consider it.

He did say they use a remote controlled mirror and maintained radio contact with the meat on the string for verbal assistance.

Having done VR as we do it in this part of the world....I lean towards that as being the easier way by far.

But....then our friends from across the saltwater divide have been known to make things difficult. But that being said....if it works for them.....fair dinkum!

[407 Driver]

If I tried to use a Mirror with my Parks Canada Mtn Rescue crews, they'd beat me senseless with an Ice Axe or pair of Crampons :p

[Lama Bear]

Mirrors? Yeh, right! That's why all the big-time logging pilots use them. More flight time less turns.

[Phoenix Rising]

Ask PACO about this position, he has an intimate knowledge of its requirements :E :E

PR

[Granny]

407 Driver is spot on
The long and short of it is, pilots attemp to use mirrors simply because they cant fly a line whilst do VR. They wander sideways everytime they leanover. Using mirrors is a rediculous concept ,I will never forget the Longranger downtown KL (Malaysia) a few years back attemping to set the top cone on a tower using mirrors, turned very nasty.

[Dynamic Component]

Mirror Mirror on the wall..........:}
To those who VR from any AS350 without the floor window in, what can I say- except that you must all be 7ft+:E
I use the mirrors, and they seem to work pretty well.Always use ground crew with 2 way Comms.
And yes I can also fly VR, but just not in the 350.

[407 Driver]

I hope everyone is sitting down, as I'm going to say something nice about 350's ....

I found them to be great longline aircraft, and no sweat at a mere 5'9" tall with the PacMan window or not. The trick is to go big, don't even attempt a 50' line, go 100', or better yet, 150'.

With the floor window, you may not see the load in flight, so fly the line, and as you reduce speed on short final, voila, a load appears in your field of view, just where it's supposed to be.

[Bomber ARIS]

SHORT line=mirrors

LONG line=VR

There are plenty of tales of VR guys screwing up jobs that are simply, and more efficiently, done with a short line and mirror - offshore/ship work being a case in point.

[paco]

That company's reaction to longline work is:

"We've never done it, because there's no requirement"

yet they're 30 feet over a salmon tank, stressing the fish with the downwash, and if the engine quit they'd hit the side of the tank with no chance of getting clear, so it's mirrors, in the good traditional way! Or they're dumping concrete at the bottom of a cell tower with the top of the aerial about 4 feet away from you!

I've always used short or longline according to circumstances, but I wouldn't dismiss either out of hand.

Yes, I know the requirements - pm me for details

How are you PR?

Phil

[tecpilot]

He did say they use a remote controlled mirror and maintained radio contact with the meat on the string for verbal assistance. But....then our friends from across the saltwater divide have been known to make things difficult. More flight time less turns.

I see there are a lot of concrete opinions.

At first, i'm prefering mirrors.
Germany, Austria and Switzerland seems to me could count as one of the leading airrescue and sling load countries worldwide, compared to the number of helicopters doing it, territory and inhabitants.The longline companies from this countries have the best reputation in the world (heliswiss is going at the moment to hongkong, ordered to slingload amazing construction parts) and a really longtime experience. All companies using mirrors!

Ok, they are using mirrors only to earn more money because they need more flight time while competing with our US friends :) !

I'm not interested in discussions with Sassie about radiolinks to rescuers. Such threads we have seen here. Ok, it's only meat to him on the end of the string. "We have done it without radios 30 years ago and it works up to today!" Flight safety is really different to him, GOM, EMS and shorthaul.

I've longline experience on 9 different types of helicopters, some days i have done more than 300 slingload rotations.
On the most helicopters (incl. AS 350) the pilot isn't able to see the load and the hook all time during the mission, leaning out of the door.

Bending out of the opened door a whole day long, may be in the cold middle european winter, is really comfortable and healthy :) .

The movable, heated and sometimes bended mirrors gives a good image (on some mirrors larged) to the pilot.

To have mirrors doesn't mean to forget VR. The pilot could use both methods and choose the best in one moment.

Bending out of the door makes it difficult to read the important instruments, like torque, N1, TOT, weight,... the view angle between mirror(s) and instruments is much better as turning your head alltimes 180°. There are not so much helicopters with side instruments. A caution light couldn't spotted hanging out of the door.

[SASless]

Some very definite but opposing views on this.....;)

Having stirred up a hornet's nest....think I will toddle off for a cold adult malt beverage.


