The s**t has really hit the fan!

[Backontrack]

Hi, not posted for a while, been happily observing in the wings. However, 'life spins on a penny' an all that.

I'm one of the many low houred guys, 35yrs old, 300TT, passed IR last May, been looking for work etc etc. Had to go back to work in the field I knew before, Finance, boring, however, out of the blue this contract ended yesterday and I'm back on my a**e again.

Like others I'm in debt already, have a partner, she works, have a large mortgage, getting married in April, all planned....not paid for! What to do....? I hate the line of work I've been in, yep it pays the bills, but my soul was destroyed long ago by the mundanity of it.

Gut reaction is to turn the experience into a positive and throw more money at aviation (more debt that is). The only thing I have left, which by rights is my partners as well, is an endowment policy that runs alongside my mortgage. There is enough in it for an instructors rating. So, the choices are, find another job that saps your soul or do the instructor rating, now, instruct for the summer, hopefully get 500ish hours and push my CV slightly up the pile.

I know the risks and I know the reality of the attractiveness of single engine time to the airlines, but frankly I don't know what else to do, I've thrown £50k at this already, I can't just stop.

Your views and comments appreciated (constructive ones of course!)

Ta

[Re-Heat]

Don't even think about chucking away the policy. It may seem harsh but I would question any judgement you made if you did that with no other savings or sources of income.

[wobblyprop]

If you've thrown 50K at it already + the morgage + the wedding. Will you ever be in a financial situation to pay it all back? Taking the account of a ryanair FO he earn rougly £17K in his first year. Turbo prop might get you 20K in the first year.

Your partner works now, but what if you have children. That source of income will dry up, what happens to the morgage?

The next question you have to ask yourself is "how much am I preapred to throw at it?". 30K for the type rating (factoring the accommadation, will that get me a job?

Sorry not a very positive outlook

[POL.777]

What can I say? I am in the same situation, bought a integrated education, and what do you know - the airlines don't really care about my wet certificate. So I bought a b737 rating, brought my debt just over €110K, and still no job. However I am still optimistic. There has got to be an opening this summer.... (or thats what my bank says :-) )

[MackMeeter]

Good God man! Don't do it!!

Like previous responses, this isn't an encouraging one I'm afraid. I was in a similar situation to yours last year: 31yrs old, part-time instructor (coz Lord knows it'll never pay a living), applying for jobs for 2 and a half years with more knock backs than you can shake a stick at. Then I got a phone call out of the blue and I got my first job.

My point is that no matter how hopeless the situation with jobs seems to be, it isn't worth getting into even more debt over, especially with your wedding coming up. I'm afraid you have to bite the bullit and keep at the applying/networking etc whilst still earning some pennies else where, then think about the destructor ticket with some cash behind you. My mate (a very well qualified helo instructor) was flipping burgers in a bowling alley not so long a go to feed his family and now earns stacks for Bristows.

Do anything, even if you despise it with all you are worth - I did that for 4 years but it kept me away from the bailiffs. It will happen if you want it enough, hold your nerve matey.

Good luck MM :ok:

[jamestkirk]

Hello guys

You've all made me a bit emotional.

It could be that i have been doing a bit of acting lately and still in 'the method'.

Or, more likely, it is to do with the fact that you all sound EXACTLY LIKE ME. 33 years old, 400tt. Lokking for work for 6 months. In debt. No normal job prospects.

Tell me, why do recruitment agencies phone you up, give you all the pretentious, annoying and irritatingly over friendly patter about "we are relly interested in you for x position". Then never call you back. I suppose it's poetic justice as my CV has 'a break' from my previous career (to do the atpl) listed as 1. finding myself 2. cat culling (i hate cats) 3. spritual leader of eastbourne based cult 4. training as a pilot, but they never believe that one.

I hope you all get lucky soon (if you know what i mean).

JTK

[Flying Mushroom]

Backontrack

Check yor PMs

[Avadoo]

B on T,

sorry to hear about contract , will give you a bell tomorrow to run
a couple of ideas - proven, positive ones of course!

