Fighter Controller - advice please [Archive]

trap one

20th Feb 2005, 08:11

The morning glory on the aptitude tests is they are difficult but you can practice, go to any of the good book shops and look up the tests books there are loads. Get ones that are focussed on the ATC aptitude tests i.e. 3D awareness Command decision making and maths. Test yourself and push yourself, but the bottom line is it's easier if you have the aptitude. If you're serious go to a AFCO and ask they'll put you though the aptitude tests that they have and will then do all the rest to get you in if you have the test results to go for the aptitude tests.
One you pass then you have to do the Cranwitz time and show you can be an Officer. Post that you then go to SFC At RAF Boulmer and do the ADFC this decides using simulators if you'll e a systems or controller or go back to Cranwell.
Both sides of the job are interesting but for different reasons, the Control side is an adrenaline rush. The bigger the sortie the better! But you have to be able to control safely as well as tactically and that’s what stops most people going for Controller(WC). The Systems side is more technically orientated especially after your first tour as an Identification & Recognition Officer(IDRO). The trade comes back together at Sqn Ldr rank when you do your Master Controller ticket.
In between time you can go E3's Travel the world and normally stay in hotels, but more often live in tents or stay on base. Or go 1ACC where you'll definitely stay in tents but travel about the same. All through these tours you will still be an Officer responsible for a certain number of troops, their welfare discipline and career development.
As for is the job rewarding yes it is and if you put 100% into the job then it can become even more so. No you don't have to be a Spotter and know everything about aircraft, but you are expected to have a working knowledge of aircraft peformance and tactics.
Will the RAF ask you in with the urrent state of recruitment, probably as the branch is always short of WC's and IDRO. The rest is up to you.

Pontius Navigator

20th Feb 2005, 08:48

<<One you pass then you have to do the Cranwitz time and show you can be an Officer. Post that you then go to SFC At RAF Boulmer and do the ADFC this decides using simulators if you'll e a systems or controller or go back to Cranwell. >>

And this is the Beecher's Brook of the path to becoming an FC. OASC needs to get as many people with the basic aptitude to be both FC and an officer.

Cranditz makes sure they got it right and usually get the product squared away. It is the last hurdle at the School of FC that really tests your initial aptitude.

Do you know what is going on around you? Behind you? Do you have a single minded focus? If you said no, no, yes then you might struggle.

JessTheDog

20th Feb 2005, 12:33

Much as it pains me to say this, it's a hugely difficult job that can only be done by very bright individuals*

:D :D :D :D :D

Much amusement!;)

There is little point in getting hung up on the inflated chop rate. An individual can either do the job or not; if so then crack on, and if not then find another job - there are plenty of opportunities out there!

The weapons control stream is one that requires an innate ability to think quickly in three dimensions that some people don't possess to the required degree. This is not to say that some people are beyond training as a WC, merely that they are unlikely to attain the required standard within the training time available - you could (probably) train (nearly) anyone to do the job if you had unlimited training time! WCs are, in some ways, over-trained for their war role and this is because of the flight safety requirements of peacetime flying; other nations train their controllers to a lesser degree.

The systems stream requires the ability to multi-task and think quickly in terms of prioritisation, but these skills can usually be trained to the required extent in the time available whereas the WC skills cannot. There is more big picture stuff - looking at a large chunk of UK (or other) airspace and manipulating air surveillance systems, with a great deal of responsibility after a few tours.

Back to the chop rate - the stories are inflated. In the past, the WC stream was seen as the most prestigious and exciting, and those that failed WC usually ended up as systems officers. The systems stream has a respectable pass rate and (IMHO) relatively few officers end up facing reselection. The branch has evolved since those days and weapons and systems are seen as different specialisations with their own characteristics, rather than as first and second choices.

The WC stream certainly provides more excitement on a day-to-day basis, but the systems stream provides more satisfaction in later tours, with more responsibility and more career options.

and this is because of the flight safety requirements of peacetime flying :uhoh:

Oops! This reads differently to the way I intended! I meant to say something along the lines of the difficulties in carrying out military training in an environment shared with civil aviation to the degree required by the CAA, not to imply that flight safety somehow goes out the window during war. It is, however, (IMHO) a simpler job when you are not having to arrange practice intercepts around civil aviation traffic!

Always_broken_in_wilts

20th Feb 2005, 13:10

*Much as it pains me to say this, it's a hugely difficult job that can only be done by very bright individuals*:rolleyes:

Utter bollox...............I passed all the aptitude tests at Biggin Hill for said role..............and I have the brains of a duck:ok: ......if I was considered capable then it can easily be mastered by any PG Tips advert "star":E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

aluminium persuader

20th Feb 2005, 14:57

How can a Fighter Controller be a "glorified Air Traffic Controller"?

;)

Don't you know, they don't come any more glorious than Air Traffickers?!

:cool:

BEagle

20th Feb 2005, 17:18

Well, the top ATCOs at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome are very glorious indeed!

Or did I mean to say 'glamorous'?

No matter - both adjectives are equally applicable!

As for FCs, life must be much better nowadays. No more living in dripping caverns in god-forsaken parts of the East Coast. Or keeping watch over dodgy rockets like Bloodhound 2 for those who were relegated to EC status.

But going round in circles for hours in the back of an old Boeing? Well, it could be worse. It might have been an ancient Comet......

Matoman

20th Feb 2005, 17:38

Steady on BEagle - are you feeling alright?

You've said something relativley kind about Brize Radar!!!????

Have you had a particularly good Sunday lunch today or is age starting to suddenly dull the edge of your normally sharp pen?

I think we should be told why you have had a sudden change of heart?

moony

20th Feb 2005, 17:52

Remember, it is more difficult to keep aircaft apart than to put them together.

BEagle

20th Feb 2005, 18:11

No sudden change of heart - just respect where it is due!

I am as prepared to comment favourably on ATCOs who provide an excellent, friendly and flexible service as I am to comment adversely on those who are at the other end of the spectrum....

No lunch - din-dins is almost ready though! Rare roast beef....

SpotterFC

20th Feb 2005, 18:29

And having had several hundred people like ABIW thru the doors of the SFC you wonder why the chop rate is so high? You give yourself away with the Biggin Hill quote. The aptitudes for ATC and FC are similar and the entire battery was redesigned extensively in the mid-late 90s because it was widely recognised that the aptitudes were in fact boll*x!