Is this another one of those topics where we tend to over generalize.

Is not the splendid work the Alpine Rescue guys do in their special circumtstances not a bit different than Bubba and Earl doing their heli-logging....or doing a shipboard vertrep evolution....or slinging Christmas trees.....or haulling fish. Mirrors work, radio comms is great, doing it alone with VR works, short line...longline....is there not a place for it all?

Leaning over all day is certainly hard on your back and neck....ask any longline pilot who has done it for many years.

The interesting fact to me is the Canadian/American use of VR and radio to do the exact same "short haul" rescue work the European operators do with mirrors and radio. Two very different approaches to the same work.

[407 Driver]

It's all in how you were trained and what you are used to using.

I clip on a minimum of 100' for almost any job. Just easier for me, gets the aircraft out of the ground clutter, minimizes rotorwash in the work area, and gets my blades away from harm. I feel that I operate much faster too....as that is what I'm used to.

Tec, we have outside guages, on the 212 we have actual guages and lights in the VR door, on the 407 we have a bright "Check Instrument" light directly in my field of view. The light IS visible, and bright enough to see in direct sunlight.

Best of luck with the Mirrors, I personally can't see how one could be efficient or quick with that system.

[WASALOADIE]

Better still, use a cewman!

[SASless]

Loadie dear chap....using a crewman would put one into the Poor House if you are doing serious production longline work. Nothing beats looking down and seeing what the load is doing....one flys the load....not the aircraft. Bush pilots are an independent lot by nauture...thus we kinda like doing our own thing. (No snide comments from the peanut gallery either.....particularly from The Rotor Dog!)

[tecpilot]

407 Driver

why do you think, VR is faster than mirrors? Have you ever seen the longliners with mirrors and i'm not talking about the special single load missions. A lot of rotations, self hooking into the load on some missions!!! Hauling concrete in high altitude,...
Nice to you, if you have side instruments. How much a/c have it doing longline?

Important as said by some guys is the length of the line, depends on the kind of the mission of course. But don't tell me you are quicker with a longline than with short string or direct connected loads!

Crewman? Hmmm, takes payload, get money and is mostly only a verbal interface with failrisk and misunderstandings! Better the pilot is able to see what's going on direct. But on some single special missions it could be good.

[407 Driver]

Tec, Fact is...I am quicker with a line than on the belly, it's all in what you are used to. If you're better at Mirrors, then stick to Mirrors.
You can't posibly say a load flies faster on a belly than the same load would fly on a line? Face it, it's the same load we're talking about.
It's not about the line, there's virtually no air resistance from a 100' of 7/16" cable, it's the load aerodynamics that would limit your speed. I'm safer on the top end of a line, if anything were to blow out of a cargo net, say a tarp or sleeping bag or plywood, ....whack, you may have hit your T/R on it, not me, I'm 100' above any "mistakes" the ground crew would have made.

If you're into mountain flying, placing your "Belly hooked" load may have your aircraft down below the demarcation line on a ridge, or in some turbulent air behind a structure..... not me, My 100' line has my aircraft up in the good clean upflowing air....even at 10,000 + ft, I'm still on the line, ...just easier !

As I said earlier, to each his own, no-one is going to win this argument. If it works for you , great, but believe me, Mirrors will not be used in any production work in North America anytime soon.

[tecpilot]

407 dr

You are safer on a longline, absolutely right! But:

1. It's much more difficult to place a load exactly on a longer line, than on short line. Try a bullseye from 10m and from 50m!
2. On a longer line you need a more sophisticated approach, a belly load could handled nearly as the helicopter alone.
3. Bad approaches ends in great and delayed movements of the load, tricky to stop with longlines. Same to movements of "self-flying loads" on longlines.
4. Difficult to the pilot to estimate the height of the load above ground or obstacles with longer lines by himself. Only sometimes he get a little info by the shadow of the load.

But to stop the fruitless discussion, i'm shure we are both know what we have to do while slingloading. Interesting is, with:If it works for you , great, but believe me, Mirrors will not be used in any production work in North America anytime soon. we have some deep differencies between Europe and US. Question is WHY?

[Capn Notarious]

These mirrors, are they aligned so that their vision point is the end of the line.
Woss wrong with a little video camera coupled to a screen on the dashboard. Would such an instillation upset certification?