DW

[Mosspigs]

B on T

Wobbly times for most. Take heart in the market picking up. It truly is. The signs are out there, the time will come and more importantly you sound like you have the gumption to get off your butt and get something that is right for you.

You'll do it, maybe not tomorrow but it won't be long. Hang in there but get you soon - to - be wifes support. Fighting the battle together is much easier.

Good luck and stay positive.

[tonker]

Get the instructors rating and get on with it. Sure it's crap money and the conditions are sometimes just as ropey but you are learning, gaining experience and are finally on the first albeit small rung of the ladder.

I'm financaily crippled and can't even get a contract mobile, but i'm living my life as i demand and hopefully do a good job for my students. Thats a feeling all the cash in the world couldn't replace.

It's a good time for an FI rating if you move now as the summer beckons, but be under no illusion that most FI jobs pay very little.

PM me for any info on work jobs etc

Good luck

Regards Tonker

ps i would rather be in my situation now than 70 years old looking back thinking if only i had done this
etc. sod the bank hurrahhh

[UAU242]

Backontrack

going slightly off the point here, but i did a degree in finance and i'm planning to find a job to save up for my own training. I was just wondering how long you reckon it will take to save up.

Also, this might sound like a daft question, but a work placement in insurance as opposed to a diving instructor would be better for that finance job would it?

[Bluebaron]

Be careful about doing an FI rating. It will cost you 5-6000 and with little expericence jobs are few and far between.

Why not give a few schools a ring to see if they need instructors this season.

It took me 5 years from passing my IR to climbing into my first Jet, (2 years instructing and 2000 TT).

Its very soul destroying but you have to keep the pressure up in applications and phone calls. A good tip is to try and build a repore(?) with people in admin and always stay polite and cheery on the phone.

BB :ok:

[Backontrack]

Thanks to you all for your views.... mixed feedback indeed. Well, call me mad, I'm starting my FIR next week and more to the point I'm excited about it as well!

I feel in a strange way that I'm back in control....money will sort itself out over time. I've got more support from my wife to be than you could shake a stick at and my family is right behind me as well....not with money I hasten to add.

No job is secure....my partner has been through two redundancies in two years and I have now been shafted by my current employer so, what's new about being out of control. At least i know I'll enjoy the next few months.

I'll post following the FIR course and let you all know how it goes.

cheers:O

[Mister Geezer]

Before getting a FI rating then do your homework and scout around for jobs. I was lucky when I did my FI rating and walked straight into a job straight after my course. At the end of the day having the FI rating improved my 'employability' for the airlines and speaking from the other side of the fence now, I still instruct on days off. The FI rating will improve your flying, CRM for later in life, and general people skills. All things that an airline wants! Also it gives you something that you can fall back on if another disaster comes along and airlines make redundancies! :(

For later down the road, it also makes the path for becoming a TRI and TRE that bit easier.

[blondosprey]

Please think of your partner in this, putting yourself through all this stress and money worries will be carried by her too. DONT TOUCH THE HOUSE!!! I am in your situation with low hours and low prospects and lots of rejections - but you have to draw a line somewhere, where that line lies can only be your decision.
Enjoy the wedding and honeymoon and then worry about it, because if my husband had been distracted in the run up to our wedding I would have skinned him alive, it will mean so much to her. It may be hard but life must come first, as when flying is gone thats all thats left to keep you going.
The only thing to make you feel better, is there are so many people in your situation.

[Gearupandorrf]

Hi Backontrack,
Your situation is exactly the scenario that I was mentally grappling with a little while ago.

I'm now 31, fATPL 300hrs TT, MCC etc. and have experiened all of the same problems as many of us in terms of getting THE job.

Also, my Wife and I have put a lot on the line in terms of just getting to where we are now.

Let me fill you in.
We moved here from Australia to follow my dream, and in doing so left behind secure jobs, a comfortable financial situation, a great way of life, our friends, our families- to venture into the unknown and convert my Aussie License to a JAR one, and to try and make a new (even if temporary) life on the other side of the World. It has been the best and worst time of my life.