General aptitude under a testing regime is one thing - actually doing the job is quite another.

Keeping the jets apart is easy. Getting them together is easy. Keeping 3 or 4 jets away from joe public airlines and STILL getting them together - that's the hard part (and also why I went systems!)

Flugplatz

20th Feb 2005, 19:22

Thanks guys!

Thats just the type of response I was hoping for and it does sound like an interesting and exacting job with a chance to fly (and with a real contribution to flight ops).

Strangely enough I am at present working as a helo pilot in the US, often flying in the Washington DC ADIZ so I am used to that busy controlled environment. I hadn't thought about the supersonic+ closing speeds of the mil hardware though.... I guess it could get real complicated, real fast..

I am going to contact the RAF AFCO and see if I can get the ball rolling - nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Thanks again,

Flug ;)

Pontius Navigator

20th Feb 2005, 20:37

Flugplatz, I am guessing a bit here but your RW experience may well be an asset in the back of the flying mushroom. The hecopleter is not easy to track when it is flying nap of the earth - both speed and terrain make this difficult. Knowledge of what Biggles is doing can be a big asset when trying to anticipate what he is going to do.

Anyway they would rather have someone who wants to do the job than someone who is pursuaded to do the job just because they have the aptitude. You might even get a bit more sympathy too.

Good luck.

Bunker Mentality

20th Feb 2005, 21:03

FlugPlatz
A chap can do a lot worse than become an FC. If you have the time & money, it would be a good idea for you to arrange a 'Realistic Job Preview' through a careers office, which would give you the opportunity to visit Boulmer and talk to FCs of both specialisations and see what they do - without commitment. A bit tricky from your side of the pond, though.

In your first post, you mentioned aircrew. Don't be fooled by the fact that many of the Sentry's mission crew are FCs - that doesn't make us an aircrew branch. Mission crew FCs get to wear and keep their FC brevets (quite rightly), but the rest of us wear the same disitinctive badge as Scribblies, Stackers, Air Tragic, the Ginger Beers and so on - ie, none.

Don't bank on getting onto the jet - there's a lot of competition, not only from FCs but from aircrew mates whose fleets are being drawn down. If you decide to join us, you need to be prepared for a life on the ground (if not under it!)

Good Luck.

SpotterFC

20th Feb 2005, 21:10

(BM - you beat me to it - at least we're singing from the same hymnsheet!)

Flugplatz

Sorry got distracted by ABIW (as usual) so forgot the advice.

By all means get in touch with the AFCO, but make sure you insist on a Realistic Job Preview Visit. This won't get you onto the Jet or a visit to 1 ACC (unfortunately they've now moved), but will get you up to the School of Fighter Control at Boulmer, into the last remaining bunker (hopefully to disappear soonish - but you'll end up there or somewhere like it above ground for at least 1 tour) and into the Officers' Mess Bar. The latter place is probably where you will get the most info.

Don't let the AFCO put you off this visit - half the time they don't even know they exist!

Wholeheartedly agree that we'd far rather have someone that wants to do the job than soneone 'tricked' into it with the old excuse that you can re-branch at Cranwell - not a hope - and who then spends 10 years whinging about it. Still, although we're still getting people onto the Jet, it is by no means a forgone conclusion - especially with the imminentish demise of the F3 fleet and the consequent glut of unemployed WSOs. If you come into the Branch expecting a Jet slot as of right you may well be disappointed.

If you get the visit up north then I'd suggest dropping SirTopphamHat a PM prior to the visit.

Flugplatz

20th Feb 2005, 23:47

I am learning a whole lot here since the RAF Careers website doesn't seem to have too much on the FC role (no detailed info on FC training/postings/timescales, or that it is possible to do these preview visits). I think that a visit would be well worth while and I will push for that at the Careers Office - at least I can afford to buy a round of drinks on the visit to the mess! (I hope that isn't why these visits are encouraged? :) )

So the advice appears to be: Well worth it if you have the aptitude and motivation; and regard a seat on the E-3 as a bonus rather than a right. Better to push for FC from the outset and make it clear that it is not a second choice.

I intend to keep on flying choppers, probably instructing on weekends, so the 'flying bug' will get regular nourishment even if I am incarcerated in a bunker.

Final question: what is 1ACC?

Flug

Maple 01

21st Feb 2005, 05:17

1 Air Control Centre

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/other.html
http://www.ueccs.co.uk/systems/adsi/

Mobile radar, as I'm a bit out of the loop theses days I'd check but think its in the process of moving to Scampton

Its a bit more 'combat ready' (or so they like to think!) being on short notice to buzz into trouble-spots around the world. They spent the last Gulf unpleasantness in Tallil, Iraq. By all accounts they did a good job of airspace control and co-ordination - if you enjoy the outdoor rugged life its for you - doesn’t make for a smooth home life though

A short film was made a few years ago which the CIO or AFCO should be able to get hold of.

I'm told its the future of the branch......

SirToppamHat

21st Feb 2005, 09:18

My goodness, someone asked about FC and got some useful and honest replies based on actual experience of the job!! The Thread didn't deteriorate into the usual slanging match (despite ABIW's best efforts! ;) )

SpotterFC and the others have given good advice, and I would reinforce that the 'chop-rate' is not what it once was. On my course, only one qualified as a controller out of the 10 that started on the ADFC (thanks mostly to the efforts of Trev C, Bob D and Jackie C), so that was seen as a 90% 'chop-rate' - no mention was made of the 4 guys who went on to be good systems officers, and most of those would have got another crack at controller if they'd wanted it.

Times have changed. In the mid-late 80s (before I joined), the 'pass rate' was low. The thing that bothered me was that I really did not want to go systems, ESPECIALLY after I had had a go at it on the ADFC! BUT, plenty of people do enjoy it.

A few other things you may want to consider:

Working in a bunker is no big deal, in fact it's quite pleasant now that we have the new kit.

No 1 ACC is currently based at Kirton-in-Lindsey (AKA Royston Vasey!), but is expected to move to Scampton in due course. They have very capable kit now, but they also deploy a lot. Not for everyone, and no direct entry. You need to be 'Combat Ready' in your specialisation to go there, and like wearing DPM!

