Crewroom Job Banter Question

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Hello all,

Come help us end a crewroom argument that seems to crop up whenever the weather's a bit pap and we're sick of the sim, programming, serviceability, streaming, holding, etc etc.

Whenever this happens, a couple of chaps round here at the RAF's favourite FJ training base talk about "jumping ship to airlines." I'm pretty sure the airline job market's got very little time for guys like us, but in the interests of curiosity, what use could we be?

Most here are around 300-350hrs TT through RAF training, the last 100 on Hawks with a white single-engine jet IR.

Would an airline look twice, or should the doomsayers be browsing PWC and Accenture's recruitment websites on black flag days rather than filling out airline applications? ;)

I like it here so don't mind, but would love to have some proper knowlegde to throw in next time someone moans about their job here :)

[Dusty_B]

Stick around.

Military flying - particularly FJ is looked upon favourably. But it's pointless leaving with hours that low. You'll still need to spend a small fortune on a CPL/MEP/IR, and then you'll still only have about 400-425 hours. The big target you need to reach is 1500hrs, the minimum number of hours for a full ATPL.

More experience. Paid for. You know it makes sense.

Dusty. 350hrs TT. (100hrs EFT) No job!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I fully intend to stick around, but some mates seem to waver :)

Whenever they get hacked off here, they start talking about how they might "just give Virgin a call" or some equally well-researched tosh. There are some who believe that you could just walk into training with a major airline with what we've got; and I wish they knew the truth!

There's always some "but my mate" story of someone with a fATPL getting an easy job....

[MackMeeter]

You'd be mad to leave now.

I'd have given my first born male child to the devil if it could have got me to where you lot are.

Remind the crew room whiners just how lucky they are having Her Maj pay for all of their flying and having a bloody good time to boot. The civil world isn't as warm and fluffy (Ok granted we don't get shot at, well almost all of us). Just look at other posts of blokes being in 100+k debt and still looking for work, there are some scary stories of what some civvy guys have, and still are, going through.

I'll stop spitting venom now, sorry.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

None of them seem to have noticed that no-one in our line of work is walking into an airline job these days. The last few guys we saw go to airlines were all ex-multis guys with the requisite experience.

As inflated as your average Hawk student's ego gets, I wouldn't employ us over one of the many 1000hrs plus guys out there, most of which has been on multi engine multi crew jets....!

[FFP]

Giving Virgin a ring . . .. . . . .

Guys on 125's with 2400 hrs are being told " Come back when you have 2500 hrs"

FNT on 208 Vs 2400 hrs ?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

My thoughts precisely :)

[headyheights]

5 Forward 6 back.

I don't know too much about RAF life but I have a big brother who did the airforce thing, lots of mates there and a mate that has just left Valley to go the Canada. I myself went the civvy route.

Unfortunately for you guys the RAF guys have to meet the same requirements as anyone else. I know what you mean as I also know alot of RAF guys that talk about jumping ship to virgin, BA etc etc.

You guys have a good training and that is noted in the civvy world for sure. But the thing is airlines like lots of hours for a start - the more the better and preferably Jet/Turbine time. They will require your hours to be multi engine and multi crew. On top of this your mates will need to spend 1-3 years training and £40K+to obtain a frozen ATPL. When you are in the airforce you don't have a pilots qualification, so you will need to obtain a recognised civilian licence under your belt. The more airforce hours you have though will mean that there will be less to do to obtain a fATPL.

I would hazard a guess that your friends have heard of the big salaries, nice lifestyles etc in virgin, ba but they need to realise that they will need thousands of hrs to apply there. Basically veteran professionals a long way through their career.

I would say stay where you are, get loads of descent hrs, have a good time, then when you do go into civvy street you will be that little bit higher up the tree.

[timzsta]

If I remember rightly from the BALPA conference Virgin's requirements were 3500hrs just for them to even bother reading your CV. And those 3500hrs preferably on large jet with EFIS. Military pilots with that number of hours would be considered though.

Chief Pilot at Virgin came accross as a top bloke and kind off stole the show at the end with his witty and upbeat presentation.

With 300 hrs you might just be lucky enough to get a FO job with a small regional flying turboprops earning significantly less then your present RAF salary and you have to go flying regardless of the weather generally.

If I were you mate I would stick with your nice salary, housing provided, no debt military life style. I know all about both worlds having been in the dark blue uniform for 6 years. Get as many hours from the RAF as you can and as you near the time to leave push for some big jet/multi crew time on the Tristar or Galaxy.

Then and only then, will Virgin be interested in you.

[Maude Charlee]

There are plenty of FJ guys in the airlines, however, most are there after having built up a number of years' worth of operational flying rather than a few hundred training hours.

Lots of guys leave the forces every year for the airlines, and most of them earn considerably higher salaries when they do. However, PAM is no longer subsidising their living costs, nor do they have the degree of job security had they stayed in.

When times are good, they look like the cat who got the cream, but when it all goes tits up (and it does on a regular basis), they are generally left kicking themselves hard and not looking quite so smug and self-satisfied.

If they really want to do it, wait until they have the requisite experience to bypass all the JAR licencing nonsense and save a bloody fortune in the meantime. No point adding to all that FJ debt having p***ed all your pay away on electrical goods, flash cars, loose women and beer.

;)

[scroggs]

You and your friends are little or no use to an airline as you stand. Your hours are low and you don't have any convertible qualifications. To even qualify to apply for a job with a bottom-of-the-pool commercial operator, you would need to take the ATPL ground examinations, carry out the CPL/IR flying course and skill tests, undergo an MCC course, and probably do so kind of LOFT course. Then you'd probably have to pay for the type rating and line training. Your Grob/Tucano/Hawk hours would effectively count for little more than air experience; in other words you are well below the 200-hour fATPL graduate in the pecking order. So you'd have to start from scratch - and pay for the privilege.

Ring Virgin? Get 3000 hours on relevant aircraft types (or fast jets) and the appropriate licences and courses, then you might qualify to apply to us. At the moment, we employ very few with less than 5000 hours and those are mainly on A340/330/320s.

My advice to your mates is to stay where they are, make the best of things (and there is a great deal to be made of military flying) and get the hours and licences under their belts. In time - probably 6 or 7 years down the line - they will have acquired sufficient aviation credibility to offer their services to the civilian world with the reasonable expectation of being given due credit for their experience. Right now, they're not worth a damn to the airlines.

Scroggs

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Thank you all.

I promise this isn't me "asking for a mate," this is genuinely what a lot of low-houred Hawk studes think.

It's just nice to have some proper, horses-mouth chat to fling at them next time they pipe up in the crewroom about how they'd "definately just go to the airlines if they got chopped."

Recruiting's picking up, apparently ;)

[FFP]

If your mil, it's actually not too expensive to get yourself an ATPL (fATPL if hrs dictate)

Class 1 med, can be done at certain med centre's, for less than at Gatwick.

ELC's used for Groundschool (80 % paid) so only the exams to pay for.

Skills / IR on the jet ( Need to be on 10's , Tri * etc ) Cost about £670.

MCC exempt if completed a ME OCU.

Obligitary fee to CAA.

I reckon about £1750 all in.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Not much help to the young thrusting Hawk blades who're doing the moaning, but ta for the info :)