Back home though, our financial situation allowed us to save enough money so that fortunately, we don't have any debts from my Training. However, the saving did take about five years, and when I add up the funds that have gone into the training (I had to do the full approved flying/ theory courses as I have low hours)- I realise that we would be well set up financially if we had used these funds differently.

Which brings me to my main point.
There is so much more to life than flying for a living.
When I was in my teens and twenties, I used to look at Commercial Flying through rose- coloured glasses and think to myself "I'd be happy for the rest of my life if I could fly a Boeing everyday". However- some years of maturing (and the issues that my Wife and I have jointly tackled in the process of setting up a life here)- have shown me that there is so much more in life to enjoy.

Yes, I still have a desire to fly. Yes, we have jointly made big sacrifices and made big risks to be here but I will NOT put at risk our long- term financial well being. We have poured money into the dream, and I am being proactive in finding ways of building up hours so that I may be more attractive to the Airlines. These avenues though, will not require any significant funds out of my own pocket. For instance, it looks like I may have secured some meatbombing work for the weekends over Summer. All that I've been asked is to fund 150 Pounds towards my 10 hours of being checked in their C206, and that 150 Pounds should give me a return of at least a couple of hundred hours before the end of the year. If you are chasing hours, why not consider this route or Glider Towing- instead of splashing out another 6 grand when it could be reducing your existing debt?

Personally, if for some reason the meatbombing work doesn't eventuate, I will pay to keep my Medical and IR current- but after that enough is enough. I have the minimum required to be employed by an Airline, and refuse to consider something like buying a Type Rating UNLESS I had a signed Contract to be employed after completion. Also, I would not enter into such an arrangement unless I was on at least 30 grand a year. Look at the figures for such arrangements with some Airlines, ie: Emerald. You pay 13 Grand on a Type Rating for the return of an annual salary of 16- 17 Grand (and no commitment to a job after). Simply ludicrous!!!!!!! If you can afford to lose the cash, then go for it- it may work out, it may not. If that cash is needed to service your existing debts- DON'T DO IT! The same applies to the 6 grand that you are contemplating borrowing.

As I said, there is life outside of flying. You have your new Wife to think of. Depending on age, starting a family might become an important issue which really throws the financial Cat amongst the Pidgeons. Remember- your Wife has dreams too. I say this from my own situation- my Wife is 35 in March and we've put the idea of Kids on hold for years in order to follow my dream. Being 35 soon, my Wife doesn't have all of the biological time in the World, and I feel very fortunate that I don't have a huge debt to repay as well as considering kids.

Which brings me to another important point:
I've set myself a deadline by which time, if there are no firm real job prospects in the pipeline by about the end of next year, we will go home and look at other things to do. The rest of our lives can't be put on hold forever. Maybe you need to consider this sort of principle in terms of your time and money. The reason why I've chosen the end of next year is because by this time we will have recouped the funds that we put into coming here. I'm also fortunate in that the Company that I work with at Manchester Airport also has an operation at home in Melbourne- so it will be very easy for me to go home to a job. If it doesn't work out for us over here, we can very easily pick up where we left off. Although you find your current line of Work "soul destroying", it's also important to remember that it gives you and your family the means to live your lives- and to service your existing debt.

I know I sound like I'm going on about money a lot- but at the end of the day this is what your thread is about. The comfort and standard of living that my Wife and I get to enjoy now (and in the future with a Family), is extremely important to me. Also important is building long- term wealth, because when you and me get around to retiring, you'd better have your own means of funding life after Work because the Government certainly won't be. In Australia, we became accutely aware of this 10 years ago, but here in the UK far fewer people seem to realise this. The western world has a rapidly ageing popuation, and the demographics of society will swing leaving Welfare systems unable to cope. The earlier in life people realise, the easier it is to put yourself in a position to overcome this.

I guess to sum up;
1. Keep the big picture in terms of life. You owe that to your family.
2. That debt will still have to be paid LONG after the gloss of flying a jet everyday has faded.
3. DON'T GO ANOTHER 6 GRAND INTO DEBT!!!!!

All the best mate- let me know how you go.

Best Regards,
Gearup.