The Control and Reporting Centre (CRC) is at Boulmer with a separate Temporary CRC (T-CRC AKA ABACUS) above ground there to provide additional control positions and a fallback facility. Later this year, the T-CRC will close, with a new CRC opening above ground at Scampton. Eventually (c.2012) the CRC at Boulmer will close, but beyond that it is difficult to be precise. Most people have wanted to see controllers operate more closely with fighter sqns, and it is possible that a CRC could open at Coningsby, or perhaps we will all have individual workstations in the WOCs - technology will drive much if this IMHO.

E-3D slots for WCs may be more difficult to come by with WSOs coming off the F3 and GR fleets. ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEE OF A SLOT ON THE JET, but most of those that get it seem to find ways of staying there ad infinitum.

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned 'Space'. Fylingdales is also manned by FCs, and many of those in the know see this as a huge requirement in the future. Although I have visited a few times, I couldn't comment much on the job, quality of life etc, perhaps someone else out there might? I have to say it all seemed pretty boring to me, but each to their own ... what do I know? However, like 1 ACC and the E-3D, Fylingdales is not somewhere you can get to as an FC without first qualifying as a systems officer - there is no ab initio route.

There also seems to be a ready market for FCs in all sorts of ops roles within CAOCs, JFAC HQs and the like - battlespace management goes along with the territory I suppose.

By all means look at Flight Ops, but not before FC and ATC.

FC v ATC. BANTER OFF! If you start as an FC and can't control, you will probably be sent Surveillance - I would have hated this. You can fail FC and go ATC, but I don't know anyone that has gone in the other direction until thay have qualified as an ATCO. My honest advice would be to look at both before making your mind up. ATC also offers a massively better spread of postings taking into account Airfield ATC.

Looking beyond your RAF career, Civvie ATC is open to Mil ATC and FC alike (including Surveillance!!!) beyond the normal age limit. Both specialisations are seen as good bets for CATCS.

If you want to PM me with specific questions please do. Push for an RJP, but DON'T JUST STAND WITH THE OTHER RJP VISITORS GETTING PI@@ED - TALK TO THE OTHERS IN THE BAR AND FIND OUT WHAT THEY THINK (AND STILL GET PI@@ED)!

Whatever you decide, good luck!

(Edited to make a bit more sense and include a minor dig at Flight Ops!)

Navaleye

21st Feb 2005, 11:50

Fluglplatz, If you want to be an FC, the navy is another option to consider. I beleive they are actually looking for people.

Seat 17

21st Feb 2005, 12:29

Flugplatz,
(rant on!)for pity's sake don't join the RN as an FC unless you actually want to do everything else under the sun except control! RN FC is not a branch in it's own right. You would have to join as a Warfare Branch Officer, complete all the BRNC training including Fleet Time training at sea before completing a Bridge Watchkeeping tour.

You would then have the option of the FC course before returning to sea on (usually) a Type 42 Destroyer where you would be used as a Bridge Watchkeeper, Officer-Of-The-Day, Divisional Officer, Focsle Officer, XO's b!tch, and every other sh!tty job going.

At Operational Sea Training you would get to control 1 Hawk for assessment purposes and you would find it almost impossible to stay current and competent. After 2 or 3 jobs as a non-credible controller you would then be streamed back into the Warfare Branch career pattern as a Principal Warfare Officer and would never control again.

If you want to control seriously then stick with the RAF, they do it better. (rant off)

SirToppamHat

21st Feb 2005, 12:48

RN FCs

Good at their jobs from what I've seen of them within the CRCs over the years. Standard career progression:

1. Join RN as above.

2. BRNC.

3. Sea Tour.

4. Watchkeeping Certificate.

5. Specialise as an FC (AKA Freddie).

6. Sea Tour.

7. Instructor at RN SFC (optional).

8. Get exchange with RAF (CRC, E-3D, RAF SFC).

9. Change uniform to light blue and stay! :p

Vapour

21st Feb 2005, 14:51

If you want to control seriously then stick with the RAF, they do it better. (rant off)
Speak for yourself! The crabs may control more often, but it's quality, not quantity, that counts. However, I agree that if all you want to do is control aircraft, the navy is probably not the route to go. The plus side to being an FC in the RN is you get a lot more variety, mainly because you've got so many other jobs to do, and you get to travel a bit more. The downside is that controlling can be a rare event, and during my tour as freddie on a Type 42 I spent more hours on the bridge than I did in the ops room.
Change uniform to light blue and stay!
What, and give up all those weeks and months stuck at sea in a clapped out destroyer in favour of a nice comfortable job in the CRC where ... gasp ... you can actually have a life??! Are they mad?

Vapour.

Navaleye

21st Feb 2005, 14:53

10. Have a damned to crack while you're at it. Make sure you do the long course.

11. Throw in the towel after 18 years, take the money and run then get a job in industry on three times pay.

12. CVF and T45 will certainly provide lots of opportunities for you.

13. A girl in every port (actually having read the sodomy thread above, this may not always be the case :mad: )

GLOC

21st Feb 2005, 19:10

If you get chopped from ATC in the RAAF you may be offered Air Defence (Not vice-verca). That's if you have been a good little vegemite in OQ's and general performance.....

Says it all really.

:E

SirToppamHat

21st Feb 2005, 20:15

GLOC

Says it all about what? Presumably you have sufficient airspace down under to do AD without having to work between and around what SpotterFC describes as 'Joe Public Airlines'? That being the case, there is some logic to what you say.

I know of one FC candidate who was chopped from the ADFC and whom I met some years later when he had qualified as an area ATCO at LATCC Mil.

I know one ATCO (since retired) who joined the FC Branch when his original commission came to an end.

I do not know of any 'chopped' ATC candidates that have successfully retrained as FCs - though I will stand to be corrected.

BigginAgain

21st Feb 2005, 20:49

grousehunter

Most of they guys on this thread are attempting to provide info for Flugplatz and anyone else with an interest. Why don't you take your rather childish cr@p elsewhere. If you think anyone gives a t0ss, then start your own thread on the subject - however, I think it's all been done to death.

BA

The Gorilla

21st Feb 2005, 20:50

Grouse I have a grouse!!

Don't tar all Air Eng's with the same brush matey!!

Biggin

You got there just before me!!! Well done!
:p

aluminium persuader

21st Feb 2005, 22:50

Wow, so much advice! :)

If you get to the UK & you're still confused, pay Wattisham a visit. AAC station with RAF SAR flight on base & civvy ATC'ers of whom several are ex-mil. There even used to be a Lt Col Medic pilot, tho I'm not sure there is one there at the mo.