I should have typed console. But it seems that some of the helicopter pilots are treated not much better than white van drivers; who have odd sandwhiches / newspapers and the like on their dashboards.
Back to the serious stuff. When long lining how does the pilot know if the load is starting to swing?

[HughMartin]

Hello Capn Notarious,

I've trialled a video camera & screen and it doesn't work. You need 3D vision.

Most of the underslinging I have done has been with a crewman in the back, both long line and short line (AS332L). We eventually justified getting a bubble door which made all the difference. We were no more accurate than flying the load blind but we were much quicker. Still prefer to have a crewman in the back as an extra pair of eyes which have better all round vision below the aircraft.

I can well understand why the full time underslingers prefer direct vision rather than mirrors but I have seen some very good mirror pilots.

[Capn Notarious]

Thank you kindly HM.

[md902man]

Never done the sling load thing. Anywhere do training for it in UK?

[407 Driver]

Tec, I'm not sure of your experience level, or if you've ever been in North America, but you may not realize just how much of this VR work goes on over here.
On any given Summer day, I can easily spend a 9 hour day on a 150' line. It becomes second nature if you do enough of it....others I know LIVE at the top end of a line, think of 500 + hours a year doing just that...nothing else.

Believe me, I can hit a spot consistantly, and fast, because I HAVE TO. If I don't or can't, my competitor can.

One job last year had 100 - 1,500 Lb loads in to a jobsite, all on a 150' line, and on an 8 minute turn-around, rain, fog, snow, whatever. the site was deep in the trees, and we actually stacked (lumber) loads on top of loads, no room otherwise.

What I do in general charter is NOTHING compared to Seismic and Logging pilots. A good logger will do 2-3 minute turns all day on the end of a 200+ ft line, ...10 hours a day.

[Rotorbee]

(heliswiss is going at the moment to hongkong, ordered to slingload amazing construction parts)
Ehem, tecpilot.
Look at Kamov HB-XKE, it has a huge bubble window on the left side. Below it, they have a little instrument panel for TQ and so on. They fly VR AND use the mirrors. Whatever works best in that particular moment.
I made the experience that old pilots rather use mirrors and young pilot VR.
What I do not understand is, that you can convert the AS350 to be flown from the left side with a bubble window. But have only seen one of them in Alaska. Never in Europe. Where is the problem?

[tecpilot]

RotorbeeLook at Kamov HB-XKE, it has a huge bubble window on the left side. Below it, they have a little instrument panel for TQ and so on. They fly VR AND use the mirrors. Whatever works best in that particular moment.

seems to me as the same i wrote on the first part of this thread.

To have mirrors doesn't mean to forget VR. The pilot could use both methods and choose the best in one moment.
... There are not so much helicopters with side instruments....

A AS 350 to be flown from the left side is an optional kit (incl. 1 additional seatplace in front) from EC. The number of AS 350 with this kit is limited, mostly used by tour operators. But there is also a bubble door on the right side of the a/c available.

[Granny]

When Longlining how does the pilot know when the load starts to swing?
Put your bloody head out the door! thats why its called Vertical Reference!!:=

[ground effect]

great info regarding the pros and cons of slinging loads keep posting its all very educational........and more photos/video....

whats the craziest thing you have ever lifted?? and where to...

[Rotorbee]

When Longlining how does the pilot know when the load starts to swing?

If you look out of the windshield and you can see the load - it swings
If you look out of the side window and you can see the load - it swings
If you look down and you can't see the load - it probably swings
If you look through the roof window and you can see the load - don't worry anymore if it swings or not.
Tecpilot:
I know it is an optional kit, but in the AS350 it helps a lot to sit on the left side. I just wonder why nobody is doing it in europe.
Ok, in the B3 the floor window is bigger, but still...
Wasn't there a kit to move the pilots seat more to the right?

Crazy load?
I have a friend who flew logs for a log cabin around. Each about 15 feet long. He flew one after the other with a 206 .... A CESSNA 206. Legal, but it looks weird.

[ralieh]

I'm interested in this job. Could you direct me to the advert? Thanks.

[rotorrookie]

few Q to 407 Driver, when you do your VR sling, are you still sitting in the right hand seat? or do you have left seat provision? Bubble windows? or are the normal high visibility windows good enough?
don't want to hi-jack this thread but it was turning into long-line thread