New FAJS SIDS and STARS

[In the hot seat]

Well ladies and germs, as a controller having to deal with these new SIDS and STARS I have to say they're a monumental :mad: up!!!
:{ :yuk: :\

Never in the whole history of the world have so many different types of aircraft been forced to route together on tracks that conflict!

For rwy 03 the 124.5 guy has to work like a dog just to keep his head above water. This sector now have to deal with FAR TOO MUCH traffic:uhoh:

Sorry people but you are all going to have to sit around and wait at some low levels to wait for your traffic to pass!! The ATC's has to be a lot more on the ball now just to maintain safe level separation. Sorry again, but this means the spacing on finals are going to go for a ball of :mad:

We'll do our best but its beyond our control actually. We get given the :mad: and we just have to make the best of it.:(

[SortieIII]

Do controllers have a say in the design of SIDs and STARs?

I hope so!

[Bravo Echo November]

Yes I must these new SID's & STARS are not nice and what a mess! No planning on the descend can be done correctly and the routes are longer. Also to slow down at 50NM!

[Little One]

Yes we had a say in the design, well certain ATC were asked. NO they did not do much with the advice given by these people.

It seems to be a thing on a chesk list to get anything published now days is "DID WE SPEAK TO THE ATCs" :ok:

It never says did we listen to thier coments, so much of what we say is disregarded:(

The work load is increased dramatically for all the ATCs and there is no guarantee of separation as all the routes conflict. The ESTED1A ARR for 03 is barely 5NM ( the min separation required laterally) from the GAV5B DEP. If any one is hunting for R240 JSV on the ESTED and is just 1 nm North of the radial separation is about 3 to 4 NM. Then on the South eastern side of the FAJS TMA the ANVOX and STV DEPs cross the IMSOK ARR twice, once in the TMA and then again they cross back in the CTA. The routes out to the east all get an extra 15 track miles for free cause they are aircraft specific with jets having to route via NOPIP and Turbo props via EXOBI and pistons via NORVA. so once they get to these poits most flights end up crossing again. Our solution Vertical separation, the price is that flights will now maintain levels for 10 to 15 NM and be given step climb.

It is all new to us as well we had very little training on the new stuff with most of us getting only 1 sim session a few months back and then learning the rest on our own. The day we went live the sectors wern't even drawn correctly on our RADAR maps and a lot of the onscreen routes are still incorrect which will sugest that no testing was done on the system before going live.
:sad:
But true to form it is almost guaranteed that someone will recieve an incentive bonus for a job well done and completed on target.

So what do we do know
Please post any sugestions you have on this site and write to our powers that be (if neccesary through your fleet captains/saftey reps etc) because it seems that they will listen to an outside source (the precious client) before listening to us. Any questions post them here and we will try answer them otherwise please be patient with us and expect plenty of changes in the next 6 months:ugh:

Edited since I found Eltorro re activated his post look here
Staight in (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=125216)

[Zenj]

Hi

I was in joburg some few days back, as you know we always pass via EPSEK and use Witbank arrivals for rw 03 or 21. I did not see any changes this time !

I will be flying again on Thursday on the same route, are there any new changes on this STAR ?

Also on the SID for the same Witbank , are there any changes ?

Kindly let me know and I will verify with my flight despatchers before I depart for any changes.

Thanks

Zenj

[Little One]

Zenj

Do you fly Jets???

You will prob be given the OKPIT1A Arr for 03 but also a chance for the WI3A depending on traffic

Dep you will get a NOPIP1A if a jet off 03 21 Dep NOPIP1B

Arr for 21 not too sure depend on traffic either WI2C or OKPIT1B

[Zenj]

Little One

Whats OKPIT and OKPIP ?

I fly Jet and its Tanzania 7908 in and 7909 out everyday, we do Witbanks STAR and SIDS on reaching Witbank / leaving Joburg respectively.

So tell me if there are no more Witbank SIDS and STARS ?

Zenj

[Little One]

OKPIT and NOPIP are new reporting points to enter the TMA by.

OKPIT R050/50D JSV NOPIP R080/50D JSV

there still is a witbank arr but it has changed slightly and the deps are all totally different so you will have to get the new Jepp plates before you fly but your ops have hopefully got them in the acft by now, If not give our AIM guys a call before you fly on +27 11 928 6517/8

And on the enroute side there are plenty new waypoints

[Zenj]

Thanks for the info

I have just called my Ops manager and a supervisor for Flight Docs ( woke them up at this time) and they have confirmed to me on the changes and they say they were supposed to take effect from 17th February 2005, well I promised them to visit their office and see the new changes by myself.