Luck, Buddy. Decisions, decisions! :rolleyes:

ap.

Flugplatz

22nd Feb 2005, 01:33

The response to my questions has been excellent (particularly SpotterFc and SirToppamhat) and just confirms PPRUNE (and it's readership) to be first-class.

I notice a trend on the Mil Aircrew threads to really encourage those who want to take on a challenge and are serious about serving, but also to give a hard time to complainers, or those who are unhappy with their lot but aren't doing anything about it!. I guess a lot of the readership got where they are by hard work and commitment.

Thanks for the info on RN FCs, I hadn't even thought about that! but I think I will stick to the RAF since it is a primary role and in the service dedicated to aviation.

As mentioned by SirTH, over here in the States there seems to be a lot more emphasis on space-ops recently (USAF Space Command getting a lot of press). It looks like the US are trying to get real-time surveillance of the battlefield 24/7 right down to individuals walking about. They are developing space-based radar, high altitude long-duration blimps and rapid launch satellites to get this coverage whenever and wherever they need it. It actually seems a bit creepy particularly as the space-based radar constellation could be combined with GPS to track anything globally - even their 'allies'.:uhoh:
Looks like the trend will be to position airborne sensing platforms at all levels from Army Platoon UAVs to billion dollar sat networks - at least for those countries that can afford it.

Q. Anybody know anything about the crewing of Sentinel/JSTARS?

Flug

JessTheDog

22nd Feb 2005, 06:44

Q. Anybody know anything about the crewing of Sentinel/JSTARS?

I believe the raw data will be sent to the ground via a platform-specific datalink and analysed there. Not much scope for another airborne scopie job unfortunately!

Magic Mushroom

22nd Feb 2005, 23:30

Flug,
Sentinel will have the following manning:
2 x Pilots (RAF) who will also have some mission tasks to perform (radio management etc).

1 x Mission Controller. The MC will be an RAF WSO. Despite wide support (particularly at Innsworth, the ASTOR OEU and Waddington) to employ E-3D experienced FCs in this role, branch politics intervened and the Fg Branch blocked it.

2 x Image Analysts (IA). These will be a mix of RAF WSOp, TG14 and Army Int Corps SNCOs who will be able to do some product analysis on board.

There is also the possibility of employing a small number of commissioned RAF OSB(Int) and Army Int Corps guys in an Airborne Collection Manager (ACM) role. However, this job is as yet undefined and there is no ACM console.

Although JSTARS can tailor its crew for specific tasks, a typical crew (running front to rear) is as follows:

2 x Pilots.
1 x Flt Eng.
1 x Nav who also acts as the Defensive Systems Officer, deciding upon retrogrades and working closely with the crew IntO to liaise with AWACS/SIGINT etc.
1 x IntO. Liaising closely with the Nav and managing some data links.
1 x Sensor Manager Officer (SMO). The SMO is normally an Air Battle Manager (ABM) (what the USAF call their FCs) who optimises and manages the APY-3 radar.
2 x Comms Techs. NCOs who configure and maintain comms and data links.
2 x Airborne Radar Technicians (ART). NCO radar techs.
1 x Senior Director (SD). Typically a Maj or Capt ABM who manages airborne assets under the command of his Air Weapons Officers (AWO) (also ABMs).
2 x AWO. Typically first tourist ABMs straight out of Tydall (USAF FC trg). AWOs procedurally control CAS/AH and other assets assigned by the SD.
1 x Mission Crew Commander (MCC). Maj/Lt Col ABM or WSO responsible for overall JSTARS mission and acs tactical employment (with the exception of retrogrades...ugh - don't like that concept!!!).
1 x Deputy MCC (DMCC). The DMCC is always a US Army Maj or Lt Col. He concentrates on high level liaison with Land.
3 x Air Ops Techs (AOTs). SNCO surveillance personnel responsible for management of MTI tracks in particular (viewed as something of a black art).
1 x Senior Display Tech (SDT). NCO who looks after the AOT dudes as directed by the SD.
2-4 Army liaison element. Enlisted Army or USMC personnel who concentrate on liaison with GFACs and other Land elements.

JSTARS crew responsibilities are very stove piped (much like USAF AWACS) and there is more emphasis on C2/ABCCC than pure SAR/MTI exploitation.

During their careers, the USAF JSTARS ABMs will typically progress from AWO - SD - SMO - MCC on JSTARS. Some move across to other flying appointments such as AWACS (or vice versa), or serve in ground TACCS (similar to 1 ACC) or NORAD CRCs.

Hope that this is useful. Incidentally, all of the above is available on open source.

Regards,
M2

Fox3snapshot

23rd Feb 2005, 00:52

COMSEC..............

:ooh:

ORAC

23rd Feb 2005, 07:43

MM,

"Sentinel will have the following manning: 2 x Pilots (RAF) "

What happened to the plan for the AAC to provide half the pilots? (Heard some pointed comments a few years back, when proposed, about the possibility, or not, of a teeny weeny rotary driver being competent to fly one IFR in airways. )

trap one

23rd Feb 2005, 08:24

One of the benefits of E3D crews is the large amount of different backgrounds that inhabit the crews so yes your RW experience will help you.
There has been a lot of advice about aptitude and the pit falls of not passing. Well as you already have flying experience under your belt then you will find you have more "spare brain power" to devote to the thinking rather than worrying about what to say. A lot of students struggle because they aren't used to talking on radios.
Go get the books practice and give it your best shot.

About the career paths
1st Tour CRC Both WC and IDO
2nd Tour Both sides of Branch E3D/1ACC/Back to SFC as an instructor IDRO Space at Fylingdales
WC Exchange with RN School and on CVS/T42. Some NATO exchanges are open to WC's and IDRO but they are getting fewer.
3rd Tour Back to CRC as a supervisor WC=Fighter Allocator IDRO=Surveillance Director, (if on 1ACC/E3D then you'll qualify as a FA/SD/Surveillance Controller (airborne SD) while still at Waddo or at 1ACC).
Or to Standards as a "Checker" BOO, HISS.
4th Tour either staff tour or as FA/SD instructors can be at CRC or at SFC. If at Waddo usually into support functions or Evaluation and Software or maybe even Aerospace Systems Course if you don't get selected as TD (boss of Mission Crew).
5th Tour if you make Sqn Ldr both branches are back into one stream as the CRC supervisor. Some long time Flt Lt get there as the end of their 3rd/4th tour if they have been in the CRC al their career. Also as OC some of the Smaller units although most are now parented from other larger units
6th Tour back into staff work. Large involvement in Battle space management.
7th Tour sweating on Wg Cdr two of which are command tours ie OC CRC and OC 1ACC.
After that either staff work or as there is a Gp Capt as CO of Boulmer there remains one further command tour.
Will you get picked up for as the list depends on you, the average tour is 2.5 years but you can go early (more common unless on exchange tour).
There is also a number of jobs involved in Computers and you can always go back to Cranwell as an Instructor.
If your serious about keeping going as a RW flyer then the 4 on 4 off shift pattern can help you, have known a couple of FC's who flew for companies during their 4 off.

