Do the Forces recruit the wrong Aircrew!

[Mr Pink]

Hi people,

I always dreamed about becoming an RAF pilot, however it didn't happen! Life goes on.

Since joining this forum I have noticed that there are many pilots wanting to leave the forces and train for civvy street. Why?

Ok we all know in the early 90s the RAF caught wind of the fact that many people were using the forces to gain pilot experience an then leave to join airlines. They responded to this by lowering the max age for pilots and offering an in service degree, focusing on school leavers.
Even so miltary pilots still seem to quickly fulfil their military career and train for airlines.

What are your views?

[aces low]

I am not an RAF pilot, but I do know many. They mostly want to leave because they are being sent to middle east for three months at a time, away from their families. As the RAF gets smaller and its commitments get broader, crews are being stretched further. Living in a tent in the desert and being mortared occasionally loses its appeal...even if you are being paid to fly.

As guys/girls get older and have families and settled lifestyles, trudging around the UK becomes less attractive than it would be to a 21 year old single person. So they leave. It is nature's way!

[FFP]

Concur with aces low. That's the main push factor at the moment. It may be ok to do that for a while, but if your looking for a full career, to still be doing that up to 55 (and be with the same wife !!!) is not a prospect people relish.

All those I work with do the job to the best of their abilities and with the upmost professionalism, and don't regret the time they had in. But the sad fact is that you have to look after yourself these days at some point.

[scroggs]

I think you're combining your knowledge of a few posts you've seen in this forum and some assumptions you make about the RAF, and have come to a conclusion that bears little study. If you really want an answer to this question, ask it in the Military Aircrew forum - where I suspect you'll find the answer stated somewhat forcibly.

In fact, as this topic has nothing of relevance to Wannabes, I'll move it to Mil Aircrew where the current RAF professionals can deal with your question as they see fit...

Scroggs

[Icarusthesecond]

No because they didn't recruit you.:ok:

[PPRuNeUser0172]

For someone who claims to have been in the UAS, have you not seen with your own eyes why people SOME people leave to the airlines. It is hardly as if everyone leaves, and there are a number of reasons why people do. Lifestyle, family considerations, fed up of going to war, career prospects.......the list is endless. Also, the airline recruiting arena is a like a sine wave with peaks and troughs every couple of years it seems so naturally, when there is a demand for highly qualified, well trained individauls in civvy street, that is going to attract a proportion of mid 30's guys and gals who have had enough of the military for whatever reason.

In answer to your question, do Forces recruit the wrong aircrew, NO! they dont. You sign up for at least 12 years, which you wouldnt find many other professions demanding and not surprisingly, at the end of this period, some people choose to go elsewhere.

Maybe you are just a little bitter they didnt choose you............

[Tanewha]

I think it a case (sometimes) of the grass being greener. However, I have no intention of staying to my 38 let alone 55 point. People change and so does the RAF.

[joe2812]

Am I the only one not getting the question?

The 'wrong' aircrew? What do you mean by 'wrong'? Wrong attitude? Lack of staying power and commitment?

If that's the case i'd say no. Judging by the guys on here and those I know.

Did it occur to you that maybe people just fancy a change after 20 or so years of the same thing? As someone who hasn't done it, it seems fair enough to assume once you'd get in you'd do it forever, but evetually I expect it becomes routine, and everyone gets bored of routine eventually.

The Forces still take the best, and they always will IMHO...(just hope i'm up to it, if not, i've just talked myself down! :bored: )

[Mr Pink]

Please understand, In no way am I implying that the forces do recruit the wrong aircrew, thats just a title for discussion. I want to know why pilots leave so early to attempt to gain employment in such an risky industry.

Icarusthesecond

I gained a pilot commission in 1998, but changed my mind and turned it down to gain my degree.

Dirty Sanchez

Yes I know why people leave but the forces but I know of a few who have gained their RAF wings and because they have been grounded for a while due to cutbacks or other officer commitments they want to leave and train commercial! Surely thats not the planned RAF recruitment strategy!

Quite right I was bitter when they turned me down following graduation from uni. Thought that was in the bag after the first time.

P.S. Scroggs the wannabe moderator has put this topic in the military forum, think for some reason he doesn't like the colour pink!

[X-QUORK]

Mr Pink,

I'd like to hazard a guess that the RAF were reluctant to re-employ you because YOU had turned down the Queen's Commission after they'd invested a considerable amount of tax-payer's hard-earned on your training. To be quite honest, I would think hard about taking you on in any form of employment knowing that you'd done that, let alone flying very expensive bits of hardware around.

I'm sure you had your reasons for going back to Uni, but to be bitter about being refused back into the mob demonstrates a lack of maturity IMHO.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Pinky

You are over simplifying the problem.....if it can be called a problem. The RAF has no shortage of applicants, high quality ones so getting the right people for the job is no problem. Just because you have your wings, doenst mean you have to give the rest of your life to the Queen, and if your circumstances change which they invariably do then you leave, get promoted stay on as a professional aviator.....etc. This is good for the service as it means it doesnt end up 'top heavy'.