I appreciate your help and I will have a look on the changes and advise you.

Zenj

[126,7]

No planning on the descend can be done correctly and the routes are longer. Also to slow down at 50NM!

JNB is a big and busy airport and most biggish airports have their STARS terminate on base or downwind. In Europe you hardly ever get to plan your own descent. To make it easier on the ATCs tfc is supposed to be at a certain point at a certain speed and level. That way you dont get tfc backing up higher and higher as they approach the field. You will find that the ATC forces you to descend way out allready.

And to be at 240 or 250 knots by 50 or 60nm is not uncommon either. Its the norm!!

Little One

It is sad to hear that you guys only had one sim run to practise the new procedures. Radar maps not up to date either?? Anybody ever heard of safety? Did ATNS at least reduce the amount of traffic on the first day or two?

[In the hot seat]

Dear 126,7

Ja genau! The flyers must be reminded that the first task of standard routings is to simplify Air Traffic Management. Their comfort and ease of operation is not the first priority here.

That said, standard routings should also NOT be designed to give them a white knuckle ride either! These new deps keep traffic on 4 different SIDs right on top of each other for 25 trach miles while the busiest arrival route heads straight at them too!

That's why I say there is going to be a lot of attention paid to the east of the field and less on final. One guy has to do both functions, you see, and traffic converging is going to keep his attention far more than traffic in a straight stripe on final or downwind.

I'm not worried about the track miles. I'm worried about the HUGE amount of waisted fuel doing step climbs from F090 to F150.

So please, all you flying types, turn on your fish finders and look at the amount of traffic around you before pushing us for climb / descent.

And no, we had no say in the design of the routes. Everything we had to offer was smiled at and then ignored.

Have a nice day ... stuck at 10 000 for 3 minutes before getting stuck at 11 000 for another three:{

DO NOT BUST YOUR LEVELS!!!! THERE IS NOW TO MUCH TRAFFIC AROUND YOU!!! THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ERROR!!!

[406pilot]

hi

arif is that you? karibu pprune this is ur old neighbour awaiting sim trg...found out from the new guys siku hizi nopip is the way to go



keep it up there fellows
no more 406pilot

[Zenj]

Little One , 126,7 , In the hot seat and others in this thread

Thanks for the info on FAJS airspace, Tomorrow I will be flying into Joburg on TC 7908 / 9 and will see for myself the first impressions of the new /revised / updated system !

I will also pass your worries to the airline so that other pilot's can monitor and advise on how they feel about it.

In IFALPA we had a way of telling the deficiencies in African airports and the reports that we got from pilot's were the one which lead to classifying the threats in terms of ATC, Safety and Collision Avoidance, I guess as SAA were the pioneer in this early scheme than we can have them hand in hand to oversee on this new system also.

Lets hope for the best

Zenj

[Maurice Chavez]

I for one love the new STAR's.....Last night, RUDAS dct LIV for vectors, speed: own speed. Great 250Kts on the downwind, cleared for a visual on to 03L, I can't see what all the complaining is all about.... From touchdown to on chocks in 3 mins... :E :E :E

[Little One]

I'm now thinking that these new routes are doing nothing but making flying more dangerous. As the Radar South ATC whose primary function is to vector on to final, your focus is split now split in to as many as 4 or 5 focus areas at once. I find that being pretty new on the sector that I am sometimes holding it togethr by the bare minimum. Having to focus on Final and on tfc crossing in the south east section of the TMA as well as trying to keep traffic an the Ested arr above those on Radar west freq on the downwind wich is head on to each other on different frequencies. Never mind the fact that you still have to keep you deps separated from the traffic now joining on an early downwind from okpit.

Too many focus areas for one person if you ask me and the fact that all the routes point exactly at one another makes no room for error.

Just my opinion though seems that cause the tread is quite no-one else seems to have a problem. Oh and great Maurice so glad we could finaly give someone good service

[Zenj]

Hi

Yes as I promised, flew the new SIDS and STARS on Wed as Tanzania 7908/9

I can see from Jepp Area Chart effective 17th Feb ( same date as the SIDS and STARS effectivity) that there are some routes which are one way but a route from Witbank into Joburg does not shows as a one way even though we no longer have Witbank deperature from 03L or 21R

Still it's too early to say whats better, but if the guys who do the job itself, the controllers feel it's not safe or not a conveninet change then it's a point taken and we need to re-address this to the authorities.


Let us get more feedback from ATC and also from the pilot's view and from the pilot's we need to know which sector is a threat, some of us have never flown any other zone except the East so it's not fair to judge from one angle

Zenj