JessTheDog

23rd Feb 2005, 10:13

Sentinel will have the following manning:
2 x Pilots (RAF) who will also have some mission tasks to perform (radio management etc).

1 x Mission Controller. The MC will be an RAF WSO. Despite wide support (particularly at Innsworth, the ASTOR OEU and Waddington) to employ E-3D experienced FCs in this role, branch politics intervened and the WSO branch bloked it.

2 x Image Analysts. These will be a mix of RAF WSOp, TG14 and Army Int Corps SNCOs who will be able to do some product analysis on board.

There is also the possibility of employing a small number of commissioned RAF OSB(Int) and Army Int Corps guys in an Airborne Collection Manager (ACM) role. However, this job is as yet undefined and there is no ACM console.

:eek: Sounds like "jobs for the boys"! Why on earth? Why not stick some more kit on board and do it all remotely?

trap one

23rd Feb 2005, 15:09

Jess
If it all has to be done remotely you then have to deploy a shed load of kit to do the job. Therefore until your kit turns up you are sat doing nowt. See Swedish AEW

Magic Mushroom

23rd Feb 2005, 18:51

Fox3SS,
I say again...ALL this information is available open source!!!

Orac,
The Army didn't really push the issue of pilots, concentrating more on securing IA places on the jet.

The AAC have a very small pool of fixed wing pilots and it's difficult to argue a rotary-Multi-Engine Cross Over (MEXO) as he'd have to do a fairly lengthy (and expensive) MEXO course at Cranwell. Any candidate would presumably also have to be an officer if he was to stand any chance of captaincy (but let's not get into the old officer v NCO pilot arguments!!). Meanwhile, there are plenty of ME light blue pilots.

It's a shame mind as Sentinel would give a nice alternative posting for the AAC guys.

Jess,
As trap says, relying completely on off-board exploitation leaves you wide open for major problems. Firstly, you need huge amounts of bandwidth for SAR in particular and this costs BIG bucks!!!! Having a limited mission crew allows an asset to work when the link is U/S, subject to ECM, or out of line of sight of the ground stations.

As Trap points out, the Swedish S100 Argus/Erieye AEW system has only 2 pilots and a radar tech with everything down linked to the Swedish ground based AD network. However, the Swedes are now examining placing a small airborne mission crew on the Argus to enable the ac to deploy on ops and interact with NATO/EU assets.

Regards,
M2

ADIS5000

23rd Feb 2005, 19:13

Not trying to hijack the thread but,

M2

I'm a bunker dweller, who's intrigued as to why "...you need huge amounts of bandwidth for SAR in particular..."? Please enlighten as I'm sure that if it involves SAR the answer must be suitable for open forum?

Incidentally, shouldn't it be 2M or M+1 if we can't manage superscript?

Regards, ADIS

Magic Mushroom

23rd Feb 2005, 19:39

ADIS,
Apologies, are you under the impression that I'm referring to Search And Rescue?

In this context SAR means Synthetic Aperture Radar. Raw SAR data is kind of like trying to shove a very large file down a non-broadband internet terminal (ie, it'd take forever and probably would only partially arrive if at all). Modern SAR sensors offer very high resolution which demands very large bandwidth to exchange effectively.

Whilst platforms such as JSTARS and ASTOR have data links to enable SAR transfer, to pass everything to the ground would use up needless bandwidth.

Regards,
M2

Flugplatz

23rd Feb 2005, 22:26

Thanks Magic Mushroom/Trap One,

That was useful to get an idea of a typical tour and career progression. I think I will need to bone-up on military abbreviations since some of those were a bit hard to decipher!

I am pretty much using all the contributers to the thread as a 'remote' AFCO at the moment since I am not due back in Blighty till mid-march. I have spoken to some recruitment reps who confirm that FCs are in demand and I might be able to be "processed" quickly (faintly sinister; connotations of Borg-like assimilation if you ask me! ).

Q. What is the job spec of an IDRO and what particularly is "Surveillence" in the FC context? (one PPRUNEr didn't seem to think much of it - is it a punishment-type posting or what? - maybe a REALLY deep bunker).

V. interesting to hear about the various sensor platforms (or aircraft as they used to be known) and the manning thereof.

Flug

tablet_eraser

23rd Feb 2005, 22:56

As a systems bunker-dweller, I'm extremely familiar with the role of "IDRO"...

Firstly, "IDROs" ceased to exist many years ago. Pre-ICCS, in fact, so well before 1992. ICCS was the system we were using until we upgraded recently to UCCS, a vastly-superior system in every respect - easily the best Air Defence kit in the world. On ICCS the role of IDRO (Identification and Recognition Officer) changed to RO (Reporting Officer), and then IDO (Identification Officer). On UCCS the job is known as IDO.

The IDO is responsible for the day-to-day surveillance of the UK's airspace - an area known by its NATO designator, Air Policing Area 9 (APA9). Encompassing APA9 is the Track Production Area (TPA), which is the area including and outside the APA within which the UCCS forms air tracks on radar data for identification. This area, covering some two-and-a-half million square miles, is by far the largest TPA in Europe, and stretches from the Western Approaches of Norway, out to Iceland, and down as far as Brest. Some 60,000 air movements take place through this area every day. Excluding those which remain over the UK's mainland, this amounts to over 40,000 air tracks which must be correctly identified and correlated every day.

IDO's are threat-assessors, investigators, and liaison officers. They must individually assess each air track using a variety of sensors (radar, E3D, ships and ESM), and then apply various identification criteria in order to identify the air track as friendly, suspect or hostile. Each track must also be associated with a callsign, or at least a known pattern of behaviour. The product of this surveillance is known as the Recognised Air Picture, which is used by the Combined Air Operations Cell (CAOC9 in the UK) to manage the air situation.