On the other hand, maybe the answer to your original question should actually be 'yes' as there will always be people like you who waste a slot who someone a lot keener could have benfitted from. Well done for achieving it, but dont have the audacity to turn round and say that the RAF takes on the wrong aircrew when you are living proof that those who arent 110% committed wont make it.

DS

[MAD Boom]

Topic title: Do the Forces recruit the wrong Aircrew?

Er, no, 'cos they chose me and my mate Al and we're great.

Do shut up.

[JimNich]

Topic title: Do the Forces recruit the wrong Aircrew?

Er, yeah, 'cos they chose me and my mates from the Circle K and we were so rubbish we were ace. Wasted s***tloads of tax payers money (thankyou V much joe public), our captain was completely barking but generally we had a hoot travelling the globe drinking to excess and committing such outrageous acts of felony that we're very lucky not to all still be incarcerated ( better luck next time PC Enderby ).

'Course The Mob wouldn't put up with it these days.

And THAT'S why people are leaving. If you want people to work hard you've got to let them play hard and take the flak when the press has a slow news day and columns to fill.

Do keep on Pink. One day someone'll give you a straight answer but not today!

:D

[zorrotfb]

I'm not forces aircrew but if I'm allowed to comment I would say no, in the main they get the right guys/gals. However I would also say they reject some good folks as well, no selection process is infallible.

One thing I fail to comprehend though given the fact I would would drag my cajones over broken glass to exchange places with them is when they whinge/moan/gripe/beef/insertsynonymhere about their Ts & Cs or service life in general.

OK flameproof suit at hand ;) just a pity it wasn't green with badges and a pen holder.

[BEagle]

And were you to be Service aircrew, you too would soon be whingeing, moaning, griping, beefing, (insert synonym here)-ing about your Ts & Cs and service life in general.......

The grass is rarely greener, certainly not NATO greener; it is depressingly often desert pink.

[scroggs]

Mr Pink wrote:
P.S. Scroggs the wannabe moderator has put this topic in the military forum, think for some reason he doesn't like the colour pink!

No, Mr Pink, I put this topic here because the inhabitants of Wannabes are not qualified to answer or discuss the question. If you want to know about the factors that determine the way military pilots make life decisions, and the kind of people that the military recruit, you don't ask a population of sub-200 hour C152 pilots who have no military experience.

Scroggs

[teeteringhead]

They responded to this by lowering the max age for pilots Not in the 90s they didn't Pinky ...

I joined in the 60s (just!) and it ain't changed since then. And there were shedloads of pilots then, and lotsa of places to train them.

[Cranwell for posh people like BEags, and elsewhere for "grammar school oiks" like me:( ]

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Zorro

Like you said you are not mil aircrew so no one really gives a sh!t what you think about this subject as you are quite clearly not qualified to comment. If you dont have to live by the T's & C's to which you refer then what business is it of yours? Just curious....

Thanks anyway old bean;)

[Axel-Flo]

De-cork bottle of 1996 St Emillion, allow to breath, and......Going slightly outside the topic...though not much, how about this for a thought. After the last FRIs it was suggested that the intent should be to keep aircrew in the Mil to the 38/16 point to extract maximum service value for cost/training returns.
Now accepting all the reasons for departure to pastures greener or otherwise, previously posted, the largest exit prior to 16/38 is from the group 2 world, not a surprise since at the earliest point option or otherwise they have the best skill set to sell to another employer. Notwithstanding that having had the quality of life, training, accomodation, allowances etc there really is little that HMGovt can offer to keep these guys/gals in. (accept perfectly that in the last few years truckies have been slumming it in Basra etc though (stand fast the Herc crews) not for such protracted periods of time it must be said.
With that in mind then, as group 1 and 3 mates deploy more for longer in thier younger thrusting days it could be argued that as they hit thier 30's settle down have a family etc...to change the circumstances they live and operate in would not be so difficult. A slide into the Gp2 world for a MEXO, Ocu then a full co and Captain tour keeping them in service to age 38/16 yr point allowing them to leave then liscensed up and not slagging off the Ministry for ever more.
Many problems with that as a plan i have no doubt, but of course you would still have those who wish to stay in the respective groups for a full career or even just to carry on in that role till they leave.
Not detracting from or having a dig at anyone but you so rarely find anyone in the Gp 2 world crossing to groups 1 and 3 for a better deal (there are some i know...) On the whole then as to wether pilots are selected well for service it's the training chop rate that would best indicate that from a purely selection factor once our pilots are trained keeping them is a very different matter.:suspect:

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

These days, being a pilot in the RAF is just a job. As in any other job, you can leave as you wish under the terms of your commission. There seems to be an assumption that guys leaving at an option/SSC exit date are runing away, or "cheating" the RAF in some way. They write the rules, and we use them as we see fit.