In peactime, IDOs support the Air Defence task by identifying high-value aircraft such as tankers as soon as they are airborne, maintaining accurate tracking on all aircraft, liaising with continental agencies, air traffic control and airports to assist with identification of unknown aircraft, and maintaining a constant vigil for potential air threats. During exercises or war, the IDO must apply professional air power and ABM knowledge to assess each air track and categorise it as hostile, friendly or neutral, and at the same time identify the type of aircraft (jammer, tanker, AWACS, etc). The IDO will often be conducting this task, speaking to a foreign agency or ATC, keeping an eye on various important tracks, and listening to up to 8 radios at the same time in order to make accurate decisions. Without the IDO, the air battle falls apart - he is responsible for ensuring targets are passed to the "weaponeers" who can then direct their fast jets to engage hostile aircraft.

IDOs often specialise in Electronic Warfare, passing information about air tracks to ships and the E3. This adds an extra layer to a job which, contrary to the impressions of some people, is actually very interesting at times. Most WCs recognise the role that IDOs play, and let's face it - a two-hour stint on FM is not that much more interesting than putting As on Ps for an hour...

The IDO role is not as glamorous as the WC role, but it is equally as essential. "Without the eyes, the fist is useless", as one systems Sqn Ldr put it. After conducting a tour as an IDO, the officer may be posted to the School of Fighter Control as an instructor, or he may progress to the role of Surveillance Director, the officer responsible for configuring the system to ensure that the IDOs and Weaponeers have enough radars and radios to conduct their tasks.

So... that's the job as it is. Both sides of the branch are challenging, and both bring their rewards. Weaponeers are more likely to move on to higher battle management than systems officers, but the latter enjoy a greater diversity of postings. IDOs could end up planning the UK's data links systems at the Data Links Operations Cell (DLOC), or manning the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) at Fylingdales - a job which enables able officers to specialise in the future field of space-based operations.

Don't let anyone lead you down either side of the branch, otherwise you'll find yourself demotivated if you are selected for the "wrong" side. Most FCs will be aware of weaponeers who hand in their "ticket" to return to surveillance, and, likewise, of former IDOs who are now weaponeers. It's a good branch, either side.

Yeller_Gait

23rd Feb 2005, 22:57

I am returning to the UK soon and I am seriously thinking about taking a shot at RAF Fighter Controller.

Just curious, but why are you limiting yourself to the FC branch? As you are not (yet) an FC, there are many other ground and aircrew trades that may well be open to you. So far this thread has discussed the FC and ATC branches, off the top, there are 10 or more RAF trades/branches that can have a seat on an E3D.

As a qualified helo pilot, if not too old, you should try for a pilot commission, keep doing what you are good at, and you always have the option of a career outside of the RAF.

Personally I think it is very commenable that you wish to return to the UK to join HMG's Armed Services, I suggest that you are in a minority.

Flugplatz

24th Feb 2005, 05:19

Bl**din' 'Eck, Tablet Eraser! I just didn't ever consider the scale of this thing!... Of course I knew that a watch was being kept, but your post certainly has put it in perspective! Good on you and all the other dedicated staff that keep us safe day and night.

Old Yeller: Thanks for the sentiments but I am now in my 30s and too old and (increasingly) smelly to go for Pilot/Nav (sigh!..).
I used to be very much into the RAF (Air-Cadets, Station visits, Flying Scholarship) but lost my way for a few years out there, although I have always kept my passion for aviation. After many years and some low and depressing moments (when I was nearly on the verge of growing-up), I have now got to the level where I am one of the extremely lucky few who make a half-decent living out of flying. Having gotten that particular monkey off my back, my aviation interests have broadened to include the Control and even, (gasp!) the Engineering side. In my current job I deal with busy airspace on most days and have really learned to appreciate and respect the abilities of other professionals in the aviation community. Everyone has got their own particular skills to contribute and it is always a pleasure when things are made easy for me by someone who is dedicated and on the ball.

Of course I have now got this career but I would also consider it an honour to wear the RAF blue in some capacity. I am not the smartest kid on the block so I may end up joining the Reserves or something, but the main thing is to give it a shot and I am sure there can be some way I can get involved. Of course I do intend to keep flying regularly but that is more easily achievable at my stage. Believe it or not the RAF could probably give me more stability on the domestic side than I have for some years now so my interest is not totally altruistic. On the whole it seems a worthy and interesting career that has a lot going for it and (at least since 911) is actually regarded as important and worthwhile.

Flug ;)

JessTheDog

24th Feb 2005, 09:54

As trap says, relying completely on off-board exploitation leaves you wide open for major problems. Firstly, you need huge amounts of bandwidth for SAR in particular and this costs BIG bucks!!!! Having a limited mission crew allows an asset to work when the link is U/S, subject to ECM, or out of line of sight of the ground stations.

In this context SAR means Synthetic Aperture Radar. Raw SAR data is kind of like trying to shove a very large file down a non-broadband internet terminal (ie, it'd take forever and probably would only partially arrive if at all). Modern SAR sensors offer very high resolution which demands very large bandwidth to exchange effectively.

There are certainly clear advantages to having an on-board crew, but in this day and age (particularly with the capabilities of SAR) I would have hoped that much of the processing could be carried out automatically before downlinking. I recall from some discussions with someone involved in the project that the jet could spew out an enormous amount of information. One day this capability will be in UAVs rather than in manned airframes. Also, the fewer links in the chain the better - it would greatly aid understanding and reduce confusion if the CO or ops/int officer of a battlegroup is actually talking to the operator in the command post rather than to someone looking at a different display some many thousands of feet up.

This is an enormous capability with massive potential for exploitation; SAR is used for remote sensing in geographic and scientific research.

"Without the eyes, the fist is useless", as one systems Sqn Ldr put it. :D :D :D Absolutely - tell that to the few that believe that the GR9 will effectively replace the FA2! You could also tailor that quote to "the fist is useless anyway" depending on the capabilities of the platform under control!

IThere are also such gems as "put a brick on the identification button and stick the kettle on" and "get a move on, I'm getting sunburnt from all that yellow on the screen" (pre UCMP days!) ;) Are there still idle moments in which to fantasise about the seductive female voice at the other end of the telephone to certain allied outposts, whilst musing on the likely extent of their waistline? A buzzing ops room is a great place to work, particularly in moments of extreme banter!;)

tablet_eraser

24th Feb 2005, 11:27

JTD, would you be referring to the sultry-sounding "LOKI Lady" at Keflavik, by any chance??

Ahh, ICCS. How I miss its tempremental screens, its constantly broken quick action keys, and 101 ways to crash it (remember the INT/ABORT trick?). I've so far only found one way to crash the totes on UCCS, but not much more.

Working on it... ;)

JessTheDog

24th Feb 2005, 11:39

The occasional foolish decision by OC Trg to run simultaneous live and sim on a Friday (he wasn't even on a career push!) at the Northern outpost often led to the system crashing!

Ahh, those happy days, particularly centring and zooming on the "Campbeltown dong" during VIP visits and pre-placing nice red Christmas "surprise" tracks with festive callsigns in the system prior to going off for Christmas leave! :p

trap one

24th Feb 2005, 13:09

TE
I bow to your superior descriptive abilities, well-done mate.

JTD
Bandwidth is a killer and it costs extremely large bucks to get. Without going into the secret SH!T about the problems in this forum, suffice it to say if every platform of AWACS ELINT RECCE etc were remote and therefore having to be sent to a Home based unit you therefore double the bandwidth required. Because you have to talk to the people in the theatre be that FJ SEAD or troops on the ground. Then you have to start hanging more radios on the frame so you end up with a frame the size of a 707. Cheaper to not have the remote exploitation.
However if you do have Home based units, this then takes flexibility/redundancy out of the system if you loose the SATCOM either at the airframe or at the exploitation unit, you have a unit that can see but tell nobody.

Also with the requirement to have everybody in the correct link, again think about how many links are out there how many different mods and the NATO/PFP/EU/SEATO forces are they cleared to the same levels or are people happy to let everybody know what they can see are capable of. Remember the ATO issues with the French in Kosovo.

FP
If you're into engineering then Systems also offers the TACRO job at the radar head. Basically an operator who knows the radar and can process it so that everybody can get something from it. Especially if some b :mad: r is doing their best to disrupt the radar.
Also as a WC I do acknowledge that there is a hell of a lot of banter between the 2 halves but we couldn't functon without each other. Bottom line FP is its all a large team.:ok:

ORAC

24th Feb 2005, 16:19

I miss controlling. :(

SpotterFC

24th Feb 2005, 19:25

TE, there was/is the LOKI lady, but there was the lass at Polestar also (almost certainly before your time if you're still an IDO). Many were the Buchan airmen who drooled over that voice, until they got a visit to that unit and discovered the error of their ways - their LARGE error!

Excellent bit of prose there - bit long for your OJAR "Primary Duties" box though - shame.

There's more than one way of crashing those UCCS totes, but you have to know what you are doing - oh and you need access to roles you probably don't have (or maybe you do - still haven't quite worked out who you are, but there aren't many IDOs who can string sentences together like that!)

T1 - sorry - no more officer TACROs except for 1 ACC. :( All the static radars are manned (personned?) by SNCOs now (though there was a push to get the officers reinstated a while back - don't know what happened there).:confused:

And as for libelling the French like that....oh.....like I did on the NATO thread you mean? :cool:

BigginAgain

24th Feb 2005, 20:44

Quite right TE, not IDROs any more, but I don't believe you have the timing quite right. I am sure that those who logged on to ICCS as RO01, RO02 etc continued to Recognise and (when possible) Identify the RAP for many years beyond 1992 (though I was in a different Ops Room). I think the change to 'Reporting Officer' came as a result of trying to make the job title match the Role ID on ICCS and now UCCS!

Anyway, they are now known as 'Stills' ;) .

I'll get me coat!

BA

PS, lots of Stills retrain as ICs/WCs after a couple of years putting As on Ps, and I know a few ICs who have 'handed in' their control tickets and gone off to do something else entirely in the Service, but can't think of any who have gone back to being Stills except for medical reasons.

SpotterFC

24th Feb 2005, 21:16

BA - I know of at least one who jacked in WC to go back to IDO, and I think you're exagerating a bit to say lots go back. Generally only those who have done the WC course and been chopped go back, having had a couple of years to grow up and get used to working in an Ops environment, and only then if their chop ticket said it would be worthwhile.

RO was, I believe, never really an accepted job title, it was just we just got too damned lazy to say IDRO and it thus drifted into the FC lexicon. IDO came in to match the title in the rest of NATO, and at the same time we stopped recognising and identifying and started identifying and correlating - more bu@@ering about at NATO to justify NATO civilian jobs (heck there goes my soap box again!). Couldn't guarantee the date as it happened whilst I was on my 2 out-of-branch broadening tours, sorry, being a WC you wouldn't know what one of those was!

Magic Mushroom

24th Feb 2005, 21:37

One day this capability will be in UAVs rather than in manned airframes. Also, the fewer links in the chain the better

Jess,
It could be argued that this capability already exists. The RQ-4 Global Hawks employed operationally over Afghanistan and Iraq down link all their SAR. Likewise, the U-2 and it's ASARS-2 radar (from which ASTORS' sensor is developed) is little more than a piloted UAV with all exploitation conducted off board. But you really do need a hugely expensive Satellite constellation AND bandwidth for this.

UK PLC cannot afford this and the ASTOR requirement has it's origins in the 1970s when UAVs and such remote exploitation were merely a pipe dream.

Regards,
M2

BigginAgain

24th Feb 2005, 21:38

SpotterFC

I agree with everything you have said, but the point I wanted to make was that, whereas 'in the olden days' it was quite unusual for a 'Still' to get another shot at WC, it seems to be happening far more frequently.

Recently I have noticed it is sometimes those who have taken the 'long route' to WC who are most 'bantersome' in the crew room! The direct qualified WCs mostly seem relieved to have got through and, in the early stages at least, keen to learn ... and lets face it, thanks to the low TPS, they've got LOTS to learn!

BA

Fire 'n' Forget

24th Feb 2005, 21:41

IDRO,RO,IDO...blah, blah it dont matter what they were called. It took an SAC an hour to learn how to use Flightstrips, ADNS or FPDS depending on era. I remember sitting doing the 'westcoast rush' as a mere 'oik' no problem. Lets face it the IDO course is for ab initio's to learn about the Air defence enviroment, as most of the airmen could be taught how to do IDO as an 'on the job' specialisation. But then again thats why SNCO's avoid it like the plague.