[Mr Pink]

Thanks for your your comments, most are positive. Ok I admit the post title could be better,sounds a little harsh for which I apologise.

DS,

Please read my response on the 18th Fe 2002. 'I wasn't implying the military aircrew 'etc etc

Scroggs,

I appreciate what your trying to say, but please look at the responses I got from that forum! The one in particular from a very experienced military pilot and there are a few on there. One could argue why you let him respond like he did being an experienced pilot, when you quite clearly explain at the beginning of the forum that its for inexperienced pilots only!

Please, this is a forum after all, where I would like to think one can post an opinion. I admire military pilots and appreciate the job they do, but wasn't sure why people wanted to leave so quickly! I had my own ideas obviously from my experience but there are many more stories which I would like to hear! Hence the reason for a forum.

[FFP]

"Very Experienced Military Pilot"

Obviously refering to me there . . .. . . :E

[soddim]

The originator asked ‘Do the Forces recruit the wrong Aircrew’. It’s a fair question and deserves a considered answer whatever forum it is in. If the forces are recruiting fast jet pilots who leave to fly airlines at the earliest opportunity then the answer is probably yes. Nobody motivated to fly fast jets should be so keen to get into the airlines at an early age but it might just be that the forces are not maintaining or satisfying that motivation.

I have always believed that the RAF took the wrong route in recruiting when they looked to the output of left wing professors instead of direct or RAF College trained entrants. When I trained we joined the new degree entrants with their accelerated promotion to Flt Lt at Advanced Flying Training and guess which group got most of the fighter postings. Degrees in Archaeology and History were not much help in applied flying but motivation was vital. Guess which group (in the main) left at the earliest opportunity? That degree proved more useful in civilian life.

Many years later I enjoyed instructing air cadets in gliders and it was incredibly satisfying to send well-motivated 16-year olds solo and to see the sense of pride and satisfaction they gained. Many of them did what I did before I joined and went to considerable lengths to get their flying in – any kind of flying was worth making the effort for. I would have loved to see the RAF recruiting those people instead of the short-service aircrew I was stuck with as a fast jet flight commander. Although some of the latter had the right motivation and were persuaded to stay most left at the earliest opportunity to join the airlines and we were always short of experienced middle-echelon aircrew.

Nowadays there are other reasons for leaving and I can’t blame lack of motivation for the current desire to abandon the sinking ship but I often wonder what I would have done in today’s air force. I reckon if I was flying anything that could reach 30 grand in less than 2 minutes and sustain 6G at 450kts indicated or less I would be loath to give it up for something as boring as an airliner. However, I can think of many people I worked for who might just drive me to it!

[jayteeto]

Not the first time I have said this. I did 24 years in the RAF, 18 as a heli pilot. My main motivation for leaving was Tony Blair, I didn't trust him with my life. If people leave at exit points, they have fulfilled their contract IN FULL. Never criticize someone who leaves at an option, if any blame is required, then blame the system for giving that option.

[scroggs]

Pink, you received two replies (plus mine) in wannabes; one from a civilian FI, and one from FFP who gives no clue as to his experience, other than that he is military. Discussions of factors affecting military pilots' lifestyles beloneg here in Mil Aircrew, not in Wannabes, which is why I moved it. As you can see for yourself, you have been answered by many valid opinions from those who are in a position to hold them. Wannabes are not in that position, nor was the subject appropriate to that forum.

Scroggs

[PPRuNeUser0172]

ga99

Why is it being vindictive??? Surely the moderators job is to ensure that forum is run efficiently with appropriate posts in the right place for (hopefully) the correct response. I am not saying that it is inappropriate in the Wannabees forum, but why would they be interested/and/or able to comment.

Scroggs never claimed it was offensive, rather ill placed. Personally I would have thought that common sense on the part of the original poster would have solved that one...................;)

[oo ah cantona]

Is it just me, which it may well be, but the term "aircrew" doesn't simply apply to those with those with two wings on their chests!! Only jealous i suppose;) ;)

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Who said it did Mr Cantona? Although, such a random inject must be surely borne out of jealousy!

As has been beautifully iterated above, if someone leaves at an option, they have invairably sweated their pound of flesh for Queen and Country etc, and to have the question asked by some random wannabe who decided it wasnt for him is a little hard to swallow.

[Governormalfunction]

Mr Pink,

After reading all these threads, it's difficult who to know who to take any notice of......

If you are SNCO material then be an Army pilot, you will have learnt to make decisions by then,........

If you think you will need Granny to dress you, then get Mummy to sort you out and in the meantrime us blerks will do all the shaggin'

Sort yourself out.... you wanna fly??????

Strap a Lynx to your ass...

Night.

[SASless]

Fly a Lynx....errrrrr....ahhh....not old enough yet....only 56.