SpotterFC

24th Feb 2005, 22:03

BA, Apologies for missing the point - you are right, very few used to go back.

FnF - not that SNCOs are going to be given much choice anymore if they want to get beyond Sgt - then again from what I hear neither are the JNCOs going to get much choice if the TE get their way. Interesting times ahead, since I agree that a percentage of TG12 airmen would have no difficulty with the IDO task at all, but a significant majority would. There is a whole world of difference between blindly putting As on Ps and actually doing the job properly, especially now - looks like TG12 finally get to put their money where their mouth is.

The SNCOs have already been dragged kicking and screaming back into the Ops Room where they belong, and what a revelation that's been. I freely admit the FC branch was the bringer of its own misfortune with respect to the employment of ASMs, but I'm afraid your compatriots' performance in training often gives the lie to any assertion that the SNCOs can do the job just as well (in some cases they can't even do an SNCOs job on the DLB!).

SACs sitting doing the IDO job was lazy SDs allowing lazy IDOs to get away with it (though I accept it was almost policy at one unit!).

Maple 01

24th Feb 2005, 22:55

As I understand it Spotter, historically the IDRO slot existed to soak up the surplus manpower left over from the Nimrod AEW fiasco - before my time of course, but before that wasn't the IDRO's role a senior Cpl's/Sgt's slot? (but by another name) standing-by to be corrected on that.

I agree that a percentage of TG12 airmen would have no difficulty with the IDO task at all.

Eee, in my time I've done tanker joins and Deltas with F-4s when my controller has been too drunk/sleepy/forgotten to turn up - as well as a bit of IDROing, wouldn't happen now of course!;)

TG12? We can do bloody anything!
:ok:

tablet_eraser

24th Feb 2005, 23:36

FnF - SNCOs avoid it like the plague? We currently have 2 u/t SNCOs that I'm aware of, being trained by SFC staff who include three qualified SNCO IDOs, one of whom I regard as the best IDO in the Service. Those 2 u/t SNCOs represent a third of the current SFC surveillance training output, which is more than I can remember previously. I know that a lot of TG12 could do the IDO's job. I also know that a lot of WCs would be unable to - not just my opinion, but the opinion of WCs who've seen how hard IDOs actually have to work during busy periods.

For posterity, I would NEVER be able to do a WC's job - I just don't have the knack for it, in any way, shape, or form.

The whole RO01 etc thing came about, so far as I can tell, because the ICCS roles were ALL two-letter bigraphs with a number - DC01, FA01, TP01... when was the last time SDs were known as TPOs in the UK? Amusingly, UCCS retains the SAM allocator role, even though this became obsolete when we ditched Bloodhound before I even joined!

Spotter, I certainly know who you are... I'll keep you guessing for now, though. Only clue is that I do know rather a bit about ARIP.

As for UCCS totes... easy to crash, and I manage it every night shift. Which is more than a little bit annoying, but at least you just need to click START and select the correct programme. With ICCS you needed to get a techie up to reboot the console, then spend the requisite 2 minutes setting the damn thing up again.... then wait for the MC to start listening in. That was always guaranteed to crash his console! I remember a certain MC, who we shall call Sam, who managed this almost every time I was in the Ops Room!

Two things I miss about ICCS - the EDDIE, which (although painfully slow) was logical and easier to read than the current system, and the ability to brighten certain tracks.

Oh, and sunbathing in front of yellow Ps instead of orange ones...!

God. I'm an ICCS lampswinger. One day some poor stude will look at me the same way when I mention ICCS as I look at people now who mention LINESMAN...

SpotterFC

25th Feb 2005, 07:12

Maple01

You are probably correct about why the IDRO was born, but I think you also have to admit that the job is now a little more difficult than it was in the early 80's. Traffic has increased immensely and we can no longer rely on a tripwire sort of situation as the lumbering Bears (or rather quicker Blackjacks) come around the Cape. Now the threat comes from God knows where.

Personally I'm all for SNCOs (and even JNCOs if the new idea comes off) doing the job if they are capable of doing so to the required standard. My point was that whilst there are a fair proportion of TG12 that could, there are also those who could not. Blithely stating that the job is a breeze and any old SAC can do it is incorrect, as TE has pointed out.

I also don't want to give the impression that none of the SNCOs currently in the Ops Room are any good. TE correctly points out that there are many who are superb at what they do, and thus don't attract attention!

BTW FnF. Don't you think Oik is a terribly derogatory way of referring to the troops? Bit WW1 I think.

Maple 01

25th Feb 2005, 08:42

Yes Spotter, I agree, the whole AD thing is very much more complicated than it was back in the mists of time, which is why everyone is hugely more professional - I freely accept that the old 'monkey see monkey do' approach to training for us TG12 types, for example, was potentially dangerous and have even admitted Controllers and Reporters are quite bright! What is the world coming too? I’ll be nice about Air Trafficers next……..well, maybe not……;)

Pontius Navigator

25th Feb 2005, 11:30

There were IDROs around before the Nimwacs. Used to see them scurrying around in the dark or badgering them trying to get a classification out of them inside the required 2 minutes.

"New Track 601, MAMP11, strength one, south, fast, 02"

Minute later

"Track 601, MAMP10, 180, 500, Angels decimal 5, strength one, Forger - request classification"

Roger Wait.

They NEVER got their heads around how the Shack had both height and aircraft type AND they NEVER asked. Probably didn't want to give us the satisfaction :)

trap one

25th Feb 2005, 17:12

PN/Maple01
If I remember rightly the IDRO?RO?IDO post came out before the Nimwacs as the early guys came off the Shackle Bomber to get famil/Quals for working with kit that had more radar coverage/Links ETC. As the same time as we were adopting an approach to equal the jobs across NATO. Cause the rest of the NATO nations usually had Officers doing the job, we were going to have the same. Gawd knows who got promoted off that Idea. Prior to that it was known as DCA as in Display Controller's Assistant. The DC was usually a FL/SGT and the DCA a Cpl during days. But once the flying finished and the trip wire of the noggies came into operation it usually was an SAC. Still I do remeber a pair of Bears pitching up over a JMC at L/L at Oh God its early without being picked up by anyone else, and having to get the DC/DCA in a rush along with the rest of the Q Shift.

Trap One